I'm not so sure. Whilst it was never really elaborated upon, lack of evidence to the contrary suggests that the ship and it's temporal incursion weapon were Annorax's brainchild. Therefore, it becomes a case of future Annorax making sure that his past self never builds it and deletes the experimental temporal incursion data.
No, I mean erasing things through time travel vs. with the weapon ship. Like, say you wanted to wipe out any old colony. Once you go back in time, you have to figure out a method of making sure the colony is never founded. For instance, destroying the flotilla transporting colonists and supplies to the site of the colony. However, that's not guaranteed at all. One of the many things that could go wrong is that the flotilla could fail to be destroyed, and you'd have to figure out some other way of destroying the colony.
Weapon ship, however, you just take the ship to the colony, and after determining its overall importance (or lack thereof) to the timeline, shoot it with the big time laser thing. Boom. Colony never ever existed. No mess, no fuss. The Ferengi would love it, until they accidentally shot Ferenginar with it after removing the failsafes because they're "too expensive".
I'm not so sure. Whilst it was never really elaborated upon, lack of evidence to the contrary suggests that the ship and it's temporal incursion weapon were Annorax's brainchild. Therefore, it becomes a case of future Annorax making sure that his past self never builds it and deletes the experimental temporal incursion data.
I agree. From a cinematic and storytelling poit of view alone the episode was quite clear that Annorax abandoned the project and rather spent the time with his wife. Also, as already stated before, Annorax was happy again back int he 22nd century - there are no idnications that the project was in existence when Voyager was around the "corrected" Krenim in the 24th century.
While it is understandable that Cryptic takes the temporal weapon and makes it somehow the prime thing of the Krenim existence (especially with the Iconion nonsense still going on), canonically there is no indication for a basis for that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
insert pun here: time for another trip to the guardian of forever, at least that way the guardian could show you all the possible futures of a given event, or use the guardian to go backward in time then travel to psi 2000 and use the atavachron device to rescue the kremin from the past, or just make a quantium clone of the guy that made the weaponship BEFORE he changes his own personal history. something like that anyway.......
So far I have not seen any explanation on how this 'erased from the space-time continuum' actually works.
Where does this stuff go ? Do you use some kind of higher dimension where you pour in all those quarks/muons/strings ?
If you erase a planet, you would also erase those patricles that were created by stellar fusion.
Without those particles there would have been no star in the first place, or not the type of star that would produces the atoms that later created a planet.
Well, it didnt destroy the planet (the planet itself was still there), but only the colony. It really seems a bit to precise for such a weapon.
Though the underlying mechanic could be a switch to another (possible) reality, where the colony never existed in the first place. Like you go back your route in time to the specific point and travel a new one. Due to their calculations they could determine vaguely where this leads, but they could never catch all variables and thus the Krenim Empire got never rebuild as it was prior to the first incursion.
And since Iconians are unable to use time travel, why don't use a BoP via the slingshot manouvre, travel back in time and blow up those dyson spheres or something else that would infer with the Iconian long term plans. Why don't you just blow up their planet before they even come into existence as a species ?
Time travel creates too many problems and headaches as soon as you start to think about it in detail and stop viewing it as a plot device.
Afaik the Bell riots would have taken place no matter if DS9-Crew would have been there or not. But due to their presence the original Bell was killed and someone needed to take his place to not let the future change (too much).
As for your solution, there are too many variables in play, even if you where to take down the Iconians before they could even develop, you might alter history in a way that the federation never existed. Trying to calculate 10 years or 200.000 years, there are many, many variables you could never really measure correctly. A Q might, but I guess he would just do this empirically. 2 million realities in fast forward in 5 seconds, then he would have found the best one.
insert pun here: time for another trip to the guardian of forever, at least that way the guardian could show you all the possible futures of a given event, or use the guardian to go backward in time then travel to psi 2000 and use the atavachron device to rescue the kremin from the past, or just make a quantium clone of the guy that made the weaponship BEFORE he changes his own personal history. something like that anyway.......
All possible futures would be infinite. Even if an event only had 2 possible outcomes, the next also, and the next also, the rift would just grow exponentially.
Travelling through time and a mastery of it are two different things. Slingshots, walking through the guardian's portal, creating a temporal vortex, etc...that's using one-off things, but to actually a technology based entirely upon temporal science is another. The Krenim's entire civilisation was built upon a basic of temporal development.
Travelling through time and a mastery of it are two different things. Slingshots, walking through the guardian's portal, creating a temporal vortex, etc...that's using one-off things, but to actually a technology based entirely upon temporal science is another. The Krenim's entire civilisation was built upon a basic of temporal development.
I think nobody ever said the Krenim were "built upon a basis of temporal science". Annorax was a temporal scientist who developed this one weapon. There is no indication that their entire civilization or even only their military was based on temporal spielchen like that. This is a grade-A Cryptic interpretation of what we saw, though
Maybe I am wrong. If so, I stand corrected, but neither my memory nor the MemAlpha articles support the temporal claim.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
my point being that the guardian of forever can show you the possiblities like on a viewscreen........
And how long do you think would it take to view all possibilities with all repercussions? Even if the guardian would slow down time for you (trap you in a timebubble), you would still have to view all of them, which -if they were finite- would take a very long time.
It would be similar to what Mr.Mad Scientist did to his espada-counterpart in bleach. You would spent an eternity just looking through the possibilities and in the end, would be driven mad by it.
And how long do you think would it take to view all possibilities with all repercussions? Even if the guardian would slow down time for you (trap you in a timebubble), you would still have to view all of them, which -if they were finite- would take a very long time.
It would be similar to what Mr.Mad Scientist did to his espada-counterpart in bleach. You would spent an eternity just looking through the possibilities and in the end, would be driven mad by it.
Well, yes, until someone crashes a warp ship into you time ship and reverts everything back to the way it was before you built your time ship in the first place.
Maybe we can call that the Janeway Maneuver.
Actually, there's already a term for that - Deus ex machina.
Still, I like that ep and the ending made good enough sense for Trek.
I think nobody ever said the Krenim were "built upon a basis of temporal science". Annorax was a temporal scientist who developed this one weapon. There is no indication that their entire civilization or even only their military was based on temporal spielchen like that. This is a grade-A Cryptic interpretation of what we saw, though
Maybe I am wrong. If so, I stand corrected, but neither my memory nor the MemAlpha articles support the temporal claim.
It's not really the fact that their entire civilization was built around temporal science. I think it's more so that they were more fluent in temporal mechanics than most other species were. For example, their Chroniton torpedoes required Voyager to create a form of temporal shielding to counter them. I think the Krenim's adversaries in these timelines also devised means to counter these forms of temporal weaponry as well. As far as we know, Annorax didn't devise these weapons either. These weapons were likely created by the Krenim themselves. At the least you could argue that in the current timeline they have the potential to devise these weapons again.
Basically, temporal mechanics doesn't drive their culture. They just have a better understanding of them than most.
Well, yes, until someone crashes a warp ship into you time ship and reverts everything back to the way it was before you built your time ship in the first place.
Maybe we can call that the Janeway Maneuver.
Actually, there's already a term for that - Deus ex machina.
Still, I like that ep and the ending made good enough sense for Trek.
I still say...bring Kate Mulgrew into the game as 'Mad Janeway'. In the story, she was supposed to have been turned into a Borg Queen and died, but "Year Of Hell" Janeway, scared and suicidal...class.
Im surprised no one has mentioned Section 31 and its Bepi 113 project.
New home of the Romulan Republic.
I have an idea for what Season 11 should be; Season 11: The Big Bug Fix.
I have not been able to read my bug tickets in over a year, not even the tickets about not being able to see my tickets.
I find the drama of your signature proof of your immaturity, this means you, DR whiners.
WARNING! Potential spoilers included in this post.
The Wise Sages say that we'll be teaming up with Captain Nog in our next mission to track down a Krenim artifact which emits odd signals and signs that the Krenim may not be as dead as everyone thinks they are.
They've already confirmed the Krenim lockbox is next and have already named two playable Krenim ships from said lockbox with most of the traits and stats revealed. There are also some kit modules and whatnot that are very temporal based in ability.
I can also impart, based on pictures that have been revealed, that its quite likely this artifact will allow time travel and we'll be going back in time two hundred thousand years ago, change the past somehow and it'll have a temporal "butterfly effect" that we might have to fix.
Of course, this is just the Wise Sages though they've never steered me wrong before.
I still say...bring Kate Mulgrew into the game as 'Mad Janeway'. In the story, she was supposed to have been turned into a Borg Queen and died, but "Year Of Hell" Janeway, scared and suicidal...class.
I'm guessing this happened in a book.
Sig? What sig? I don't see any sig.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,664Community Moderator
edited June 2015
Yea... I think that was a book, which has no bearing on STO.
Anyways... If the Krenim were dabbling in Temporal Tech in the 22nd Century, its possible that by the 24th Century they may have a whole field of study on it. And if Annorax' data survived, they may have created a prototype Incursion Vessel or something as a proof of concept, but never used it because of the danger, hence why the Iconians had the Vaadwaur attack them. The Krenim were a direct threat to the Iconians because of their dabbling in Temporal Science. It was a preemptive strike.
Also... to the person who was wondering why the Kobali couldn't just revive their own dead... I think it was already stated that they couldn't use the resurrection virus on Kobali due to biological reasons.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Also... to the person who was wondering why the Kobali couldn't just revive their own dead... I think it was already stated that they couldn't use the resurrection virus on Kobali due to biological reasons.
Off-handedly mentioned in one of the Kobali Prime dialogue options, IIRC. Probably it's a one-time-only thing, once 'rebirth' has been done to a corpse the process wouldn't take a second time, and since all modern Kobali come from corpses, that means being Kobali equals not being possible to bring back with the Kobali method.
So far I have not seen any explanation on how this 'erased from the space-time continuum' actually works.
Watch the episodes of Voyager. Asking people to explain how a fictional weapon worker is not really feasible, as it was never really specifically explained.
Essentially it erased them from existence, as if the species never evolved, and any thing they did or affected is changed to reflect that, and anyone not protected from the affects would not know anything was ever changed and believe any changes had always been that way.
There is no indication that their entire civilization or even only their military was based on temporal spielchen like that.
Except for the Chroniton based weapons and shields all Krenim ships seemed to have, not just the weapon ship.
I think it is strongly implied that their military tech was based around Chroniton technology, not time travel tech, which is very different. The exception being the single Temporal Weapon ship.
Yea... I think that was a book, which has no bearing on STO.
Anyways... If the Krenim were dabbling in Temporal Tech in the 22nd Century, its possible that by the 24th Century they may have a whole field of study on it. And if Annorax' data survived, they may have created a prototype Incursion Vessel or something as a proof of concept
In my fanfiction... Admiral Alvar Merjolich (Krenim Imperial Navy, I made the Krenim armies much like today's armys. Right down to using machine guns) find the helmet of a dead soldier buried in the ash and dust of the ruins of Talverah's (The Krenim homeworld) capital city and says to Captain Riker that that one helmet is probably the only artifact of worth left in what little was left of the Imperium. This is after the combined Krenim, Voth, and Alliance retaliation on Krenim space.
What I'm saying is that the Krenim have no way to create this ship with all the research gone and all resources unavailable. However Annorax did escape Talverah during the Vaadwaur attack but his wife died saving him from a shell and the location of him and some members of his research team are unknown ...In my fanfiction
I should create a foundry mission...
Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Except for the Chroniton based weapons and shields all Krenim ships seemed to have, not just the weapon ship.
I think she would be a bit expensive to bring in given her success after the show in other projects including Orange Is the New Black.
I think it is strongly implied that their military tech was based around Chroniton technology, not time travel tech, which is very different. The exception being the single Temporal Weapon ship.
Yeah, unfortunately the only actors STO can get are the ones whose careers are really dead and buried. I love them, but I am rather expecting Roxanne Biggs-Dawson and Nana Visitor to show up.
Comments
No, I mean erasing things through time travel vs. with the weapon ship. Like, say you wanted to wipe out any old colony. Once you go back in time, you have to figure out a method of making sure the colony is never founded. For instance, destroying the flotilla transporting colonists and supplies to the site of the colony. However, that's not guaranteed at all. One of the many things that could go wrong is that the flotilla could fail to be destroyed, and you'd have to figure out some other way of destroying the colony.
Weapon ship, however, you just take the ship to the colony, and after determining its overall importance (or lack thereof) to the timeline, shoot it with the big time laser thing. Boom. Colony never ever existed. No mess, no fuss. The Ferengi would love it, until they accidentally shot Ferenginar with it after removing the failsafes because they're "too expensive".
I agree. From a cinematic and storytelling poit of view alone the episode was quite clear that Annorax abandoned the project and rather spent the time with his wife. Also, as already stated before, Annorax was happy again back int he 22nd century - there are no idnications that the project was in existence when Voyager was around the "corrected" Krenim in the 24th century.
While it is understandable that Cryptic takes the temporal weapon and makes it somehow the prime thing of the Krenim existence (especially with the Iconion nonsense still going on), canonically there is no indication for a basis for that.
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Well, it didnt destroy the planet (the planet itself was still there), but only the colony. It really seems a bit to precise for such a weapon.
Though the underlying mechanic could be a switch to another (possible) reality, where the colony never existed in the first place. Like you go back your route in time to the specific point and travel a new one. Due to their calculations they could determine vaguely where this leads, but they could never catch all variables and thus the Krenim Empire got never rebuild as it was prior to the first incursion.
Afaik the Bell riots would have taken place no matter if DS9-Crew would have been there or not. But due to their presence the original Bell was killed and someone needed to take his place to not let the future change (too much).
As for your solution, there are too many variables in play, even if you where to take down the Iconians before they could even develop, you might alter history in a way that the federation never existed. Trying to calculate 10 years or 200.000 years, there are many, many variables you could never really measure correctly. A Q might, but I guess he would just do this empirically. 2 million realities in fast forward in 5 seconds, then he would have found the best one.
All possible futures would be infinite. Even if an event only had 2 possible outcomes, the next also, and the next also, the rift would just grow exponentially.
I think nobody ever said the Krenim were "built upon a basis of temporal science". Annorax was a temporal scientist who developed this one weapon. There is no indication that their entire civilization or even only their military was based on temporal spielchen like that. This is a grade-A Cryptic interpretation of what we saw, though
Maybe I am wrong. If so, I stand corrected, but neither my memory nor the MemAlpha articles support the temporal claim.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Methinks that Krenim vessels may become available through Lockboxes with emphisis on Chroniton weaponry....
And how long do you think would it take to view all possibilities with all repercussions? Even if the guardian would slow down time for you (trap you in a timebubble), you would still have to view all of them, which -if they were finite- would take a very long time.
It would be similar to what Mr.Mad Scientist did to his espada-counterpart in bleach. You would spent an eternity just looking through the possibilities and in the end, would be driven mad by it.
Well, yes, until someone crashes a warp ship into you time ship and reverts everything back to the way it was before you built your time ship in the first place.
Maybe we can call that the Janeway Maneuver.
Actually, there's already a term for that - Deus ex machina.
Still, I like that ep and the ending made good enough sense for Trek.
It's not really the fact that their entire civilization was built around temporal science. I think it's more so that they were more fluent in temporal mechanics than most other species were. For example, their Chroniton torpedoes required Voyager to create a form of temporal shielding to counter them. I think the Krenim's adversaries in these timelines also devised means to counter these forms of temporal weaponry as well. As far as we know, Annorax didn't devise these weapons either. These weapons were likely created by the Krenim themselves. At the least you could argue that in the current timeline they have the potential to devise these weapons again.
Basically, temporal mechanics doesn't drive their culture. They just have a better understanding of them than most.
I still say...bring Kate Mulgrew into the game as 'Mad Janeway'. In the story, she was supposed to have been turned into a Borg Queen and died, but "Year Of Hell" Janeway, scared and suicidal...class.
I have an idea for what Season 11 should be; Season 11: The Big Bug Fix.
I have not been able to read my bug tickets in over a year, not even the tickets about not being able to see my tickets.
I find the drama of your signature proof of your immaturity, this means you, DR whiners.
The Wise Sages say that we'll be teaming up with Captain Nog in our next mission to track down a Krenim artifact which emits odd signals and signs that the Krenim may not be as dead as everyone thinks they are.
They've already confirmed the Krenim lockbox is next and have already named two playable Krenim ships from said lockbox with most of the traits and stats revealed. There are also some kit modules and whatnot that are very temporal based in ability.
I can also impart, based on pictures that have been revealed, that its quite likely this artifact will allow time travel and we'll be going back in time two hundred thousand years ago, change the past somehow and it'll have a temporal "butterfly effect" that we might have to fix.
Of course, this is just the Wise Sages though they've never steered me wrong before.
I'm guessing this happened in a book.
Anyways... If the Krenim were dabbling in Temporal Tech in the 22nd Century, its possible that by the 24th Century they may have a whole field of study on it. And if Annorax' data survived, they may have created a prototype Incursion Vessel or something as a proof of concept, but never used it because of the danger, hence why the Iconians had the Vaadwaur attack them. The Krenim were a direct threat to the Iconians because of their dabbling in Temporal Science. It was a preemptive strike.
Also... to the person who was wondering why the Kobali couldn't just revive their own dead... I think it was already stated that they couldn't use the resurrection virus on Kobali due to biological reasons.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Watch the episodes of Voyager. Asking people to explain how a fictional weapon worker is not really feasible, as it was never really specifically explained.
Essentially it erased them from existence, as if the species never evolved, and any thing they did or affected is changed to reflect that, and anyone not protected from the affects would not know anything was ever changed and believe any changes had always been that way.
Except for the Chroniton based weapons and shields all Krenim ships seemed to have, not just the weapon ship.
I think it is strongly implied that their military tech was based around Chroniton technology, not time travel tech, which is very different. The exception being the single Temporal Weapon ship.
I think she would be a bit expensive to bring in given her success after the show in other projects including Orange Is the New Black.
In my fanfiction... Admiral Alvar Merjolich (Krenim Imperial Navy, I made the Krenim armies much like today's armys. Right down to using machine guns) find the helmet of a dead soldier buried in the ash and dust of the ruins of Talverah's (The Krenim homeworld) capital city and says to Captain Riker that that one helmet is probably the only artifact of worth left in what little was left of the Imperium. This is after the combined Krenim, Voth, and Alliance retaliation on Krenim space.
What I'm saying is that the Krenim have no way to create this ship with all the research gone and all resources unavailable. However Annorax did escape Talverah during the Vaadwaur attack but his wife died saving him from a shell and the location of him and some members of his research team are unknown ...In my fanfiction
I should create a foundry mission...
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
I think it is strongly implied that their military tech was based around Chroniton technology, not time travel tech, which is very different. The exception being the single Temporal Weapon ship.
Yeah, unfortunately the only actors STO can get are the ones whose careers are really dead and buried. I love them, but I am rather expecting Roxanne Biggs-Dawson and Nana Visitor to show up.