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Here's an Idea How about a community Board with rotating members

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  • kirimuffinkirimuffin Member Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Maybe what this game needs is a community board of players that PWE actually listens to

    Uhh, they already tried that five years ago. It didn't go over well. Granted, back then PWE wasn't in the picture yet, but I don't think it would go over any better today, for largely the same reasons.
  • cptjhuntercptjhunter Member Posts: 2,288 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Though I am personally opposed to this idea, I am also interested in how many people support/oppose it. Therefore, here is a simple poll:

    http://strawpoll.me/4354197

    As I am posting this link several pages into this thread, I would like to ask anyone who votes to please quote this post so other people will see the link.

    Nagus....bump.
  • crazyphil487crazyphil487 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yeah, no.

    EVE Online's Council of Stellar Management (CSM), was originally created as a form of "checks and balances" due to corruption on the part of at least one dev (namely, one dev was known to be giving his player-run Corporation ("Fleet" for us here) high end items, giveing them an undue advantage). These days the CSM is used as a sounding board for *most* new or revamped features. CSM members are sometimes kept in the dark about a feature, which could backfire on EVE's devs (Search: EVE Online Incarna Jita Riot). CSM members, see pre-Alpha test features, for those features they do get to see, or are allowed on the Dev-only Alpha test server. This is in addition to the public Beta test server, Singularity.

    Also EVE is one of the few subcriber-based MMOs left (the only other one that comes to mind is WoW), so people who play EVE want to have a say in what is or is not done to their game. STO is similar in that some people who play this game have invested hundreds of dollars/euros/yen/whatever-your-national-currency-is in to the game, but unlike EVE there is no corruption to be seen from Cryptic, so there are no checks-and-balances to account for.

    The closest thing to the CSM in any space-opera TV series to this is the rebooted Battlestar Galactica's "Quorum of Ships' Captains". Lore wise the is nothing in Star Trek that gives a precedent to such a group, other than one Voyager episode.

    The only useful thing such a group in STO would be used for is as a focus group, to yay-or-nay a feature before it gets pushed to Tribble for public beta testing, and even then I don't see much use there, as Cryptic's in-house QA and alpha testing, seem to have done their jobs, for the most part. Not to mention CBS/Paramount have a say in what can and can't be done, though that seems to be less and less now.

    Another thing is the number of players who play each game. EVE has over 22,000 unique users online at any one time (on a single non-instanced server, except after daily downtime), and the largest player-made organisation (The Imperium) has over 40,000 characters, some of which are alts. :eek::cool: STO can't even hold a candle to that (,yet)! I say that without knowing exactly how many unique accounts there are on STO, but I know that EVE has STO beat there.

    To put it simply, there are too many people with an intrest in EVE for it's devs to listen to all of them (though they are very active on the forums). While there a lot of people who play STO, isn't 22,000 at one time, each with their own assh... I mean opinion, and there is nothing even resembling a $300 pair of pants, or a half-baked feature that detonates your graphics card without the option to turn it off, or even a warning on release. I'm not saying it won't work, I just don't think it is needed at this time.

    And as for this:
    I can only see this idea being fair if the major fleets like SFD and NoP each get a permanent position on the board.
    That is a sure fire way to make it as unfair and unworkable as possible. If those two get permanent seats, why not 12th Fleet, or Alpha Squadron, or Starfleet Academy, or Sentinels of Freedom, or their KDF counterparts. Get the drift? Going back to EVE Online and it's CSM, ther is near constant whineing about its members being from certain groups, and locking down speficic seats of office, chairman, vice-chair, and the like. We would see similar wingeing here. I would like you to take a look at these as a further response:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MaGnVzRLZzc/VGDlCiIn-EI/AAAAAAAALII/5PX_rvHk_iI/s1600/tumblr_inline_n36nq6no801qzjix8.gif and:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ki5NkZKbZRo/U4oKAZXKmmI/AAAAAAAAKCI/2fDj9J2-_wM/s1600/MHuW96t.gif

    (GIFs found via Sand, Cider and Spaceships, an EVE Online blog. Link to the GIF collection here.)
  • reximuzreximuz Member Posts: 1,164 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    This community is just terrible, with terrible ideas, and a large lack of experience with any other games, especially MMOs. I can't think of anything worse then the denizens of these forums being allowed to form any kind of player council that they devs would then have to deal with.

    Salami Inferno might as well dress as Willy Wonka for the gold ticket winners.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kirimuffin wrote: »
    Uhh, they already tried that five years ago. It didn't go over well. Granted, back then PWE wasn't in the picture yet, but I don't think it would go over any better today, for largely the same reasons.

    Heh, the thread from that article...

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=147393

    ...130 pages long? Wheeeee!

    Post 1294...the final post...

    "This thread is being closed due content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~InfoNinja"

    LMFAO...cause it was a necro of the thread...lol.

    Post #6 in that thread is funny. There was even a poll. ;)
  • themariethemarie Member Posts: 1,049 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Bad idea.

    The game would become a PVP-centric DPS-free-for-all with STF-kick-option, and we'd see a whole host of game-breaking demands. For example the folks on this forum would push for standardized STF/Queue-Event builds. Don't meet standards, you will be kicked from the event. I foresee more and more and more DPS as this is the sole defining metric of fun -- if you are not pushing X0,000 DPS you are playing the game wrong.

    On the other side I see people wasting time and lobbying influence on things like vanity uniforms from specific eras and uniforms, T5/6 Connies and other things Cryptic has no desire to put in the game.

    Bad idea all around. While I don't like some of the decisions that the Devs make, putting together a group-think team to help steer the game will just make things WORSE.

    Want our opinions? Collect poll data. You have our unique @names and the emails we registered with. You can send us polls, collect data with third-party sites... Get a broad sample of opinions across the ENTIRE game. Not just the poo-flinging monkeys who populate the forum.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    themarie wrote: »
    Want our opinions? Collect poll data. You have our unique @names and the emails we registered with. You can send us polls, collect data with third-party sites... Get a broad sample of opinions across the ENTIRE game. Not just the poo-flinging monkeys who populate the forum.

    I agree 100%. Make an in game poll that pops up when you log in, that way everybody will see it even if they don't read the forums or check their email. That way there is no "trolling", no "flaming", just pure data.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,035 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I can only see this idea being fair if the major fleets like SFD and NoP each get a permanent position on the board.

    This post wins for the most hilariously ridiculous post on the forums today :)
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • cptjhuntercptjhunter Member Posts: 2,288 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    valoreah wrote: »
    This post wins for the most hilariously ridiculous post on the forums today :)

    He didn't even insist on HOBO fleet.:D
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    themarie wrote: »
    Want our opinions? Collect poll data. You have our unique @names and the emails we registered with. You can send us polls, collect data with third-party sites... Get a broad sample of opinions across the ENTIRE game. Not just the poo-flinging monkeys who populate the forum.

    PWE does not have a good track record with third-party sites, judging from Peanut Labs, so using the forum software itself is probably the best bet.

    Implementing in-game polling will probably break something, so best not to do that.

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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cptjhunter wrote: »
    He didn't even insist on HOBO fleet.:D

    Hrmm, there you go...HoBO and NoP as the members...but only if there is streaming of all the meetings. ;)
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,900 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    gulberat wrote: »
    PWE does not have a good track record with third-party sites, judging from Peanut Labs, so using the forum software itself is probably the best bet.

    Implementing in-game polling will probably break something, so best not to do that.

    Um the engine has had that ability since launch; Cryptic just hasn't used it more than twice, but it's already there (much like the in game bulletin system - and I'm not talking the 'fly in' test notifications - that they haven't used since shortly after LOR was launched.)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    By now I think even the devs know who has been around the game since day 1. Who has supported the game play and have made friendships that have transcended this online world we play in.
    Most form post are just people attacking people so it's kind of hard for them to sort through it all and find any true meaning to a thread some times.
    We've been though a community advocate and a community lead, neither are around anymore.

    Maybe what this game needs is a community board of players that PWE actually listens to; imagine that a constructive way of running not only this game but community without all the trolling and insults.
    A way to get answers without the Dev wand being waved and poof the thread is closed or a person being banned for finally getting mad and venting.
    This is not just a game anymore there are alot of free to play people that spend money on it from time to time, but PWE has to take note of those that are here as devoted fans that spend thousands of dollars a year.
    Lets face it people want to be heard not just shot down and yes I get the dichotomy of logic that surrounds the forms; on one side says well it doesn't matter if you spend money or not we are all the same. The other side see's it as well if I'm spending I should get better service.
    Just like in any good community a board u sally evens out the at time blur lines of logic and make things fair for all that live there or work in a community. Maybe Star Trek has grown to this point and people should be allowed to form a board were the devs and PWE listen and work things through and out.
    Over the past year I'v seen some good people leave the game just because they were made feel not a valued customer luckily for me I still talk to them in real life; and hold close ties...
    This suggestion to PWE and the Devs is more of a plea for consideration. It just may be very profitable to PWE and Helpful to our Devs.

    a union of players huh?

    the one unmistakeable flaw in your thinking off the bat, you are a customer you have no rights to anything on the game, including design choices. the same with your entitlement claim, you threw money at the computer screen of your own free will, you should of known better.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,911 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Ok guys. Let's not knock this thread down about me or the orange text. I think that while I have seen various instances of player-run council ideas implemented, I still think it's worth discussing. Even if I have my severe reservations.

    (I have my own ideas and plans that I'm working on. That being said I'd like to see how this talk goes)

    I see too many potential problems with finding players that serve as a fair representative of the player base. There are so many people with so many different wants and priorities that it seems like it would be impossible for the Player Base to come together enough to agree on who should represent them. It would most likely end in someone winning by a few percentage points which still leaves a large portion of the player base unhappy with the selection.

    For what it's worth, I think that communication has improved a hundred fold since you took over. I would personally, be more interested in hearing some of your ideas as I think you're doing a very good job so far.

    I respect the intention of the OP and I while it sounds like a fairly good idea, I just see too many potential problems with implementation.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I see too many potential problems with finding players that serve as a fair representative of the player base. There are so many people with so many different wants and priorities that it seems like it would be impossible for the Player Base to come together enough to agree on who should represent them. It would most likely end in someone winning by a few percentage points which still leaves a large portion of the player base unhappy with the selection.

    For what it's worth, I think that communication has improved a hundred fold since you took over. I would personally, be more interested in hearing some of your ideas as I think you're doing a very good job so far.

    I respect the intention of the OP and I while it sounds like a fairly good idea, I just see too many potential problems with implementation.

    yeah it wont work. each person has their own thoughts on what they want which could be slightly to significantly different from when he or she was voted into the player council. having a group of players wont work either, if all these players agree to an idea and decide to push their own agenda on the developers and the rest of the players dont get a say on the issue, well then you got an elected dictatorship of players.

    you will need to be careful as to who you bring into that circle because it can easily go wrong. i mean if you added me to that council, there will be more than a fair few who would be furious at the choice because of previous disagreements and what not and also because i dont follow the path of least resistance like most others players do. i have my own opinions that do not follow with that of most other players so a lot of players would see some of these things as something they may strongly disagree with. besides that i wouldnt want the position anyway, power is corruption like money, it has no hold on me, never has even though i tried it a few times over the years.

    if you added a player on this game that wants jjcrapverse in the game or ideas related to that end, i wouldnt even play the game any longer and i may not be the nly one either although there will be those types who will support it like sheeple regardless.

    anyways, you just need to be careful as to how you plan to work it though, because it could get really ugly from the start.

    also if you start polling for players for the council it will easily turn into a popularity contest and that is pure bias from the off. just as much as it is that one person from behind the scenes gets to pick who instead of a group of devs that could look at who can provide the greatest player feedback from the community and works hard to deliver results. but sometimes it doesnt always work like that either, some players maybe good at the community aspect more but not all the way so you miss some cruicial details from other players for example making it biased.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    in practice this only could work with certain players behind the curtains i believe. and more than 90% of those players i trust to have the knowledge about the game-mechanics on a wide base, have left long ago/mostly only lurking on the forums, if around at all.

    on the other hand i think, if done right it could work out very well. there are just too many examples of unbalanced/bugged stuff reported on tribble but pushed to holo nevertheless.
    the crux would be the question if the company/devs would listen to this council and its opinions.

    as this council already could be compared with all the guys giving feedback in whole, f.e. on the forums, one also may could say we already have something like a council (with a lot of amateurs, sure).
    but in the end there's a lot of good feedback on the forums, one may only has to get into the perspective to see it.

    i think it more makes sense to hire some dudes to dig the forums for the gold that's there. these dudes should have a certain level of knowledge regarding mechanics, would be pointless if they weren't able to spot the nuggets.
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,621 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Internet Entitlement being what it is today, I only see this breeding more animosity and division within the playerbase. Especially so in a free to play game with a high churn rate.
  • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,444 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    A community board is good for burocrats and socialists. I can describe those people in another way, talking 90%, thinking 10% (I am nice here), doing 0%. That is the common output of these folks. Please keep them away from my mind.

    I would say, play the game ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2z8X4gXdSo
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,828 Arc User
    edited May 2015
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  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Double post, sorry .
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    2010 called and they'd like their Advisory Council idea back ... .






    ... and that was shot down when Cryptic entertained the idea ...
  • rickdankorickdanko Member Posts: 470 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would say a "board" would do more harm than good. Each player already speaks for themselves as they decide to play/not play and spend RW $ or not.

    I also think it would present a tempting opportunity for Cryptic to co-opt the board, getting their buy-in to whatever it is Cryptic plans next.

    Don't we have enough unpaid shills on this forum already?
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,035 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    To make it fair, it should have several tiers of membership.

    Permanent seats for the people who have spent the most money on the game, have the most space money in the game, from the leading fleets like NoP and Dental and the DPS channel thing.

    Rotating seats for the common players, maybe some of them picked at random after applying, some elected by the forums. Maybe have a chronic whiner caucus and a stockholm syndrome caucus, and each gets to elect a couple. PvP forum could elect someone.


    Having the two tier system would prevent the people who have the most stuff/connections from outcompeting common players, and reduce unfairness, while at the same time recognizing that as the leading people in the game, they should be listened to.

    Maybe give ermine robes to the permanent members in game so that other player can recognize them and lobby for issues. And arm bands to the rotating members.


    How much you spent has nothing to do with whether you should be on a council or not.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • sarosssaross Member Posts: 248 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    There's a method to do this fairly. However, even with that "fairly" someone will complain that they were left out for XYZ reason.

    The ones I see being picked sadly would be the people who have one of the following issues:
    • A large following (AKA the podcasters/twitch devotees) People with zero followers and good ideas may get left out and ignored.
    • People with VERY closed opinions (IE those who even after something is declared by the company claims it's not an actual issue and belittles those complaining)
    • People who can't make a decision
    • Those who bring in ideas only to benefit a few. (IE if the council/group was filled ONLY with DPS members. or vice versa, PVP members)
    • Someone who argues with items that don't fall in line with TOS era items. This can allow for zero creative designs from Cryptic for their game.
    • Bound to happen, people who join so they can have access to troll on a different level. No trolling to some leads to a means to find a way to get in and still Troll even if under the table.

    if the above was able to be resolved perfectly, than we might have a plan. However, and not trying to be pessimistic, it's bound to happen.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,035 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I disagree, people who have spent the most have contributed the most financially to keeping the game alive.

    That in no way, shape or form means they would make a good representative of the overall playerbase.

    If you want a seat on some hypothetical council, then have others elect you.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • zathri83zathri83 Member Posts: 514 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    As long as pvpers aren't allowed on it.
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