test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Customization & Tailor restrictions – Role-Player’s perspective

135

Comments

  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    Yes, so I'd say, have uniform restrictions only in the (very) few places where you really could assume everyone you saw was on duty, and for those, do them properly - removing the few freak things currently in the Uniform category, like the Mirror Universe costumes and so on, that obviously aren't uniforms, or not Starfleet uniforms. That would also make the strange costumes elsewhere make more sense to those who find such things immersion-breaking - to me, if there were one or two areas where everyone you saw did wear uniform, areas where you did see people in off-duty clothes would just look like places where uniform wasn't required (wasn't required in-character, I mean); whereas currently, when very off-duty clothes appear even in areas where there's just no credible way on Earth they'd be allowed in reality, all it looks like is a reminder that the whole thing's a joke anyway. So it would increase the realism a lot for those people who it does bother, without much cost to everyone else - since most of the time you wouldn't be in those places and could wear whatever you pleased.

    And meanwhile, for all other areas, ditch all the clothing restrictions entirely. If the reason for them isn't that uniforms have to be worn, then what reason is there for them, in-character or out-of-character? I can't think of one.

    I didn't know that they'd further restricted bare feet. Well, that's just not on. Bare feet are a great way of pointing up that your alien isn't like a human, besides other possible reasons (Star Trek has a long tradition of hippies for heaven's sake). Bring back the feet! I'd say that bare feet should even be allowed in "Uniform" outfits - you can make an in-character case for it; there will be species that don't normally wear shoes (ones with hooves, say) and it would be silly to insist on them just for the look of the thing, so they'd be optional like skirts vs. trousers. I'd put nearly all the accessories into the "Uniform" category, too. Never mind Ro Laren, Uhura always used to wear earrings on duty, big green ones.

    Maybe this would be a good use for one of those polls, now we've had the chance to thrash it out a bit? Count up who's in favour of each measure - remove many or all of the category restrictions, make some areas uniform-only, both, or neither - and if it shows that in fact loads of people are annoyed by the category restrictions, that would demonstrate to Cryptic that this deserves attention.
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    Which Mirror Universe "costumes" are not uniforms? afaik, all of the Mirror Universe "costumes" most certainly ]are uniforms. Not Starfleet uniforms, no, or at least not the usual standard uniforms, but back in the TOS era, every ship had its own uniform regulations to some extent (at least with regard to what they wore on the left breast of their tunics). Why should I, my crew, or my fleet be bound by someone else's uniform regulations. I'm a Fleet Admiral, and in charge of my own fleet, ffs. Who's going to tell me "no"? Quinn? I view Quinn as of equal rank to me, so he cannot give me orders. The Federation President? On what grounds would he meddle in military protocols? Kirk was frequently on the bridge in a casual wraparound top. He would likely not attend a formal dinner or commissioning ceremony in that, but if he were a Fleet Admiral, he certainly could have done so. Eccentricity is not unknown in the higher ranks.

    And yes, Uhura wore earrings, but they weren't always big green creoles.
  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    Well, they're not uniforms in the universe the game is actually set in, is what I mean - to whatever extent there is a uniform code, they aren't any more a part of it than, say, the Formal Suit.

    Quinn: well, you have a point, I suppose, but then that just ties into the further weirdness of everyone being an admiral. So that doesn't really help much with the question of what's realistic - you're only justifying that piece of unrealism with another one. (Not talking about you - you actually do stand out, as a fleet leader - but almost every player in the game has the rank of admiral.)

    Kirk's top: I always thought it was part of the uniform, it certainly had the braid on it (though again I suppose there's nothing to stop a captain putting his insignia on his casual clothes, in the privacy of his own ship). (That reminds me, if Swimwear is still to be restricted to certain areas, on board your own ship should be added to the list of places it's allowed, I think. You're the captain, you're a billion miles from land, who's going to tell you not to?)

    Uhura's earrings: I'll have to pay closer attention :-) .

    All that said, if it had to be one or the other, I'm more interested in being able to mix and match categories than in having uniform-only areas. The latest patch notes suggest that the category restrictions are mainly because of clipping; but honestly, that's up to the player. From my experiments in the Foundry, not that many combinations do clip, anyway.
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    It's a game, not a military uniform simulator. Let us be rid of the restrictions I say!
    I need a beer.

  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    How's this sound:

    1. "Off duty" is made into a "catch all" category that has access to all clothing parts / options / etc. (Uniform, swimwear that's not 100% restricted to Risa, formal, club, etc.) Really, who's to say that while "off duty" the character's not comfortable in / lazy enough to change out of their top. Or they're doing something crazy like coloring the top of the Male Fed Mirror Universe "shirt" to be a leather jacket with white ascot?
    2. "Uniform" remains as it is now. Access to what your faction considered "approved components for wear as standard operational dress". So the "classic" uniform parts & all the kits / armors.
    3. Costume slot #1 is made to / retains it's status as "uniform components only"
    4. A "uniform" style outfit is mandated in certain areas where "immersion" would 100% mandate the use of the uniform. To me, that would be:
    ESD's Operations area. Basically, the entire "room" past the entrance with the waterfall
    The Great Hall in First City
    The "actual command wing" of New Romulus Command.
    Command offices of all "outlying bases" - OPS of DS9, T'nae's office, Wildman's(?) room on K7, D'Tan's room of the Flotilla, etc.

    You know, those rare/few places that you don't get into unless you have a purpose and are demonstrably "on duty"... By crossing the line which demarcates this area, (using my examples, ESD's "line" is that point if the wall from the transporter room was extended to seal the OPs area, the stairway that leads to the Great Hall, and the start of the hallway just left of the shuttlebay turbolift on NR Command) if you aren't in a "uniform grade" outfit, you're automatically dressed in your "slot 1 garb" until you leave the region, at which point you revert to your chosen costume.

    The rest, well, as people have pointed out, why can't I beam down to ESD in "club" wear to walk to C47? Or why would I need to be "in uniform" to go shopping at the Exchange? Many officers might allow (desire) their crew to beam down looking like the Men in Black (full formal wear for the entire BOff staff). ​​
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    The fact is, to make restrictions such as this, selective on the map, when it doesn't even have the restriction map-wide, rather than restricting the tailor, is harder. As long as people are lobbying for any kind of restrictions, we're gonna be at loss, as that seems to be a pattern. That conclusion makes me even-more-so firmly believe, that there should not be restrictions at all, in terms of mixing & matching the costume pieces, hair options, Borg implants - as long as all were obtained properly.

    People who have such a fear from unrestricting the tailor, that people would create bunch of Pikachu, Legolases and what have you - have some trust in the fact, that most of us are Trekkies & we're likely to use potential unrestricted stuff to create richer characters. Sure, you may see an odd character there and there - but how's that different from now? It is happening. Just move on & tend to your own characters. But, for Kahless sake, don't impose restrictions on everyone, because of how you have your own view on Trek and its' lore; that being the only way. It's unfair & selfish.
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    I'm not pushing for "my vision" of Trek. I'm pushing for Faction/Racial Identity. I get that some characters might not be Starfleet/KDF/Republic but I see it has selfish to ask for everything just because of that fact.

    Not sure if I told this story before in this thread. Someone once asked for what was pretty much the death of the idea of characters. They wanted the outfit system to become the "character" system. Your captains would not be Vulcan, Klingon, Orion, Ferengi, etc. They would be just some blob that takes whatever shape is wanted at the time. While a free tailor would not be on the same level as that idea I see it as a step toward that.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I'm not pushing for "my vision" of Trek. I'm pushing for Faction/Racial Identity. I get that some characters might not be Starfleet/KDF/Republic but I see it has selfish to ask for everything just because of that fact.

    Not sure if I told this story before in this thread. Someone once asked for what was pretty much the death of the idea of characters. They wanted the outfit system to become the "character" system. Your captains would not be Vulcan, Klingon, Orion, Ferengi, etc. They would be just some blob that takes whatever shape is wanted at the time. While a free tailor would not be on the same level as that idea I see it as a step toward that.

    You are pushing *your* vision of Trek/Faction identity on others. Refusing to see, that freedom to create for others does not take anything from you and your character. Refusing to see, that your desire to push for that "faction" identity, it's the way you view it, and you're OK to push that vision on others and their characters - now *that* is selfish - because most of people in this thread don't want that hard, to pressure their own views onto characters of others, like you do. You refuse to put even a smallest hint of trust into fellow Trekkies here - thinking the worst. That everyone wants to create some Legolas, Pikachu, whatever. But, I'm not gonna play that ping-pong with you anymore - as it feels I'm merely wasting my breath at this point - as no matter I say is going to resonate with you; as you're so set on taking options from others, that's it's just... unbelievable; having even the guts to call anyone selfish. Taking from others, based on your views, no matter what, is what is selfish. Allowing others to create Trek characters they want, more freely, thus giving more options & creativity, hardly forces *you* to do anything. It's other people's characters, that you should get no vote on, what they represent, and how they look like. Period.

    PS: Just so we are clear, nobody wants to make the Species choice irrelevant - so no, don't give Vulcans access to caitian tails, etc. The *biological* distinctiveness should remain intact - unless it's alien-gen character. But, hair, items, implants, clothes? No reason to restrict them.

    But, given you were even OK with saying 'Keep the Ferengi out of KHG', I feel that comment is more for others, than you. And exactly that statement from you, is what made me so upset, with your views, you want to force on others. I see no reason why a Ferengi could not be in KHG...
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    Tell me. Why did you pick your "line" in the sand? No swimsuits everywhere and no racemixing. You are pushing so much for "freedom" at any cost. Or maybe I'm misreading what you said. When it is too far for you? What is even the point of factions in your world?

    This is not about canon

    This is not about elves, pokemon, yodas, homers, starlords, iron men, or stormtroopers

    This is not about TOS, TAS, TNG, VOY, ENT, DS9, or the movies.

    This is about the Starfleet, the KDF, and the Republic Armed Forces of the year 2409 and beyond.

    I can not think of a faction based MMO that has ever done what you are asking for. Can you guess why?
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    Tell me. Why did you pick your "line" in the sand? No swimsuits everywhere and no racemixing. You are pushing so much for "freedom" at any cost. Or maybe I'm misreading what you said. When it is too far for you? What is even the point of factions in your world?
    I've not said restrict swimwear, I've only mentioned, I can somewhat relate to that restriction. But to impose it? No.

    You're trying to hold on the straw, friend. Races have their obvious meaning, when you make a choice at the beginning. That's the ONLY thing I can get behind, for real; to not allow biological-species parts to be accessible on just every character. As that'd take away the actual meaning of the species. As long as it's not a custom Alien-gen - then again, that should have access to any biological parts.

    Again, and for the last time - my idea was to unlock hair, clothes, kit-pieces, armors, Borg implants, to be possible to mix and match as we please.

    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    So species should matter but not faction? Got it I really don't why you hold one over the other but got it.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    So species should matter but not faction? Got it I really don't why you hold one over the other but got it.
    No. Faction lines were not mentioned anywhere. All of this is the unlock stuff you unlocked on your character. But yes, add Ferengi to KDF, since you were so uncool about them being in KHG. There's no reason for that to not happen in 25th century, in WAR! There's no reason to lock-put any species out of a Faction. Hope that clears it out.
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    That might (keyword MIGHT) be true in Starfleet but not so much the Republic or KDF. Gorn are fighting tooth and nail for a seat. Just opening the gates up to anyone would be seen as the spark that kickstart a civil war. There is also a point to be made that opening up races should mean opening up racial ships.

    It also weakens what each faction a faction.
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    dareau wrote: »
    How's this sound:

    2. "Uniform" remains as it is now. Access to what your faction considered "approved components for wear as standard operational dress". So the "classic" uniform parts & all the kits / armors.
    3. Costume slot #1 is made to / retains it's status as "uniform components only"
    4. A "uniform" style outfit is mandated in certain areas where "immersion" would 100% mandate the use of the uniform. To me, that would be:
    ESD's Operations area. Basically, the entire "room" past the entrance with the waterfall
    The Great Hall in First City
    The "actual command wing" of New Romulus Command.
    Command offices of all "outlying bases" - OPS of DS9, T'nae's office, Wildman's(?) room on K7, D'Tan's room of the Flotilla, etc.

    You know, those rare/few places that you don't get into unless you have a purpose and are demonstrably "on duty"... By crossing the line which demarcates this area, (using my examples, ESD's "line" is that point if the wall from the transporter room was extended to seal the OPs area, the stairway that leads to the Great Hall, and the start of the hallway just left of the shuttlebay turbolift on NR Command) if you aren't in a "uniform grade" outfit, you're automatically dressed in your "slot 1 garb" until you leave the region, at which point you revert to your chosen costume.

    The rest, well, as people have pointed out, why can't I beam down to ESD in "club" wear to walk to C47? Or why would I need to be "in uniform" to go shopping at the Exchange? Many officers might allow (desire) their crew to beam down looking like the Men in Black (full formal wear for the entire BOff staff). ​​

    Regarding 2:
    So those who want to RP as Mirror Universe characters, mercenaries, and those in Mirror Universe fleets, are just out of luck?

    Regarding 3:
    Why?

    Regarding 4:

    Let me preface what I'm going to say about this with a brief bit of biographical info. I've been RPing since the late 70s, when the 1st edition AD&D hardbacks were just coming out and we all still had D&D and The Dragon. I know what immersion is. I also know that in an MMO, whether it be MMORPG or otherwise, attempting to place restrictions on others for the sake of "immersion" is likely to encourage some players to do whatever they can in an effort to subvert those restrictions. If they can't do it by some mechanical means, they'll simply troll the snot out of anyone trying to RP. In this game, unfortunately, such griefers have a number of ways of doing both, and in order to avert one of those, we have to spend GPL, when the burden shouldn't be on us, but on the company, to code things in such a manner as to promote freedom of choice.
    In addition and more to the point, I'm an RPer, and I like to believe that i have at least a decent imagination, so I have to wonder how weak a person's imagination must be in order for their "immersion" to be broken by someone walking past on ESD wearing pajamas, a string bikini, a Mirror Universe uniform, etc. If you're struggling for some sort of lifebuoy in your immersion after seeing something like that, let me suggestion that ESD probably has holosuites somewhere ... Pretty sure it used to, anyway, and even if there isn't one there now after the revamp, what's to keep your imagination from concocting one in order to explain away the dissonance?





    the-world-of-reality-has-its-limits-the-world-of-imagination-is-boundless-quote-1.jpg
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I'm not pushing for "my vision" of Trek. I'm pushing for Faction/Racial Identity. I get that some characters might not be Starfleet/KDF/Republic but I see it has selfish to ask for everything just because of that fact.

    Not sure if I told this story before in this thread. Someone once asked for what was pretty much the death of the idea of characters. They wanted the outfit system to become the "character" system. Your captains would not be Vulcan, Klingon, Orion, Ferengi, etc. They would be just some blob that takes whatever shape is wanted at the time. While a free tailor would not be on the same level as that idea I see it as a step toward that.

    0HSq22M.jpg
    But, given you were even OK with saying 'Keep the Ferengi out of KHG', I feel that comment is more for others, than you. And exactly that statement from you, is what made me so upset, with your views, you want to force on others. I see no reason why a Ferengi could not be in KHG...

    latest?cb=20050921221952&path-prefix=en
    This is about the Starfleet, the KDF, and the Republic Armed Forces of the year 2409 and beyond.

    I can not think of a faction based MMO that has ever done what you are asking for. Can you guess why?

    "Romulan Republic Forces."

    Referring to STO as "a faction-based MMO" is a bit of a stretch.
  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    I can see Rosetyler's point, actually; it's not at all silly to expect that quite a lot of players will dress their characters in ludicrous ways, as elves, rock stars or what have you, because they already DO, I see loads of 'em. But that's the point - that ship has already sailed. I don't think you could look any sillier, or more out of place, in parts from a mixture of categories than some imaginative players already do in nothing but Off-Duty parts. What it would do is enable RP aficionados who are dressing up as some actual thing from Star Trek to do so more accurately - and so look less out of place and more in keeping with the faction.

    Protogoth, I'm not sure how the idea that ESD has holodecks helps? If you're saying that you can "explain" the strange outfits by saying they've just come out of the holodeck, well, why they might have wanted to wear them isn't the problem - the problem's why they'd be allowed to keep wearing them in a military headquarters.

    Dareau, you put all that a whole lot better than I did :-) And yes, the main concourse area of ESD should definitely allow non-uniform clothes.
    The fact is, to make restrictions such as this, selective on the map, when it doesn't even have the restriction map-wide, rather than restricting the tailor, is harder. As long as people are lobbying for any kind of restrictions, we're gonna be at loss, as that seems to be a pattern.
    Are you sure? I mean, we already have some costumes restricted by area - the Clubs for the Club Wear and Risa for the Swimwear. How do you know it's more difficult, have you been involved in this kind of programming? (I haven't so I wouldn't know.)
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    Truth be told I should just step out of this thread. So parting words.

    Factions was and while some might disagree still is a big part of STO. That is why I call it a faction-based MMO.

    You would have had a better point with almost any other Ferengi besides Quark, one ep not withstanding.

    I chose the term Republic Armed Forces out of respect of the races that fight for the Republic that are not Romulan.

    Last point, I thought you of all people would be for trying to keep (or in the Republic's case gain ;) ) faction identity.

    I will say again. You're are right, the tailor does fixing, I just disagree on your idea of "fixing"
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    wombat140 wrote: »
    Are you sure? I mean, we already have some costumes restricted by area - the Clubs for the Club Wear and Risa for the Swimwear. How do you know it's more difficult, have you been involved in this kind of programming? (I haven't so I wouldn't know.)
    I can definitelly tell it's more difficult (and probably more prone to occassional glitching), than just restricting the outfits - otherwise, why this wasn't done, the way people have proposed it? It would still be more reasonable than artifically locking out off-duty to, mix n' match more freely.

    Frankly, as far as *I* am concerned personally, is, if we were allowed to mix n' match off-duty freely, no matter if it's uniform piece, armor piece, whatever piece, I'd be fine, alongside of unlocking outfits & color palettes unavailable to us (Borg Boff suit for our Captains, limitations of colors in MACO armor & Omega armor as a prime example of this), while only restricting swimwear to Risa, alongside of removing arbitrary restrictions of pieces which should not be restricted to any character (Borg implants), upon LTS purchase - I'd be happy.

    But, in the same spirit, I cannot, with a clear conscience, request restricting swimwear to Risa, because I* dislike it being worn anywhere else... then I'd be just imposing MY views on others, by wanting their stuff restricted, because of my personal view, for their characters.
    wombat140 wrote: »
    What it would do is enable RP aficionados who are dressing up as some actual thing from Star Trek to do so more accurately - and so look less out of place ..

    Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. A lot of people interested in more free-creating are of this mindset, rather than the opposite. *shrug*
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    As I say, from the way they talk in the release notes, I think they see the category restrictions as more because of clipping, which restricting by area wouldn't fix. I think that's a silly reason myself - if some combinations clip, that's the players' look-out.
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Truth be told I should just step out of this thread. So parting words.

    Factions was and while some might disagree still is a big part of STO. That is why I call it a faction-based MMO.

    You would have had a better point with almost any other Ferengi besides Quark, one ep not withstanding.

    I chose the term Republic Armed Forces out of respect of the races that fight for the Republic that are not Romulan.

    Last point, I thought you of all people would be for trying to keep (or in the Republic's case gain ;) ) faction identity.

    I will say again. You're are right, the tailor does fixing, I just disagree on your idea of "fixing"

    Factions:
    1. When STO started, there were no factions, or, at most, there was a single faction for players, and multiple factions for NPCs.
    2. Once KDF was added (as a "PvP faction") for players, the game was still not "faction-based," because the Feds still had much greater opportunities, and things were biased in favor of the Fed player (that situation has not changed yet, although it did get a little better for a while ...).
    3. The RRF wasn't even given full faction status.
    4. Even if STO had 2, 2.5, or 3 full factions which were moderately balanced, the description of the game as "faction-based" would still be inaccurate, because it would not be a purely PvP game where everything would be determined by faction choice.

    Feh'rengsu in KHG:
    I was simply showing a canon precedence.

    RRF:
    The name of the polity is "New Romulan Republic" (or, for some, "Romulan Republic"), not "Reman Republic," nor "Raptor Republic," nor "Romulan And Other Republic." The military of the Republic is explicitly named "RRF," which stands for "Romulan Republic Forces." This may not be "fair," but that's how it is, and Remans have only been distinct from Romulans in-canon since Nemesis.

    Faction Identity:
    Not every citizen is a member of the military. RPers often choose to play as rebels, mercenaries, merchants, etc. I despise the Tal'Shiar, and I used to get annoyed when I saw people at Raenasa ih'Mol'Rihan (New Romulus Command) wearing Tal'Shiar uniforms. I will confess that I still find it mildly irritating, but I'm also not devoid of imagination sufficient to ignore them or see them as some of our own personnel returning from a mission of infiltration, or in the midst of such a mission, who simply have not yet changed back into their proper uniforms. Or even members of a fleet which has adapted that uniform for their own use.
    wombat140 wrote: »
    Protogoth, I'm not sure how the idea that ESD has holodecks helps? If you're saying that you can "explain" the strange outfits by saying they've just come out of the holodeck, well, why they might have wanted to wear them isn't the problem - the problem's why they'd be allowed to keep wearing them in a military headquarters.

    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying your imagination should be able to come up with.

    And is ESD a military headquarters? It's a spacedock. Diplomatic affairs have been held there. Traders and merchants go there. Mercenaries who work for Starfleet go there. Does it have military facilities? Of course. Does it have a military commander? Obviously. But is it, per se, a military headquarters? I have my doubts. It's a spacedock for Earth. If it were a military headquarters, surely it would named something like "Starfleet Command Spacedock" or "Starfleet Command Headquarters."
    wombat140 wrote: »
    I mean, we already have some costumes restricted by area - the Clubs for the Club Wear and Risa for the Swimwear. How do you know it's more difficult, have you been involved in this kind of programming? (I haven't so I wouldn't know.)

    And yet, you can wear Clubwear all over ESD, not just in Club 47.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    wombat140 wrote: »
    What it would do is enable RP aficionados who are dressing up as some actual thing from Star Trek to do so more accurately - and so look less out of place ..
    wombat140 wrote: »
    As I say, from the way they talk in the release notes, I think they see the category restrictions as more because of clipping, which restricting by area wouldn't fix. I think that's a silly reason myself - if some combinations clip, that's the players' look-out.
    That's a nonsense, and only an excuse - in Foundry character editor, you can have, ie. "Uniform-Loose category" in your outfit-top & "Omega Armor" as lower (pants) category set. Guess what. Most of these combinations pose no problems. Sure, it's not perfect in few cases, but we'd rather see more options, with rather mostly insignificant issues, than less of them. And that's what the devs are not willing to hear us on about, unfortunately. :(

    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    The fact is, to make restrictions such as this, selective on the map, when it doesn't even have the restriction map-wide, rather than restricting the tailor, is harder. As long as people are lobbying for any kind of restrictions, we're gonna be at loss, as that seems to be a pattern. That conclusion makes me even-more-so firmly believe, that there should not be restrictions at all, in terms of mixing & matching the costume pieces, hair options, Borg implants - as long as all were obtained properly.

    People who have such a fear from unrestricting the tailor, that people would create bunch of Pikachu, Legolases and what have you - have some trust in the fact, that most of us are Trekkies & we're likely to use potential unrestricted stuff to create richer characters. Sure, you may see an odd character there and there - but how's that different from now? It is happening. Just move on & tend to your own characters. But, for Kahless sake, don't impose restrictions on everyone, because of how you have your own view on Trek and its' lore; that being the only way. It's unfair & selfish.

    Did you really read my post?

    TL-DR version: "Swimwear" Category = everything in tailor. "Off Duty" = everything but Risa only Swimsuits. "Uniform" = what's there right now.

    In those handful of "militarisitc duty areas" like Commander's Office areas, etc., the uniform restriction would be implemented. Slot would have to be reserved to allow said restriction to function, but right off the top of my head it is so restricted already.

    Everywhere else is fair game for off duty, aka "everything but Risa Swimwear, at once if so desired.

    More for you to read below...
    protogoth wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »
    How's this sound:

    2. "Uniform" remains as it is now. Access to what your faction considered "approved components for wear as standard operational dress". So the "classic" uniform parts & all the kits / armors.
    3. Costume slot #1 is made to / retains it's status as "uniform components only"
    4. A "uniform" style outfit is mandated in certain areas where "immersion" would 100% mandate the use of the uniform. To me, that would be:
    ESD's Operations area. Basically, the entire "room" past the entrance with the waterfall
    The Great Hall in First City
    The "actual command wing" of New Romulus Command.
    Command offices of all "outlying bases" - OPS of DS9, T'nae's office, Wildman's(?) room on K7, D'Tan's room of the Flotilla, etc.

    You know, those rare/few places that you don't get into unless you have a purpose and are demonstrably "on duty"... By crossing the line which demarcates this area, (using my examples, ESD's "line" is that point if the wall from the transporter room was extended to seal the OPs area, the stairway that leads to the Great Hall, and the start of the hallway just left of the shuttlebay turbolift on NR Command) if you aren't in a "uniform grade" outfit, you're automatically dressed in your "slot 1 garb" until you leave the region, at which point you revert to your chosen costume.

    The rest, well, as people have pointed out, why can't I beam down to ESD in "club" wear to walk to C47? Or why would I need to be "in uniform" to go shopping at the Exchange? Many officers might allow (desire) their crew to beam down looking like the Men in Black (full formal wear for the entire BOff staff).

    Regarding 2:
    So those who want to RP as Mirror Universe characters, mercenaries, and those in Mirror Universe fleets, are just out of luck?

    Regarding 3:
    Why?

    Regarding 4:

    Let me preface what I'm going to say about this with a brief bit of biographical info. I've been RPing since the late 70s, when the 1st edition AD&D hardbacks were just coming out and we all still had D&D and The Dragon. I know what immersion is. I also know that in an MMO, whether it be MMORPG or otherwise, attempting to place restrictions on others for the sake of "immersion" is likely to encourage some players to do whatever they can in an effort to subvert those restrictions. If they can't do it by some mechanical means, they'll simply troll the snot out of anyone trying to RP. In this game, unfortunately, such griefers have a number of ways of doing both, and in order to avert one of those, we have to spend GPL, when the burden shouldn't be on us, but on the company, to code things in such a manner as to promote freedom of choice.
    In addition and more to the point, I'm an RPer, and I like to believe that i have at least a decent imagination, so I have to wonder how weak a person's imagination must be in order for their "immersion" to be broken by someone walking past on ESD wearing pajamas, a string bikini, a Mirror Universe uniform, etc. If you're struggling for some sort of lifebuoy in your immersion after seeing something like that, let me suggestion that ESD probably has holosuites somewhere ... Pretty sure it used to, anyway, and even if there isn't one there now after the revamp, what's to keep your imagination from concocting one in order to explain away the dissonance?

    2. Mentioned above. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Sorry...

    3. To make 100% sure that people would have a uniform slot for those times they go to the "uniform only Command" area.

    4. Many forums ago, I learned that when there's a massive divide over something - proposals that don't even acknowledge the other side's "issue" - get lambasted as "one sided". Ones that recognize the "other side", even if it's a cursory "throwing of bone" at their issue in the proposal, people begin to listen and "counter propose" instead of spout rhetoric and maintain the argument / status quo.

    For the record, my "main" is running, as his "uniform", a rig I nicknamed "biker leathers". ToS Male Mirror Top, colored black with silver "piping" for a zipper & a pure white ascot around neck. Best look I can get for a "Biker's leather jacket" from the uniform category. Set up lower half with "regular pants" colored as close to denim as possible (jeans), accessorize with the Ent Mirror "dagger" belt & Ferengi Energy Whip / Pistols to taste... (Note, this looks great on the Heirarchy "potato head" BOff if you've got a customizable one - and it avoids all the clipping issues / nonexistent textures with his underlying mesh that cost him customizability...)

    So I'm far from one who's "immersion" is nailed by seeing toons running around Khitomer Accord in evening dresses and heels.

    However, as I said, my "training" won't let me make a major proposal without at least having a "bone" for the opposite side. In this case, the "opposite side" seems dominated by the "mah immersion in this hear Star Trek game where the stars wear uniforms whenever they're 'working' is busted when I see people out of uniform (and they're not at a "designated relaxation area" like Drozana, club 47, and the two event maps)". (misspellings in the quote intentional to give the accent some textual recognition)

    So, what's the least "invasive" (and coincidentally most lore-appropriate) restrictions I can "give" to the "mah immersion" crowd while still doing things like run around in a biker leather outfit - or something even more "interesting"?

    Command areas = Uniform only. Everywhere else = uniform optional.

    Give the "mah immersion" crowd a space to hang around and see everyone in uniform like on TV, give the rest of the world who wants to dress in whatever they want what they're looking for. Nice, simple "compromise" that makes many a proposal something to rally around...

    And notice, I even spelled out why all of ESD / K7 / Gandala / DS9 / Sierra 39 etc. "deserves" to be left as "off duty recognized as legal" zones to help counter "opposite side creep" that always slips in when someone makes a "very reasonable" proposal that "sacrifices" something to show the other side they're not just being ignored...​​
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    dareau wrote: »

    Did you really read my post?

    TL-DR version: "Swimwear" Category = everything in tailor. "Off Duty" = everything but Risa only Swimsuits. "Uniform" = what's there right now.

    In those handful of "militarisitc duty areas" like Commander's Office areas, etc., the uniform restriction would be implemented. Slot would have to be reserved to allow said restriction to function, but right off the top of my head it is so restricted already.

    Everywhere else is fair game for off duty, aka "everything but Risa Swimwear, at once if so desired.

    More for you to read below...​​

    My posts were mostly not aimed at you, more at people like rosetyler51, who are keen on restricting stuff for, as you said "mah immersion". Your proposal is still much better off than what some people seem to be entitled about, in terms of dictating what characters of others are "supposed" to wear, for these people's version of "mah immersion"...

    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    Cool... Just the timing of the posts made it seem that it was aimed a little more at me and even "attempting" to put a restriction in.​​
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    dareau wrote: »
    Cool... Just the timing of the posts made it seem that it was aimed a little more at me and even "attempting" to put a restriction in.​​

    Ah, nono, that was not the intent! :blush:
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    dareau wrote: »

    Did you really read my post?

    TL-DR version: "Swimwear" Category = everything in tailor. "Off Duty" = everything but Risa only Swimsuits. "Uniform" = what's there right now.

    In those handful of "militarisitc duty areas" like Commander's Office areas, etc., the uniform restriction would be implemented. Slot would have to be reserved to allow said restriction to function, but right off the top of my head it is so restricted already.

    Everywhere else is fair game for off duty, aka "everything but Risa Swimwear, at once if so desired.

    More for you to read below...​​

    My posts were mostly not aimed at you, more at people like rosetyler51, who are keen on restricting stuff for, as you said "mah immersion". Your proposal is still much better off than what some people seem to be entitled about, in terms of dictating what characters of others are "supposed" to wear, for these people's version of "mah immersion"...

    I'm insanely petty and you mocked me...by missing my point by a mile. neato

    This was the point where I would try again to get it through your skull that what I'm "fighting" for but much like the borg this thread has worn me down to the point where I simply don't care. You have adapted so time for the next part. Assimilate, take what you out of three factions I truly care for and cast aside what goes again your "Trek". I will do as you have ordered and put on my blinders.


    "All a story needs is someone to tell it and someone to listen. When everyone seeks to tell a story at once this simple rule is broken."
    -Wisdom of a Fool

    PS: I always try to end on a smile so a joke. Borg and Romulans working together. That was quick. I thought it would take at least a year before Star Empire is back.
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    dareau wrote: »

    Did you really read my post?

    TL-DR version: "Swimwear" Category = everything in tailor. "Off Duty" = everything but Risa only Swimsuits. "Uniform" = what's there right now.

    In those handful of "militarisitc duty areas" like Commander's Office areas, etc., the uniform restriction would be implemented. Slot would have to be reserved to allow said restriction to function, but right off the top of my head it is so restricted already.

    Everywhere else is fair game for off duty, aka "everything but Risa Swimwear, at once if so desired.

    More for you to read below...​​

    My posts were mostly not aimed at you, more at people like rosetyler51, who are keen on restricting stuff for, as you said "mah immersion". Your proposal is still much better off than what some people seem to be entitled about, in terms of dictating what characters of others are "supposed" to wear, for these people's version of "mah immersion"...

    I'm insanely petty and you mocked me...by missing my point by a mile. neato

    This was the point where I would try again to get it through your skull that what I'm "fighting" for but much like the borg this thread has worn me down to the point where I simply don't care. You have adapted so time for the next part. Assimilate, take what you out of three factions I truly care for and cast aside what goes again your "Trek". I will do as you have ordered and put on my blinders.


    "All a story needs is someone to tell it and someone to listen. When everyone seeks to tell a story at once this simple rule is broken."
    -Wisdom of a Fool

    PS: I always try to end on a smile so a joke. Borg and Romulans working together. That was quick. I thought it would take at least a year before Star Empire is back.

    I have read this thread all the way through, but perhaps I missed something. Where did anyone suggest taking anything they want from all three factions? Is someone asking for Fed players to have access to KHG? For KDF players to have access to MACO? For either to have access to my glorious TOS Romulan minidress or the Romulan Republic 1/2 uniforms? For RRF players to be allowed to wear TOS Starfleet uniforms? I haven't seen that. Are you perhaps again engaging in Slippery Slope fallacy, or is this Bifurcation fallacy along the lines of "all or nothing"?
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    protogoth wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »

    Did you really read my post?

    TL-DR version: "Swimwear" Category = everything in tailor. "Off Duty" = everything but Risa only Swimsuits. "Uniform" = what's there right now.

    In those handful of "militarisitc duty areas" like Commander's Office areas, etc., the uniform restriction would be implemented. Slot would have to be reserved to allow said restriction to function, but right off the top of my head it is so restricted already.

    Everywhere else is fair game for off duty, aka "everything but Risa Swimwear, at once if so desired.

    More for you to read below...​​

    My posts were mostly not aimed at you, more at people like rosetyler51, who are keen on restricting stuff for, as you said "mah immersion". Your proposal is still much better off than what some people seem to be entitled about, in terms of dictating what characters of others are "supposed" to wear, for these people's version of "mah immersion"...

    I'm insanely petty and you mocked me...by missing my point by a mile. neato

    This was the point where I would try again to get it through your skull that what I'm "fighting" for but much like the borg this thread has worn me down to the point where I simply don't care. You have adapted so time for the next part. Assimilate, take what you out of three factions I truly care for and cast aside what goes again your "Trek". I will do as you have ordered and put on my blinders.


    "All a story needs is someone to tell it and someone to listen. When everyone seeks to tell a story at once this simple rule is broken."
    -Wisdom of a Fool

    PS: I always try to end on a smile so a joke. Borg and Romulans working together. That was quick. I thought it would take at least a year before Star Empire is back.

    I have read this thread all the way through, but perhaps I missed something. Where did anyone suggest taking anything they want from all three factions? Is someone asking for Fed players to have access to KHG? For KDF players to have access to MACO? For either to have access to my glorious TOS Romulan minidress or the Romulan Republic 1/2 uniforms? For RRF players to be allowed to wear TOS Starfleet uniforms? I haven't seen that. Are you perhaps again engaging in Slippery Slope fallacy, or is this Bifurcation fallacy along the lines of "all or nothing"?

    Between your and Miss Darkrider's posts that is how I took this so called "freedom". Doing away with all faction ties in the tailor. And that is what I don't want to happen. I will say this once again. The system is broken but it was put there for a reason. To give choosing a faction a sense of meaning.

    That why I'm in this thread and that is what I want to protect.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    protogoth wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »

    Did you really read my post?

    TL-DR version: "Swimwear" Category = everything in tailor. "Off Duty" = everything but Risa only Swimsuits. "Uniform" = what's there right now.

    In those handful of "militarisitc duty areas" like Commander's Office areas, etc., the uniform restriction would be implemented. Slot would have to be reserved to allow said restriction to function, but right off the top of my head it is so restricted already.

    Everywhere else is fair game for off duty, aka "everything but Risa Swimwear, at once if so desired.

    More for you to read below...

    My posts were mostly not aimed at you, more at people like rosetyler51, who are keen on restricting stuff for, as you said "mah immersion". Your proposal is still much better off than what some people seem to be entitled about, in terms of dictating what characters of others are "supposed" to wear, for these people's version of "mah immersion"...

    I'm insanely petty and you mocked me...by missing my point by a mile. neato

    This was the point where I would try again to get it through your skull that what I'm "fighting" for but much like the borg this thread has worn me down to the point where I simply don't care. You have adapted so time for the next part. Assimilate, take what you out of three factions I truly care for and cast aside what goes again your "Trek". I will do as you have ordered and put on my blinders.


    "All a story needs is someone to tell it and someone to listen. When everyone seeks to tell a story at once this simple rule is broken."
    -Wisdom of a Fool

    PS: I always try to end on a smile so a joke. Borg and Romulans working together. That was quick. I thought it would take at least a year before Star Empire is back.

    I have read this thread all the way through, but perhaps I missed something. Where did anyone suggest taking anything they want from all three factions? Is someone asking for Fed players to have access to KHG? For KDF players to have access to MACO? For either to have access to my glorious TOS Romulan minidress or the Romulan Republic 1/2 uniforms? For RRF players to be allowed to wear TOS Starfleet uniforms? I haven't seen that. Are you perhaps again engaging in Slippery Slope fallacy, or is this Bifurcation fallacy along the lines of "all or nothing"?

    Between your and Miss Darkrider's posts that is how I took this so called "freedom". Doing away with all faction ties in the tailor. And that is what I don't want to happen. I will say this once again. The system is broken but it was put there for a reason. To give choosing a faction a sense of meaning.

    That why I'm in this thread and that is what I want to protect.
    626OfBi.jpg
    A nice example of groan-inducing NPC, with outfit we can’t mix & match.

    If I'm not mistaken, this "character" is wearing the Feddie ToS Fem Top and a RR Skirt, with flower accents.

    As such, I can see how Rosetyler "thought" that part and parcel of this thread includes "tearing down the faction walls".

    However, this image is the only place, to the best of my memory of what I've read in this thread, that a stunt like that occured. At least until I came in and posted my "everything in tailor" thoughts...

    I "automatically factored" that these "mergers / reclassifications" would be built off of the current availability schemes so no Feds in KDF clothes or Gorns in Orion String-kinis. However, without the clarity and this picture floating around out there, I can see the confusion...

    So let's make this "officially-official":

    Are we OK with taking a character's "entire outfit accessibility" and placing it in the "swimwear" tab, removing only the Risa-only swimsuits for the "off duty" tab, and leaving the current uniform accessibility alone? Then making the "command" areas of the various bases "uniform only" regions, while the remainder of the game world is accessible to "off duty" outfits...​​
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    Actually... that skirt has no reason to be restricted to any faction. Yes, keep the 'iconic' apparels like uniforms locked to factions if need be. But, when an item can be made look as generic clothing, such as this skirt in question? No reason for it to be locked, in an off-duty outfits. Keep the faction uniforms, which are 'iconic' to that faction to them, but... again, other stuff, let people have it, I'd imagine. Too much? I personally don't think so. But, generic outfits, that's not even breaking any "faction walls"...
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

This discussion has been closed.