Science in space is fine, Science on ground is iffy for me. Science's only real offensive power is exothermic induction. Which sadly is placed right at the end of the skill tree. unlike tacts grenades and engineers mines which are near the start of the skill tree. Meaning you have to sacrifice space skills to take full advantage of that skill. Science really needs more damage dealing kit powers in my option
Exo may be the best but its not the only one. There's also tachyon harmonic, hyperionic radiation, sonic pulse and the reputation altered nanite sonic pulse and neutronic radiation. Plus the new risian one and winter one that seem to be swaps for exo.
You can have five ground attacks if you really wanted.
What we need are more effective ground attacks. Sonic and tachyon aren't going to kill even a minion, but plasma/photon grenade or the mortar both can. Just as a couple examples the other captain's can run.
Thats what i meant Science does need more effective ground based attacks/skills, The other skills you mentioned are kit fillers, none of them do any serious damage other than sonic pulse which can knock a Voth scientist's health down 65% if you flank him or hit him as he materialises as an example. I'd love to science to have some nifty damage dealing kit powers on par with the other 2 careers.
Thats what i meant Science does need more effective ground based attacks/skills, The other skills you mentioned are kit fillers, none of them do any serious damage other than sonic pulse which can knock a Voth scientist's health down 65% if you flank him or hit him as he materialises as an example. I'd love to science to have some nifty damage dealing kit powers on par with the other 2 careers.
Tachyon harmonic is designed to get rid of SHIELDS. It could be a bit more effective at that, but its not designed to do damage to health.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Dont get this either. Klingon players asking for more science ships. Non sense. Seriously. If you want science, play Starfleet. Period. Every faction has their own pros/cons. Cant believe still after 5 years people cant still see this. We should just eliminate romulans and klingons for good. So everybody has access to science ships.. is that a good idea? lol.
If you like sports, and you love football but yo hate tennis, dont pretend to be able to play tennis like football. You cant, period. Why people cant get it lol.
That is pretty ignorant. The Feds long ago got hangar bays, a carrier, and cloaking on a number of ships. Where is that faction uniqueness?
I think the word you are looking for is reasonable, not ignorant. It is pretty simple. Klingons never focused on science not in the shows not ever. Why they will have several science ships?, it makes no sense. Because it is a faction that science is not one of their strong points, period. You need to live with it. If you think im ignorant for thinking that every faction should stay unique, then you are even more ignorant than me.
Starfleet always had hangars and carrier bays (in this game and in the tv), about cloaking, yes, starfleet always had a couple of ships capable of using a cloak, those ships are CANON and everybody have seen em in the shows. The "Extra" starfleet ships that can use cloak are just another invention of cryptic trying to make again, starfleet the unique faction players will play from here to a near future.
We should give also singularity powers to starfleet, that will be cool eh? lol.
No, the word is definitely ignorant. A civilization that has ships, weapons, and technology on par or superior to the UFP necessarily has science going on. There is no other way they could continue to produce, maintain, and design further improvements to what they have. They do, in canon, continue to improve designs and develop new technologies.
And no, Starfleet did not hangars or carriers in canon. The closest thing are shuttle bay launching shuttles which, in canon, are next to useless in combat with capital ships.
Cloaking was only seen on one ship because the Romulans gave it to them with specific demands not to use it outside the Gamma quadrant, and another prototype that was illegally developed in secret.
Science ships in canon are also not remotely intended for combat, but for doing actual science. It is yet another creation of the game that they are combat effective ships, and as it overrides canon for hangars and cloaking, so too it does with even Federation science ships, and thus there is no reason not to extend them to the KDF and Romulans as well.
All of these arguments about "canon", while valid, are also completely irrelevant.
The simple fact is this. There is no difference whatsoever gameplay wise, between a Fed, KDF or Rom Science captain. They have access to identical skills and abilities, and access to exactly the same BOff skills, and with the addition of Lockbox Cross Faction "prize" boxes, (almost) the exact same consoles.
What they do NOT have is equal access to the same range of ships! If some Dev at Cryptic doesn't think that "Klingons are sciency" then they should never have allowed that faction to create Science characters, period!
All of these arguments about "canon", while valid, are also completely irrelevant.
The simple fact is this. There is no difference whatsoever gameplay wise, between a Fed, KDF or Rom Science captain. They have access to identical skills and abilities, and access to exactly the same BOff skills, and with the addition of Lockbox Cross Faction "prize" boxes, (almost) the exact same consoles.
What they do NOT have is equal access to the same range of ships! If some Dev at Cryptic doesn't think that "Klingons are sciency" then they should never have allowed that faction to create Science characters, period!
And that is, too, irrelevant.
As a Federation Science Captain I can't fly a Warbird. As a Klingon Science Captain I can't fly a Warbird. As a Romulan Science Captain, I can't fly a Carrier. As a Federation Science Captain, I can't fly a Bird of Prey.
The only thing that means is that factions have acess to different ships. That is only a drawback if the ships a faction has access to are all sh*t. But they aren't.
A Science Captain can fly a Cruiser, an Escort, a Science Vessel, a Warbird, a Carrier, a Bird of Prey and whatever else ships we have. There is nothing that requires a Science Captain to fly a Science Vessel. Every single space ship skill you can train is the same for all careers. The Science Captain abilities? Not a single one buffs science skills directly! Heck, some argue that Tactical Captains are now better in Science Vessels than Science Captains, simply because they have a damage buff that also helps all those exotic damage abilities.
In PVP, one of the deadliest ship/career mixes could be a Science Captain in a Bird of Prey. Decloak behind your enemy, subnuke the sh*t out of the target's defenses, and blow it up with massive tactical buffs while the target is still waking up and waiting for his buffs to come off cooldown. (And you can bet, Feds complained about that a lot, but of course, many just failed to use the counter well - like using Fed Science Vessels and Cruisers to deal with cloak and damage...)
There isn't any reason, not in canon, nor in the game mechanics, to enforce that every faction must have access to the same repertoire of ships.
That doen't mean you can't wish for a KDF science vessel. I'd like a TIer 6 KDF Science Vessel, too, because I really like Science Vessel gameplay. But it's pointless to argue that it's some kind of necessity.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
IIRC, it was mentioned in canon that the reason we see the warlike, aggressive Klingons is because they are the ones in control of the government. Klingon society has people of all walks, much like our society. They have cooks and cleaners and teachers and even scientist.
The issue canonically is that they do not build dedicated ships for that purpose, due to the military focus of the government. They have ships that can do the job already (Birds of Prey can be adapted to any purpose, and they commandeered the science vessels of the Gorn when they were absorbed into the empire. Quite simply, they have no need to build a different ship for every condition they might possibly one day encounter. That is a Federation thing.
The issue in the real world is people do not buy and fly KDF sci ships in the quantity that justifies them spending the money we are sending them on making any more. As somebody who exclusively played KDF for years, I can tell you that they certainly weren't missed. BoPs and carriers more than fill that role.
Again, I don't care if KDF gets more sci ships. More options the better. I just don't see a pressing need, nor do I see the justification financially.
All this talk makes me want to take my Kar'Fi out for a spin...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I think that there may be a point to Rom/KDF sales in the Sci department not matching up. But I also think there is a point in holding an option open. And at the moment it is not really viable to go for a "pure science" career on the Rom or KDF side.
I have - after a couple of months of playing - slowly expanded to 9 toons. One for each faction/career combo. I later made three more toons for Delta Recruits, one of each faction, one of each career. Funny enough, I chose Fed/Sci, because the other ones didn't really appeal. My RomSci flies the Breen carrier, my KDFSci sits in a Dyson Destroyer, so cross faction ships. I don't want two toons to fly the same ship because that would undermine the different playing experience. (Actually, since I don't personally like the Dauntless that much, my Delta Sci is also hanging in mid air, but maybe I'll save up to a temporal vessel from the exchange).
But if the KDF Sci ships don't get the love, that's a point, too. I personally like the Draguas and the Varanus a lot (of course, T4 ships last only so long. Also I am strange in that I do really like the Dyson destroyer, also the looks on my KDF one if I use a KDF hull material). If they don't sell as much as equivalents do, hmpf. (And generally, I think the KDF consoles do offer a way higher incentive on buying low tier ships than the Fed versions)
I once saw a statistic about how many captains from races/careers/factions there are around (and the races did not line up with my personal experience, I see way more Orions than Nausicaans, yet the stats seem to suggest differently), and the careers were Tac (more than 50%), then Eng, then Sci dead last. Also most players play Fed. But there could also be a correlation: maybe the mindset making you play a Klink also makes you more likely to go pure battle machine, thus Tac or to a lesser degree Eng? Would be interesting, if KDF Sci toons exist at any reasonable proportion at all...
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I once saw a statistic about how many captains from races/careers/factions there are around (and the races did not line up with my personal experience, I see way more Orions than Nausicaans, yet the stats seem to suggest differently), and the careers were Tac (more than 50%), then Eng, then Sci dead last. Also most players play Fed. But there could also be a correlation: maybe the mindset making you play a Klink also makes you more likely to go pure battle machine, thus Tac or to a lesser degree Eng? Would be interesting, if KDF Sci toons exist at any reasonable proportion at all...
All of these arguments about "canon", while valid, are also completely irrelevant.
The simple fact is this. There is no difference whatsoever gameplay wise, between a Fed, KDF or Rom Science captain. They have access to identical skills and abilities, and access to exactly the same BOff skills, and with the addition of Lockbox Cross Faction "prize" boxes, (almost) the exact same consoles.
What they do NOT have is equal access to the same range of ships! If some Dev at Cryptic doesn't think that "Klingons are sciency" then they should never have allowed that faction to create Science characters, period!
And that is, too, irrelevant.
As a Federation Science Captain I can't fly a Warbird. As a Klingon Science Captain I can't fly a Warbird. As a Romulan Science Captain, I can't fly a Carrier. As a Federation Science Captain, I can't fly a Bird of Prey.
The only thing that means is that factions have acess to different ships. That is only a drawback if the ships a faction has access to are all sh*t. But they aren't.
A Science Captain can fly a Cruiser, an Escort, a Science Vessel, a Warbird, a Carrier, a Bird of Prey and whatever else ships we have. There is nothing that requires a Science Captain to fly a Science Vessel. Every single space ship skill you can train is the same for all careers. The Science Captain abilities? Not a single one buffs science skills directly! Heck, some argue that Tactical Captains are now better in Science Vessels than Science Captains, simply because they have a damage buff that also helps all those exotic damage abilities.
In PVP, one of the deadliest ship/career mixes could be a Science Captain in a Bird of Prey. Decloak behind your enemy, subnuke the sh*t out of the target's defenses, and blow it up with massive tactical buffs while the target is still waking up and waiting for his buffs to come off cooldown. (And you can bet, Feds complained about that a lot, but of course, many just failed to use the counter well - like using Fed Science Vessels and Cruisers to deal with cloak and damage...)
There isn't any reason, not in canon, nor in the game mechanics, to enforce that every faction must have access to the same repertoire of ships.
That doen't mean you can't wish for a KDF science vessel. I'd like a TIer 6 KDF Science Vessel, too, because I really like Science Vessel gameplay. But it's pointless to argue that it's some kind of necessity.
I'm going to ignore that veiled attempt to "shoehorn" the semi-classic "tactical captain in any ship is superior to the science officer / engineer 'intended' to fly that class" because of their "raw damage buffing captain powers".
I'm also going to ignore the "you science captains aren't forced to fly science ships", perhaps I have a Romulan Tac that I want to stuff in a science ship, because the sword cuts both ways.
And PvP isn't part and parcel of this argument, that ship sailed and flopped when the KDF initially asked for science ships way back when LoR launched and the KDF faced the prospect of having to face Fed-aligned Roms with cloak. They were told to "fight the sub battle of which cloaker catches which cloaker with their pants down".
Finally, the BoP is a unique animal. I cannot argue it's ability to use Cmdr Science powers, however, using the BoP to justify the exclusion of further science ship development could (and should) be carried to the remainder of the lineup as well, put enough engineer BOffs onboard and it could tank like a cruiser, tactical BOffs and it shines (as you illustrated in your post) as a tactical bird. One hull to rule them all...
So with half your post gone, let me go into my actual rebuttals:
First off, I see confusion in ship types vs ship roles.
Warbird vs. "Warp core" is ship type. This has been 100% segregated from day one of it's existence, Feds and KDFs don't get warbirds, Rommies don't (usually) get warp cores.
Ship roles are a muddier water, because this is where the plethora of names like escort, destroyer, raider, battlecruiser, cruiser, flight deck carrier, true carrier, science ship, etc. come into play. However, it can be cleaned up to be very tidy if we do the following:
1. Separate the "true carrier", aka 2 hangar model ships out of the list.
2. Assign the term "flight deck carrier" as a modifier to the remaining ship types. Orion FDCs are practically cruisers with a hangar slapped on. Escort carriers are flight deck escort-class ships. Etc.
3. Break the remaining ship types into general classifications based on the Commander BOff seat.
Escort, Destroyer and Raider all flop into a "Tactical" category based off of the BOff seat. Same with the Battlecruisers and regular cruisers. And even ignoring the whole "Escorts are Fed Only, Raiders are KDF (RR) Only", because they seem 100% to be stat clones with different naming, there's been "just enough" crossovers everywhere to keep the sides (relatively) quiet with ship availability (outside of the usual lack of volume for KDF ships).
To wit: Bortasq' KDF Cruiser. Avenger series Battlecruisers. Command "Flight deck" cruisers. Pilot (escort/raiding) ships. Aquarius Destroyer for the Feds. Just to name a few... Fact that what, every Romulan Warbird includes one of these "role" descriptors in their title (such as the D'Dierex Heavy Cruiser Warbird, or the Daenos Destroyer Warbird) shouldn't be forgotten, either...
Which leaves us to examine Science. Let me take a moment to run off the entirety of the "faction specific" ships that - no matter what "role" they may carry - have a dedicated Commander Science BOff seat. (Dedicated avoides the BoP, for reasons given above. No other faction specific ship to my knowledge has a universal commander seat, just a couple of lockbox ships like the Recluse and Tal'Shiar Adapted Battlecruiser)
KDF: T4 Darugas, Varanus, Vo'Quv, Kar'Fi
RR: Ha'nom
To remind you, this is important because from the entirety of the KDF & RR's "faction specific" shiplist, these are the only five vessel names (names because that system encompasses the mirror / fleet variants) that can access the Science Commander BOff abilities such as GW II & III, Tyken's Rift III, FBP III, etc. This is the game mechanic "need" that needs to be addressed, the complete and utter dearth of options to use this entire subset of powers, competitively.
Then once you pop the T4 (because it's T4, and therefore "not competitive" at L60), and the carriers (Vo'Quv and Kar'Fi) off, we're left with what, a C-store clone of the DSSV-Titan for the KDF, and a clone of the RSV-Luna that is handed out at L40 like the Luna was? I think I just addressed the "sh*ttyness" of the lineup available to any captain class that desires to fly a ship with 3/3 weapons loadout, integrated subsystem targetting, sensor analysis, secondary deflector, Science Commander powers, and Klingon / Romulan f(r)actions.
Which leaves "repertoire". I don't think the KDF and RR are asking for a lineup that rivals the Fed's Luna/Titan/Intrepid/Nebula/Vesta/D'Kyr/Olympus/Rhode Island/Scryer/Dauntless/Pathfinder. They (we, as I have a KDF & RR in the mix) are asking for, say, a Vesta and Scryer/Pathfinder T6 "clone" to up the count to 3 vs. 11...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
The BOP does not work well as a science ship. It has extra weapons power instead of aux, poor console loadouts, very poor innate survivability, and cannon focused builds which the BOP is ideal for require higher level tac slots, and because of its survivability issue, it is difficult to not also dedicate most slots to self healing. Also the T5U selection is very limited to say the least, with no T6 offering anywhere in sight.
The BOP was great early in the game, especially in PVP when that flexibility meant something. I mean it was great being able to cloak, swap BOFFs around and fill a role the team needed. Sacrificing damage to do extra healing or CC or whatever worked well in PVP. PVE never really demanded changing roles on the fly, and these days most would just be best with a tactical setup anyway. Now it is just too mediocre at everything to really make sense, a lot more ships offer more viable flexibility and that total flexibility the BOP has doesn't really mean much in PVE. Can you play science ship with it? Yes, but any actual science ship is going to do everything you do much better.
The BOP does not work well as a science ship. It has extra weapons power instead of aux, poor console loadouts, very poor innate survivability, and cannon focused builds which the BOP is ideal for require higher level tac slots, and because of its survivability issue, it is difficult to not also dedicate most slots to self healing. Also the T5U selection is very limited to say the least, with no T6 offering anywhere in sight.
The BOP was great early in the game, especially in PVP when that flexibility meant something. I mean it was great being able to cloak, swap BOFFs around and fill a role the team needed. Sacrificing damage to do extra healing or CC or whatever worked well in PVP. PVE never really demanded changing roles on the fly, and these days most would just be best with a tactical setup anyway. Now it is just too mediocre at everything to really make sense, a lot more ships offer more viable flexibility and that total flexibility the BOP has doesn't really mean much in PVE. Can you play science ship with it? Yes, but any actual science ship is going to do everything you do much better.
Most of those criticisms meant more pre delta rising. There are solutions to power now we didnt have before, many science builds need weapons anyway etc. But to me no secondary deflector and three science consoles is a serious limit. That's fatal to most current science builds.
Also, anyone who loads up cannon skills at ltc and cdr level is not doing a science build in the first place so i feel that critique is irrelevant. But the rest is pretty true. And I say this as someone who adores running science builds in bops, so I definitely have bumped into every one of these limits you mentioned. You can play at science, but another ship always does it better. *sad face*
Now a raider that got a secondary deflector, 5 sci consoles and the enhanced battle cloak for firing torps while cloaked with an Intel seat for oss3 and +10 aux, +5 weapons... I'd be all over that. Never gonna happen, but I can still dream.
On the "no t6 offering in sight" ... It's been leaked, one is coming
Comments
Thats what i meant Science does need more effective ground based attacks/skills, The other skills you mentioned are kit fillers, none of them do any serious damage other than sonic pulse which can knock a Voth scientist's health down 65% if you flank him or hit him as he materialises as an example. I'd love to science to have some nifty damage dealing kit powers on par with the other 2 careers.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
No, the word is definitely ignorant. A civilization that has ships, weapons, and technology on par or superior to the UFP necessarily has science going on. There is no other way they could continue to produce, maintain, and design further improvements to what they have. They do, in canon, continue to improve designs and develop new technologies.
And no, Starfleet did not hangars or carriers in canon. The closest thing are shuttle bay launching shuttles which, in canon, are next to useless in combat with capital ships.
Cloaking was only seen on one ship because the Romulans gave it to them with specific demands not to use it outside the Gamma quadrant, and another prototype that was illegally developed in secret.
Science ships in canon are also not remotely intended for combat, but for doing actual science. It is yet another creation of the game that they are combat effective ships, and as it overrides canon for hangars and cloaking, so too it does with even Federation science ships, and thus there is no reason not to extend them to the KDF and Romulans as well.
The simple fact is this. There is no difference whatsoever gameplay wise, between a Fed, KDF or Rom Science captain. They have access to identical skills and abilities, and access to exactly the same BOff skills, and with the addition of Lockbox Cross Faction "prize" boxes, (almost) the exact same consoles.
What they do NOT have is equal access to the same range of ships! If some Dev at Cryptic doesn't think that "Klingons are sciency" then they should never have allowed that faction to create Science characters, period!
As a Federation Science Captain I can't fly a Warbird. As a Klingon Science Captain I can't fly a Warbird. As a Romulan Science Captain, I can't fly a Carrier. As a Federation Science Captain, I can't fly a Bird of Prey.
The only thing that means is that factions have acess to different ships. That is only a drawback if the ships a faction has access to are all sh*t. But they aren't.
A Science Captain can fly a Cruiser, an Escort, a Science Vessel, a Warbird, a Carrier, a Bird of Prey and whatever else ships we have. There is nothing that requires a Science Captain to fly a Science Vessel. Every single space ship skill you can train is the same for all careers. The Science Captain abilities? Not a single one buffs science skills directly! Heck, some argue that Tactical Captains are now better in Science Vessels than Science Captains, simply because they have a damage buff that also helps all those exotic damage abilities.
In PVP, one of the deadliest ship/career mixes could be a Science Captain in a Bird of Prey. Decloak behind your enemy, subnuke the sh*t out of the target's defenses, and blow it up with massive tactical buffs while the target is still waking up and waiting for his buffs to come off cooldown. (And you can bet, Feds complained about that a lot, but of course, many just failed to use the counter well - like using Fed Science Vessels and Cruisers to deal with cloak and damage...)
There isn't any reason, not in canon, nor in the game mechanics, to enforce that every faction must have access to the same repertoire of ships.
That doen't mean you can't wish for a KDF science vessel. I'd like a TIer 6 KDF Science Vessel, too, because I really like Science Vessel gameplay. But it's pointless to argue that it's some kind of necessity.
The issue canonically is that they do not build dedicated ships for that purpose, due to the military focus of the government. They have ships that can do the job already (Birds of Prey can be adapted to any purpose, and they commandeered the science vessels of the Gorn when they were absorbed into the empire. Quite simply, they have no need to build a different ship for every condition they might possibly one day encounter. That is a Federation thing.
The issue in the real world is people do not buy and fly KDF sci ships in the quantity that justifies them spending the money we are sending them on making any more. As somebody who exclusively played KDF for years, I can tell you that they certainly weren't missed. BoPs and carriers more than fill that role.
Again, I don't care if KDF gets more sci ships. More options the better. I just don't see a pressing need, nor do I see the justification financially.
All this talk makes me want to take my Kar'Fi out for a spin...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I have - after a couple of months of playing - slowly expanded to 9 toons. One for each faction/career combo. I later made three more toons for Delta Recruits, one of each faction, one of each career. Funny enough, I chose Fed/Sci, because the other ones didn't really appeal. My RomSci flies the Breen carrier, my KDFSci sits in a Dyson Destroyer, so cross faction ships. I don't want two toons to fly the same ship because that would undermine the different playing experience. (Actually, since I don't personally like the Dauntless that much, my Delta Sci is also hanging in mid air, but maybe I'll save up to a temporal vessel from the exchange).
But if the KDF Sci ships don't get the love, that's a point, too. I personally like the Draguas and the Varanus a lot (of course, T4 ships last only so long. Also I am strange in that I do really like the Dyson destroyer, also the looks on my KDF one if I use a KDF hull material). If they don't sell as much as equivalents do, hmpf. (And generally, I think the KDF consoles do offer a way higher incentive on buying low tier ships than the Fed versions)
I once saw a statistic about how many captains from races/careers/factions there are around (and the races did not line up with my personal experience, I see way more Orions than Nausicaans, yet the stats seem to suggest differently), and the careers were Tac (more than 50%), then Eng, then Sci dead last. Also most players play Fed. But there could also be a correlation: maybe the mindset making you play a Klink also makes you more likely to go pure battle machine, thus Tac or to a lesser degree Eng? Would be interesting, if KDF Sci toons exist at any reasonable proportion at all...
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Surprising amount of Betazoids, tho. I would have expected that to be lower.
Edit: The way I read that chart, there ARE far more Orions than Naussicans.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
5 science consoles
Good boff seating
Nice science boosting trait
Good ship stats
Simple formula for a well selling sci ship.
I'm going to ignore that veiled attempt to "shoehorn" the semi-classic "tactical captain in any ship is superior to the science officer / engineer 'intended' to fly that class" because of their "raw damage buffing captain powers".
I'm also going to ignore the "you science captains aren't forced to fly science ships", perhaps I have a Romulan Tac that I want to stuff in a science ship, because the sword cuts both ways.
And PvP isn't part and parcel of this argument, that ship sailed and flopped when the KDF initially asked for science ships way back when LoR launched and the KDF faced the prospect of having to face Fed-aligned Roms with cloak. They were told to "fight the sub battle of which cloaker catches which cloaker with their pants down".
Finally, the BoP is a unique animal. I cannot argue it's ability to use Cmdr Science powers, however, using the BoP to justify the exclusion of further science ship development could (and should) be carried to the remainder of the lineup as well, put enough engineer BOffs onboard and it could tank like a cruiser, tactical BOffs and it shines (as you illustrated in your post) as a tactical bird. One hull to rule them all...
So with half your post gone, let me go into my actual rebuttals:
First off, I see confusion in ship types vs ship roles.
Warbird vs. "Warp core" is ship type. This has been 100% segregated from day one of it's existence, Feds and KDFs don't get warbirds, Rommies don't (usually) get warp cores.
Ship roles are a muddier water, because this is where the plethora of names like escort, destroyer, raider, battlecruiser, cruiser, flight deck carrier, true carrier, science ship, etc. come into play. However, it can be cleaned up to be very tidy if we do the following:
1. Separate the "true carrier", aka 2 hangar model ships out of the list.
2. Assign the term "flight deck carrier" as a modifier to the remaining ship types. Orion FDCs are practically cruisers with a hangar slapped on. Escort carriers are flight deck escort-class ships. Etc.
3. Break the remaining ship types into general classifications based on the Commander BOff seat.
Escort, Destroyer and Raider all flop into a "Tactical" category based off of the BOff seat. Same with the Battlecruisers and regular cruisers. And even ignoring the whole "Escorts are Fed Only, Raiders are KDF (RR) Only", because they seem 100% to be stat clones with different naming, there's been "just enough" crossovers everywhere to keep the sides (relatively) quiet with ship availability (outside of the usual lack of volume for KDF ships).
To wit: Bortasq' KDF Cruiser. Avenger series Battlecruisers. Command "Flight deck" cruisers. Pilot (escort/raiding) ships. Aquarius Destroyer for the Feds. Just to name a few... Fact that what, every Romulan Warbird includes one of these "role" descriptors in their title (such as the D'Dierex Heavy Cruiser Warbird, or the Daenos Destroyer Warbird) shouldn't be forgotten, either...
Which leaves us to examine Science. Let me take a moment to run off the entirety of the "faction specific" ships that - no matter what "role" they may carry - have a dedicated Commander Science BOff seat. (Dedicated avoides the BoP, for reasons given above. No other faction specific ship to my knowledge has a universal commander seat, just a couple of lockbox ships like the Recluse and Tal'Shiar Adapted Battlecruiser)
KDF: T4 Darugas, Varanus, Vo'Quv, Kar'Fi
RR: Ha'nom
To remind you, this is important because from the entirety of the KDF & RR's "faction specific" shiplist, these are the only five vessel names (names because that system encompasses the mirror / fleet variants) that can access the Science Commander BOff abilities such as GW II & III, Tyken's Rift III, FBP III, etc. This is the game mechanic "need" that needs to be addressed, the complete and utter dearth of options to use this entire subset of powers, competitively.
Then once you pop the T4 (because it's T4, and therefore "not competitive" at L60), and the carriers (Vo'Quv and Kar'Fi) off, we're left with what, a C-store clone of the DSSV-Titan for the KDF, and a clone of the RSV-Luna that is handed out at L40 like the Luna was? I think I just addressed the "sh*ttyness" of the lineup available to any captain class that desires to fly a ship with 3/3 weapons loadout, integrated subsystem targetting, sensor analysis, secondary deflector, Science Commander powers, and Klingon / Romulan f(r)actions.
Which leaves "repertoire". I don't think the KDF and RR are asking for a lineup that rivals the Fed's Luna/Titan/Intrepid/Nebula/Vesta/D'Kyr/Olympus/Rhode Island/Scryer/Dauntless/Pathfinder. They (we, as I have a KDF & RR in the mix) are asking for, say, a Vesta and Scryer/Pathfinder T6 "clone" to up the count to 3 vs. 11...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
The BOP was great early in the game, especially in PVP when that flexibility meant something. I mean it was great being able to cloak, swap BOFFs around and fill a role the team needed. Sacrificing damage to do extra healing or CC or whatever worked well in PVP. PVE never really demanded changing roles on the fly, and these days most would just be best with a tactical setup anyway. Now it is just too mediocre at everything to really make sense, a lot more ships offer more viable flexibility and that total flexibility the BOP has doesn't really mean much in PVE. Can you play science ship with it? Yes, but any actual science ship is going to do everything you do much better.
Also, anyone who loads up cannon skills at ltc and cdr level is not doing a science build in the first place so i feel that critique is irrelevant. But the rest is pretty true. And I say this as someone who adores running science builds in bops, so I definitely have bumped into every one of these limits you mentioned. You can play at science, but another ship always does it better. *sad face*
Now a raider that got a secondary deflector, 5 sci consoles and the enhanced battle cloak for firing torps while cloaked with an Intel seat for oss3 and +10 aux, +5 weapons... I'd be all over that. Never gonna happen, but I can still dream.
On the "no t6 offering in sight" ... It's been leaked, one is coming