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Customization & Tailor restrictions – Role-Player’s perspective

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  • turbomagnusturbomagnus Member Posts: 3,479 Arc User
    That's like how, when the ideas for assigning BOffs to Department Head and First Officer positions giving bonuses - or even being able to command other ships an Admiral-rank player might have that they're not flying personally - were floating around and one of them was the 'convert First Officer to playable Captain' idea that would have allowed playable Breen, Borg, Jem'hadar, etc... part of what stopped it from going anywhere was CBS not wanting playable Android captains.

    Makes no sense to us, but they're the ones with the final say and all... Just wish that the 'final say' had a bit more explanation than just "Because we said so" sometimes..
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
    ^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
  • canis36canis36 Member Posts: 737 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Why do CBS seem to be against a t6 Connie? It goes against the aesthetics of a Starfleet in the year 2409.

    Because someone in the licencing department doesn't like it. There are several other T5-6 ships from the 23rd and even 22nd century in the game.

    Not many from Starfleet? Also you want me to believe that someone hates the Connie so much that they would turn down the pure hand over fist levels of cash an endgame Connie would bring in?

    The reason we don't have a T5-6 Connie is the same reason the model never appeared in TNG. It's too iconic in the minds of CBS. It is the definitive hero ship in Star Trek that everyone recognizes. That was the reasoning they had for not having it appear on-screen in TNG or DS9. It's also the reasoning they used to deny a T5 Connie when STO was younger and less well established. I can only assume it's the same reasoning they haven't allowed for a T6 variant.

    It's still possible that we might get such a ship in the future, but it's highly unlikely that we will, and if we do it will probably be through some sort of limited time one-off distribution such as the summer event (which makes me wonder if CBS might have been a little unhappy with the recurring availability of summer/winter event ships).
  • turbomagnusturbomagnus Member Posts: 3,479 Arc User
    Back on the subject of restrictions, specifically section "Unavailable outfits. ARGH!" of the original post, I've found another example of a costume piece that's already in the game for NPCs, yet aren't available for players to use for the own Captains and BOffs - the Acamarian Clan Rebel (male) that appears during the Acamar System Patrol has a long, unkept hairstyle with long bangs that cover most of his forehead but still leaves his head-ridges somewhat visible... in other words, a style that would work for the other races with such like Romulans and Klingons, but we don't have access to it.
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
    ^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    Back on the subject of restrictions, specifically section "Unavailable outfits. ARGH!" of the original post, I've found another example of a costume piece that's already in the game for NPCs, yet aren't available for players to use for the own Captains and BOffs - the Acamarian Clan Rebel (male) that appears during the Acamar System Patrol has a long, unkept hairstyle with long bangs that cover most of his forehead but still leaves his head-ridges somewhat visible... in other words, a style that would work for the other races with such like Romulans and Klingons, but we don't have access to it.
    There are so many examples of outfits we can't have, that it almost hurts.

    Also, for people debating ships here, and their arguments for canon or non-canon; it's undebatable fact ships which aren't even canon and reasonable to be piloted by players, and yet, we fly them, so if costumes are or are not 'canon' is imho invalid argument, as well as again, people who want pure canon, CAN have canon for *their* characters, but these same people shouldn't be able to dictate what *others* want to do with their characters - can you perhaps make another topic? I'd like to keep this topic constructive and related purely to tailor of characters; thank you very much. :-)

    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

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  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    I'm willing to say that I'm using slippy slope logic here but in your "freedom for all" world where is the lines? Gorns can dress up like the guy that most likely beat up their grandpa, Andorians can look like frostbitten Orions, Starfleet's finest will now look like they are forever trapped in a poorly thought out costume party.

    Lets try something. Your captain and crew is the first new Star Trek series in years to show on TV. How would the people without talking roles dress while filming? Yes it is mean to reduce fellow players into background characters but true be told until I talk to them that is kind of what they are, in my captain's story anyway. And I know, there is already people who are just so eye grabbing with what we can already do in the tailor, but they have limits to keep them somewhat in check and they are not the bulk of the playerbase.

    Someone once called STO a Star Trek Themepark, pretty much right, something to add to it. Players more than just visitors, we are part of the show. When enough of us simply stop being part of it people who think about coming to the themepark might not.

    One last bit before I start to ramble even worst. This is how this looks to me:

    You:The lines are broken, we should get rid of them

    Me:The lines are broken, we should fix them

    You:Why do you want to keep broken lines

    Me:Lines are useful

    You:These lines are not useful

    Me:That is we fi-

    You:Get rid of them

    Me: *thinking...and singing a little inside my head* Hello Darkness my oldest friend
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I'm willing to say that I'm using slippy slope logic here but in your "freedom for all" world where is the lines? Gorns can dress up like the guy that most likely beat up their grandpa, Andorians can look like frostbitten Orions, Starfleet's finest will now look like they are forever trapped in a poorly thought out costume party.

    Lets try something. Your captain and crew is the first new Star Trek series in years to show on TV. How would the people without talking roles dress while filming? Yes it is mean to reduce fellow players into background characters but true be told until I talk to them that is kind of what they are, in my captain's story anyway. And I know, there is already people who are just so eye grabbing with what we can already do in the tailor, but they have limits to keep them somewhat in check and they are not the bulk of the playerbase.

    Someone once called STO a Star Trek Themepark, pretty much right, something to add to it. Players more than just visitors, we are part of the show. When enough of us simply stop being part of it people who think about coming to the themepark might not.

    One last bit before I start to ramble even worst. This is how this looks to me:

    You:The lines are broken, we should get rid of them

    Me:The lines are broken, we should fix them

    You:Why do you want to keep broken lines

    Me:Lines are useful

    You:These lines are not useful

    Me:That is we fi-

    You:Get rid of them

    Me: *thinking...and singing a little inside my head* Hello Darkness my oldest friend

    My point is - The lines should not be dictated by bunch of trolls or even canon "militant" fanatics. People like me, the roleplayers (not to be mistaken by the nasty eRPers), want as many outfits as possible, but within reason. We want to be able to use those Odyssey pants with some other off-duty costumes, like the shirts. We want to be able to be use the Borg implants on any characters & species, as long as LTS have been unlocked, the legit way. We want to be able to put kit-pieces on the off-duty outfits. I could go on, but these few, as an example, are not unreasonable.

    I think you highly misunderstand me here.

    I CAN understand, why bikini/swimwear is restricted, although I also won't impose my own "standards" on that onto anyone, no matter how I personally dislike skimpy barbies - this has logic nonetheless. But other outfits, like tops and pants, implants, and even hair, they have no reason to be restricted. Hope that clears it out.

    PS: Also, the outfits are well-within the Trek lore; and none of them are as lore-breaking as Tholian ships or Udine ships being flown by the Humanoid Starfleet Captain. Your logic is still very flawled. If they wanted to chop on the biggest non-canon stuff, they should start there. In other words - let people portray characters from Trek THEY want, dictating them what characters they can and can't portray is a bit weak.
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • turbomagnusturbomagnus Member Posts: 3,479 Arc User
    In other words, not a complete removal of restrictions, but rather a systems analysis of them; looking at each one and deciding whether or not it serves an effective purpose (i.e. swimsuits being unmixable with uniforms) or is merely arbitrary (Orion PCs and BOffs having no access to 'Boots - high, thigh' despite NPCs of the same race and gender having such), did I read that right?
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
    ^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    In other words, not a complete removal of restrictions, but rather a systems analysis of them; looking at each one and deciding whether or not it serves an effective purpose (i.e. swimsuits being unmixable with uniforms) or is merely arbitrary (Orion PCs and BOffs having no access to 'Boots - high, thigh' despite NPCs of the same race and gender having such), did I read that right?
    I'd be willing to accept swimwear being somewhat restricted... but other outfits? No. No gender restriction or even racial one, on outfits, Borg implants, belts, shoes, pants, upper bits, hair. Biological, like Vulcan ears, restrict to Vulcans. Talking purely costumes here. Also, read my edit, on my previous post. :)
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • bltrrnbltrrn Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    The Tal Shiar uniform(s) have been very limited since they came out, and the Imperial-side rpers want some bling. Another tailor oddity, that also has put stress on roleplayers, is that the KDF rank baldric, only have the sigs of House Martok on them, not a general "rank baldric". Also, there is the issue of TOS Mirror uniforms not have any rank options, or anything other than options for enlisted personnel.
    R E M A I N

    Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.

    https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I see people in swim wear, but off Risa. How are they doing this? Exploiting a glitch? How is it done?
    risa outfits created in the early weeks of the second summer festival allowed you to wear them anywhere (bug), and the fix was not retroactive. so long as you dont edit the outfit you can continue to wear it off risa.

    ​​
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    In other words, not a complete removal of restrictions, but rather a systems analysis of them; looking at each one and deciding whether or not it serves an effective purpose (i.e. swimsuits being unmixable with uniforms) or is merely arbitrary (Orion PCs and BOffs having no access to 'Boots - high, thigh' despite NPCs of the same race and gender having such), did I read that right?

    That is what I want. Blur the lines. But at the end of the day keep the Ferengi away from the Honor Guard, keep the Vulcan away from the tonics and metal bikinis, and so on and so on.

    Also I'm starting to get the feeling that you are washing away parts of STO's and just Star Trek's lore, worldbuilding, and stories just so you could make your own in its ruins.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    In other words, not a complete removal of restrictions, but rather a systems analysis of them; looking at each one and deciding whether or not it serves an effective purpose (i.e. swimsuits being unmixable with uniforms) or is merely arbitrary (Orion PCs and BOffs having no access to 'Boots - high, thigh' despite NPCs of the same race and gender having such), did I read that right?

    That is what I want. Blur the lines. But at the end of the day keep the Ferengi away from the Honor Guard, keep the Vulcan away from the tonics and metal bikinis, and so on and so on.

    Also I'm starting to get the feeling that you are washing away parts of STO's and just Star Trek's lore, worldbuilding, and stories just so you could make your own in its ruins.
    And I get the feeling you want to keep *your* idea of Trek lore, at the cost of other people. Why would you keep Ferengi from Honor Guard, in 25th century? A tad racist and, essentially, not very Trek, since Trek is about diversity. Again, do *not* dictate what characters others want to portray. The only entitlement I or you have, is what we make of *our* characters. Not what *others* make of *their* characters. It would be neat, if people learnt to accept and respect that. Qapla'.
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    In other words, not a complete removal of restrictions, but rather a systems analysis of them; looking at each one and deciding whether or not it serves an effective purpose (i.e. swimsuits being unmixable with uniforms) or is merely arbitrary (Orion PCs and BOffs having no access to 'Boots - high, thigh' despite NPCs of the same race and gender having such), did I read that right?

    That is what I want. Blur the lines. But at the end of the day keep the Ferengi away from the Honor Guard, keep the Vulcan away from the tonics and metal bikinis, and so on and so on.

    Also I'm starting to get the feeling that you are washing away parts of STO's and just Star Trek's lore, worldbuilding, and stories just so you could make your own in its ruins.
    And I get the feeling you want to keep *your* idea of Trek lore, at the cost of other people. Why would you keep Ferengi from Honor Guard, in 25th century? A tad racist and, essentially, not very Trek, since Trek is about diversity. Again, do *not* dictate what characters others want to portray. The only entitlement I or you have, is what we make of *our* characters. Not what *others* make of *their* characters. It would be neat, if people learnt to accept and respect that. Qapla'.

    Are you Metal Gear fan? Metal Gear Solid V is soon coming out. It looks to be a great game. While I don't know the full story yet from the trailers it looks like the big bad of the story seeks to bring unity to the world, the way he goes about it is the reason why he is the bad guy.

    In a sense he wishes to rebuild the Tower of Babel. Cast aside the tongues of our nations, of our mothers and fathers, and of their mothers and fathers. Language is one of the biggest keystone of a people. The lost of it seem painful. I could never take up another language as well as english. To lose it would crush me.

    Sorry, that was a random topic that had nothing to do what is at hand.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    In other words, not a complete removal of restrictions, but rather a systems analysis of them; looking at each one and deciding whether or not it serves an effective purpose (i.e. swimsuits being unmixable with uniforms) or is merely arbitrary (Orion PCs and BOffs having no access to 'Boots - high, thigh' despite NPCs of the same race and gender having such), did I read that right?

    That is what I want. Blur the lines. But at the end of the day keep the Ferengi away from the Honor Guard, keep the Vulcan away from the tonics and metal bikinis, and so on and so on.

    Also I'm starting to get the feeling that you are washing away parts of STO's and just Star Trek's lore, worldbuilding, and stories just so you could make your own in its ruins.
    And I get the feeling you want to keep *your* idea of Trek lore, at the cost of other people. Why would you keep Ferengi from Honor Guard, in 25th century? A tad racist and, essentially, not very Trek, since Trek is about diversity. Again, do *not* dictate what characters others want to portray. The only entitlement I or you have, is what we make of *our* characters. Not what *others* make of *their* characters. It would be neat, if people learnt to accept and respect that. Qapla'.

    Are you Metal Gear fan? Metal Gear Solid V is soon coming out. It looks to be a great game. While I don't know the full story yet from the trailers it looks like the big bad of the story seeks to bring unity to the world, the way he goes about it is the reason why he is the bad guy.

    In a sense he wishes to rebuild the Tower of Babel. Cast aside the tongues of our nations, of our mothers and fathers, and of their mothers and fathers. Language is one of the biggest keystone of a people. The lost of it seem painful. I could never take up another language as well as english. To lose it would crush me.

    Sorry, that was a random topic that had nothing to do what is at hand.
    I'm sorry, but it seems to me, that your issue is that you indeed want to control what kind of Trek characters other people want to create, rather than trust in people, and let them decide what characters they want to portray. I'm sorry to see this, and I still believe that trolls & canon-militants should not be the people, who draw the lines for the rest of us. The choice for you, to stick to canon ships & outfits is here, for your crew and your characters. That is, what I think is, all you or me should be entitled about - to be able to control *our* characters and ships we fly.

    Your rather unrelated post - I won't comment, it was unneeded. And no, I don't even know what Metal Gear Solid is. Probably some anime I don't care about. <.<
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

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    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
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    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

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  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    I was going to talk about Metal Gear again but from what I can see I should try to keep it Trek.

    TOS was a cheesy mess of a show but they are the first and they did one thing very much right. The morally plays. I'm not a writer but I want to try my hand at making a small one and hoping that this gets to you.

    In the months leading to the Klingon/Fed War a young warrior looks at his father's old Honor Guard armor, scarred and almost broken in almost countless ways. The tales his father spoke of filled his mind with thoughts of fighting for the honor of his house and his self. This young man was on leave from Starfleet for Day of Honor.

    The war has been going on for a few years. The young warrior has aged a good deal the worst way. He faced his father. One dressed in the simple uniform of a Starfleet officer, the other in armor so old it could be a relic. The son found his so called "honor".

    Nursing a mug of bloodwine that has never tasted sweet to him again after that day he spots a flutter of black, he turns his head and see a what looks to be a few members of the Honor Guard at the dabo table. Feeling a old wound throb in pain he rises to leave. He gets a better look at what he thinks is betters, it a just a group of human coming back from the Holodeck after playing a game of MACO vs the KHG. He sighs and heads to his home on the station.

    Yes yes I know it is a just a game but it is also a world, with its own rules, lore, science, people, and more. It is one of the things that I love about MMOs and almost no one player game can ever get right.

    STO is "my" Trek. What really got me into Star Trek in the first place. To shake up everything on such a large scale as what you are asking does got me on the defensive but I understand where you are coming from. That is why I'm pushing for a middle ground. I'm asking...no begging. Please try where I'm coming from.
  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    I do agree with Rosetyler51 and others that there's value, from the point of view of keeping up atmosphere, in having certain areas where everyone you see is in uniform. I'd certainly find the game more convincing and enjoyable that way. Maybe the selection should even be tightened up a bit - currently the "Uniform" parts include obviously historical costumes like the TOS wraparound tunic (and I have that outfit myself, and love it), and a few costumes that have obviously never been Starfleet uniform at all, like the Mirror Universe top.

    But I'd also love to be able to include "Uniform" parts in my off-duty uniforms. There are so many combinations that would be perfect for this, that or the other - an alien's national costume, say, or priestly robes, or a party dress that isn't one of the three slightly embarrassing options in "Formal Wear" - but can't be done, because they use a "Uniform" part with a non-"Uniform" part. (For loads of perfect examples, see the first scene of "Interspecies Medical Exchange" - these restrictions don't apply in the Foundry, and the author's given us a virtuoso display of what might have been.)

    What I'd do is have a menu when creating an outfit, like now, where you select whether it's "Uniform" or "Non-uniform". For a "Uniform" outfit, you could only choose from outfits in the "Uniform" category, but you could wear it anywhere including the few uniform-only areas. The uniform-only areas would be places like ESD (excluding the Club), diplomatic summits in missions, and so on. For a "Non-uniform" outfit, you couldn't wear it in those few places, but could use parts from all categories, including Uniform, Formal and Club (I don't see the point of the separate Formal and Club categories).

    Does that make sense?


    Not to mention, it's past time we were allowed to have Off-Duty outfits for our Bridge Officers. I won't go into how selecting them could be made to work because there are lots of ways, just do it already Cryptic, it would be great fun.

    Oh, and I definitely agree that the Leather Vest and the Formal Suit should be unlocked for females. That's easy, anyway, surely.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    I'm willing to say that I'm using slippy slope logic here but in your "freedom for all" world where is the lines? Gorns can dress up like the guy that most likely beat up their grandpa, Andorians can look like frostbitten Orions, Starfleet's finest will now look like they are forever trapped in a poorly thought out costume party.
    The game already is a "poorly though out costume party." Otherwise known as an MMORPG. Everyone chooses their own outfits. Character customization is one of the best features of the genre. And yes there are always whiners who think their game experience is more important than everyone else's, so they should get to decide what other people can look like. But that's just silly. And the company makes money selling outfits to people who want to wear them, not by non-selling them to people who don't want others to wear them.

    The restrictions in place only mean its a poorly though out and less creative costume party.
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    I'm willing to say that I'm using slippy slope logic here but in your "freedom for all" world where is the lines? Gorns can dress up like the guy that most likely beat up their grandpa, Andorians can look like frostbitten Orions, Starfleet's finest will now look like they are forever trapped in a poorly thought out costume party.
    The game already is a "poorly though out costume party." Otherwise known as an MMORPG. Everyone chooses their own outfits. Character customization is one of the best features of the genre. And yes there are always whiners who think their game experience is more important than everyone else's, so they should get to decide what other people can look like. But that's just silly. And the company makes money selling outfits to people who want to wear them, not by non-selling them to people who don't want others to wear them.

    The restrictions in place only mean its a poorly though out and less creative costume party.

    There is some level of logic with all game worlds. If it was just some "poorly though out costume party" then why can't I get a bow and dress a Vulcan up like this Lord of the Rings?
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    STO is "my" Trek. What really got me into Star Trek in the first place. To shake up everything on such a large scale as what you are asking does got me on the defensive but I understand where you are coming from. That is why I'm pushing for a middle ground. I'm asking...no begging. Please try where I'm coming from.

    Funnily enough, STO is what got me into Trek as well; nearly two years ago, I had zero clue about Star Trek's lore. I have my idea for my crew-theme, and my ship, and I've been wanting to build on that and keep continuing to do so, and don't see that changing in the forseeable future. But, the difference between you and me is; that I want to be able to control what *my* crew and my ship is about. Not how others theme and do their characters. I ask for more options for everyone; whereas you want to limit people. I understand where you're coming from; but, without being harsh about it, as the poster above, your or my views, again, shouldn't be catered to solely; that we have the rights to dictate how *our* personal preferences should be the only way of making the game and its customization, for *others* No, let people build their own Trek characters and designs.
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

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  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    Again with the Metal Gear.
    You exercise your right to "freedom" and this is the
    result. All rhetoric to avoid conflict and protect
    each other from hurt. The untested truths spun by
    different interests continue to churn and accumulate
    in the sandbox of political correctness and value
    systems.

    Everyone withdraws into their own small gated
    community, afraid of a larger forum. They stay inside
    their little ponds, leaking whatever "truth" suits
    them into the growing cesspool of society at large.

    The different cardinal truths neither clash nor mesh.
    No one is invalidated, but nobody is right.

    I will just say this. Everything you said is true.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Again with the Metal Gear.
    You exercise your right to "freedom" and this is the
    result. All rhetoric to avoid conflict and protect
    each other from hurt. The untested truths spun by
    different interests continue to churn and accumulate
    in the sandbox of political correctness and value
    systems.

    Everyone withdraws into their own small gated
    community, afraid of a larger forum. They stay inside
    their little ponds, leaking whatever "truth" suits
    them into the growing cesspool of society at large.

    The different cardinal truths neither clash nor mesh.
    No one is invalidated, but nobody is right.

    I will just say this. Everything you said is true.
    In matters like aesthetics & art.. there is no right or wrong. There are personal preferences and just because they're different, it doesn't mean mine or yours are wrong or right. The nature of humans, wanting to be 'right', even in cases when it's downright hurtful, is just a bit saddening. Creativity should be harnessed, not controlled.

    I believe that we should have more trust in our playerbase - while there are trolls/pervs who will create outfits we may deem hideous (and they do it anyways, even now), there are also plenty others, who would create more unique and variable characters, well-fitting into Trek. Maybe not Starfleet officers, but not everyone wants to be that. Some people want to be merchants, mercenaries, thugs, and pirates... the possibilities are endless, and I believe that is what promotes creativity. Arbitrary restrictions merely take that opportunity from us all.

    I'm sorry that you disagree, and again, we are at impasse - I personally cannot get behind of the idea of my own wishes for *my* character and crew, to be a factor to limit others and their ideas; the way you are somewhat okay with, because you have your idea of STO/aesthetics, that should, somehow, be reason for limiting others.

    PS: We are walking in circles, and just reitrating our opinions - it's unlikely we will persuade each other into sharing our ideas. Which is not even intent for me. But, I also don't want to keep clogging this topic, while having this ping-pong, where both of us just basicly kep saying the same thing, just in another words. *shrug*
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  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Just thinking. Are there in fact areas in the game where you can only wear "Uniform" clothes? I can't find anything about it in STOWiki. I know the game definitely has some restrictions by area; Club Wear can only be worn in clubs, Swimwear only on Risa.

    As I said earlier, I'm afraid I agree with both sides of this argument! (By the way, I'm sorry if my previous post appeared to just ignore a whole chunk of postings - the reason is, it did; I'd somehow overlooked that there was another page!) But surely it would be possible to improve both things at once?

    The restriction on mixing uniform parts with other parts doesn't really make any difference to whether the game looks like a crazy costume party - you can look just as out-of-place in nothing but Off-Duty parts, as we've all seen. But removing it would allow for a lot more creativity and variety. If someone just wants to look weird, they can look equally weird in nothing but Off-Duty clothes; if someone wants to dress as some particular thing, which actually makes in-character sense, they can do it more realistically if they have more options - and more realistic means less immersion-breaking.

    Meanwhile, what would help a lot more with realism would be making certain areas Uniform-only. And that wouldn't obstruct people's role-playing too much, surely? I'm only thinking in terms of a few particular areas - as I say, formal diplomatic occasions, and parts of ESD, Dyson Command, places like that that are clearly regular military headquarters where, in-character, only service people would be and they'd be expected to wear their uniforms. I'm speaking as a roleplayer, here. My character's a field scientist, and belongs to a distinctly undisciplined Fleet on the edge of the Badlands (yes, we actually are Firefly-themed), and usually scruffs about in jeans and a brown Winter Jacket when she's working. But she'd know that she'd be in trouble if she reported to Admiral Quinn's office dressed like that. Being surrounded by people in fancy dress there is rather as if the starbase itself was done up like, I don't know, a Wild West saloon complete with bullet holes in the walls, and you were called on to pretend not to notice that!

    What do both sides think of that? Still problems?
  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,187 Arc User
    Why should there be Areas where you can wear Uniform only? why are there even restrictions? Why can't my toons wear Orion Bikinis with formal belt anymore or wear swimwear on their ship? Don't say because its non-canon. Why shouldn't it be allowed on starships in the 25th century?

    And just because someone does not want a certain costume to be available or des not want to wear it is NO reason for any restriction, instead its the opposite. Everyone can choose what to wear. If I want to wear off-duty clothes or board shorts on my ship , let me, if someone else does not want to do that, no problem, wear a uniform. I let you play the way you want, let me play the way i want.

  • bloodyrizbloodyriz Member Posts: 1,756 Arc User
    Why should there be Areas where you can wear Uniform only? why are there even restrictions? Why can't my toons wear Orion Bikinis with formal belt anymore or wear swimwear on their ship? Don't say because its non-canon. Why shouldn't it be allowed on starships in the 25th century?

    And just because someone does not want a certain costume to be available or des not want to wear it is NO reason for any restriction, instead its the opposite. Everyone can choose what to wear. If I want to wear off-duty clothes or board shorts on my ship , let me, if someone else does not want to do that, no problem, wear a uniform. I let you play the way you want, let me play the way i want.

    Swimwear on ships IS canon, anyone who disagrees needs to watch The Cage. Yes that is right, the very first showing of the very first Star Trek showed us that.
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  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I don't remember that - though I only saw "The Menagerie". Which bit was that?

    Willamsheridan: just because, as I say, it makes the game look so much more realistic for everyone else. You'd find it annoying if, say, instead of the Federation emblems seen in the shows the flags in ESD all had Pokemon on them or something like that. Take it far enough, and the game stops looking like Star Trek at all. For me it's just the same when Quinn's office is full of people in swimsuits or Orion bikinis. "They might not even have uniforms in the 25th century" is a fair point, but they clearly do (look at the NPCs), and that makes the alternative look weird.

    I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying though - I'd only want that for a few specific small areas, the ones where, since there are uniforms at all, you would most obviously expect them to have to be worn. Admirals' offices, diplomatic functions - no more than that, really. Definitely not your own ship. I agree entirely, what your Captain allows on your ship or on away missions from your ship should be up to you - and that includes mixing and matching any categories you like.
  • bloodyrizbloodyriz Member Posts: 1,756 Arc User
    wombat140 wrote: »
    I don't remember that - though I only saw "The Menagerie". Which bit was that?

    The Cage was the original pilot which was not accepted by the network, and was retooled into The Menagerie which was accepted. Spock smiles in it (12 minutes in), and Nurse Chapel is the First Officer and brunette.

    Anyway, if you have Netflix you can watch it, and at about 3 minutes 10 seconds in you see a man and woman walking away from the camera, she is wearing a white tennis skirt, and red tank-top, he is in a blue striped polo, and blue shorts, with flip-flops, while on ship yet obviously off-duty. Back then this was beach wear. Maybe Pike was just more lax on regs than Kirk. Although I do recall seeing a scene just outside of a recreation area on the TOS Enterprise with a man and woman in actual swimwear (her in a bikini) toweling off after a swim. I just for the life of me cannot recall which episode it was to look it up and find the time ref.
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    I am in general agreement with the OP and subsequent posts by jodarkrider. Aesthetics is one of the most subjective branches of Philosophy, and person S disliking something should have no bearing on whether or not it should be available to person Z.

    Should there be limits? Yes, but some of the currently-extant limits are rather illogical.

    With regard to swimwear, I see no reason it should be restricted at all, but if it absolutely must be, then the restriction should be relaxed to allow it being worn in fleet holdings, on our ships, and in places where off-duty personnel may be found, especially when such places have holodecks. Included in the latter would be DS9, Drozana Station, First City (First City is not a military installation, but a city, and residential areas are accessible), and others. I can, to some extent, see keeping it off most of ESD, but not out of Club 47. I can see keeping it out of New Romulus Command, but not out of the balcony area, which is a place for leisure.

    With regard to Vulcans not being allowed x, y, or z based on the idea that "Vulcans don't do a, b, or c," bear in mind that, while Cthia (Surakianism) is indeed the dominant worldview on Vulcan, it is not the only worldview there. Sybok was evidence of that, to say nothing of the various Vulcans who have given lip-service to Cthia but violated its teachings in numerous particulars. With the revival of Reunificationism, other Vulcans may also have abandoned Cthia, and some may even have embraced the old ways. Those Vulcans who have embraced the Syrranite Reform would surely be likely to do more than give lip-service to Surak's teaching of the doctrine of "Va'Vuhnaya s'Va'Terishlar" (Vulcan, "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"), and thus no longer be intent on enforcing conformity or uniformity among their population, but would instead accept diversity and even dissent.


    In closing --

    Remember when the new ship decoration color palette was announced and people went ballistic with paranoia over the possibility that a Klingon might fly a pink battle cruiser or BoP (as if that were somehow unconscionable), or that blinding neon colors would adorn a majority of ships in the Sol system? Here we are weeks after the release of the expanded ship decoration color palette, and small furry animals have not exploded as a result, nor has the blood of children flooded the campus of Starfleet Academy, nor have any of the warnings of the doomsayers come to pass (well, there may be a Klingon or two flying a largely pink ship, but I have heard no reports of cataclysm as a result). It seems to me that the fear regarding that was not well-founded, and that it's not well-founded in this case, either.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    protogoth wrote: »
    Remember when the new ship decoration color palette was announced and people went ballistic with paranoia over the possibility that a Klingon might fly a pink battle cruiser or BoP (as if that were somehow unconscionable), or that blinding neon colors would adorn a majority of ships in the Sol system? Here we are weeks after the release of the expanded ship decoration color palette, and small furry animals have not exploded as a result, nor has the blood of children flooded the campus of Starfleet Academy, nor have any of the warnings of the doomsayers come to pass (well, there may be a Klingon or two flying a largely pink ship, but I have heard no reports of cataclysm as a result). It seems to me that the fear regarding that was not well-founded, and that it's not well-founded in this case, either.
    That's what I wanted to say - quite a lot of us, who ask for unrestricting/freeing costume pieces/things, are Trek fans just like any other & want to make nice Trek-based/themed costumes & characters. Assuming everyone here wants to make some horrid Pikachu or what have you, is almost insulting if you look at it that way, saying that only opinions of these people are valid, since they assume basicly "the worst". Just because our "vision" of "our" Trek is different from some of these more aggressive 'canon' people, it doesn't make it any less valid, and again, these people, wishing to impose restrictions based on their personal views of Trek, shouldn't be the sole group the developpers try to cater to. People like me, you and others in this thread want more options for everyone - these calling for restricting things, are attempting to control the image of Trek, in the way *they* like it, regardless of the fact that from fan to fan, the opinions differ. And that is my biggest beef.

    Unfortunately, with the S10.5 the developpers are indeed more in favor of catering to rather conservative view of these people. Pardon me if I am wrong, but I saw some of the changes in the tailor, restricting even things like bare feet to 'Swimwear' category only. Likewise, in my another elaborate topic, where I expanded on how they could give Liberated Borg Captains some love, using *existing* assets, when there were already "bare" feet Borg styled into Borg "shoes" available for our Captains & Borg Suit available on our BOFFs'. At its' simpliest form, they could've make whole suit accessible for our Captains or ignore it, leave it as it is. But, what they did instead? Remained totally quiet on my topic AND removed the Borg "bare" feet from us. I'm more than disheartened.

    As it stands - they indeed did some of the lower-parts categories re-arrangement & in terms of it being more coherent - kudos, but at the same time, they took away options from us, and imposed even more restrictions on what costmes we can wear, and under what circumstances. That, in my eyes, is going in completelly opposite direction from what quite few people would like to see.

    I don't want to clog this forum, but, I wrote quite a lenghty rambling on this change on my personal website - for anyone's viewing (dis)pleasure, can be found over the link below.

    HERE

    I'll just quote an important part, aimed at the 'nay-sayers', who want to impose their view of Trek on everyone, by not allowing us more free-hand customization, in case they want to argument with "But you're forcing us to accept your view"
    Some people just fail (or don’t want) to understand, that when someone else’s character is not according to their *personal* vision of Trek, it is not forcing anything on *them*, as it’s *not* their character. They don’t have to copy that theme/character. They don’t have to interact with them or include them in their storylines/roleplaying. Just walk on, and don’t worry? Why is that so hard? Do I personally dislike the blatantly sexualized Orions? Or the Bikini-barbie squads in the Battlezones? Yes. I do. But, as long as that’s not forced onto MY crew? Let people have characters they want, for Kahless sake.

    STO has always been more concepted around the Star Trek Theme-park. Make it what you want, make the Trek you want, kind of mindset.

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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    protogoth wrote: »
    Remember when the new ship decoration color palette was announced and people went ballistic with paranoia over the possibility that a Klingon might fly a pink battle cruiser or BoP (as if that were somehow unconscionable), or that blinding neon colors would adorn a majority of ships in the Sol system? Here we are weeks after the release of the expanded ship decoration color palette, and small furry animals have not exploded as a result, nor has the blood of children flooded the campus of Starfleet Academy, nor have any of the warnings of the doomsayers come to pass (well, there may be a Klingon or two flying a largely pink ship, but I have heard no reports of cataclysm as a result). It seems to me that the fear regarding that was not well-founded, and that it's not well-founded in this case, either.
    That's what I wanted to say - quite a lot of us, who ask for unrestricting/freeing costume pieces/things, are Trek fans just like any other & want to make nice Trek-based/themed costumes & characters. Just because our "vision" of "our" Trek is different from some of these more aggressive 'canon' people, it doesn't make it any less valid, and again, these people, wishing to impose restrictions based on their personal views of Trek, shouldn't be the sole group the developpers try to cater to. People like me, you and others in this thread want more options for everyone - these calling for restricting things, are attempting to control the image of Trek, in the way *they* like it, regardless of the fact that from fan to fan, the opinions differ. And that is my biggest beef.

    Unfortunately, with the S10.5 the developpers are indeed more in favor of catering to rather conservative view of these people. Pardon me if I am wrong, but I saw some of the changes in the tailor, restricting even things like bare feet to 'Swimwear' category only. Likewise, in my another elaborate topic, where I expanded on how they could give Liberated Borg Captains some love, using *existing* assets, when there were already "bare" feet Borg styled into Borg "shoes" available for our Captains & Borg Suit available on our BOFFs'. At its' simpliest form, they could've make whole suit accessible for our Captains or ignore it, leave it as it is. But, what they did instead? Remained totally quiet on my topic AND removed the Borg "bare" feet from us. I'm more than disheartened.

    As it stands - they indeed did some of the lower-parts categories re-arrangement & in terms of it being more coherent - kudos, but at the same time, they took away options from us, and imposed even more restrictions on what costmes we can wear, and under what circumstances. That, in my eyes, is going in completelly opposite direction from what quite few people would like to see.

    I don't want to clog this forum, but, I wrote quite a lenghty rambling on this change on my personal website - for anyone's viewing (dis)pleasure, can be found over the link below.

    HERE

    I've been a Trek fan for as long as I can remember, and I can remember watching TOS when it was not yet in reruns, although I can only barely remember that. I am a devoted Trekker. I am very familiar with canon both hard and soft, the latter mostly with regard to Romulans (and, to some extent, Vulcans). I have all manner of Trek collectibles, DVDs, novels, comic books, uniforms, etc, etc, etc. "My" Trek is about freedom and acceptance of diversity, because that's what Mister Roddenberry's Trek was about. That said, however, I do recognize that military organizations have uniforms, so there must be some sort of standard. But the notion that everyone is always on duty is nonsensical, especially when locations for off-duty downtime and R&R exist in the game (not limited to Risa).

    In response to your blog post, let me encourage you to continue to offer suggestions. Some of them may get implemented and some may not, but if you refrain from offering them, the likelihood of them coming to fruition is decreased.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    I'm willing to say that I'm using slippy slope logic here but in your "freedom for all" world where is the lines? Gorns can dress up like the guy that most likely beat up their grandpa, Andorians can look like frostbitten Orions, Starfleet's finest will now look like they are forever trapped in a poorly thought out costume party.
    The game already is a "poorly though out costume party." Otherwise known as an MMORPG. Everyone chooses their own outfits. Character customization is one of the best features of the genre. And yes there are always whiners who think their game experience is more important than everyone else's, so they should get to decide what other people can look like. But that's just silly. And the company makes money selling outfits to people who want to wear them, not by non-selling them to people who don't want others to wear them.

    The restrictions in place only mean its a poorly though out and less creative costume party.

    There is some level of logic with all game worlds. If it was just some "poorly though out costume party" then why can't I get a bow and dress a Vulcan up like this Lord of the Rings?
    AFAIK there aren't any bows in the game. But there are swords and I'm pretty sure you could dress up as a Lord of the Rings character if you want.
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