Isn't it funny how all the women in the mirror universe were at the very least bisexual, but...oh, Worf and Garak were too though, so never mind.
The trope of the "depraved bisexual" is one often used by untalented, juvenile writers.
It's just further evidence that shows that DS9's writers are vastly overrated.
No. It's evidence that the Mirror Universe fails as a concept. There's not a lot fantastic writers can do to a bad concept. Look what happened when the DS9 writers did a few VOY episodes, even they could't save VOY.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Isn't it funny how all the women in the mirror universe were at the very least bisexual, but...oh, Worf and Garak were too though, so never mind.
The trope of the "depraved bisexual" is one often used by untalented, juvenile writers.
It's just further evidence that shows that DS9's writers are vastly overrated.
No. It's evidence that the Mirror Universe fails as a concept. There's not a lot fantastic writers can do to a bad concept. Look what happened when the DS9 writers did a few VOY episodes, even they could't save VOY.
How exactly does it fail as a concept?
DS9's version certainly did, because they removed the one fun aspect (the Empire itself) and turned it into a generic plucky human rebels vs evil oppressors story.
The only good thing to come out of DS9's MU arc is Kira's outfit. Which we still don't have!
As for DS9's writers "saving" Voyager, that's a larf.
These are the people who brought us holographic Frank Sinatra impersonators, Vulcan baseball, literal Sisko Jesus, literal demon Dukat, the insipid chemistry free Odo/Kira romance that both actors hated, Worf repeating his entire Klingon exile arc from TNG, cartoon character Gowron, the Breen 1 episode I win button and Profit and Lace.
Yeah, DS9 gave us In the Pale Moonlight, but VOY gave us Year of Hell.
A few good episodes doesn't change that DS9's writers are vastly overrated. Especially Ron Moore.
Isn't it funny how all the women in the mirror universe were at the very least bisexual, but...oh, Worf and Garak were too though, so never mind.
The trope of the "depraved bisexual" is one often used by untalented, juvenile writers.
It's just further evidence that shows that DS9's writers are vastly overrated.
No. It's evidence that the Mirror Universe fails as a concept. There's not a lot fantastic writers can do to a bad concept. Look what happened when the DS9 writers did a few VOY episodes, even they could't save VOY.
How exactly does it fail as a concept?
DS9's version certainly did, because they removed the one fun aspect (the Empire itself) and turned it into a generic plucky human rebels vs evil oppressors story.
The only good thing to come out of DS9's MU arc is Kira's outfit. Which we still don't have!
As for DS9's writers "saving" Voyager, that's a larf.
These are the people who brought us holographic Frank Sinatra impersonators, Vulcan baseball, literal Sisko Jesus, literal demon Dukat, the insipid chemistry free Odo/Kira romance that both actors hated, Worf repeating his entire Klingon exile arc from TNG, cartoon character Gowron, the Breen 1 episode I win button and Profit and Lace.
Yeah, DS9 gave us In the Pale Moonlight, but VOY gave us Year of Hell.
A few good episodes doesn't change that DS9's writers are vastly overrated. Especially Ron Moore.
It fails for the reasons you gave, 'Mirror Mirror' could never go anywhere, yet they tried and it failed.
I never said they 'saved' it, I said they came in to write for it but the concept of VOY failed them.
Vic's divisive sure, you personally not liking him isn't the fault of the writers as other people do like him. Vulcan baseball was stupid, but baseball is stupid anyway, sport and sci-fi don't mix. The Sisko/Dukat/prophets/pahwraiths thing is contentious but also a necessary conclusion for all the hanging threads. I see no difference between Sisko's involvement with the prophets and Picard's with Q. I could't care less about Kira and Odo, the romance plots bored me in all of Trek. Worf's are was an extension of TNG's Klingon plotlines, it's not repetition, it's continuity, a very good piece of continuity at that, very well written and connected. Nope. Gowron was an excellent break from the cartoon 'honour' Klingons of TNG. The Breen were another example of great writing.
Oh, you're right, 'profit and lace' yup, DS9 is officially c.rap with c.rap writers... Oh, hold on, every show has bad episodes, DS9 is no exception. I'm sure you can name as many bad DS9 episodes as you can bad VOY episodes.
I'll save you time, you can't, because DS9 had mare better writers. Also note the large storylines (Sisko and the prophets etc.) is the job of hte producers not the writers, so if you can think of a way to write better episodes with the concepts you're mandated to work with, feel free.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It fails for the reasons you gave, 'Mirror Mirror' could never go anywhere, yet they tried and it failed.
I never said they 'saved' it, I said they came in to write for it but the concept of VOY failed them.
Vic's divisive sure, you personally not liking him isn't the fault of the writers as other people do like him. Vulcan baseball was stupid, but baseball is stupid anyway, sport and sci-fi don't mix. The Sisko/Dukat/prophets/pahwraiths thing is contentious but also a necessary conclusion for all the hanging threads. I see no difference between Sisko's involvement with the prophets and Picard's with Q. I could't care less about Kira and Odo, the romance plots bored me in all of Trek. Worf's are was an extension of TNG's Klingon plotlines, it's not repetition, it's continuity, a very good piece of continuity at that, very well written and connected. Nope. Gowron was an excellent break from the cartoon 'honour' Klingons of TNG. The Breen were another example of great writing.
Oh, you're right, 'profit and lace' yup, DS9 is officially c.rap with c.rap writers... Oh, hold on, every show has bad episodes, DS9 is no exception. I'm sure you can name as many bad DS9 episodes as you can bad VOY episodes.
I'll save you time, you can't, because DS9 had mare better writers. Also note the large storylines (Sisko and the prophets etc.) is the job of hte producers not the writers, so if you can think of a way to write better episodes with the concepts you're mandated to work with, feel free.
I simply don't see how DS9's failure to characterise the MU properly means it couldn't go anywhere.
The MU was always meant to be a fun departure from our regular characters, it doesn't really matter if the plot is stupid (see In a Mirror Darkly).
The problem with DS9 is that it had the character departure, but omitted the fun.
If you want to like bad Frank Sinatra impersonators, that's up to you. But whether you like them or not, they don't belong in Star Trek, let alone deserve to have entire episodes dedicated to fixing their fake videogame life.
As for the Prophets and Q. Q was never the centre of an obnoxious and boring religion, and Picard was never the literal son of a "god"' nor did Q fight demon like beings with fiery eyes who possessed people, not the same at all.
You're joking on Worf and Gowron, right? Worf's arc was done. Doing it again, in a worse way, murdering Kurn for no good reaon (if his memories are gone for good, the Kurn is dead, the end) was an atrocity, and Gowron? Gowron subverted the honour archetype in TNG already. DS9 turned Gowron from calculating, self-centred bur ultimately effective and reliable leader to cartoon villain and psychopath juuust to give Worf something to do.
How were the Breen examples of great writing? They come in, attack the Federation with I win button technobabble, destroy the Defiant for no good narrative reason as it is immediately replaced with an identical ship (I mean hell even the 1701-A took a whole movie to arrive), said technobabble advantage is also immediately nullified and we spend the rest of the war having to listen to a Breen goon buzz static at the Evil Queen, I mean, the head changeling.
Lastly, I can name good episodes of DS9 and VOY, and bad ones. And there were a lot of bad ones in DS9.
Profit and Lace being not only one of the worst episodes of DS9 but one of the worst ever, right up there with Spock's Brain and... No, i'd sooner watch Threshold than P&L again.
You can blame the producers if you want, but wasn't Ron Moore one of them?
The mirror universe was the stage for a one-off morality play, as in "what if we all were evil and selfish" - the opposite of what Star Trek tried to portray. It was a very good concept for one episode. By even picking it up again the writers killed it. It's similiar to the Borg - a very good, alien concept of a strang new world, but not feasible to serve as a plot point. By using the Borg again after "Best of both Worlds" they killed the concept.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The mirror universe was the stage for a one-off morality play, as in "what if we all were evil and selfish" - the opposite of what Star Trek tried to portray. It was a very good concept for one episode. By even picking it up again the writers killed it. It's similiar to the Borg - a very good, alien concept of a strang new world, but not feasible to serve as a plot point. By using the Borg again after "Best of both Worlds" they killed the concept.
I disagree, and even that horrible abortion of a series "Enterprise" managed to take the MU and make really good use of it for what 5 episodes? DS9's version was a lot of 'wtf' moments.
The mirror universe was the stage for a one-off morality play, as in "what if we all were evil and selfish" - the opposite of what Star Trek tried to portray. It was a very good concept for one episode. By even picking it up again the writers killed it. It's similiar to the Borg - a very good, alien concept of a strang new world, but not feasible to serve as a plot point. By using the Borg again after "Best of both Worlds" they killed the concept.
I disagree, and even that horrible abortion of a series "Enterprise" managed to take the MU and make really good use of it for what 5 episodes? DS9's version was a lot of 'wtf' moments.
2 episodes.
But indeed, the concept can be extended. 1 or 2 episodes per show would've been fine.
DS9's problem was the removal of the Empire, like I said, which just left it as a generic dark version of DS9 rendering it virtually indistinguishable from later Terok Nor flashback episodes in tone.
Also, they tried to make a plot arc out of it, and this reeeeaally didn't work, because now we've lost all spontaneity of seeing different versions of the characters.
Isn't it funny how all the women in the mirror universe were at the very least bisexual, but...oh, Worf and Garak were too though, so never mind.
Any form of open minded sexuality belongs in the evil mirrorverse
Look how progressive we are, see we have TRIBBLE characters... but they're all evil, ah well.
Mirror Leeta was on the good guys side, and Ezri ended up there by the end, of course in STO the good guys end up taken over by O'brian's son, who becomes an evil emperor of a new Terran Empire, which in turn attacks Star Fleet, the KDF, and Romulans, so maybe the lessen should be the Prime Directive now applies to the mirror universe.
But I still refuse to accept that over all of the other Starfleet Officers proving themselves day in and day out that have obvious seniority over you (Nog, Paris, Kim, Shon) that you would be tapped to be promoted to Admiral and eventually Fleet Admiral before any of the men and women that have put anything longer then 2 years into their career. I get that they want us to feel like the hero. But the hero doesnt need to be bumped to the highest Starfleet rank available to make you feel like as one.
Rank does not come with age, both the Federation and the Klingon empire are meritocracies. There is also the small matter of nobody below captain rank being seen in command of a starship except in extraordinary circumstances, as such all my characters are at least captains, even my 19 year old tactical officer who got the rank due to the extreme shortage of captains, her skills and performance. Though I can see her 24 year old sister making RA/:LH as a result of the extreme damage quoted in the Iconian war dialogue, even if said damage has never actually been seen.
Rank also does not come with one space battle where explosions, ruptures in the hull and disruptor fire ignores everyone below Lieutenant and kills everyone above it. Your arguement is that you never saw anyone below Captain in charge except special occasions. I would argue that I have NEVER seen anyone go from Cadet to Fleet Admiral in 2 years. EVER. Worf ran patrols with the Defiant quite often and even commanded the ship in the Battle of Sector 001, there was no care to even explain why the Defiant was so far from DS9 or why Sisko wasnt running things. Data was charged with commanding a starship when it was without a commanding officer.
Your head canon is your own. But Im basing my head canon on my own knowledge of real world militaries. Where smaller vessels are commanded by lower ranked personnel with larger more important vessels and groups of vessels commanded by higher ranked personnel. And 19 year old kids who would still be in their first year of the Academy would be lucky to find themselves as a Team Leader on a Cadet Exercise.
Jadzia was in command of the defiant for months while Captain Sisko served Admiral Ross directly as well.
Geko has made a few recent tweets on this subject. Apparently, the ships you are using for the admiralty system aren't *really* the inactive ships in your inventory. Instead, they are something like a doff that represents those ships you own:
Geko has made a few recent tweets on this subject. Apparently, the ships you are using for the admiralty system aren't *really* the inactive ships in your inventory. Instead, they are something like a doff that represents those ships you own:
Okay, so basically the Admiralty system is a rehashed doff system. Escorts do better on tactical missions. Cruisers do better on engineering/operations missions. Science ships do better on Science/Medical missions. I'm assuming.
I guess it's nice they're giving us something to do with our hangar queens, and I do like the doff system, not sure it's worth the pomp and fanfare it's getting though.
I was expecting away teams in space, where you can have 4 geared ships follow you around. But I guess having a card game is easier.
Away teams in space would have been a wonderful system, although it would wreak havoc with the mission 'balance' from what I gather they have to make maps that specify less than four companions to limit the number of companions follow you onto a map. which would mean remaking every mission map to date.
I, for one, am elated that this "Admirality" is a Doff-type system or something similar along those lines instead of a wretched away team system in space.
Because to me Star Trek is a ship, her Captain and the crew going on adventures in the galaxy, not hurr-durr attack squadrons. And because LOL@away team even on ground in it's current state, don't need that headache in space. Plus, GOT LAG??
If you want to like bad Frank Sinatra impersonators, that's up to you. But whether you like them or not, they don't belong in Star Trek, let alone deserve to have entire episodes dedicated to fixing their fake videogame life.
You don't get to say Frank Sinatra impersonators that's like saying that holo-gangsters don't belong in ST or Space Lincon or the Inflatable Enterprise, or any of the countless other out their concepts.
As for the Prophets and Q. Q was never the centre of an obnoxious and boring religion, and Picard was never the literal son of a "god"' nor did Q fight demon like beings with fiery eyes who possessed people, not the same at all.
All religion is like that, and equally out of place in ST, however the story needed it, it was a huge part of the Bajoran arc from TNG and DS9 that needed to be explored and explained away.
You're joking on Worf and Gowron, right? Worf's arc was done. Doing it again, in a worse way, murdering Kurn for no good reaon (if his memories are gone for good, the Kurn is dead, the end) was an atrocity, and Gowron? Gowron subverted the honour archetype in TNG already. DS9 turned Gowron from calculating, self-centred bur ultimately effective and reliable leader to cartoon villain and psychopath juuust to give Worf something to do.
You're confusing you not liking it with bad writing. Gawron is clearly going mad from the war, a lot of the characters do, but Gawron is being heavily effected by it.
How were the Breen examples of great writing? They come in, attack the Federation with I win button technobabble, destroy the Defiant for no good narrative reason as it is immediately replaced with an identical ship (I mean hell even the 1701-A took a whole movie to arrive), said technobabble advantage is also immediately nullified and we spend the rest of the war having to listen to a Breen goon buzz static at the Evil Queen, I mean, the head changeling.
Because of what they could do, they came from nowhere and plunged into the heart of Earth, in the overall atmosphere of the War, that was even more scary than the Changelings in SF command.
Lastly, I can name good episodes of DS9 and VOY, and bad ones. And there were a lot of bad ones in DS9.
Profit and Lace being not only one of the worst episodes of DS9 but one of the worst ever, right up there with Spock's Brain and... No, i'd sooner watch Threshold than P&L again.
There were bad ones sure, by comparison to the rest and there were some that scared the franchise by their existence, but DS9 had far fewer than VOY did. And I really don't get the hate for Threshold, it was bad, it wasn't awful, it was no Space hippies (that TOS episode), 'Shades of Grey', 'Spock's Brain' or even 'Code of Honour'.
You can blame the producers if you want, but wasn't Ron Moore one of them?
Yes, but not the only, and not the only writer as well. Unlike the combination of B&B and Taylor on VOY.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Okay, so basically the Admiralty system is a rehashed doff system. Escorts do better on tactical missions. Cruisers do better on engineering/operations missions. Science ships do better on Science/Medical missions. I'm assuming.
On the bright side... since we're not dropping off individual members of our crew from out of the bowels of our own ships, but instead delegating authority to warp-capable vessels that are... elsewhere we shouldn't have to fly anywhere to find missions, just get a full list and select what we want going where. You know... unless Cryptic screws that up.
Once again, content simulation instead of, you know, real gameplay...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I, for one, am elated that this "Admirality" is a Doff-type system or something similar along those lines instead of a wretched away team system in space.
Because to me Star Trek is a ship, her Captain and the crew going on adventures in the galaxy, not hurr-durr attack squadrons. And because LOL@away team even on ground in it's current state, don't need that headache in space. Plus, GOT LAG??
Maybe down the road they'll let us slot Admiralty ships for Fleet Support style assistance. That would take away the worry of having to gear up multiple ships but provide the fun of having more diverse Fleet Support at least.
ya know what woulda been cool? A 'distress beacon' like the nimbus pirates or the new one... pop it and watch 3 of your own ships(which you slotted) warp in and 'hulk smash' but noooo.... now we get a CCG.... anyone else waiting for the mobile app tie in now?
Okay, so basically the Admiralty system is a rehashed doff system. Escorts do better on tactical missions. Cruisers do better on engineering/operations missions. Science ships do better on Science/Medical missions. I'm assuming.
I guess it's nice they're giving us something to do with our hangar queens, and I do like the doff system, not sure it's worth the pomp and fanfare it's getting though.
I was expecting away teams in space, where you can have 4 geared ships follow you around. But I guess having a card game is easier.
There is only one reason why they are doing this, Star Trek Timelines.
No kidding. I'm jealous of my DOFFs now I get to be jealous of other ships.
I hope this isn't the 'main feature' event for season 11.
I know. I really would love to do stuff the DOFF system simulates. Escorting prisoners, making first contact, receiving diplomats, raid convois, defend colonies, build colonies, explore nebulas, challenge subordinates, hell, even weapon excercises...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'd be nice if my Klingons could get the rank of Admiral (or General or what ever the equivalent is) rather than an honourary title.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
"Indeed you are commander. And your record has been exemplary, well except for that unfortunate incident with the Fleet Admirals Mascot....."
The commander shuffled his footing nervously and stared down at his feet.
"We have finally been granted permission by Starfleet command to form our own squadron using all of the ships we have mothballed here at Starbase Marvin".
"Outstanding sir!" exclaimed the commander, looking up at the admiral.
"Yes it is. All of your fellow officers have already been placed in command of some of the ships, and its your turn now."
"Sir! I don't know what to say, I'm honoured that you....hang on.....wait a minute..."
The commander glanced out of the window at the remaining ship, hovering at its docking gantry, the ship affectionately known as "the space canoe"
"Sir?"
"Yes commander?"
"Its the Oberth isn't it sir...."
"I have no doubts about your ability to command. You have shown me tha...."
"Sir?" Interrupted the commander "...its the Oberth....ISNT IT!"
Once again, content simulation instead of, you know, real gameplay...
Well, when it comes to "I want to be an Admiral"-System - Content Simulation equals Real Gameplay. You give orders to people and ships that execute them.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
No. It's evidence that the Mirror Universe fails as a concept. There's not a lot fantastic writers can do to a bad concept. Look what happened when the DS9 writers did a few VOY episodes, even they could't save VOY.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
How exactly does it fail as a concept?
DS9's version certainly did, because they removed the one fun aspect (the Empire itself) and turned it into a generic plucky human rebels vs evil oppressors story.
The only good thing to come out of DS9's MU arc is Kira's outfit. Which we still don't have!
As for DS9's writers "saving" Voyager, that's a larf.
These are the people who brought us holographic Frank Sinatra impersonators, Vulcan baseball, literal Sisko Jesus, literal demon Dukat, the insipid chemistry free Odo/Kira romance that both actors hated, Worf repeating his entire Klingon exile arc from TNG, cartoon character Gowron, the Breen 1 episode I win button and Profit and Lace.
Yeah, DS9 gave us In the Pale Moonlight, but VOY gave us Year of Hell.
A few good episodes doesn't change that DS9's writers are vastly overrated. Especially Ron Moore.
It fails for the reasons you gave, 'Mirror Mirror' could never go anywhere, yet they tried and it failed.
I never said they 'saved' it, I said they came in to write for it but the concept of VOY failed them.
Vic's divisive sure, you personally not liking him isn't the fault of the writers as other people do like him. Vulcan baseball was stupid, but baseball is stupid anyway, sport and sci-fi don't mix. The Sisko/Dukat/prophets/pahwraiths thing is contentious but also a necessary conclusion for all the hanging threads. I see no difference between Sisko's involvement with the prophets and Picard's with Q. I could't care less about Kira and Odo, the romance plots bored me in all of Trek. Worf's are was an extension of TNG's Klingon plotlines, it's not repetition, it's continuity, a very good piece of continuity at that, very well written and connected. Nope. Gowron was an excellent break from the cartoon 'honour' Klingons of TNG. The Breen were another example of great writing.
Oh, you're right, 'profit and lace' yup, DS9 is officially c.rap with c.rap writers... Oh, hold on, every show has bad episodes, DS9 is no exception. I'm sure you can name as many bad DS9 episodes as you can bad VOY episodes.
I'll save you time, you can't, because DS9 had mare better writers. Also note the large storylines (Sisko and the prophets etc.) is the job of hte producers not the writers, so if you can think of a way to write better episodes with the concepts you're mandated to work with, feel free.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I simply don't see how DS9's failure to characterise the MU properly means it couldn't go anywhere.
The MU was always meant to be a fun departure from our regular characters, it doesn't really matter if the plot is stupid (see In a Mirror Darkly).
The problem with DS9 is that it had the character departure, but omitted the fun.
If you want to like bad Frank Sinatra impersonators, that's up to you. But whether you like them or not, they don't belong in Star Trek, let alone deserve to have entire episodes dedicated to fixing their fake videogame life.
As for the Prophets and Q. Q was never the centre of an obnoxious and boring religion, and Picard was never the literal son of a "god"' nor did Q fight demon like beings with fiery eyes who possessed people, not the same at all.
You're joking on Worf and Gowron, right? Worf's arc was done. Doing it again, in a worse way, murdering Kurn for no good reaon (if his memories are gone for good, the Kurn is dead, the end) was an atrocity, and Gowron? Gowron subverted the honour archetype in TNG already. DS9 turned Gowron from calculating, self-centred bur ultimately effective and reliable leader to cartoon villain and psychopath juuust to give Worf something to do.
How were the Breen examples of great writing? They come in, attack the Federation with I win button technobabble, destroy the Defiant for no good narrative reason as it is immediately replaced with an identical ship (I mean hell even the 1701-A took a whole movie to arrive), said technobabble advantage is also immediately nullified and we spend the rest of the war having to listen to a Breen goon buzz static at the Evil Queen, I mean, the head changeling.
Lastly, I can name good episodes of DS9 and VOY, and bad ones. And there were a lot of bad ones in DS9.
Profit and Lace being not only one of the worst episodes of DS9 but one of the worst ever, right up there with Spock's Brain and... No, i'd sooner watch Threshold than P&L again.
You can blame the producers if you want, but wasn't Ron Moore one of them?
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I disagree, and even that horrible abortion of a series "Enterprise" managed to take the MU and make really good use of it for what 5 episodes? DS9's version was a lot of 'wtf' moments.
2 episodes.
But indeed, the concept can be extended. 1 or 2 episodes per show would've been fine.
DS9's problem was the removal of the Empire, like I said, which just left it as a generic dark version of DS9 rendering it virtually indistinguishable from later Terok Nor flashback episodes in tone.
Also, they tried to make a plot arc out of it, and this reeeeaally didn't work, because now we've lost all spontaneity of seeing different versions of the characters.
Mirror Leeta was on the good guys side, and Ezri ended up there by the end, of course in STO the good guys end up taken over by O'brian's son, who becomes an evil emperor of a new Terran Empire, which in turn attacks Star Fleet, the KDF, and Romulans, so maybe the lessen should be the Prime Directive now applies to the mirror universe.
Jadzia was in command of the defiant for months while Captain Sisko served Admiral Ross directly as well.
So that gear or stats of the ship you own do not really matter for the admiralty system...
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yay for the good use of Tamunese there Al Rivera! Yet again, they get deceptive in their blogs and twitter/facebook stuff.
I guess it's nice they're giving us something to do with our hangar queens, and I do like the doff system, not sure it's worth the pomp and fanfare it's getting though.
I was expecting away teams in space, where you can have 4 geared ships follow you around. But I guess having a card game is easier.
Because to me Star Trek is a ship, her Captain and the crew going on adventures in the galaxy, not hurr-durr attack squadrons. And because LOL@away team even on ground in it's current state, don't need that headache in space. Plus, GOT LAG??
All religion is like that, and equally out of place in ST, however the story needed it, it was a huge part of the Bajoran arc from TNG and DS9 that needed to be explored and explained away.
You're confusing you not liking it with bad writing. Gawron is clearly going mad from the war, a lot of the characters do, but Gawron is being heavily effected by it.
Because of what they could do, they came from nowhere and plunged into the heart of Earth, in the overall atmosphere of the War, that was even more scary than the Changelings in SF command.
There were bad ones sure, by comparison to the rest and there were some that scared the franchise by their existence, but DS9 had far fewer than VOY did. And I really don't get the hate for Threshold, it was bad, it wasn't awful, it was no Space hippies (that TOS episode), 'Shades of Grey', 'Spock's Brain' or even 'Code of Honour'.
Yes, but not the only, and not the only writer as well. Unlike the combination of B&B and Taylor on VOY.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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On the bright side... since we're not dropping off individual members of our crew from out of the bowels of our own ships, but instead delegating authority to warp-capable vessels that are... elsewhere we shouldn't have to fly anywhere to find missions, just get a full list and select what we want going where. You know... unless Cryptic screws that up.
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Maybe down the road they'll let us slot Admiralty ships for Fleet Support style assistance. That would take away the worry of having to gear up multiple ships but provide the fun of having more diverse Fleet Support at least.
No kidding. I'm jealous of my DOFFs now I get to be jealous of other ships.
I hope this isn't the 'main feature' event for season 11.
There is only one reason why they are doing this, Star Trek Timelines.
That and more monetization, but that was a given.
I however prefer the rank of captain/captain/commander. I have only adjusted the rank title past that when my Klingon toon hit Dahar Master.
I know. I really would love to do stuff the DOFF system simulates. Escorting prisoners, making first contact, receiving diplomats, raid convois, defend colonies, build colonies, explore nebulas, challenge subordinates, hell, even weapon excercises...
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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"Come in!" shouted the admiral.
"You asked me to report to you Admiral"
"Yes commander. I have a new assignment for you!"
"Excellent sir! I'm here to serve"
"Indeed you are commander. And your record has been exemplary, well except for that unfortunate incident with the Fleet Admirals Mascot....."
The commander shuffled his footing nervously and stared down at his feet.
"We have finally been granted permission by Starfleet command to form our own squadron using all of the ships we have mothballed here at Starbase Marvin".
"Outstanding sir!" exclaimed the commander, looking up at the admiral.
"Yes it is. All of your fellow officers have already been placed in command of some of the ships, and its your turn now."
"Sir! I don't know what to say, I'm honoured that you....hang on.....wait a minute..."
The commander glanced out of the window at the remaining ship, hovering at its docking gantry, the ship affectionately known as "the space canoe"
"Sir?"
"Yes commander?"
"Its the Oberth isn't it sir...."
"I have no doubts about your ability to command. You have shown me tha...."
"Sir?" Interrupted the commander "...its the Oberth....ISNT IT!"
*cough* "Yes....yes it is commander."
"Sir?"
"Yes commander?"
"I request a transfer"