And again I ask... do we know it's only 3 queues and 2 episodes?
Even if it is, I would be floored if they didn't add a fair number more as the season progresses.
And again ... S10 is going to be released on Tuesday ... aka the current Tribble Built ... and there is probably a reason, for recycling old Delta Patrols for Iconian Marks ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
First of all, the Iconians are not the only ancient super power out there. There is races much older then they are, one we already meet -the voth-. But in STO they are only a fraction of how strong they truely are, according to Voyager show (voth are like 50+ million of years old, while Iconians are only 1-2 million). Then you got the Caretakers, a race the <seeded> the galaxy with life, yes it is said they are completely dead. But same was said about the Iconians, and here they are ready to fight us.
Then you got the Q (we know they are not going to do anything except mess with us a little), who we have learned there as a few races out there about as strong as they are themselves. One of which Kirk has meet when he won in a life or dead fight with a Gorn (i can't remember their name).
So there is much more stuff that PWE-Crypic can throw at us. Some people say the borg will come back to invade, but after seeing all the story in Delta Quadrant, I don't think so. Not with the borg as divided as it is, and all the anti-borg weapons we got, heck we may even have a anti-nanobot weapon that will stop assimilation. Right now the borg is like 20% of it's strength it had back in seasons 1-4, and dropping, heck even the Voth are taking a anti-borg approach (though they don't care what side the borg are on). Only way the Borg will live though all this is if they get some Iconian tech lol.
Another thing I think may happen is the Dominion (the real Dominion, not the True-Way's Dominion) will make a come back. Like they found some Iconian or even more advanced tech, from a older race. Then learned how to use it (while keeping the Jem'Hader in line this time lol, think they learned their lesson from the last time they discovered a Iconian gateway).
- DR had 8-9 Story Episodes when it launched (+ Patrols)
- LOR had 41, not just the Romulan Episodes, but also early KDF Missions etc
It's pretty easy really, you just have to count ...
.
Counting eh?
LoR
Tutorials: 2
Allies: 5
Shadows: 6
Vengeance: 6
Wasteland: 5
KDF: 11 (being very generous as to what counts as a mission)
Total: 35 (I assume you reached 41 by counting the non-mission contact check-ins listed with the series. I may have dropped one or two "missions" by not counting what were primarily contact check-ins but its better in this case to use the more conservative estimate.)
Delta Rising:
Main Story: 10 (+2 added prior to S10, 3 with uneasy allies but its easier to interpret that as a s10 pre-release)
Kobali Prime: 10
Patrols: 20
Total: 40 (+2)
The only way your math works out (to be DR<<<LoR) is arbitrarily deciding that story as presented through ground or space sections only isn't really "a mission." For example you've counted KDF and LoR "missions" which are woeful even on the scale of "arbitrary space combat to pad out the playtime" but somehow better written/presented/structured patrols and ground missions don't count? Or similarly that adventure zone missions listed in an episode series are fundamentally more "content" than adventure zone missions listed at a terminal.
Your sir are talking out of your TRIBBLE. It might be self-satisfying to do so but its not a spectacle the rest of the world wants to see. Try to be more objective, use fewer self-satisfying criteria (which just shows you're tyring to fit facts to suit an opinion) and you might just get a better grip on things. :P
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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LoR
Tutorials: 2
Allies: 5
Shadows: 6
Vengeance: 6
Wasteland: 5
KDF: 11 (being very generous as to what counts as a mission)
Total: 35 (I assume you reached 41 by counting the non-mission contact check-ins listed with the series.)
Delta Rising:
Main Story: 10 (+2 added prior to S10)
Kobali Prime: 10
Patrols: 20
Total: 40 (+2)
The only way your math works out is arbitrarily deciding that story as presented through ground or space sections only isn't really "a mission." For example you've counted KDF and LoR missions which are deficient even on the scale of "arbitrary space combat to pad out the playtime" but somehow better written/presented/structured patrols and ground missions don't count?
Your sir are talking out of your TRIBBLE. It might be self-satisfying to do so but its not a spectacle the rest of the world wants to see.
LOR :
Tutorials: 2 From the Ashes : 7 (yep you just ignored an entire Arc)
Allies: 5
Shadows: 6
Vengeance: 7
Wasteland: 5
+ 11 KDF
= 43
DR :
Yes I'm only counting 8-9 Story Episodes ... no "Shoot 5x" - Patrols ... no BZ Cutscenes etc ... no Episodes after Launch etc ... simply because we had those in LOR as well ...
=>
- "new" Nukura Reputation including new "Missions"
- several FE's introducing the Dyson Zone before S8
etc etc
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
You cant really claim content isn't and issue when the the effective xp requirements for capping have not just exploded but gone supernova. If there's not enough to level off for ten then adding a supplementary system that requires even more vast amounts just makes playing the game seem a soul destroying excercise in futility.
Might have been nice if the xp buff in the command tree wasn't stuck in the top end for reasons unknown or that they'd allowed a one time respec when that tree came out as it's maybe the more desirable tree to work on first.
AS was just pointed out DR had 20 patrols to get done and thanks to the setup of the expansion those were the core of levelling. Kobali ground stuff was ground stuff so to spend time there you have to actually enjoy the way ground combat works. Again there were large voids where there was no progress.
Did they ever give the xp there a boost or is it still single digits per kill? If the xp wasnt tweaked then the only option is to grind those very repetitive patrols.
Other dodgy aspect to DR was the gear that got increased to 14, makes sense, and yet the majority of rewards were still the same as level 50 gear. No nudge upwards at all. Probably because of the upgrade system which is another grindy setup.
One of the things that people like about levelling is that you get new and better gear, new and better abilities yet a lot of that is absent. Not much in the spec trees beyond passive buffs here or there and those take a long time to get unless you're able and willing to sink countless hours into mindless repetition.
LOR :
Tutorials: 2 From the Ashes : 7 (yep you just ignored an entire Arc)
Allies: 5
Shadows: 6
Vengeance: 7
Wasteland: 5
+ 11 KDF
= 43
DR :
Yes I'm only counting 8-9 Story Episodes ... no Patrols ... no BZ Cutscenes etc ... no Episodes after Launch etc ... simply because we had those in LOR as well ...
- new Nukura Reputation including new "Missions"
- several FE's introducing the Dyson Zone before S8
etc etc
+1 FE introducting the Dyson sphere before S8 (just Spheres of Influence)
-Nukara "missions" are analogous to the various kobali battlezone objectives (found and random). If we wanted to broaden the definition, well we're still at analogous content volumes (its just that Kobali Prime also had discrete story missions in addition to grindable objectives.)
-And yah so I missed that arc but what we're left with there is +6
I say 6 and not 7 because the last, I point out again, is just a contact check in with in this case a single space combat section (making it a marginal mission at the very, very best). Why is that "content" but not a patrol? Plot, structure, gameplay what on earth are you using for objective criteria? Well quite frankly you aren't, which is how you can count 7 from vengence. If picking a shuttle up from new romulus command is "content" over the whole of Kobali prime, you sir have no business here.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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You cant really claim content isn't and issue when the the effective xp requirements for capping have not just exploded but gone supernova. If there's not enough to level off for ten then adding a supplementary system that requires even more vast amounts just makes playing the game seem a soul destroying excercise in futility.
Yes but if you lowered the xp requirements (or provided an extra boost to existing characters so they'd be approaching DR at the 53-55 level which I've found is where new characters tend to line up) you would have a workable expansion (ie. something at a scale consistent with pervious releases.) If you added enough content to fill the 50-60 progression as designed, you're looking at the development of a second STO.
Therefore, you can't assume the situation that level from 50-60 is fine, its just hurting for more missions. Rather the more reasonable explanation is that leveing from 50 at the time of DR had issues while content was more or less fine.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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I say 6 and not 7 because the last, I point out again, is just a contact check in with in this case a single space combat section (making it a marginal mission at the very, very best). Why is that "content" but not a patrol? Plot, structure, gameplay what on earth are you using for objective criteria? Well quite frankly you aren't, which is how you can count 7 from vengence. If picking a shuttle up from new romulus command is "content" over the whole of Kobali prime, you sir have no business here.
So it comes down to :
Why are Story Episodes better, than 20x Shoot 5 Waves of Enemies x5 ? Seriously ...
... no picking up a Shuttle isn't epic Storytelling either ... but at least there are only 2-5 of those in LOR ...
Nukara "missions" are analogous to the various kobali battlezone objectives (found and random). If we wanted to broaden the definition, well we're still at analogous content volumes (its just that Kobali Prime also had discrete story missions in addition to grindable objectives.)
Congrats you just answered your own question
1. Nukura is on par with Kobali, it even has several PVE Queues ... you just chose to ignore the Story in favor of Kobali Prime ...
2. you missed 6-7 Story Episodes in LOR
3. nobody cares about how many Episodes were released AFTER launch (besides 1 vs. 2)
=> LOR > DR (even if you count shoot 5x Waves of Enemy X as "epic Storytelling" & ignore Nukura)
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Why are Story Episodes better, than 20x Shoot 5 Waves of Enemies x5 ? Seriously ...
... no picking up a Shuttle isn't epic Storytelling either ... but at least there are only 2-5 of those in LOR ...
Helix: Shoot X waves
Neutral No more: Shoot X waves
Trade Craft: Shoot 1 big wave
Last Stand: Shoot X waves in 3 systems
The Best Defense: Shoot X waves from a shuttle
A House Pursued: scan and shoot X waves
A House on Fire: shoot X waves
If you have a problem with the patrol format sufficiently to decide that well they don't count then where do these fit in? Incidentally these missions all have as much or less plot than what you get from a DR patrol, only half have analogous amounts of gameplay, and they have absolutely no randomization factors. They're functionally worse and have less to them. So, that's +7 middling-to-sub-par "missions" while ignoring some well designed stuff?
This is why I'm trying to tell you your method of counting is bunk.
And BTW there's only 1 contact check-in "mission" in the whole of DR (Escalation.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Helix: Shoot X waves
Neutral No more: Shoot X waves
Trade Craft: Shoot 1 big wave
Last Stand: Shoot X waves
The Best Defense: Shoot X waves from a shuttle
A House Pursued: scan and shoot X waves
A House on Fire: shoot X waves
1. There is also Ground, different Maps, and more than 10 Lines of dialogue ... in some of those Mission ...
2. Well if you can't tell the difference between Patrols & Story Episodes ... there is a reason why they're called Patrols, and Cryptic removed them from the Story Progression, prior to DR ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
People seem to forget that expansions are built to accommodate leveling from the game's beginning, through the expansion, with all the EXP from the original game's content that people had missed out on, because they were already max level from before the level cap increase, taken into account.
Indeed, my point (stated earlier) is that the only arguable change (assuming 1. Cryptic couldn't design a second game to fill out the +10 levels and 2. that the leveling system as applied to new characters is fine) is that cryptic could have provided an XP or level boost to old max level characters to avoid what I'd like to term as "stalling". But they didn't, so is there really much point in continuing the discussion?
Once the notion of 60-70 starts floating around, sure let's start assessing what DR did and didn't do well. However ATM its a dead horse topic that's not only been thoroughly beaten but its been long decomposed and now fertilizing the tomatos (ie. new characters).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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2. Well if you can't tell the difference between Patrols & Story Episodes ... there is a reason why they're called Patrols, and Cryptic removed them from the Story Progression, before DR ...
Think about what's actually contained in the mission, not how they've been branded. This is how you've ended up counting wasteland and not kobali prime despite the two being entirely eqivalent except in how you find the mission contact.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Think about what's actually contained in the mission, not how they've been branded. This is how you've ended up counting wasteland and not kobali prime despite the two being entirely eqivalent except in how you find the mission contact.
Yeah not really pretty much all BZ contain the same amount of Cutscenes ... sure the Kobali ones are nicer, than the Nukura ones ... as for Nimbus, those are actual Story Episodes, they have Ground & Space, more Dialogue, more Rewards and even more Cutscenes ... Kobali Missions are usually just "go there, shoot something within 2min & watch Cutscene" (no different from any other BZ, that's why they're called BZ)
... and as I said several times before ... even if you count Kobali it's still less content ...
I guess it doesn't really matter if you're just smashing the F Button ... but if you're interested in the Story etc there is a huge difference imho ... we could go on & count the length of dialogues in DR & LOR ... but if you really can't, or want to see the difference it's kind of pointless ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
they have Ground & Space, more Dialogue, more Rewards and even more Cutscenes ...
1. More cutscenes, which consist ENTIRELY of those "intro" shots for each ground combat wave in the arena and the security feeds in installation 18.
Those aren't comparable to what you find on Kobali. Nimbus's shots are cutscenes only in so far as the camera shifts beyond the players' control, providing visual fluff but little substance, but on Kobali the cutscenes are actively involved in character development and story telling (cutscenes in the modern sense of game design.)
2. Ground and space both in a single mission isn't a valid mission criterion (otherwise we're going to have to start pruning through LoR and the KDF tutorials again.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Congrats you picked to worst example, which was supposed to be somewhat sarcastic ...
Its the only example of cutscenes in nimbus (besides the Elachii self-destructing, walking into town, and "Law" shrugging)! You made a statement which is demonstrably false. Congrats!
Kobali Missions are usually just "go there, shoot something within 2min & watch Cutscene" (no different from any other BZ, that's why they're called BZ)
Or mission, which is why I call it content. STO gameplay consists of running through small maps and shooting something until you can proceed to the next objective. Patrols/Kobali doesn't count? Then so must you chuck out this entire game. This is why you should think about your criteria, one set might work in one situation but if you apply them more broadly you can find yourself in trouble.
... and as I said several times before ... even if you count Kobali it's still less content ...
Nimbus 5 missions + 4 repeatable activities + maybe 5 or 6 kill targets.
Kobali 10 missions + at least 4 found objectives + maybe 7 or 8 random events.
But lets assume "its" meant DR.
According to what we can both point out in the math (41+1 for LoR, 40+2 for DR) they have the same number of identifiable mission things. How you like those missions is a separate question. The number of content pieces between expansions is comparable (they don't have to be identical, there just isn't a huge gap between them), but that doesn't mean that you have to appreciate DR as much as LoR. But in criticizing it, it would be helpful if you didn't try to misrepresent how much is there (which isn't the problem) because that very definitely obscures the objective issues the expansion surely contains (and we can try to find through intelligent discourse.)
Patrols aggressively repetive? Good.
Ground and combat too divisively separated? Also good
Patrols=/=content? Bad. They're content, just not the sort you like.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Tacofangs pointed out in tweet that we have gone from asking What's Next after a season launches to demanding to know what the plans are for the NEXT season.
Why are we doing this? A good number of people in the various chats I frequent in-game see the Iconian War season as "the last season" and are adamant that the game is closing down sometime after the season launches.
Most conversations consist of "not buying any T-6 content or keys for Iconian boxes because the game is slated to shut down at the conclusion of this season."
First of all, I need to see some actual proof. Second, why would the game suddenly end after the launch of a season? And third, if you suddenly withhold cashflow to the game it WILL close!
I've worked for companies that have changed owners and had layoffs and are still around churning out product and services. I don't see PW's trouble as a sign, nor do I worry about the 'layoffs.' In fact since the last changing of the guard (new Big Boss) certain bugs have been stomped on, and there has been an increase in communication. Don't believe me? Look at twitter, Dev posts and so forth.
Since I joined this game all the way back at the end of Beta, people have been crying "oh woe the game is on the verge of shutting down." Every time there is a hiccup, every time there is a glitch, and every time there is a news-post about corporate.
So out with it, STO-ers. Why do we as a fanbase have this morbid insistence that the game is constantly on the verge of failure and ruin... why are we all so convinced (since season 4) that the game is one more release away from shutdown?
To sum it up.... People talk about things, they know nothing about. It is called Speculation. Then you get Doom sayers, that think they know everything because they read it somewhere else on the internet.
Tacofangs pointed out in tweet that we have gone from asking What's Next after a season launches to demanding to know what the plans are for the NEXT season.
Why are we doing this?
This entire thread is based on a false premise: "we" are not asking this, *some* people are. So if your question is "why do *some* people ask stupid/irrelevant/unecessary questions on MMO forums"? Um, IDK, but it's been happening since the first MMO and will happen until the last MMO, and posting a thread about it won't change anything.
That said, it's important to remember that one person's stupid/irrelevant/unecessary question is another person's important/valid question. Therefore, before you think about moderating what other people should or should not ask, remember that it goes both ways. This thread is equally stupid/irrelevant/unecessary as it is important/valid, because each person has their own opinion on what those things are, and your opinion is no more right or wrong than anyone else's.
Its the only example of cutscenes in nimbus (besides the Elachii self-destructing)! You made a statement which is demonstrably false. Congrats!
Sigh ...
I'm counting ~10 Cutscenes on Kobali Prime & ~12 on Nimbus ... wasn't really the point ... Cutscenes being the only source of Story-Telling is pretty bad imho, which is basically what BZ's like Dyson & Kobali do ...
Or mission, which is why I call it content. STO gameplay consists of running through small maps and shooting something until you can proceed to the next objective. Patrols/Kobali doesn't count? Then so must you chuck out this entire game. This is why you should think about your criteria.
Only if you're smashing the F Button & ignoring all dialogue etc ... but yes then it's basically "all the same"
Up til the point where I stopped playing it (pre pandas) each WoW expansion had the level cap go up and content to cover not only levelling but at least a zone or two to do quest and story arc stuff in. Not exactly a fair comparison as thats a paid for game with sub model.
LotRO is a closer model to STO having transitioned into a f2p model from sub based. Each expansion for that has also had more than enough content in the form of story and questing in the new zones to cover levelling and then some from the previous cap. Again maybe not a fair comparison as quests outwith the epic storyline are locked behind a paywall, tokens for which can be earned in game by playing without any currency exchange setups.
There is a paywall of sorts in STO with the t6 ships and fleet modules requiring zen so there is a system of money generation going on. However if there's not really anything to do then whats the point in paying money for a new ship that flies and shoots the same way as the last one you flew.
Where the money is going to is not a question we'll get an answer to but the basic voice actors sound like they're a budget option compared to the trek cast who do sound sometimes they're embarrassed by the script in front of them.
Claiming that a developing whole second game was needed is taking things a bit far, at the same time if you look at the new max level being equal to 200 or so then the claim is maybe not that far off.
Tacofangs pointed out in tweet that we have gone from asking What's Next after a season launches to demanding to know what the plans are for the NEXT season.
One has to wonder if it is a changing attitude or merely a breakdown of basic communicative skills..
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I'm counting ~10 Cutscenes on Kobali Prime & ~12 on Nimbus ... wasn't really the point ... Cutscenes being the only source of Story-Telling is pretty bad ...
-Cutscenes
-Contact Dialog
-Gameplay.
Its the same as you have with "missions." Again, if an issue then why STO?
Probably why I was talking about "Story Episodes", not "Content" from the beginning ...
And "Story Episodes" is a bunk classification, there's "story episodes" which are identical to patrols, "story episodes" which are even more aggressively repetive than patrols, and "story episodes" which have much, much, much less of everything than patrols (including point and connection to the overall plot of STO). So you can't use "story missions" as the end all of episodic, plot based, content. If you do, you find yourself with an arbitrarily condensed list of content, a good chunk of which doesn't even meet your own functional criteria (they're just there in the same mission log.) You haven't gotten anywhere, except a negative opinion of convenience (not the one it seems is justified by your complaints, and could lead to a more constructive discussion.)
Not liking DR content (because of whats contained in that content) is a valid point (and one you can extend throughout episodic missions regardless of whether or not they fall in the mission select screen). There not being any missions (or about as many as LoR) isn't.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
And "Story Episodes" is a bunk classification, there's "story episodes" which are identical to patrols, "story episodes" which are even more aggressively repetive than patrols, and "story episodes" which have much, much, much less of everything than patrols (including point and connection to the overall plot of STO). ....
Better tell that to Cryptic then ... they came up with those "silly" classifications like BZ, Patrol, FE etc ... apperantly for no reason at all ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
This entire thread is based on a false premise: "we" are not asking this, *some* people are. So if your question is "why do *some* people ask stupid/irrelevant/unecessary questions on MMO forums"? Um, IDK, but it's been happening since the first MMO and will happen until the last MMO, and posting a thread about it won't change anything.
That said, it's important to remember that one person's stupid/irrelevant/unecessary question is another person's important/valid question. Therefore, before you think about moderating what other people should or should not ask, remember that it goes both ways. This thread is equally stupid/irrelevant/unecessary as it is important/valid, because each person has their own opinion on what those things are, and your opinion is no more right or wrong than anyone else's.
was there a point in all that related directly to the thread?
you make a small mention of a false premise which was on point and then go completely off the point to tell another person how they should run their own business which you have no business doing as there is a forum rulebook in place which everyone needs to follow. this makes your further opinion "irrelevant/unecessary".
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Comments
And again ... S10 is going to be released on Tuesday ... aka the current Tribble Built ... and there is probably a reason, for recycling old Delta Patrols for Iconian Marks ...
Then you got the Q (we know they are not going to do anything except mess with us a little), who we have learned there as a few races out there about as strong as they are themselves. One of which Kirk has meet when he won in a life or dead fight with a Gorn (i can't remember their name).
So there is much more stuff that PWE-Crypic can throw at us. Some people say the borg will come back to invade, but after seeing all the story in Delta Quadrant, I don't think so. Not with the borg as divided as it is, and all the anti-borg weapons we got, heck we may even have a anti-nanobot weapon that will stop assimilation. Right now the borg is like 20% of it's strength it had back in seasons 1-4, and dropping, heck even the Voth are taking a anti-borg approach (though they don't care what side the borg are on). Only way the Borg will live though all this is if they get some Iconian tech lol.
Another thing I think may happen is the Dominion (the real Dominion, not the True-Way's Dominion) will make a come back. Like they found some Iconian or even more advanced tech, from a older race. Then learned how to use it (while keeping the Jem'Hader in line this time lol, think they learned their lesson from the last time they discovered a Iconian gateway).
Romulan : 86 Story Episodes
Feds : 83 Story Episodes
... not counting Tutorials, Patrols, BZ Cutscenes ... or Missions like "go to the Dyson Sphere" ... because well they're not Story Episodes ...
Counting eh?
LoR
Tutorials: 2
Allies: 5
Shadows: 6
Vengeance: 6
Wasteland: 5
KDF: 11 (being very generous as to what counts as a mission)
Total: 35 (I assume you reached 41 by counting the non-mission contact check-ins listed with the series. I may have dropped one or two "missions" by not counting what were primarily contact check-ins but its better in this case to use the more conservative estimate.)
Delta Rising:
Main Story: 10 (+2 added prior to S10, 3 with uneasy allies but its easier to interpret that as a s10 pre-release)
Kobali Prime: 10
Patrols: 20
Total: 40 (+2)
The only way your math works out (to be DR<<<LoR) is arbitrarily deciding that story as presented through ground or space sections only isn't really "a mission." For example you've counted KDF and LoR "missions" which are woeful even on the scale of "arbitrary space combat to pad out the playtime" but somehow better written/presented/structured patrols and ground missions don't count? Or similarly that adventure zone missions listed in an episode series are fundamentally more "content" than adventure zone missions listed at a terminal.
Your sir are talking out of your TRIBBLE. It might be self-satisfying to do so but its not a spectacle the rest of the world wants to see. Try to be more objective, use fewer self-satisfying criteria (which just shows you're tyring to fit facts to suit an opinion) and you might just get a better grip on things. :P
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
LOR :
Tutorials: 2
From the Ashes : 7 (yep you just ignored an entire Arc)
Allies: 5
Shadows: 6
Vengeance: 7
Wasteland: 5
+ 11 KDF
= 43
DR :
Yes I'm only counting 8-9 Story Episodes ... no "Shoot 5x" - Patrols ... no BZ Cutscenes etc ... no Episodes after Launch etc ... simply because we had those in LOR as well ...
=>
- "new" Nukura Reputation including new "Missions"
- several FE's introducing the Dyson Zone before S8
etc etc
Might have been nice if the xp buff in the command tree wasn't stuck in the top end for reasons unknown or that they'd allowed a one time respec when that tree came out as it's maybe the more desirable tree to work on first.
AS was just pointed out DR had 20 patrols to get done and thanks to the setup of the expansion those were the core of levelling. Kobali ground stuff was ground stuff so to spend time there you have to actually enjoy the way ground combat works. Again there were large voids where there was no progress.
Did they ever give the xp there a boost or is it still single digits per kill? If the xp wasnt tweaked then the only option is to grind those very repetitive patrols.
Other dodgy aspect to DR was the gear that got increased to 14, makes sense, and yet the majority of rewards were still the same as level 50 gear. No nudge upwards at all. Probably because of the upgrade system which is another grindy setup.
One of the things that people like about levelling is that you get new and better gear, new and better abilities yet a lot of that is absent. Not much in the spec trees beyond passive buffs here or there and those take a long time to get unless you're able and willing to sink countless hours into mindless repetition.
+1 FE introducting the Dyson sphere before S8 (just Spheres of Influence)
-Nukara "missions" are analogous to the various kobali battlezone objectives (found and random). If we wanted to broaden the definition, well we're still at analogous content volumes (its just that Kobali Prime also had discrete story missions in addition to grindable objectives.)
-And yah so I missed that arc but what we're left with there is +6
I say 6 and not 7 because the last, I point out again, is just a contact check in with in this case a single space combat section (making it a marginal mission at the very, very best). Why is that "content" but not a patrol? Plot, structure, gameplay what on earth are you using for objective criteria? Well quite frankly you aren't, which is how you can count 7 from vengence. If picking a shuttle up from new romulus command is "content" over the whole of Kobali prime, you sir have no business here.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Yes but if you lowered the xp requirements (or provided an extra boost to existing characters so they'd be approaching DR at the 53-55 level which I've found is where new characters tend to line up) you would have a workable expansion (ie. something at a scale consistent with pervious releases.) If you added enough content to fill the 50-60 progression as designed, you're looking at the development of a second STO.
Therefore, you can't assume the situation that level from 50-60 is fine, its just hurting for more missions. Rather the more reasonable explanation is that leveing from 50 at the time of DR had issues while content was more or less fine.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
So it comes down to :
Why are Story Episodes better, than 20x Shoot 5 Waves of Enemies x5 ? Seriously ...
... no picking up a Shuttle isn't epic Storytelling either ... but at least there are only 2-5 of those in LOR ...
Congrats you just answered your own question
1. Nukura is on par with Kobali, it even has several PVE Queues ... you just chose to ignore the Story in favor of Kobali Prime ...
2. you missed 6-7 Story Episodes in LOR
3. nobody cares about how many Episodes were released AFTER launch (besides 1 vs. 2)
=> LOR > DR (even if you count shoot 5x Waves of Enemy X as "epic Storytelling" & ignore Nukura)
Helix: Shoot X waves
Neutral No more: Shoot X waves
Trade Craft: Shoot 1 big wave
Last Stand: Shoot X waves in 3 systems
The Best Defense: Shoot X waves from a shuttle
A House Pursued: scan and shoot X waves
A House on Fire: shoot X waves
If you have a problem with the patrol format sufficiently to decide that well they don't count then where do these fit in? Incidentally these missions all have as much or less plot than what you get from a DR patrol, only half have analogous amounts of gameplay, and they have absolutely no randomization factors. They're functionally worse and have less to them. So, that's +7 middling-to-sub-par "missions" while ignoring some well designed stuff?
This is why I'm trying to tell you your method of counting is bunk.
And BTW there's only 1 contact check-in "mission" in the whole of DR (Escalation.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
1. There is also Ground, different Maps, and more than 10 Lines of dialogue ... in some of those Mission ...
2. Well if you can't tell the difference between Patrols & Story Episodes ... there is a reason why they're called Patrols, and Cryptic removed them from the Story Progression, prior to DR ...
Indeed, my point (stated earlier) is that the only arguable change (assuming 1. Cryptic couldn't design a second game to fill out the +10 levels and 2. that the leveling system as applied to new characters is fine) is that cryptic could have provided an XP or level boost to old max level characters to avoid what I'd like to term as "stalling". But they didn't, so is there really much point in continuing the discussion?
Once the notion of 60-70 starts floating around, sure let's start assessing what DR did and didn't do well. However ATM its a dead horse topic that's not only been thoroughly beaten but its been long decomposed and now fertilizing the tomatos (ie. new characters).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Think about what's actually contained in the mission, not how they've been branded. This is how you've ended up counting wasteland and not kobali prime despite the two being entirely eqivalent except in how you find the mission contact.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Yeah not really pretty much all BZ contain the same amount of Cutscenes ... sure the Kobali ones are nicer, than the Nukura ones ... as for Nimbus, those are actual Story Episodes, they have Ground & Space, more Dialogue, more Rewards and even more Cutscenes ... Kobali Missions are usually just "go there, shoot something within 2min & watch Cutscene" (no different from any other BZ, that's why they're called BZ)
... and as I said several times before ... even if you count Kobali it's still less content ...
I guess it doesn't really matter if you're just smashing the F Button ... but if you're interested in the Story etc there is a huge difference imho ... we could go on & count the length of dialogues in DR & LOR ... but if you really can't, or want to see the difference it's kind of pointless ...
1. More cutscenes, which consist ENTIRELY of those "intro" shots for each ground combat wave in the arena and the security feeds in installation 18.
Those aren't comparable to what you find on Kobali. Nimbus's shots are cutscenes only in so far as the camera shifts beyond the players' control, providing visual fluff but little substance, but on Kobali the cutscenes are actively involved in character development and story telling (cutscenes in the modern sense of game design.)
2. Ground and space both in a single mission isn't a valid mission criterion (otherwise we're going to have to start pruning through LoR and the KDF tutorials again.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Congrats you picked to worst example, which was supposed to be somewhat sarcastic ... Storytelling isn't just about 1min Cutscenes ...
Its the only example of cutscenes in nimbus (besides the Elachii self-destructing, walking into town, and "Law" shrugging)! You made a statement which is demonstrably false. Congrats!
Also...
Or mission, which is why I call it content. STO gameplay consists of running through small maps and shooting something until you can proceed to the next objective. Patrols/Kobali doesn't count? Then so must you chuck out this entire game. This is why you should think about your criteria, one set might work in one situation but if you apply them more broadly you can find yourself in trouble.
Nimbus 5 missions + 4 repeatable activities + maybe 5 or 6 kill targets.
Kobali 10 missions + at least 4 found objectives + maybe 7 or 8 random events.
But lets assume "its" meant DR.
According to what we can both point out in the math (41+1 for LoR, 40+2 for DR) they have the same number of identifiable mission things. How you like those missions is a separate question. The number of content pieces between expansions is comparable (they don't have to be identical, there just isn't a huge gap between them), but that doesn't mean that you have to appreciate DR as much as LoR. But in criticizing it, it would be helpful if you didn't try to misrepresent how much is there (which isn't the problem) because that very definitely obscures the objective issues the expansion surely contains (and we can try to find through intelligent discourse.)
Patrols aggressively repetive? Good.
Ground and combat too divisively separated? Also good
Patrols=/=content? Bad. They're content, just not the sort you like.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
To sum it up.... People talk about things, they know nothing about. It is called Speculation. Then you get Doom sayers, that think they know everything because they read it somewhere else on the internet.
Games got 5 years at least left in it, nuff said.
This entire thread is based on a false premise: "we" are not asking this, *some* people are. So if your question is "why do *some* people ask stupid/irrelevant/unecessary questions on MMO forums"? Um, IDK, but it's been happening since the first MMO and will happen until the last MMO, and posting a thread about it won't change anything.
That said, it's important to remember that one person's stupid/irrelevant/unecessary question is another person's important/valid question. Therefore, before you think about moderating what other people should or should not ask, remember that it goes both ways. This thread is equally stupid/irrelevant/unecessary as it is important/valid, because each person has their own opinion on what those things are, and your opinion is no more right or wrong than anyone else's.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Sigh ...
I'm counting ~10 Cutscenes on Kobali Prime & ~12 on Nimbus ... wasn't really the point ... Cutscenes being the only source of Story-Telling is pretty bad imho, which is basically what BZ's like Dyson & Kobali do ...
Only if you're smashing the F Button & ignoring all dialogue etc ... but yes then it's basically "all the same"
Just because you want to put Nimbus & Kobali Prime is the same basket ... doesn't mean I have to ... I'm still talking about DR & LOR in general ...
Probably why I was talking about "Story Episodes", not "Content" from the beginning ...
LotRO is a closer model to STO having transitioned into a f2p model from sub based. Each expansion for that has also had more than enough content in the form of story and questing in the new zones to cover levelling and then some from the previous cap. Again maybe not a fair comparison as quests outwith the epic storyline are locked behind a paywall, tokens for which can be earned in game by playing without any currency exchange setups.
There is a paywall of sorts in STO with the t6 ships and fleet modules requiring zen so there is a system of money generation going on. However if there's not really anything to do then whats the point in paying money for a new ship that flies and shoots the same way as the last one you flew.
Where the money is going to is not a question we'll get an answer to but the basic voice actors sound like they're a budget option compared to the trek cast who do sound sometimes they're embarrassed by the script in front of them.
Claiming that a developing whole second game was needed is taking things a bit far, at the same time if you look at the new max level being equal to 200 or so then the claim is maybe not that far off.
One has to wonder if it is a changing attitude or merely a breakdown of basic communicative skills..
-Cutscenes
-Contact Dialog
-Gameplay.
Its the same as you have with "missions." Again, if an issue then why STO?
And "Story Episodes" is a bunk classification, there's "story episodes" which are identical to patrols, "story episodes" which are even more aggressively repetive than patrols, and "story episodes" which have much, much, much less of everything than patrols (including point and connection to the overall plot of STO). So you can't use "story missions" as the end all of episodic, plot based, content. If you do, you find yourself with an arbitrarily condensed list of content, a good chunk of which doesn't even meet your own functional criteria (they're just there in the same mission log.) You haven't gotten anywhere, except a negative opinion of convenience (not the one it seems is justified by your complaints, and could lead to a more constructive discussion.)
Not liking DR content (because of whats contained in that content) is a valid point (and one you can extend throughout episodic missions regardless of whether or not they fall in the mission select screen). There not being any missions (or about as many as LoR) isn't.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Better tell that to Cryptic then ... they came up with those "silly" classifications like BZ, Patrol, FE etc ... apperantly for no reason at all ...
was there a point in all that related directly to the thread?
you make a small mention of a false premise which was on point and then go completely off the point to tell another person how they should run their own business which you have no business doing as there is a forum rulebook in place which everyone needs to follow. this makes your further opinion "irrelevant/unecessary".
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.