Jaffa versus Jem'Hadar

grandnaguszek1

Time for another versus thread because the forums have been slow.
Who would win if 5000 Jaffa armed with Zat'nik'tels and staff weapons went up against 5000 Klingons armed with their Disruptor pistols/rifles and Bat'leth's/D'k tahg? The battle would take place on a grassy plane with large boulders here and there.

Go!

rattler2

I thought the Jem'Hadar used Polaron based weapons...

Anyways... I think this is advantage Jem'Hadar because of their shroud ability. Sneak sneak boom.

fatman592

No contest, Jem'Hadar win with few, if any, casualties.

legendarylycan

if entire platoons of jaffa can fall to four humans wielding chemically-propelled projectile weapons and wearing bugger all for armor, they sure as hell wouldn't be able to stand against an equal force of jem'hadar

grandnaguszek1

rattler2 wrote: »

I thought the Jem'Hadar used Polaron based weapons...

Anyways... I think this is advantage Jem'Hadar because of their shroud ability. Sneak sneak boom.

The writers could never make up their minds about their weapons. In one episode the female changeling called it a plasma rifle.

Agreed though. The shroud would be an advantage.

grandnaguszek1

fatman592 wrote: »

No contest, Jem'Hadar win with few, if any, casualties.

I should have changed Jem'Hadar to Klingons before I posted so it would be more of a contest.
I will edit that..

legendarylycan

grandnaguszek1 wrote: »

The writers could never make up their minds about their weapons. In one episode the female changeling called it a plasma rifle.

Agreed though. The shroud would be an advantage.

if it's the episode i'm thinking of...that wasn't the female changeling, it was odo masquerading as her

grandnaguszek1

Ok, I changed Jem'Hadar to Klingons with the same numbers so ignore the misleading title.

legendarylycan

the klingons would still win with few casualties...because they actually know tactics other than 'stand still and shoot' or 'advance slowly and shoot'

ursusmorologus

untrained farmers from Virinat beat all

marcusdkane

Klingons win due to the brak'lul and greater strength...
Jem'Hadar win because of their stength, weapons and ability to shroud...

steamwright

Klingons win. The reason? Jaffa weapons are for intimidation. Just look at Carter pwning the Jaffa in a shooting demo, followed by O'Neil's great explanation as to why. Klingon guns would fall into the "kill first, intimidate second" category.

Jaffa, I suspect, have another disadvantage: gut snakes. They do have armor, but it appears to be something not too heavy and that can be pulled aside in hand-to-hand. If so, a solid punch to the gut would cause significant trauma to both host and parasite, stunning them, probably for a follow-up fatality.

grandnaguszek1

We all know that one scrawney person can take down 6 klingons like major Kira though. Imagine the damage that the scrawniest jaffa could inflict.:P

yreodred

grandnaguszek1 wrote: »

We all know that one scrawney person can take down 6 klingons like major Kira though. Imagine the damage that the scrawniest jaffa could inflict.:P

This always made me giggle.

Seriously everytime i see that, i ask myself, what did the writers smoke?
Surely Kira was supposed to be a guerilla at best, but come on... klingons do almost nothing than train in close combat all their life.
It would have taken someone from the league of bruce lee to fight 6 of them in a beliveable way with their own special weapon. Sisko was already a strech, but at least he had the physique, but Major kira? Seriously?
I wouldn't have said anything if it had been a firefight, but close combat? no chance.

artan42

yreodred wrote: »

This always made me giggle.

Seriously everytime i see that, i ask myself, what did the writers smoke?
Surely Kira was supposed to be a guerilla at best, but come on... klingons do almost nothing than train in close combat all their life.
It would have taken someone from the league of bruce lee to fight 6 of them in a beliveable way with their own special weapon. Sisko was already a strech, but at least he had the physique, but Major kira? Seriously?
I wouldn't have said anything if it had been a firefight, but close combat? no chance.

Maybe Bajorans are stronger than Humans? Lots of races are built like humans but are much stronger, Vulcans, Romulans, and Andorians spring to mind.

mirrorchaos

jem'hadar easily without a doubt, they are better trained, better discipline, deadly weapons meant for war and not terror :P, they have shrouding.

when it comes right to it the jem'hadar can shroud themselves and completely overwhelm the the les trained and surprised jaffa without any issue.

yreodred

artan42 wrote: »

Maybe Bajorans are stronger than Humans? Lots of races are built like humans but are much stronger, Vulcans, Romulans, and Andorians spring to mind.

Never heard that bajorans are supposed to be stronger than humans. And even if so Klingons aren't especially weak also. So i would count Klingons to your list of humanoid with superior strength in any case.
But strangely in hand to hand combat with a hero human character, many seem to loose their superior Strength suddenly.

quintaris

How many jaffa cakes do you think 5000 Klingons could eat?

starkaos

yreodred wrote: »

This always made me giggle.

Seriously everytime i see that, i ask myself, what did the writers smoke?
Surely Kira was supposed to be a guerilla at best, but come on... klingons do almost nothing than train in close combat all their life.
It would have taken someone from the league of bruce lee to fight 6 of them in a beliveable way with their own special weapon. Sisko was already a strech, but at least he had the physique, but Major kira? Seriously?
I wouldn't have said anything if it had been a firefight, but close combat? no chance.

But Guerilla fighters cheat. How else do you expect a bunch of peasants to win against an opposing army with better weapons, training, and manpower.

gl2814e

yreodred wrote: »

Never heard that bajorans are supposed to be stronger than humans. And even if so Klingons aren't especially weak also. So i would count Klingons to your list of humanoid with superior strength in any case.
But strangely in hand to hand combat with a hero human character, many seem to loose their superior Strength suddenly.

I think it's an evolutionary weakness called "lack of main cast plot armor."

I'm sure scores of the "off-screen" offshoot of humanity have been 'Bane'd' by Klingon warriors.

gl2814e

Also as much as I like the Jaffa and the Stargate Franchise, gotta give the battle to Klingons or the Jem'Hadar. They're better armed and used to doing more than terrorizing Bronze Age peasants for most of their military careers. (I mean, I'm sure they do that too...)

k20vtec

Jaffa fights against medival-level farmers and slave and other medival slave-finghting Jaffas, occasionally.
Klingons fights against interstellar militaries, occasionally conquer medival farmers.

artan42

yreodred wrote: »

Never heard that bajorans are supposed to be stronger than humans. And even if so Klingons aren't especially weak also. So i would count Klingons to your list of humanoid with superior strength in any case.

Well it's not directly mentioned, but they could be, as evidenced by Kira. Klingons are stronger than humans but I seem to recall them being weaker than Vulcans (and therefor by extension, Romulans).

darkjeff

k20vtec wrote: »

Jaffa fights against medival-level farmers and slave and other medival slave-finghting Jaffas, occasionally.
Klingons fights against interstellar militaries, occasionally conquer medival farmers.

The Jaffa get their butts kicked by 1997 US military.
The Klingons beat down 2366 Starfleet.

artan42

darkjeff wrote: »

The Jaffa get their butts kicked by 1997 US military.
The Klingons beat down 2366 Starfleet.

And yet when it came down to an actual war in DS9 the Klingons got their arses handed to them on a nice shiny plate.

grandnaguszek1

We also have to remember that aside from staff weapons, the Jaffa are also armed with Zat'nik'tels which is basically the equivalent to a Klingon disruptor pistol in terms of how it is used. I'd still hand it to Klingons anyway through, but it would probably be close.

yreodred

starkaos wrote: »

But Guerilla fighters cheat. How else do you expect a bunch of peasants to win against an opposing army with better weapons, training, and manpower.

You shouldn't forget, Klingons train to fight all their lives, their culture is all about war and archiving honor on the battlefield by killing as much enemies as possible... (preferably in close combat)
Sure she can fight "dirty" when fighting klingons (which i haven't noticed) but she surely can't kill 5 or 6 of them just by cheating (in "real" life).
Being a angry and snappish woman doesn't make you a good fighter, at least not good enough to kill klingons.lol.

Like everyone else then, she obviously got massive amounts of Hero bonus.

artan42 wrote: »

Well it's not directly mentioned, but they could be, as evidenced by Kira. Klingons are stronger than humans but I seem to recall them being weaker than Vulcans (and therefor by extension, Romulans).

I can't remember that... do you know when she said that?

IDK about Kira tbh, she always was a bit too braggy about her "glorious" times as terrorist... which is rather repulsive to me.
Aside from her questionable past, i never saw her as especially badass, no matter what she says or does. Maybe it's the actress i don't know.
I just don't see Kira as a good or better said -outstanding- hand to hand fighter, capable to kill several bloodlusty Klingons in a row. I just don't buy that.

Regarding their survivability:
As i said, Sisko got the physique and trains in boxing (can't hurt to do that) - check
Jadzia Dax got plenty of Experience and is (very ) well in shape - check
Odo, a Changeling -check
Garak, a agent who surely got special training to kill -check

Dr. Bashir, although he is geneticly enhanced (hand-eye coordination, amongst other things), i don't see him able to slaughter Klingons with a Bath'leth. But i still would give him more chances to survive a direct fight than O'Brien. Regarding Kiras experience in combat i would give both, Bashir and Kira the same chances to survive.

The only one less competent to fight Klingons in hand to hand combat than Kira would be Chief O'Brien.



OT:
Jaffa are all about show and intimidation, they seem more like born prison guards to me, but fighting a stronger opponent, no. They already struggled by fighting 20 century earth forces. I don't want to imagine the bloodbath Klingons or Jem hadar would do.

artan42

yreodred wrote: »

I can't remember that... do you know when she said that?

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant by her actions where she does beat up a Klingon.

yreodred wrote: »

IDK about Kira tbh, she always was a bit too braggy about her "glorious" times as terrorist... which is rather repulsive to me.
Aside from her questionable past,

I would't say braggey, more unapologetic. She was a freedom fighter along the vain of the Marquis or the IRA, fighting legitimate military occupation of her home, it required terrible things, but the fight was in her home it wasn't taken further.

I suppose the problem most people have now is post 9/11, but I never really had a problem, it aired over here during a period with actual attacks by the IRA, but it was still possible for me to differentiate between terrorism against an occupier and an attack on another country.

yreodred wrote: »

i never saw her as especially badass, no matter what she says or does. Maybe it's the actress i don't know.
I just don't see Kira as a good or better said -outstanding- hand to hand fighter, capable to kill several bloodlusty Klingons in a row. I just don't buy that.

That's the thing. Unless she had strength, I could't buy it either, she was known for sneak attacks and subterfuge, not direct confrontation.

yreodred wrote: »

Dr. Bashir, although he is geneticly enhanced (hand-eye coordination, amongst other things), i don't see him able to slaughter Klingons with a Bath'leth. But i still would give him more chances to survive a direct fight than O'Brien. Regarding Kiras experience in combat i would give both, Bashir and Kira the same chances to survive.

The only one less competent to fight Klingons in hand to hand combat than Kira would be Chief O'Brien.

I'd put O'Brien above Bashir, he's a solider (well ex) and Bashire may be enhanced, but he's a novice when it comes to fighting.

darkjeff

artan42 wrote: »

And yet when it came down to an actual war in DS9 the Klingons got their arses handed to them on a nice shiny plate.

By Starfleet?

My point was that Jaffa were taken out by one country's military using 20th century technology, whereas Klingons were on par with military from an alliance of multiple races using 24nd century technology.

artan42

darkjeff wrote: »

By Starfleet?

My point was that Jaffa were taken out by one country's military using 20th century technology, whereas Klingons were on par with military from an alliance of multiple races using 24nd century technology.

By DS9. A rusty old station.

yreodred

artan42 wrote: »

I would't say braggey, more unapologetic. She was a freedom fighter along the vain of the Marquis or the IRA, fighting legitimate military occupation of her home, it required terrible things, but the fight was in her home it wasn't taken further.

That's the problem i have tbh.
Who says it was the only way to get rid of the Cardassians?
Just because the protagonist claims "it was the only way" i don't have to belive that. Sure the Cardassians where disgustful brutal, planting bombs and killing innocents is the same.
"An eye for an eye", usually results in a lot of blind people...

artan42 wrote: »

I suppose the problem most people have now is post 9/11, but I never really had a problem, it aired over here during a period with actual attacks by the IRA, but it was still possible for me to differentiate between terrorism against an occupier and an attack on another country.

I didn't like it even before 9/11. But that's just me. I can imagine many viewers accepted her "heroism" (planing bombs and doing "dirty" things like that) as long as the protagonist says it was heroic long enough.

artan42 wrote: »

That's the thing. Unless she had strength, I could't buy it either, she was known for sneak attacks and subterfuge, not direct confrontation.

Agreed. I don't want to deny her skills to work in secret, but a open battle with a horde of bloodlusty klingons, no chance.

artan42 wrote: »

I'd put O'Brien above Bashir, he's a solider (well ex) and Bashire may be enhanced, but he's a novice when it comes to fighting.

Agreed.


Sorry for being Off topic.