Canon seemed to have lost all of its meaning in recent years. The dictionary describes canon as whatever the majority of fans "agree" that which "counts"... which is pretty much a matter of opinion. In the context that I've ever seen "canon" used is pretty much synonymous with "in-continuity". "soft-canon" pretty much means "timelines which diverged from the main continuity before additional retcon". And "headcanon" pretty much means "fanfiction that probably hasn't been documented yet".
Just a random thought post here. May or may not be relevant to anything.
Canon seemed to have lost all of its meaning in recent years. The dictionary describes canon as whatever the majority of fans "agree" that which "counts"... which is pretty much a matter of opinion. In the context that I've ever seen "canon" used is pretty much synonymous with "in-continuity". "soft-canon" pretty much means "timelines which diverged from the main continuity before additional retcon". And "headcanon" pretty much means "fanfiction that probably hasn't been documented yet".
Just a random thought post here. May or may not be relevant to anything.
I think it's funny that so many people claim Star Trek canon/continuity is completely nebulous and all over the place. But this is not the case, Star Trek canon is maybe the best documented of all franchises. According to published, official definition, everything that "counts" is what was broadcasted or shown on the big screen. All shows, all movies. I don't think there's anything "nebulous" going on here
"Soft canon" is just fanfiction (including licensed works which is explicitly excluded from continuity) which got a fancy term to make it sound somehow important or semi-official, but that's pretty much nonsense. If course a licensed/fanwork has a "canon" of it's own, for example the "Elite Force" games (1 and 2) are consistent which each other. But why would you call that "soft canon"? It's one work an it's sequel, it is expected that it sports coherent canon. But nothing in those games has any relevance when you want to discuss Star Trek canon.
"Headcanon" is a mockery term for simply connecting loose ends in your head to explain stuff that wasn't established on-screen. Naturally, everybody headcanons all the time by interpeting the stuff we see
And then there are things like the technical manuals, okudagrams and production notes. I agree that these are a little bit debateable and thus considered "Apocryphal". What sets those apart from licensed work is that they have been made for the show by the people making the show but were either invisible (Technical manual is the writer's guide behind the scenes, Okudagrams were used inb ackground shots and until HD became a thing wasn't recongizable) or cut from what appeared in the final piece of work (cut scenes, unused script parts). This is the only time I can udnerstand people engaging in debate wether it "counts" or not. In my opinion it does count as long as the final product (what's on screen) doesn't contradict the unused part.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Um.. the ORIGINAL Star Trek Technical Manual.. the one written for TOS , by Franz Joseph I understand has some licencing issues.. CBS, and Paramount both counsider it "Not Canon" for licencing purposes.. And the Franz Joseph manual is the basis for for the Lou Zocci Star Ship combat game of the 80's and the Starfleet Battle/ Star fleet command and the rest of the trek based products originally from Amarillo Design.. Those aren't projects.
There actually is three different star trek timelines out there.. It's the original series that mucks everything up as usuall lad and lassies.
Khemaraa sends..
And I'm really not here to argue the semantics of it.. I do know that CBS has taken a hard line on what CBS considers canon. And Cryptics contract with CBS has to respect what CBS says is so...
Just so that clear.. I recall several Dev's from cryptic going into great detals about what they were allowed to do, and not do, and how all "lore" in stories had, and still has to be vetted by CBS before they can actually include it in the game.
But this is not the case, Star Trek canon is maybe the best documented of all franchises.
I guess you never watched Babylon 5, leaves Trek far behind. Best space sci-fi series ever and things that appear in visions etc in season one, come to happen in season 4.
If they ever made a B5 MMO I would leave this game in a heartbeat.
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Once again, Klingons are portrayed as some fur wearing space orcs. I wonder how they ever managed to build solid structures...
If you don't know, this poetic masterpiece is spewed out by the Klingon Gorath who fill sthe position of chief tactical officer in operation "Delta Flight", the new FE.
I just took it as even Klingon engineers see use the perspective of battle as their aspiration to excellence. Sure, Kahless knew enough to come in from the storm, but he didn't have stem bolts to laugh at its impotent fury.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
I just took it as even Klingon engineers see use the perspective of battle as their aspiration to excellence. Sure, Kahless knew enough to come in from the storm, but he didn't have stem bolts to laugh at its impotent fury.
It's not about talking of battle, it's how he talks of battle. Would "Most weapons Starfleet issues are... insufficient. I like to make some custom improvements to our gear." be too much to ask? The Klingon society is a warriors society (literally and metaphorically), but also a society of loresingers, legends and opera.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It's not about talking of battle, it's how he talks of battle. Would "Most weapons Starfleet issues are... insufficient. I like to make some custom improvements to our gear." be too much to ask? The Klingon society is a warriors society (literally and metaphorically), but also a society of loresingers, legends and opera.
That's a fair point.
Of course, this is the guy the KDF didn't want so he's off playing Dirty Dozen....
But yeah, that's not what they were thinking.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
The only reference to Klingon Intelligence in the game is a tongue-in-cheek Doff mission. Which is sort of insulting if you like the KDF
The KDF runs a master spy network, with undercover operatives everywhere. When I think of Klingons, I think of cold war Russia or modern day South Korea. I don't think of idiotic orcs with ridges.
It's obvious the devs don't think that way. To them Klingons are bumbling doofuses who offer a monster-play experience. So now that the Fed/KDF war is ending, the faction is being reduced to comedy relief and catchphrases. :rolleyes:
It's been that way for five years.. so I'm not on a holdout for any changes soon. Someday someone will come up with a faction game, where the "red side" isn't always a bunch of monsters and idiotic brutes.
I'm actually playing my Klingon tac as a "real" intelligence officer. I like my Qib battlecruiser more and more everyday.
My problem is that most of the Klingons we meet in the game regardless of faction perspective are the "eat any good books lately" variety a la season one Worf. Would it really kill them to write a Klingon that is not this archtype for once?
Canon: Everything on-screen. TOS, TAS (was recopnciled by CBS in 2011 I think, they had a website announcement on Startrek.com), TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and all movies including JJ. /JJ is a alternate reality, as the movie itself states. For that reality though it is canon, just as the Hobus thing).
Everything else: Not canon. There is no such a thing as "soft canon", that's just a fancy term made up by fans to make it sound more important
Except that you can flip that around with the right frame of mind (ie. that of player).
STO: Canon
Star Trek: Non-canon (contributes to but does not totally inform game).
Once again, Klingons are portrayed as some fur wearing space orcs.
And besides what's waaaaaaaaagh with that?
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My problem is that most of the Klingons we meet in the game regardless of faction perspective are the "eat any good books lately" variety a la season one Worf. Would it really kill them to write a Klingon that is not this archtype for once?
I'm afraid yes...
Lol.
I could write now how much of a one dimensional point of view Cryptics devs have about Star trek and how much this annoys me, but i won't.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Once again, Klingons are portrayed as some fur wearing space orcs. I wonder how they ever managed to build solid structures...
If you don't know, this poetic masterpiece is spewed out by the Klingon Gorath who fill sthe position of chief tactical officer in operation "Delta Flight", the new FE.
Good observation. As a people, they created a viable Empire. To portray them in this light does the Star Trek universe an injustice and perpetuates an untruth. I know this is sci-fi, but there has to be some semblance of realism in it in order to make the storyline believable. To portray the Klingons as mindless brutes doesn't add up to what they've accomplished in the Star Trek universe.
Good observation. As a people, they created a viable Empire. To portray them in this light does the Star Trek universe an injustice and perpetuates an untruth. I know this is sci-fi, but there has to be some semblance of realism in it in order to make the storyline believable. To portray the Klingons as mindless brutes doesn't add up to what they've accomplished in the Star Trek universe.
Yet they often act like barbarians with particle beam weapons... In the TV show.... Remember what the Klingons did in TMP? Yeah.... That's typical Klingon behavior.
Yet they often act like barbarians with particle beam weapons... In the TV show.... Remember what the Klingons did in TMP? Yeah.... That's typical Klingon behavior.
What was wrong with what they did in TMP? Alien intruder that, although we didn't see this part, probably didn't respond to their hails. The patrol came across the cloud in their space. Also...particle beam weapons...your proving the point. If they were mindless dolts, how the heck did they pull all the technology off? Nothing wrong with what they did in TMP. Ineffective against that particular enemy, but nothing that would peg them as mindless or barbaric. It was a normal reaction to an intruder who didn't respond to their authority in their space.
As KDF player, this arguing back and forth over what it canon and what isn't, it typical Klingon behavior. The players are keeping the Klingons typical right now. Me on the other hand, my main is a Klingon Tactical officer. Do I adhere to some of the typical behavior for a Klingon, yes. Do i let it get in my way in how I deal with others and do things to help them out, no. There are many sides to strength. To not accept your weakness itsn't strength. It's just denial. Once you can accept that weakness and make it a part of who you are. You will be stronger for it. Thusly the player base can move forward from the opinion of Klingons as big, dumb warriors. This you have to change. I accepted that weakness and then started looking for ways to make it stronger, so that I could grow stronger as a whole. Which is why I went through the trouble of putting FOUR ships together to help us out. This is where your attention should be. Because these are ships that show people that, "Hey klingons aren't just big, dumb warriors." But instead I find y'all up here, quibbling like, well, like klingons. take in to account everything you a Klingon has to know. You're bridge crew, your duty officers, and your ship. These are things that all Klingons have to have an understanding of. Do they have to know everything about it, no. But they do have to know enough about it to assign the right person for the job. Which means a smattering of understanding of all the jobs that encompasses.
My question to you. Are you going to remain secular in your views? Or are you going to have the flars to step out and show the galaxy that you're more than just a Barbarian with highly dangerous weapons at your disposal?
Flars: Orion word for balls, nuts, testicles, etc.
What was wrong with what they did in TMP? Alien intruder that, although we didn't see this part, probably didn't respond to their hails. The patrol came across the cloud in their space. Also...particle beam weapons...your proving the point. If they were mindless dolts, how the heck did they pull all the technology off? Nothing wrong with what they did in TMP. Ineffective against that particular enemy, but nothing that would peg them as mindless or barbaric. It was a normal reaction to an intruder who didn't respond to their authority in their space.
I agree.
Even todays armies would act like that. (well that wasn't a good comparison...)
The enterprise Crew only suceeded because of their experience with Godlike entities. I bet some other Starfleet crew of that time would have failed just like the klingons did.
What bugs me about how Klingons are portrayed on TV and especially in STO, is that there are only few reasonable Characters among them being shown.
What i would like to see are people like Martok, or Kolos (ENT:2x19).
You can say what you want about Enterprise, but i liked that Klingon character and i wished there where many more like him, instead of all those drunken brutes we got to see.
From Kolos, we learn more about Klingon culture than in a whole season of TNG.
"You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?" "I guess I did." "My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now, all young people want to do is to take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there is honor in victory any victory. What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society, not so long ago. When honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed." "For thousands of years, my people had similar problems. We fought three world wars that almost destroyed us. Whole generations were nearly wiped out." "What changed?" "A few courageous people began to realize... they could make a difference."
- Kolos and Archer
IF the KDF would have been portrayed better than just repeating stereotypes i think many more people would be willing to take a closer look at it and roll a Klingon.
We were a great society, not so long ago. When honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed.[/B]"
Some (KDF) players should make sure to rememer this. (no offense)
I think somewhen before that Episode (maybe 20-50 years before) there was a big shift in Klingon society where obviously people come to power who took all of their myths and legends LITERAL without questioning it. That trend kept on even in the 25th century, which is a pity thb.
Klingon Culture could be so much more interesting if they wheren't portrayed so one dimensional.
Sorry for interrupting you guys.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
What was wrong with what they did in TMP? Alien intruder that, although we didn't see this part, probably didn't respond to their hails. The patrol came across the cloud in their space. Also...particle beam weapons...your proving the point. If they were mindless dolts, how the heck did they pull all the technology off? Nothing wrong with what they did in TMP. Ineffective against that particular enemy, but nothing that would peg them as mindless or barbaric. It was a normal reaction to an intruder who didn't respond to their authority in their space.
I didn't say mindless.... I simply said barbarians. They're Space Barbarians therefore they obviously understand technology. :P
To those who have issues with how Klingons are portrayed in STO and Star Trek, go ahead have
those issues. I have no problem with their portrayals. I don't see them as space orcs or space Vikings or another thing like that. I see them as a warrior race (which apparently also has farmers according to STO), some drink a lot, some might drink a little to consider themselves Klingon, etc, and as a race that has great science different from Wrex's race in Mass Effect, but is underappreciated and underrated. So I have no problem with them. To me, I see that they are warriors but they have heart as well and that is how I am RPing my character Korn, who is still not at the highest level. There is this mask they show the outside world, but when you learn more about the culture and not just what they reveal to the outside world, you start to appreciate it, respect it, even if one might not agree with it. Those are my two cents. Love Star Trek and STO. Keep on trekking through the galaxy, my fellow players. Thanks.
Good observation. As a people, they created a viable Empire. To portray them in this light does the Star Trek universe an injustice and perpetuates an untruth. I know this is sci-fi, but there has to be some semblance of realism in it in order to make the storyline believable. To portray the Klingons as mindless brutes doesn't add up to what they've accomplished in the Star Trek universe.
The Klingons were also one of the earlier of the Alpha quadrant species to have warp drive, they beat the humans to the punch by a large margin.
They afterall have an empire and are enough of a threat to make the Vulcans steer clear of them.
The Klingons were also one of the earlier of the Alpha quadrant species to have warp drive, they beat the humans to the punch by a large margin.
They afterall have an empire and are enough of a threat to make the Vulcans steer clear of them.
I found some contradictory statements about when klingons did archieve Warp drive:
Memory Alpha: Klingon history
According to Quark, Klingons achieved warp drive sometime after 1947. By the year 2152, Klingon vessels would be capable of warp 6. (DS9: "Little Green Men"; ENT: "Judgment")
It is stated in the Star Trek: Star Charts (p. 55) that Klingons had achieved warp capability in the year 930, which is a reference to the Boreth monastery being built shortly after Kahless' death. However, Quark specifically stated in "Little Green Men" that the Ferengi would have had warp drive before the Klingons, had he delivered warp technology to Ferenginar in 1947. See Little Green Men - Trivia for more information.
But there's another factor that should not be forgotten:
Memory Alpha: Klingon history
In the 14th century the Klingons suffered a devastating conquest and sack by the Hur'q. The Hur'q were a powerful race from the Gamma Quadrant, possibly using the Bajoran wormhole to reach Qo'noS. Although they did not stay long, either because of their nomadic way of life or because of fierce resistance from the Klingons, they did not leave before taking many valuable cultural treasures, including the revered Sword of Kahless. (ENT: "Affliction"; DS9: "The Sword of Kahless")
If they didn't destroy every piece of high tech equipment from the Hur'q, they must have at least access to 22th century tech (or more which is very likely) in that time.
But if we consider Quarks statement, that Klingons earned warp capability in the mid 20th century, it would mean they needed almost 600 years to reverse engineer the Hur'qs Warpdrive.
Now don't get me wrong, but i think Klingons did get much more than just warp drive from the remains of the Hur'q. I think they got most of the key tech (weapons and civilian tech) also from the Hur'q, or later from much less warlike species after they had access to warpdrive.
Alone the fact they managed to beat and harry the Hur'q invaders from Qo'noS, requires them to use the Hur'q own technology against them (the Hur'q where explicit referred as powerful race, so no Swords against disruptors IMO.). That means they could handle that tech, but most likely not copy or reverse engineer it for a long time.
I don't say it is the only way things could have been, but i think it fits to the rest of Klingon history.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I found some contradictory statements about when klingons did archieve Warp drive:
But there's another factor that should not be forgotten:
If they didn't destroy every piece of high tech equipment from the Hur'q, they must have at least access to 22th century tech (or more which is very likely) in that time.
But if we consider Quarks statement, that Klingons earned warp capability in the mid 20th century, it would mean they needed almost 600 years to reverse engineer the Hur'qs Warpdrive.
Now don't get me wrong, but i think Klingons did get much more than just warp drive from the remains of the Hur'q. I think they got most of the key tech (weapons and civilian tech) also from the Hur'q, or later from much less warlike species after they had access to warpdrive.
Alone the fact they managed to beat and harry the Hur'q invaders from Qo'noS, requires them to use the Hur'q own technology against them (the Hur'q where explicit referred as powerful race, so no Swords against disruptors IMO.). That means they could handle that tech, but most likely not copy or reverse engineer it for a long time.
I don't say it is the only way things could have been, but i think it fits to the rest of Klingon history.
Ultimately it depends what sources you believe as they basically contradict each other, the Klingons being able to reverse the Hur'q technology at all is a testament to their intelligence since they were basically at a medieval level when the Hur'q showed up. I imagine we would struggle now if we were suddenly handed the same kind of technology.
tl;dr There is plenty of evidence whichever way you look at it that the Klingons are actually rather smarter than people give them credit for.
As for little green men, well its kind of a weird one to place as it contradicts a lot of established canon about who had warp drive first, it puts the Vulcans as not having it in 1947 while Enterprise puts them as having interstellar travel way before then. Same deal with the Klingons and Boreth. Quark also says it took the humans centuries from 1947 to achieve warp, it took 116 years.
As for little green men, well its kind of a weird one to place as it contradicts a lot of established canon about who had warp drive first, it puts the Vulcans as not having it in 1947 while Enterprise puts them as having interstellar travel way before then. Same deal with the Klingons and Boreth. Quark also says it took the humans centuries from 1947 to achieve warp, it took 116 years.
i'd just put that as quark being melodramatic, not as biblical fact
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
What was wrong with what they did in TMP? Alien intruder that, although we didn't see this part, probably didn't respond to their hails. The patrol came across the cloud in their space. Also...particle beam weapons...your proving the point. If they were mindless dolts, how the heck did they pull all the technology off?
Well, if that's your argument, you're obviously fine with the potrayal of the Delta Flight Klingon. After all, he doesn't just talk about "puny weapons" - he even explains what he did to make them better, which clearly requires intellect and skill.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, if that's your argument, you're obviously fine with the potrayal of the Delta Flight Klingon. After all, he doesn't just talk about "puny weapons" - he even explains what he did to make them better, which clearly requires intellect and skill.
I know what are you going for, but the TMP Klingons did actually act in a reasonable manner, as far as reasonable and military can be used in the same sentence
They were headed out to respond to a violation of their space, the aggressor didn't reply to hails (we just assume there's at least a warning) and continues to approach. V'Ger wouzldn't have responded differently to them regardless of wether they fired a shot or not and it IS Klingon temperament to punch the other guy if he doesn't cooperate which is reflected in their military tactics. That however doesn't mean that we have to encounter the trigger happy jughead stereotype every time we meet a Klingon, especially since a game would have a lot of possibilities to explore other kinds of Klingons where the shows left off. In all fairness, the Klingon in charge of the whole Iconian Defense doesn't come around as a mindless brute, but that may be just because he hasn't much lines anyway.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I know what are you going for, but the TMP Klingons did actually act in a reasonable manner, as far as reasonable and military can be used in the same sentence
They were headed out to respond to a violation of their space, the aggressor didn't reply to hails (we just assume there's at least a warning) and continues to approach. V'Ger wouzldn't have responded differently to them regardless of wether they fired a shot or not and it IS Klingon temperament to punch the other guy if he doesn't cooperate which is reflected in their military tactics.
Basicly the reasons to send someone to investigate V'Ger are the same for Klingons as for Starfleet, because their borders where violated.
The only difference are the means that where ultimately used by the klingons. Who knows, how long they where trying to communicate with V'Ger? Maybe they where following V'Ger for days without any success.
(But i can't seriously think they where trying as hard as a Starfleet crew would)
That however doesn't mean that we have to encounter the trigger happy jughead stereotype every time we meet a Klingon, especially since a game would have a lot of possibilities to explore other kinds of Klingons where the shows left off. In all fairness, the Klingon in charge of the whole Iconian Defense doesn't come around as a mindless brute, but that may be just because he hasn't much lines anyway.
Yeah, he's a welcome change for all those stupid Captain Korens out there.
(man i hate that character, everything she says annoys the hell out of me. lol.)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Basicly the reasons to send someone to investigate V'Ger are the same for Klingons as for Starfleet, because their borders where violated.
The only difference are the means that where ultimately used by the klingons. Who knows, how long they where trying to communicate with V'Ger? Maybe they where following V'Ger for days without any success.
(But i can't seriously think they where trying as hard as a Starfleet crew would)
I largely agree. They didn't seem like they were going full frontal assault, it was more of a "enough with this, let the torpedo do the talk then" situation. I believe honestly a Starfleet crew that was not the Enterprise would ultimately act the same way. Maybe they would have launched a probe first as Kirk's crew did if I remember correctly but the result was ultimately the same. It was just because they're hoo-mans which allowed them to live, basically
Yeah, he's a welcome change for all those stupid Captain Korens out there.
(man i hate that character, everything she says annoys the hell out of me. lol.)
Koren is just over the top. I get what she's supposed to be, but it's just too much. She's basically Shatnering her role.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
Just a random thought post here. May or may not be relevant to anything.
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I think it's funny that so many people claim Star Trek canon/continuity is completely nebulous and all over the place. But this is not the case, Star Trek canon is maybe the best documented of all franchises. According to published, official definition, everything that "counts" is what was broadcasted or shown on the big screen. All shows, all movies. I don't think there's anything "nebulous" going on here
"Soft canon" is just fanfiction (including licensed works which is explicitly excluded from continuity) which got a fancy term to make it sound somehow important or semi-official, but that's pretty much nonsense. If course a licensed/fanwork has a "canon" of it's own, for example the "Elite Force" games (1 and 2) are consistent which each other. But why would you call that "soft canon"? It's one work an it's sequel, it is expected that it sports coherent canon. But nothing in those games has any relevance when you want to discuss Star Trek canon.
"Headcanon" is a mockery term for simply connecting loose ends in your head to explain stuff that wasn't established on-screen. Naturally, everybody headcanons all the time by interpeting the stuff we see
And then there are things like the technical manuals, okudagrams and production notes. I agree that these are a little bit debateable and thus considered "Apocryphal". What sets those apart from licensed work is that they have been made for the show by the people making the show but were either invisible (Technical manual is the writer's guide behind the scenes, Okudagrams were used inb ackground shots and until HD became a thing wasn't recongizable) or cut from what appeared in the final piece of work (cut scenes, unused script parts). This is the only time I can udnerstand people engaging in debate wether it "counts" or not. In my opinion it does count as long as the final product (what's on screen) doesn't contradict the unused part.
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There actually is three different star trek timelines out there.. It's the original series that mucks everything up as usuall lad and lassies.
Khemaraa sends..
And I'm really not here to argue the semantics of it.. I do know that CBS has taken a hard line on what CBS considers canon. And Cryptics contract with CBS has to respect what CBS says is so...
Just so that clear.. I recall several Dev's from cryptic going into great detals about what they were allowed to do, and not do, and how all "lore" in stories had, and still has to be vetted by CBS before they can actually include it in the game.
I guess you never watched Babylon 5, leaves Trek far behind. Best space sci-fi series ever and things that appear in visions etc in season one, come to happen in season 4.
If they ever made a B5 MMO I would leave this game in a heartbeat.
I just took it as even Klingon engineers see use the perspective of battle as their aspiration to excellence. Sure, Kahless knew enough to come in from the storm, but he didn't have stem bolts to laugh at its impotent fury.
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
It's not about talking of battle, it's how he talks of battle. Would "Most weapons Starfleet issues are... insufficient. I like to make some custom improvements to our gear." be too much to ask? The Klingon society is a warriors society (literally and metaphorically), but also a society of loresingers, legends and opera.
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That's a fair point.
Of course, this is the guy the KDF didn't want so he's off playing Dirty Dozen....
But yeah, that's not what they were thinking.
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
I'm actually playing my Klingon tac as a "real" intelligence officer. I like my Qib battlecruiser more and more everyday.
Except that you can flip that around with the right frame of mind (ie. that of player).
STO: Canon
Star Trek: Non-canon (contributes to but does not totally inform game).
It should also be stated ->:P
And besides what's waaaaaaaaagh with that?
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Lol.
I could write now how much of a one dimensional point of view Cryptics devs have about Star trek and how much this annoys me, but i won't.
Good observation. As a people, they created a viable Empire. To portray them in this light does the Star Trek universe an injustice and perpetuates an untruth. I know this is sci-fi, but there has to be some semblance of realism in it in order to make the storyline believable. To portray the Klingons as mindless brutes doesn't add up to what they've accomplished in the Star Trek universe.
My character Tsin'xing
What was wrong with what they did in TMP? Alien intruder that, although we didn't see this part, probably didn't respond to their hails. The patrol came across the cloud in their space. Also...particle beam weapons...your proving the point. If they were mindless dolts, how the heck did they pull all the technology off? Nothing wrong with what they did in TMP. Ineffective against that particular enemy, but nothing that would peg them as mindless or barbaric. It was a normal reaction to an intruder who didn't respond to their authority in their space.
My question to you. Are you going to remain secular in your views? Or are you going to have the flars to step out and show the galaxy that you're more than just a Barbarian with highly dangerous weapons at your disposal?
Flars: Orion word for balls, nuts, testicles, etc.
Even todays armies would act like that. (well that wasn't a good comparison...)
The enterprise Crew only suceeded because of their experience with Godlike entities. I bet some other Starfleet crew of that time would have failed just like the klingons did.
What bugs me about how Klingons are portrayed on TV and especially in STO, is that there are only few reasonable Characters among them being shown.
What i would like to see are people like Martok, or Kolos (ENT:2x19).
You can say what you want about Enterprise, but i liked that Klingon character and i wished there where many more like him, instead of all those drunken brutes we got to see.
From Kolos, we learn more about Klingon culture than in a whole season of TNG.
IF the KDF would have been portrayed better than just repeating stereotypes i think many more people would be willing to take a closer look at it and roll a Klingon.
Some (KDF) players should make sure to rememer this. (no offense)
I think somewhen before that Episode (maybe 20-50 years before) there was a big shift in Klingon society where obviously people come to power who took all of their myths and legends LITERAL without questioning it. That trend kept on even in the 25th century, which is a pity thb.
Klingon Culture could be so much more interesting if they wheren't portrayed so one dimensional.
Sorry for interrupting you guys.
My character Tsin'xing
those issues. I have no problem with their portrayals. I don't see them as space orcs or space Vikings or another thing like that. I see them as a warrior race (which apparently also has farmers according to STO), some drink a lot, some might drink a little to consider themselves Klingon, etc, and as a race that has great science different from Wrex's race in Mass Effect, but is underappreciated and underrated. So I have no problem with them. To me, I see that they are warriors but they have heart as well and that is how I am RPing my character Korn, who is still not at the highest level. There is this mask they show the outside world, but when you learn more about the culture and not just what they reveal to the outside world, you start to appreciate it, respect it, even if one might not agree with it. Those are my two cents. Love Star Trek and STO. Keep on trekking through the galaxy, my fellow players. Thanks.
And if the three ever meet, heaven help the target!
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
The Klingons were also one of the earlier of the Alpha quadrant species to have warp drive, they beat the humans to the punch by a large margin.
They afterall have an empire and are enough of a threat to make the Vulcans steer clear of them.
I found some contradictory statements about when klingons did archieve Warp drive:
But there's another factor that should not be forgotten: If they didn't destroy every piece of high tech equipment from the Hur'q, they must have at least access to 22th century tech (or more which is very likely) in that time.
But if we consider Quarks statement, that Klingons earned warp capability in the mid 20th century, it would mean they needed almost 600 years to reverse engineer the Hur'qs Warpdrive.
Now don't get me wrong, but i think Klingons did get much more than just warp drive from the remains of the Hur'q. I think they got most of the key tech (weapons and civilian tech) also from the Hur'q, or later from much less warlike species after they had access to warpdrive.
Alone the fact they managed to beat and harry the Hur'q invaders from Qo'noS, requires them to use the Hur'q own technology against them (the Hur'q where explicit referred as powerful race, so no Swords against disruptors IMO.). That means they could handle that tech, but most likely not copy or reverse engineer it for a long time.
I don't say it is the only way things could have been, but i think it fits to the rest of Klingon history.
Ultimately it depends what sources you believe as they basically contradict each other, the Klingons being able to reverse the Hur'q technology at all is a testament to their intelligence since they were basically at a medieval level when the Hur'q showed up. I imagine we would struggle now if we were suddenly handed the same kind of technology.
tl;dr There is plenty of evidence whichever way you look at it that the Klingons are actually rather smarter than people give them credit for.
As for little green men, well its kind of a weird one to place as it contradicts a lot of established canon about who had warp drive first, it puts the Vulcans as not having it in 1947 while Enterprise puts them as having interstellar travel way before then. Same deal with the Klingons and Boreth. Quark also says it took the humans centuries from 1947 to achieve warp, it took 116 years.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I know what are you going for, but the TMP Klingons did actually act in a reasonable manner, as far as reasonable and military can be used in the same sentence
They were headed out to respond to a violation of their space, the aggressor didn't reply to hails (we just assume there's at least a warning) and continues to approach. V'Ger wouzldn't have responded differently to them regardless of wether they fired a shot or not and it IS Klingon temperament to punch the other guy if he doesn't cooperate which is reflected in their military tactics. That however doesn't mean that we have to encounter the trigger happy jughead stereotype every time we meet a Klingon, especially since a game would have a lot of possibilities to explore other kinds of Klingons where the shows left off. In all fairness, the Klingon in charge of the whole Iconian Defense doesn't come around as a mindless brute, but that may be just because he hasn't much lines anyway.
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[/SIGPIC]
The only difference are the means that where ultimately used by the klingons. Who knows, how long they where trying to communicate with V'Ger? Maybe they where following V'Ger for days without any success.
(But i can't seriously think they where trying as hard as a Starfleet crew would)
Yeah, he's a welcome change for all those stupid Captain Korens out there.
(man i hate that character, everything she says annoys the hell out of me. lol.)
I largely agree. They didn't seem like they were going full frontal assault, it was more of a "enough with this, let the torpedo do the talk then" situation. I believe honestly a Starfleet crew that was not the Enterprise would ultimately act the same way. Maybe they would have launched a probe first as Kirk's crew did if I remember correctly but the result was ultimately the same. It was just because they're hoo-mans which allowed them to live, basically
Koren is just over the top. I get what she's supposed to be, but it's just too much. She's basically Shatnering her role.
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