Thank You Cryptic [for giving us the means to undo that Supernova]

flash525

Yeah, so anyone that has played the new "Time in a Bottle" feature episode will have concluded by now that the Time Ship built by Anorax in ST:Voyager is soon to be constructed again. Whilst we know that ship can't travel through time (so much as it takes events sideways) there's no reason now that someone from the Republic couldn't use one of those ships to sidestep around the events that killed all of those Romulans (and Remans).

Now we get to Save Romulus, there's no reason we can't get the Star Empire as a Faction.

PS: Someone screwed up in the writing department, cause I bet there's no agreeable reason not to do this [even though I know it'll come to nothing just because]

TRIBBLE & Giggles

angrytarg

Sole reason the RR exists is because a) the star empire is considered a "villian faction" and players should only play "good" guys and b) it needs a somewhat desolate half-faction so STOs two-faction model still works. The RSE wouldn't be all that needy to appeal to the big ones.

flash525

That's not entirely accurate though, is it? I think it was established (at the end of ST:Nemesis) that the Romulan Star Empire wasn't truly a villainous faction, and that there was to be diplomacy between the Federation and RSE (re; Riker taking the Titan there).

If you want to talk villainous, then how about the Klingon Empire declaring war on the Federation? I bet the Federation have lost more lives due to Klingons than they ever have at the hands of a Romulan.

saurializard

I can see it happening: you restore Romulus and it turns out it got overwhelmed by the Borg and is in the process of taking over the Quadrant because of the Tal Shiar experiments and the only reason they didn't infect the planet was because it got destroyed first.

So you're forced to leave Romulus destroyed to preserve the timeline and save more lives than the Romulans and the war will cost to the Federation and the Klingons.

duncanidaho11

I think its safe to say that STO is not going to retcon itself out of existence just to go back and make the wrong decision when it comes to a romulan sub-faction. :P

angrytarg

flash525 wrote: »

That's not entirely accurate though, is it? I think it was established (at the end of ST:Nemesis) that the Romulan Star Empire wasn't truly a villainous faction, and that there was to be diplomacy between the Federation and RSE (re; Riker taking the Titan there).

If you want to talk villainous, then how about the Klingon Empire declaring war on the Federation? I bet the Federation have lost more lives due to Klingons than they ever have at the hands of a Romulan.

Well, STOs storyline doesn't really make that much sense. Back before LOR, the Romulan Star Empire was by all means and purposes equivalent to the Tal Shiar, and those are villians. The game did not make a differentiation between Empire and Tal Shiar, that's something new (since they revamped the Sela story). So back then it was to avoid the evil faction.

As misrepresented the Klingon Empire in STO is, they aren't villanious - the war happened because they discovered infiltrators and were right and the federation denied infiltrators and would have opened all gates for mischief.

captrott1

I could see this being a Featured Episode but I do not think they would change everything because of it. If we simply removed Iconians from the time stream like Annarex did to so many species, this would be one of the changes that happened.

duncanidaho11

captrott1 wrote: »

I could see this being a Featured Episode but I do not think they would change everything because of it. If we simply removed Iconians from the time stream like Annarex did to so many species, this would be one of the changes that happened.

...Did you watch what happened through the rest of those episodes? You can't stop at just one because no single change is going to result in a totally agreeable universe. Remove the Iconians and something else will be "wrong" with it all. Remove that, and hey as it turns out another threat was merely waiting to exploit an open opportunity. Eventually you'll work your way down the list to yourself and that sets everything back to the way it was.

I think its the one common feature of the institutionalized temporal manipulation story (see. Isaac Asimov's End of Eternity) that it ultimately cancels itself out (because its an inherently unstable system.) If Cryptic is going to give us another year of hell, you can bet that we're going to end where we started.

dareau

Have you been reading other speculation threads recently?

There's one out here guessing on the identity of "The Other". Many say it is the PC, after (s)he elects to save the Iconians from genocidal death from the Annorax Time Eraser...

Personally, I'm of the opinion that between Temporal Instigations, The Iconians themselves, one of the intrepid Voyager crew, but most likely "The Other", there will be some reason for the time eraser to not work.

Because you know the existence of the eraser ship, out there either lost or in the wrong hands would be the plot point for the post-war arc(s)...

And by Season 15, it'll get self-erased, and then we'll deal with that can of worms later...

royalsovereign

I say the Alliance looks at the Time Ship and says, "Um, I'm thinking the fix is worse than the problem. How about we just develop this whole 'step sidewise out of the timestream' idea and use it to club the Iconians to death, and forget this thing was ever an idea?"

ryugasirius

flash525 wrote: »

Whilst we know that ship can't travel through time (so much as it takes events sideways) there's no reason now that someone from the Republic couldn't use one of those ships to sidestep around the events that killed all of those Romulans (and Remans).

Well, "no reason"? The leaders of the Republic are unificationists and dissidents. The Empire would have executed them sooner or later if Hobus supernova didn't happen. The Remans are, well, Remans. They would have to resume a life of slavery. I don't think anyone in charge is eager to have Romulus back at that price.

Captain Amahino

The temporal weapons ship was always more trouble than it was worth. Remember the time Annorax killed his wife because contact with the enemy he erased provided a vital antibody to the Krenim that allowed them to survive a devastating disease which went on to kill his wife. There are way too many variables. If we erased the Vaadwaur for instance, we may also destroy the conditions that allowed the Delta Alliance to form, thus crippling any Delta Quadrant defenses against the Iconians, or leaving the Voth and the Turei on our backs, and not giving us the info we needed to see the Iconians at work there in the first place. More importantly the technological advances from that war. It's all too messy. No Delta reputation, no Vaadwaur ships...or their cheap traits.

As for erasing the Hobus Supernova...how? Who would you erase? You need a target for a Temporal Incursion? Hakeev is dead, do you erase his body? Can't get Taris.

Do you target the Hobus star's remnants itself? Erase the star, but then what does that do to the Star Empire? Was the star important? What about its gravitational pull in the quadrant, or just in Romulan Space? Would planet Romulus even be able to support life if it wasn't there? If Eisn and Hobus came from the same stellar nursery, would the removal of Hobus make Eisn too big for M-class planets to form?

If you could stop the supernova, would the Empire still be strong? Would there have been a civil war between Donatra and Chulan? Or maybe Chulan and Sela when she came back with the Hirogen in tow? Would the Romulans have joined in on J'mpok's war against the Federation?

I don't like it myself, we're not Q, effective temporal manipulation can't be done, not at this time. I would find it fascinating if we built the thing warped the timeline and then got attacked by a 29th century Federation Timeship.

I think the main things we can get from the Krenim Temporal Weaponship is temporal shields and weaponry. Updated and advanced Chroniton torpedoes, the ability to ignore Iconian weapons and use time maneuvering against them, the way they use space manipulating gateway technology and omega against us.

The biggest thing is that time travel erases Iconian memories. They could very well be immune to an outright temporal incursion, but if you can reset their minds to a time when they weren't insane, we might be able to negotiate some kind of peace.

All that said. Captain Amahino is like this, "If we target the Andromeda Dyson Sphere with this thing....I'm not seeing a downside."

gulberat

flash525 wrote: »

Yeah, so anyone that has played the new "Time in a Bottle" feature episode will have concluded by now that the Time Ship built by Anorax in ST:Voyager is soon to be constructed again. Whilst we know that ship can't travel through time (so much as it takes events sideways) there's no reason now that someone from the Republic couldn't use one of those ships to sidestep around the events that killed all of those Romulans (and Remans).

Now we get to Save Romulus, there's no reason we can't get the Star Empire as a Faction.

PS: Someone screwed up in the writing department, cause I bet there's no agreeable reason not to do this [even though I know it'll come to nothing just because]

There's no telling if what we build will be as effective as what Annorax built...it may be limited in some fashion.

Also, at least on the Federation side, the Temporal Prime Directive would IMO forbid any..."unnecessary" changes to the time stream unless we could prove some sort of temporal incursion led to the time stream being what it was in the first place. As much as the other members of the Alliance would hate this, I would expect they will ultimately be forced to concede to the Federation's ruling on the matter. Whether or not that is actually a good thing is a whole other argument, but politically, I am expecting the Temporal Prime Directive to hold sway.

And that bit about the Klingons...oh boy, that is a whole other thread...

rattler2

Its too risky to use the Weapon Ship. We target Iconia, EVERYTHING Iconian is wiped from existance. The Gateways, the Dyson Spheres...

Scotty survived into the 24th Century because of a Dyson Sphere. If the Jenolan Sphere wasn't built... No Scotty in the 24th Century.

The Weapon Ship is a big boot. And using it is the equivelent of going back in time and stepping on a bug. The result is that that bug would not reproduce, which in turn would lead to an unforseen chain of events that could actually ALTER how and what species evolved. Sorry to all the Imperial Romulan supporters, but its a can of worms better left unopened. Romulus is gone, and the Tal Shiar has basically taken over and turned the remnants into a dark perversion of the Empire. The Republic is here to stay, and IMO the better choice as they don't stab their own people in the back just for not agreeing with them.

rosetyler51

I think OP has gone full Taris-tier crazy.

gradii

rosetyler51 wrote: »

I think OP has gone full Taris-tier crazy.

I agree. Besides how can you erase the hobus supernova which happened years ago, with a ship which actually cannot travel through time?

best you can do is erase the debris and then make the disaster an even bigger mystery...

Romulus is GONE. and should stay gone, even my Romulan character would agree on moving ahead.

gulberat

Heh...my Reman character doesn't really have a direct stake in the Hobus decision, given that Remus had already largely been evacuated to Crateris by that point (if not entirely), and does not exactly hold fond memories for her. It was a place of slavery.

That said, I suspect my version of Tovan would be more conflicted--deeply so, and vehement in expressing it.

scififan78

gradii wrote: »

Besides how can you erase the hobus supernova which happened years ago, with a ship which actually cannot travel through time?

best you can do is erase the debris and then make the disaster an even bigger mystery...

Romulus is GONE. and should stay gone, even my Romulan character would agree on moving ahead.

If the Hobus Supernova was the plan of the Iconians in the first place, then it can be undone by Annorax's ship. Remove Iconia from the time line and then they would not have told Hakeev to do it. The issue I have is, if you remove the Iconians from the time line, what big bad will take their place?

gradii

My romulan was very young at the time, and doesn't even remember she was ever actually there, although she was briefly. She wishes she coulda seen it, and of course it was a disaster, but Taris like obsessions are unhealthy.

flash525

ryugasirius wrote: »

Well, "no reason"? The leaders of the Republic are unificationists and dissidents. The Empire would have executed them sooner or later if Hobus supernova didn't happen. The Remans are, well, Remans. They would have to resume a life of slavery. I don't think anyone in charge is eager to have Romulus back at that price.

I have no doubt that many (on Romulus) would turn to the Republic, rather than side with the RSE. But then, I suppose, if Romulus was saved, then the fallout of that would result in the Republic not being formed, right?

Timey Wimey Stuff..

gradii wrote: »

Besides how can you erase the hobus supernova which happened years ago, with a ship which actually cannot travel through time?

Annorax erased a system (or species) that ultimately resulted in the death of his wife. An antidote that existed before he erased the species that made it would have cured her, thus, he erased one system/planet/species, and the result of that was in real-time.

If Annorax (or someone else) erased the remnants of a device that cause a supernova, then using the above explanation, the supernova wouldn't have happened, and Romulus would still be here.

themetalstickman

Haven't read through the thread completely, but as the destruction of Romulus is part of hard-canon, I don't see this happening except as a quickly-corrected Temporal Ambassador-style mission. It can't be left as the "prime" timeline, because that would erase the alternate reality, and I don't think PWE/Cryptic has authorization to do that.

tekehd

If The ship is built and used, I imagine it'll end up playing out like Year of Hell, that is it created a lot of bad TRIBBLE from being used and eventyually the ships temporal core is breached and causes the ship to erase itself from the timline setting things back as they were.

kimony

gradii wrote: »

rosetyler51 wrote: »

I think OP has gone full Taris-tier crazy.

I agree. Besides how can you erase the hobus supernova which happened years ago, with a ship which actually cannot travel through time?

best you can do is erase the debris and then make the disaster an even bigger mystery...

Romulus is GONE. and should stay gone, even my Romulan character would agree on moving ahead.

That ship had the ability to erase or rather, remove "things" from the time stream thus altering anything, anyone, any event, even remotely touched by the removed "thing". Sometimes in unpredictable or unforeseeable ways.

Remove the cause of the supernova (person, place, thing, idea) from the time stream, the supernova does not happen, the timeline forges or follows a different path where the events that (in the old timeline) followed the supernova are now occurring or will occur (if not erased entirely) with the Romulan Empire still in tact (assuming some other event did not change the Romulans)

In order to picture a timeline without the supernova, it makes sense to me, you would have to go back and study the trends (political, personal, technological, etc, unto infinitude) of the galaxy just before the supernova occurred in order to attempt to extrapolate an accurate portrait.

orangeitis

themetalstickman wrote: »

Haven't read through the thread completely, but as the destruction of Romulus is part of hard-canon, I don't see this happening except as a quickly-corrected Temporal Ambassador-style mission. It can't be left as the "prime" timeline, because that would erase the alternate reality, and I don't think PWE/Cryptic has authorization to do that.

I'm pretty sure alternate timelines aren't "erased" if new ones are created. Else the STO timeline wouldn't exist.

warmaker001b

The more and more Time Travel or Time-Altering-Whatever-Gimmick you do, the more stupid things can become.

I know the Alliance has their backs to the wall against the Iconian threat but it's going to give the the Krenim the tool they need to carve out their Empire again. Not to mention, Temporal Warships are about to be let loose from Pandora's Box for everyone.

This technology is far more dangerous and it makes the Genesis Device look like a party favor for kids.

themetalstickman

orangeitis wrote: »

I'm pretty sure alternate timelines aren't "erased" if new ones are created. Else the STO timeline wouldn't exist.

I didn't think of that. I guess since the alternate reality is more along the lines of a parallel universe than a Year of Hell-style alternate timeline, it would remain the same.

duncanidaho11

warmaker001b wrote: »

The more and more Time Travel or Time-Altering-Whatever-Gimmick you do, the more stupid things can become.

I know the Alliance has their backs to the wall against the Iconian threat but it's going to give the the Krenim the tool they need to carve out their Empire again. Not to mention, Temporal Warships are about to be let loose from Pandora's Box for everyone.

This technology is far more dangerous and it makes the Genesis Device look like a party favor for kids.

Found a plot guide for the rest of this season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

Just add "temporal" to what comes next and there you go. :P

kodachikuno

flash525 wrote: »

Yeah, so anyone that has played the new "Time in a Bottle" feature episode will have concluded by now that the Time Ship built by Anorax in ST:Voyager is soon to be constructed again. Whilst we know that ship can't travel through time (so much as it takes events sideways) there's no reason now that someone from the Republic couldn't use one of those ships to sidestep around the events that killed all of those Romulans (and Remans).

Now we get to Save Romulus, there's no reason we can't get the Star Empire as a Faction.

PS: Someone screwed up in the writing department, cause I bet there's no agreeable reason not to do this [even though I know it'll come to nothing just because]

TRIBBLE & Giggles

There never was a good reason we didnt do that.. hell we even get introduced to the perfect star and the temporal mathematics for time warp in character.... unfortunately

angrytarg wrote: »

Sole reason the RR exists is because a) the star empire is considered a "villian faction" and players should only play "good" guys and b) it needs a somewhat desolate half-faction so STOs two-faction model still works. The RSE wouldn't be all that needy to appeal to the big ones.

^this... Remember kids if Faction X has a different opinion on things than you do, they are villains and to be portrayed as two-dimensional cartoonish idiot villains. Life according to Cryptic.

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

Found a plot guide for the rest of this season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

Just add "temporal" to what comes next and there you go. :P

thats hilarious... and true probably

championshewolf

kodachikuno wrote: »

^this... Remember kids if Faction X has a different opinion on things than you do, they are villains and to be portrayed as two-dimensional cartoonish idiot villains. Life according to Cryptic.

You must have not watched much Next Generation since that's exactly how the Romulan Star Empire was portrayed. And let's face it, any empire that uses assassination, imprisonment, and threats to keep the populous subdued can't be even remotely on the side of good.

kodachikuno

championshewolf wrote: »

You must have not watched much Next Generation since that's exactly how the Romulan Star Empire was portrayed. And let's face it, any empire that uses assassination, imprisonment, and threats to keep the populous subdued can't be even remotely on the side of good.

and apparently you only remember the parts you want to... yes that was PART of the portrayal of the RSE, not all of it. Oh and by your definition there isn't a government in existence today that can be remotely on the side of good. gg

championshewolf

kodachikuno wrote: »

championshewolf wrote: »

You must have not watched much Next Generation since that's exactly how the Romulan Star Empire was portrayed. And let's face it, any empire that uses assassination, imprisonment, and threats to keep the populous subdued can't be even remotely on the side of good.

and apparently you only remember the parts you want to... yes that was PART of the portrayal of the RSE, not all of it. Oh and by your definition there isn't a government in existence today that can be remotely on the side of good. gg

Nope, I am remember pretty much all of it. Even in the Unification episodes, it was pretty much clear that the Tal Shiar were in control. While Nemesis might have ended on a lovey dovey note, it was quite clear that the Empire was intent on debilitating the Federation, not being bestest friends it turned into at the end. So, in short, the same can be said for you. While the Tal Shiar was in control, and they were, the old Romulan Empire was not good.