Picard thought the reputation of the Iconians might have been overblown by their contemporaries. He was always a bit of an idealist.
Available evidence indicates that Jean-Luc was wrong.
Heh, I thought he was wrong when I watched that episode the first time back when I was 15... No one would go to the amount of effort required to bomb a planet to ruin like that without a reason. Sure you can hypothesize that it wasn't a GOOD reason, but seriously? It takes BIG reason to do something like THAT.
What if Sela traveled back in time and was the one who destroyed Iconia in the first place?
I quite enjoyed this episode, once I got to the end.
During the start of the episode, I was a little apprehensive. Personally, I'm dead set against the use of the temporal weapon and I dislike that my character has no ability to say "this isn't how I want to do things, don't involve me".
When we decided to go ahead and use it based on the simulation which showed Romulus restored, I was very much sitting at my computer saying "I don't like this. I really don't like this." Then, when it all went to hell and the Borg had assimilated Romulus and, based on that happening 20 years ago relatively, probably most of the Alpha quadrant I actually let out a small celebratory "HA!".
By the end with the fact we were able to restore the timeline, more or less, I'm really hoping this weapon is no longer on the table as a 'solution' to the Iconian problem. However, I'm not sure how else I see this ending considering there is information stating we're only getting one more episode in the Iconian "War" arc.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
At the end, in the conference room, Nog and Tiaru hinted at using time travel.
I think the Alliance is done with the weapon. In this case, the risks greatly outweigh the potential gain.
The Krenim however... this was a perfect test for them. They may take the weapon and start messing around with it when they get an opening. Especially that Noye fellow. He had a very aggressive stance towards us the whole time, and now he is leading the team that will take a look at the shielded computer core's data.
I hope I'm wrong, but nonetheless, they should be monitored.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Clauda's species and outfit gave me a moment of déja vu and I ended up remembering a certain antagonistic species from ST: Enterprise specialist in building spheres.
Is this intentional and a hint to a pogo paradox between several timelines, or an accident like the slight ressemblance between the Dewans and the Elachi?
To add to this: In Las Vegas, it was stated that the next storyline (New Dawn) partially revolves around the fallout of the time manipulation tactics used during the Iconian War.
I guess the Sphere Builders will - somehow - play a major roll in this. Maybe Mirror Universe Sphere Builders or Sphere Builders from an alltogether different quantum universe.
By all that I hold Holy, please God no. Please no Sphere builders. Please no more temporal war TRIBBLE.
You can't escape Trek canon, no matter how much you dislike parts of it. Star Trek Online is going to use everything of it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I may be missing something - in fact, I suspect I am.... but we appear to erase the Borg transwarp network with the weapon..... if this is the case, Voyager can't have returned to Earth as soon as it did as there would be no transwarp hub for them to discover in 'Endgame'....
As I said, probably missing something though - I didn't manage to play this episode until midnight and was barely awake by the time I got to that part!
Yes, that part is not clear to me either. I think we may only destroy the particular part of it that is leading into Romulan territory. That could have been a new part of their network. (Considering there was definitely no physical hub there.)
But, considering that Romulus is destroyed (again) by that change... Seems like we still find Iconia and alert the Iconians too early? Does that mean the Yamato finds its way to Iconia another way? Or did the Yamato survive this time.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think they meant that particular transwarp gateway.
If they had targeted the entire network, and the Borg never figure out how to build them in the first place, that'd mean we'd have no gateways to destroy in Conduit and Khitomer queues.
Maybe the 2409 invasion plays out differently too without a gateway to "backdoor" Borg ships into Federation space.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Clauda's species and outfit gave me a moment of déja vu and I ended up remembering a certain antagonistic species from ST: Enterprise specialist in building spheres.
Is this intentional and a hint to a pogo paradox between several timelines, or an accident like the slight ressemblance between the Dewans and the Elachi?
She was quite obisously a Sphere Builder. The mention of them trying to adapt Solanae technology is a hint. I believe we created them. Something went wrong and they were sent to this transdimensional realm. It all makes sense. They want to come back to our space and since they can see different timelines they have seen that we were the cause of their problem. They want revenge.
Has no one thought about simply pointing the krenim weapon at the herald sphere and pushing the button?
No herald sphere no beach head to launch their invasion from
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Picard thought the reputation of the Iconians might have been overblown by their contemporaries. He was always a bit of an idealist.
Available evidence indicates that Jean-Luc was wrong.
Heh, I thought he was wrong when I watched that episode the first time back when I was 15... No one would go to the amount of effort required to bomb a planet to ruin like that without a reason. Sure you can hypothesize that it wasn't a GOOD reason, but seriously? It takes BIG reason to do something like THAT.
What if Sela traveled back in time and was the one who destroyed Iconia in the first place?
1. Some interesting concepts but the Vulcan Empire, there is no evidence in STAR TREK history that the Iconians had ANY involvement in Vulcan’s warp drive projects and they didn’t achieve warp drive until AFTER the time of awakening they were too busy killing each other!
The Klingon empire not uniting, that means Kahless failed to kill Molar but you (sto) said that they unified because of off world threats - WRONG!
The Hierarchy being the new puppets of the Iconians; at first glance plausible but their the ferngi of the delta quadrant and there is no profit in conquering
The Borg being brought into it they were there for the sake of having a fight – nothing more, which leads us to my second point
2. Time travel – mechanic seemingly NOT understood by the writer; since all three ships (the weapon ship, Lisette and the player ship) where outside the space time continuum NOTHING could hurt them, no BORG, no insect, no cold virus could hurt them, so NO space battle, NO ground battle they were OUTSIDE the space time continuum just like the Q
And that’s why until the temporal core was deactivated Anorrex and the crew on his ship weren’t touchable!!!
Overall boring filler episode, can you please research your story's elements before you publish them!
CVN-65 U.S.S. Enterprise - A ship so badass it survived John McCain.
1. Some interesting concepts but the Vulcan Empire, there is no evidence in STAR TREK history that the Iconians had ANY involvement in Vulcan’s warp drive projects and they didn’t achieve warp drive until AFTER the time of awakening they were too busy killing each other!
The Klingon empire not uniting, that means Kahless failed to kill Molar but you (sto) said that they unified because of off world threats - WRONG!
The Hierarchy being the new puppets of the Iconians; at first glance plausible but their the ferngi of the delta quadrant and there is no profit in conquering
The Borg being brought into it they were there for the sake of having a fight – nothing more, which leads us to my second point
2. Time travel – mechanic seemingly NOT understood by the writer; since all three ships (the weapon ship, Lisette and the player ship) where outside the space time continuum NOTHING could hurt them, no BORG, no insect, no cold virus could hurt them, so NO space battle, NO ground battle they were OUTSIDE the space time continuum just like the Q
And that’s why until the temporal core was deactivated Anorrex and the crew on his ship weren’t touchable!!!
Overall boring filler episode, can you please research your story's elements before you publish them!
The Talaxians are really the Ferengi of the Delta Quadrant, the Hierarchy are closer to Section 31. I agree on your points about the Vulcans and Klingons, though it being an alternate timeline its still plausible Vulcans could develop warp drive. As far as the Klingons in that timeline, Kahless could of failed and later they unified because of a world threat.
I actually really hate when writers wrap things up with time travel paradox's. To me, that is a lazy writing mechanic used to avoid fixing things. This includes things that end being all a dream -.-
You're right about the fact they would of been placed outside of time so the fight would of never happened. The Borg shouldn't of even been aware of their presence honestly..
2. Time travel – mechanic seemingly NOT understood by the writer; since all three ships (the weapon ship, Lisette and the player ship) where outside the space time continuum NOTHING could hurt them, no BORG, no insect, no cold virus could hurt them, so NO space battle, NO ground battle they were OUTSIDE the space time continuum just like the Q
And that’s why until the temporal core was deactivated Anorrex and the crew on his ship weren’t touchable!!!
While I agree the episode (like the whole Iconian War arc, to be honest, which is an embarrassment) could have been handled much much better, I have to partially disagree on that point about the temporal shielding. Weither or not it's a blunder, it's at least aknowledged in Broken Circle where Noye specifically mentions to Seven of Nine that they hadn't solved all the problems with the temporal shields, as well as the vessel itself.
And it shows in Butterfly because:
1/ The ship can only fire twice before having its capacitors fried and is much less resilient and advanced than Annorax's, where only Voyager ramming itself into it destroyed it, and it was only because the impact destabilized the temporal core and caused a temporal incursion, while barely scratching the ship itself
2/ The temporal shields are like every shields in ST history: freaking useless and prone to failing when the plot demands a conflict, and tprobably closer to Voyager's own temporal shielding for convenience's sake. I wouldn't want a mission where nothing can touch me, we already have enough damage immunity abilities already.
But Annorax had 200 years to perfect his ship, and the Alliance probably had to cut corners somewhere to even finish their barely working prototype.
Next time point the temporal weapon at the Iconian sphere, no sphere->no beachhead plus most of their fleet never existed, that would delay or nullify the invasion entirely.
Next time point the temporal weapon at the Iconian sphere, no sphere->no beachhead plus most of their fleet never existed, that would delay or nullify the invasion entirely.
But we have no idea how old that sphere is. Or how many events it may have influenced in the Alpha/Beta quadrants back when the Iconians were in power the first time round. For all we know, removing it from existence could wipe out half the quadrant.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
1. Some interesting concepts but the Vulcan Empire, there is no evidence in STAR TREK history that the Iconians had ANY involvement in Vulcan’s warp drive projects and they didn’t achieve warp drive until AFTER the time of awakening they were too busy killing each other!
The Klingon empire not uniting, that means Kahless failed to kill Molar but you (sto) said that they unified because of off world threats - WRONG!
The Hierarchy being the new puppets of the Iconians; at first glance plausible but their the ferngi of the delta quadrant and there is no profit in conquering
The Borg being brought into it they were there for the sake of having a fight – nothing more, which leads us to my second point
2. Time travel – mechanic seemingly NOT understood by the writer; since all three ships (the weapon ship, Lisette and the player ship) where outside the space time continuum NOTHING could hurt them, no BORG, no insect, no cold virus could hurt them, so NO space battle, NO ground battle they were OUTSIDE the space time continuum just like the Q
And that’s why until the temporal core was deactivated Anorrex and the crew on his ship weren’t touchable!!!
Overall boring filler episode, can you please research your story's elements before you publish them!
The Talaxians are really the Ferengi of the Delta Quadrant, the Hierarchy are closer to Section 31. I agree on your points about the Vulcans and Klingons, though it being an alternate timeline its still plausible Vulcans could develop warp drive. As far as the Klingons in that timeline, Kahless could of failed and later they unified because of a world threat.
I actually really hate when writers wrap things up with time travel paradox's. To me, that is a lazy writing mechanic used to avoid fixing things. This includes things that end being all a dream -.-
You're right about the fact they would of been placed outside of time so the fight would of never happened. The Borg shouldn't of even been aware of their presence honestly..
Of course the Vulcan would develop warp drive the did it on their own and since the fight between Kahless and Molar did not involve the iconians and since its a different timeline and not a different quamtum reality he'd still win and as for the fight they would be aware to them just like Voyager was aware to the timeship weapon but they wouldn't have been able to do anything too them in space or on planet
and you're right it's lazy and I don't know about you but I don't get the sense that this war is being lost the conventional way, if you look at the ORI story arc in SG1 at every turn they were being defated by the priors in season 9 and season 10 was the same no different, but the only conservable way they could save everything using time minipulation is to stop the iconians being rescued from their world when they lost the war BUT that would change EVERYTHING in the alpha quadrant but only after the 2387, marker the destruction of romulas
Post edited by cers001 on
CVN-65 U.S.S. Enterprise - A ship so badass it survived John McCain.
Next time point the temporal weapon at the Iconian sphere, no sphere->no beachhead plus most of their fleet never existed, that would delay or nullify the invasion entirely.
But we have no idea how old that sphere is. Or how many events it may have influenced in the Alpha/Beta quadrants back when the Iconians were in power the first time round. For all we know, removing it from existence could wipe out half the quadrant.
The iconians themselves where influencing stuff, the Herald sphere is just a base of operations full of ships and gateways, we know it was built after the fall of Iconia, since it was built by heralds, and heralds were uplifted after the fall, so theoretically you will just be removing a huge chunk of the iconian armada, looks a lot simpler than removing several stars to throw a rogue planet against Iconia, also quite anticlimactic, that's why it was probably scrapped as an option by the writers.
Just played this episode, and I loved it. Great job to the writers and the devs.
The only thing I can't figure out: they are so worried about the effects because the Iconians have been around for 200,00 years...instead of erasing something from time entirely, why not go back in time to make a change? They have the technology, and they're already violating the temporal prime directive. The simulation system should be able to make the same type of calculations for that kind of action as it's making for removing objects from time, and by making changes instead of erasing things, they should be able to make changes without such drastic effects...and yet, no one seems to be considering that idea.
I mean, if they're going to violate the temporal prime directive anyway, isn't one way as good as another?
After suffering through a few terrible episodes, such as M'tara re-enacting that famous witch melting scene from Wizard of Oz, (just add water!), 'Butterfly' was a great return to form and I enjoyed it immensely.
That said, I think I'm beginning to understand now why, despite a lot of criticism on the so-called Iconian 'War', there might just be a good reason why we're not seeing it beyond a few story episodes. Granted all that's manifested of late I wouldn't be surprised if the Iconians disappear for awhile, (if not indefinitely...).
Sorry guys but Butterfly Effect was so badly written for Romulan players it was like you want me to say that
really I have to and I'm talk about Romulans as "they" it should be "We", my toon is Romulan dammit.
As for the option 3 it was like YES I really want to do but no I'm forced to say something I would not
say as a Romulan and then you go and do option 3 could have been a good way for us to get Donatra back
but NO you cant have that you get to keep D'tan and the so called Freedom bs.
Did anyone else notice the deference to the Hur'q in this mission?
Could cryptic be hinting at something given that the hur'q and Iconians are implied to be behind the return of the Fek'Ihri in the Klingon mission?
that's OLD news. It's been that way a long time(the old version of the Fek'lhri story made a connection between the Hur'q and Fek'lhri) and the recent Delta recruit thing made it even more explicit(there's an Iconian artifact among the spoils of war Kahless placed in his shrine... back before he died the first time).
So yeah, the Hur'Q were probably Iconian servants, and maybe the same race as the Fek'lhri.
It actually makes sense outside STO. The Hur'q came from the GAMMA Quadrant to subjugate Qo'nos.... how?
Picard thought the reputation of the Iconians might have been overblown by their contemporaries. He was always a bit of an idealist.
Available evidence indicates that Jean-Luc was wrong.
Heh, I thought he was wrong when I watched that episode the first time back when I was 15... No one would go to the amount of effort required to bomb a planet to ruin like that without a reason. Sure you can hypothesize that it wasn't a GOOD reason, but seriously? It takes BIG reason to do something like THAT.
What if Sela traveled back in time and was the one who destroyed Iconia in the first place?
What if Sela was 'The Other'?
She'd have to be 200,000 years old.
Either it'd be Yoda thing (about how well a person looks after so many years) or a time-travel thing.
Comments
What if Sela was 'The Other'?
When we decided to go ahead and use it based on the simulation which showed Romulus restored, I was very much sitting at my computer saying "I don't like this. I really don't like this." Then, when it all went to hell and the Borg had assimilated Romulus and, based on that happening 20 years ago relatively, probably most of the Alpha quadrant I actually let out a small celebratory "HA!".
By the end with the fact we were able to restore the timeline, more or less, I'm really hoping this weapon is no longer on the table as a 'solution' to the Iconian problem. However, I'm not sure how else I see this ending considering there is information stating we're only getting one more episode in the Iconian "War" arc.
I think the Alliance is done with the weapon. In this case, the risks greatly outweigh the potential gain.
The Krenim however... this was a perfect test for them. They may take the weapon and start messing around with it when they get an opening. Especially that Noye fellow. He had a very aggressive stance towards us the whole time, and now he is leading the team that will take a look at the shielded computer core's data.
I hope I'm wrong, but nonetheless, they should be monitored.
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Is this intentional and a hint to a pogo paradox between several timelines, or an accident like the slight ressemblance between the Dewans and the Elachi?
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Twitter:
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You can't escape Trek canon, no matter how much you dislike parts of it. Star Trek Online is going to use everything of it.
But, considering that Romulus is destroyed (again) by that change... Seems like we still find Iconia and alert the Iconians too early? Does that mean the Yamato finds its way to Iconia another way? Or did the Yamato survive this time.
If they had targeted the entire network, and the Borg never figure out how to build them in the first place, that'd mean we'd have no gateways to destroy in Conduit and Khitomer queues.
Maybe the 2409 invasion plays out differently too without a gateway to "backdoor" Borg ships into Federation space.
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Float Like a Butterfly, Sting like a Beedrill!
I would have to say yes.
She was quite obisously a Sphere Builder. The mention of them trying to adapt Solanae technology is a hint. I believe we created them. Something went wrong and they were sent to this transdimensional realm. It all makes sense. They want to come back to our space and since they can see different timelines they have seen that we were the cause of their problem. They want revenge.
No herald sphere no beach head to launch their invasion from
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
...Oh. Sorry.
3/10
Why?
1. Some interesting concepts but the Vulcan Empire, there is no evidence in STAR TREK history that the Iconians had ANY involvement in Vulcan’s warp drive projects and they didn’t achieve warp drive until AFTER the time of awakening they were too busy killing each other!
The Klingon empire not uniting, that means Kahless failed to kill Molar but you (sto) said that they unified because of off world threats - WRONG!
The Hierarchy being the new puppets of the Iconians; at first glance plausible but their the ferngi of the delta quadrant and there is no profit in conquering
The Borg being brought into it they were there for the sake of having a fight – nothing more, which leads us to my second point
2. Time travel – mechanic seemingly NOT understood by the writer; since all three ships (the weapon ship, Lisette and the player ship) where outside the space time continuum NOTHING could hurt them, no BORG, no insect, no cold virus could hurt them, so NO space battle, NO ground battle they were OUTSIDE the space time continuum just like the Q
And that’s why until the temporal core was deactivated Anorrex and the crew on his ship weren’t touchable!!!
Overall boring filler episode, can you please research your story's elements before you publish them!
The Talaxians are really the Ferengi of the Delta Quadrant, the Hierarchy are closer to Section 31. I agree on your points about the Vulcans and Klingons, though it being an alternate timeline its still plausible Vulcans could develop warp drive. As far as the Klingons in that timeline, Kahless could of failed and later they unified because of a world threat.
I actually really hate when writers wrap things up with time travel paradox's. To me, that is a lazy writing mechanic used to avoid fixing things. This includes things that end being all a dream -.-
You're right about the fact they would of been placed outside of time so the fight would of never happened. The Borg shouldn't of even been aware of their presence honestly..
And it shows in Butterfly because:
1/ The ship can only fire twice before having its capacitors fried and is much less resilient and advanced than Annorax's, where only Voyager ramming itself into it destroyed it, and it was only because the impact destabilized the temporal core and caused a temporal incursion, while barely scratching the ship itself
2/ The temporal shields are like every shields in ST history: freaking useless and prone to failing when the plot demands a conflict, and tprobably closer to Voyager's own temporal shielding for convenience's sake. I wouldn't want a mission where nothing can touch me, we already have enough damage immunity abilities already.
But Annorax had 200 years to perfect his ship, and the Alliance probably had to cut corners somewhere to even finish their barely working prototype.
But we have no idea how old that sphere is. Or how many events it may have influenced in the Alpha/Beta quadrants back when the Iconians were in power the first time round. For all we know, removing it from existence could wipe out half the quadrant.
Of course the Vulcan would develop warp drive the did it on their own and since the fight between Kahless and Molar did not involve the iconians and since its a different timeline and not a different quamtum reality he'd still win and as for the fight they would be aware to them just like Voyager was aware to the timeship weapon but they wouldn't have been able to do anything too them in space or on planet
and you're right it's lazy and I don't know about you but I don't get the sense that this war is being lost the conventional way, if you look at the ORI story arc in SG1 at every turn they were being defated by the priors in season 9 and season 10 was the same no different, but the only conservable way they could save everything using time minipulation is to stop the iconians being rescued from their world when they lost the war BUT that would change EVERYTHING in the alpha quadrant but only after the 2387, marker the destruction of romulas
The iconians themselves where influencing stuff, the Herald sphere is just a base of operations full of ships and gateways, we know it was built after the fall of Iconia, since it was built by heralds, and heralds were uplifted after the fall, so theoretically you will just be removing a huge chunk of the iconian armada, looks a lot simpler than removing several stars to throw a rogue planet against Iconia, also quite anticlimactic, that's why it was probably scrapped as an option by the writers.
The only thing I can't figure out: they are so worried about the effects because the Iconians have been around for 200,00 years...instead of erasing something from time entirely, why not go back in time to make a change? They have the technology, and they're already violating the temporal prime directive. The simulation system should be able to make the same type of calculations for that kind of action as it's making for removing objects from time, and by making changes instead of erasing things, they should be able to make changes without such drastic effects...and yet, no one seems to be considering that idea.
I mean, if they're going to violate the temporal prime directive anyway, isn't one way as good as another?
That said, I think I'm beginning to understand now why, despite a lot of criticism on the so-called Iconian 'War', there might just be a good reason why we're not seeing it beyond a few story episodes. Granted all that's manifested of late I wouldn't be surprised if the Iconians disappear for awhile, (if not indefinitely...).
really I have to and I'm talk about Romulans as "they" it should be "We", my toon is Romulan dammit.
As for the option 3 it was like YES I really want to do but no I'm forced to say something I would not
say as a Romulan and then you go and do option 3 could have been a good way for us to get Donatra back
but NO you cant have that you get to keep D'tan and the so called Freedom bs.
Join date July 08
So yeah, the Hur'Q were probably Iconian servants, and maybe the same race as the Fek'lhri.
It actually makes sense outside STO. The Hur'q came from the GAMMA Quadrant to subjugate Qo'nos.... how?
My character Tsin'xing
Either it'd be Yoda thing (about how well a person looks after so many years) or a time-travel thing.