TOS aired at a time when people's attitudes toward those things were still changing in the wake of the 60's. There was still segregation going on.
TOS aired from 1966 to 1969. My wife was born in 1973. Her skin is the color of semisweet chocolate, but her birth certificate read "white" until she paid to have it corrected because the hospital she was born at, in Atlanta, GA, was historically white, and the nurse just assumed any baby born there would be Caucasian.
It was apparently less than a year ago that my own eldest brother told my niece that her (black) boyfriend had to be kept working, "because otherwise those boys get into trouble." (Said niece didn't want to say anything until earlier today.) Things have gotten better, but they're not behind us yet.
I'm going to have to include all of TOS on the offensive list because Walter Koenig is NOT Russian and his accent is obviously an over exaggerated parody of real Russian speech in English. This is offensive to the Russian Race and to all English Language Learners.
Wait, what about in Season 1, before Koenig joined the cast?
Plus I always just assumed that, given some 300 years of language drift, Russian might actually just sound like that in the future. Our accents probably don't really match up to the accents spoken in the 1700s.
Is it just me or is "being offended' just an excuse to be intolerant of viewpoints that are simply more common?
It's not just you. These days "being offended" has become a way of life for some.
I had a youth group minister who told us that movies that had violent/sexual content should'nt be allowed because it corrupts people. I argued that hiding from the evils of life doesnt make you a pure/clean person, just sheltered and untested. The person that is exposed/tested to the world and doesn't waiver is the stronger/pure/clean individual. Of course, I got kickd out.
I think the whole "offended" movement is a way to control speech and thought, akin to heresy crimes/punishment in the days of olde with less use of torture devises.
Is it just me or is "being offended' just an excuse to be intolerant of viewpoints that are simply more common?
I see it more as an excuse to violate the freedom of speech. In many cases it's little more than "I don't like that therefore you shouldn't do it." Thus trivializing the concept.
I'd just like to point out that I don't find any of the 'anti-religion' episodes offensive in any way. Every comment Picard made in 'Who watches the Watchers' were characteristics of terran religion at the Mintaakans' stage of evolution. Religion did contribute to fear and intolerance and stagnation in the dark ages - it was one of the main factors. Picard's comment is completely fair - at the Mintakkans' stage of society, a religion based around him would likely have led to their own dark age.
And I'm saying this as a Christian.
Besides, I think what offended him more wasn't the idea of a Mintaakan religion, but one with him as its deity - he refused to be responsible for starting a religion based on a misunderstanding.
As for what episodes I find offensive?
There is no particular episode, but that scene where Kirk tries to pass Spock off as Chinese in 'Guardian of Forever'. I let him off for the fact that he was put on the spot by a cop, and because Spock's reaction was hilarious, but still...
I facepalmed every time religion, faith, spirituality, and new age silliness were given any modicum of respect. But I wasn't offended. Why? Because as an adult, I know that my opinion is just that, an opinion.
Be offended when someone personally insults you. Be offended when someone deliberately endangers you or your loved ones. Be offended when someone is nasty without cause.
But to be offended because someone expressed an opinion that differs from yours. Please, for the sake of civil society, grow up.
I think you can be offended without taking it to an extreme. I did find the overreach of "Who Watches the Watchers" offensive. But at the same time, you don't see me engaging in some sort of pointless campaign to get it taken off the air, or even harassing others who don't share the same opinion to try to browbeat them until they either stop talking or cave to my opinion. I believe I have the right to speak my piece and explain what I think was wrong with it. I can put the idea out there. We can have a conversation about it. But civility means accepting that not everyone will be convinced and knowing when to let it go and not insulting people because they disagree.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
And "Tattoo". Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give a character who was already a racist stereotype an episode wherein he found that his ancestors were half-animal savages before magic space white men taught them how to be human?
Yeah. I'm a straight white upper-middle-class male whose experience and knowledge comes almost entirely from books, and even I find that offensive.
I will say this for Code of Honor. It showed why I think Tasha was a better security officer than Worf at the start. She actually intercepted the container and checked it was safe before handing it to Picard, whereas Worf just lets the Captain take it. I just wished we got to see more of her. So...... yeah, that's one good thing about that episode. If that helps anyone.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
I'd say Patterns of Force from TOS, simply down to the fact It was made just 21-22 years after the end of WW2 with the crimes of TRIBBLE Germany still fresh in people's minds at the time.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The only reason you think of Chakotay as a "racist stereotype" is because that's how you perceive the character. One of the good things about Star Trek is that it doesn't matter what race/color/species a character is.
As for the idea of "magic white space men", it's no more or no less as ridiculous an idea as evolution.
...I can't tell if you're trolling or serious.
A Mayan from South America who believes in spirit animals, grew up in a tepee, uses hallucinogenic stuff for rituals, gives dream catchers as gifts to adults, has a Maori tattoo from New Zealand, and claims that all of the above is from his culture, is not a real Native American. For example, the dream catcher that he gives Seven in that one episode? Thats an artifact from the Ojibwa (also transliterated as Ojibwe or Chippewa) nation, used over childrens cribs. Mayans are from Central America, near the Yucatan Peninsula (theres a fairly large population in Guatemala that still uses native languages a lot and is generally abused by the local Spanish-speaking authorities. In fact, the disappearance of the Mayans was mostly cooked up by early Spanish-American thinkers trying to justify and/or cover up the massive abuses committed by their governments. IRL, the only collapse was of the classical, city-based Mayan nobles, while the common people survived without too much fuss). That tattoo Chakotay wears is most similar to Maori designs from Polynesian cultures in New Zealand, half a ****ing world away from Mexico. And thats BEFORE he finds out that his ancestors were half-animal savages until magic space white people taught them how to be human. Frankly, about the only offensive things he DIDNT do were say How, great sachem! or plenty wampum, open a casino, and/or smoke a peace pipe. And when you compare that to Tattoo...yeah. Offensive either way.
And seriously, you're going to call a tested, refined theory with literally centuries of evidence behind it as ridiculous as magic space white men?????
If you want to actually learn about Native Americans, I recommend the book 500 Nations and anything by Hank Adams.
I also think Chakotay is done very disrespectfully towards Native American culture.
I actually think the fix would have been very simple though...expressly have him not follow the ways of any current culture but have him follow a New Age religion that came into being in the 22nd century--something new kind of like some of the "new paganism" type movements or Wicca. It still might not be as good as doing proper cultural research for Native American culture but stating onscreen that he follows a new religion would remove the need to worry about authenticity (and IMO new religions coming into being would be more realistic than Roddenberry's enforced atheism).
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I also think Chakotay is done very disrespectfully towards Native American culture.
I actually think the fix would have been very simple though...expressly have him not follow the ways of any current culture but have him follow a New Age religion that came into being in the 22nd century--something new kind of like some of the "new paganism" type movements or Wicca. It still might not be as good as doing proper cultural research for Native American culture but stating onscreen that he follows a new religion would remove the need to worry about authenticity (and IMO new religions coming into being would be more realistic than Roddenberry's enforced atheism).
The Native American angle might not have been necessary at all since New Age mysticism would allow a lot of esoteric stuff from a lot of different sources or entirely new ones. But even being of Native American background, as was implied to be most common to Dorvan (which I think was Chakotay's homeworld?) does not mean having to follow ancestral religion and culture. Some place great weight on that. Others do not. As an example, IRL I am aware, for example, of a Creek tribe that tends strongly towards the Southern Baptist church. And of course any individual can and will do as they wish. (Said tribe has also chosen not to seek federal recognition, only recognition by the state of Alabama, again their choice.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I'd say Patterns of Force from TOS, simply down to the fact It was made just 21-22 years after the end of WW2 with the crimes of TRIBBLE Germany still fresh in people's minds at the time.
As I pointed out elsewhere, Hogan's Heroes both predates and outlasted TOS (65-71 comapred to TOS' 66-69). It wasn't without controversy, but it was hugely popular and remains fondly remembered to this day.
If you want to actually learn about Native Americans, I recommend the book 500 Nations and anything by Hank Adams.
Hmm, I'll actually look into that. Also I think at least one episode alluded to the idea that Chakotay he was a Hopi. "Chakotay" certainly doesn't sound like any Mayan I've ever heard, but it does sound vaguely Hopi - some actual Hopi names include Ahote, Chochokpi, Qaletaqa, Tohopka, so it at least "feels" right, though it would have looked more write if it had been spelled Chakote.
I can't think of a single offensive Trek episode. Except perhaps the Hansens in Voyager. They knew about the Borg even before Picard first encountered them? And knew of the Queen? But still not offensive. The new JJ movies however... now that's what I call offensive.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I can't think of a single offensive Trek episode. Except perhaps the Hansens in Voyager. They knew about the Borg even before Picard first encountered them? And knew of the Queen? But still not offensive. The new JJ movies however... now that's what I call offensive.
First Contact created an altered timeline. Originally, Picard was the first to encounter the Borg, and the Hansen's never went after the Borg (so no Seven). But because the Borg went back in time and crashed in the Artic, there was now records in Starfleet's archives. Hansen discovered these random rumours and decided to check them out, before Picard encountered the Borg first.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
And "Tattoo". Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give a character who was already a racist stereotype an episode wherein he found that his ancestors were half-animal savages before magic space white men taught them how to be human?
Yeah. I'm a straight white upper-middle-class male whose experience and knowledge comes almost entirely from books, and even I find that offensive.
How was Code if Honor offensive or nasty? It was an episode about Federation officers trying to be respectful to another culture. It also featured gender equality as a theme. If you take issue with a comically bad African tribal culture, then I can't see how you are a fan of Stargate. Every other episode featured a comically bad stereotypical Earth culture. From Dark Age Christians to faux Egyptians they did a watered down version of them all.
And what about that early Mongol episode? Where Sam is bought and sold. But gender equality being the theme, she wins the day on that culture's terms. While the portrayal of Mongolian culture was silly, it's set dressing for a forty minute show.
Chakotay was a terrible character start to finish. Clearly he was written by a bunch of white people with just book knowledge. The fact that they were white was likely just insensitive casing. It's no different than the Native American tribe in Stargate. Oh please animal spirits, white people in makeup shapeshifting into animals, give us guidance and a rare metal. And stereotypically in both Trek and SG1, the white man wants to take something from the Natives.
If I was religious, I'd be offended that the Bajoran religion was not a faith-based system. They had direct communication from the Prophets throughout their history, they had the orbs, and eventually proved their Prophets existed. It's a mockery of faith because they in fact had actual proof of the Prophets existing. Every time Kira talked about faith, she was talking about confidence in something she already knew existed... facepalm every time.
Say what you will about Chakotay, at least he was an actual man of faith.
I don't see how any human being can be that racist. That's...have you even seen "Code of Honor"? How were you not shocked and repulsed by the Darkest Africa stereotype?
Imagine making a story wherein a bunch of 19th-century white explorers are in Africa. A member of a black African tribe sees a white woman member of the expedition and instantly lusts after her, and so kidnaps her and takes her back to his tribe to be his wife. The members of the black tribe are shown to have strange concepts of morality as compared to the white explorers, are quick to violence, and it is implicit that they are are primitive or barbaric in comparison to the white explorers.
Now move the setting to space and you have "Code of Honor." It is by far not the most racist thing ever made, and on re-watching it one can see that it isn't nearly as bad as you tend to remember it being. The point is, though, that the Ligonians in just about every way act like the typical 1930s-40s-era stereotypes about Darkest Africa's jungle tribes, as well as the stereotype that black men lust after white women.
It could have been easily avoided by showing the Ligonians as being racially diverse, or by even making the Lignonians not human in appearance (the original pitch called for reptilian samurai, though that might have been beyond Season 1 TNG's budget) but that wasn't the case - every Ligonian is played by a black actor.
I found the series finale of Enterprise to be offensive to all fans, cast, and crew of that particular series ... it felt more like a big middle finger than a finale.
I found the series finale of Enterprise to be offensive to all fans, cast, and crew of that particular series ... it felt more like a big middle finger than a finale.
Yeah...I love Enterprise and even I won't try to defend that. The last episodes of Enterprise were the Terra Prime arc and the Mirror Universe arc. "These are the Voyages" exists at all only so that it can be retconned away by the Enterprise novels.
Again, none of that should really matter. Chakotay is Chakotay, not the "pseudo native american who is a mish mosh of cultures stereotype guy". His race/species etc. aren't important.
...except that he claims to be a Native American, which is offensive to real Native Americans because he's a racist caricature/mash-up of about 18 Native cultures and a Polynesian society from halfway across the world.
There's a difference between having a certain identity and being a racist caricature.
When you can conclusively prove or disprove either, I'll support it.
Magic space white men are untestable, and therefore an inherently invalid hypothesis. Evolution, as a scientific theory, cannot be proven universally and irrefutably true as "1+1=2" can be, but the vast load of evidence supports it, and it it accepted as effectively true because it's the best explanation we have, it covers everything, and it's hypothetically disprovable.
Please stop insulting my intelligence by assuming that I know nothing of science.
Comments
It was apparently less than a year ago that my own eldest brother told my niece that her (black) boyfriend had to be kept working, "because otherwise those boys get into trouble." (Said niece didn't want to say anything until earlier today.) Things have gotten better, but they're not behind us yet.
Wait, what about in Season 1, before Koenig joined the cast?
Plus I always just assumed that, given some 300 years of language drift, Russian might actually just sound like that in the future. Our accents probably don't really match up to the accents spoken in the 1700s.
http://oi13.tinypic.com/543v9j9.gif
It's not just you. These days "being offended" has become a way of life for some.
I had a youth group minister who told us that movies that had violent/sexual content should'nt be allowed because it corrupts people. I argued that hiding from the evils of life doesnt make you a pure/clean person, just sheltered and untested. The person that is exposed/tested to the world and doesn't waiver is the stronger/pure/clean individual. Of course, I got kickd out.
I think the whole "offended" movement is a way to control speech and thought, akin to heresy crimes/punishment in the days of olde with less use of torture devises.
My character Tsin'xing
And I'm saying this as a Christian.
Besides, I think what offended him more wasn't the idea of a Mintaakan religion, but one with him as its deity - he refused to be responsible for starting a religion based on a misunderstanding.
As for what episodes I find offensive?
There is no particular episode, but that scene where Kirk tries to pass Spock off as Chinese in 'Guardian of Forever'. I let him off for the fact that he was put on the spot by a cop, and because Spock's reaction was hilarious, but still...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Be offended when someone personally insults you. Be offended when someone deliberately endangers you or your loved ones. Be offended when someone is nasty without cause.
But to be offended because someone expressed an opinion that differs from yours. Please, for the sake of civil society, grow up.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Code. Of. Honor.
And "Tattoo". Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give a character who was already a racist stereotype an episode wherein he found that his ancestors were half-animal savages before magic space white men taught them how to be human?
Yeah. I'm a straight white upper-middle-class male whose experience and knowledge comes almost entirely from books, and even I find that offensive.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
...I can't tell if you're trolling or serious.
A Mayan from South America who believes in spirit animals, grew up in a tepee, uses hallucinogenic stuff for rituals, gives dream catchers as gifts to adults, has a Maori tattoo from New Zealand, and claims that all of the above is from his culture, is not a real Native American. For example, the dream catcher that he gives Seven in that one episode? Thats an artifact from the Ojibwa (also transliterated as Ojibwe or Chippewa) nation, used over childrens cribs. Mayans are from Central America, near the Yucatan Peninsula (theres a fairly large population in Guatemala that still uses native languages a lot and is generally abused by the local Spanish-speaking authorities. In fact, the disappearance of the Mayans was mostly cooked up by early Spanish-American thinkers trying to justify and/or cover up the massive abuses committed by their governments. IRL, the only collapse was of the classical, city-based Mayan nobles, while the common people survived without too much fuss). That tattoo Chakotay wears is most similar to Maori designs from Polynesian cultures in New Zealand, half a ****ing world away from Mexico. And thats BEFORE he finds out that his ancestors were half-animal savages until magic space white people taught them how to be human. Frankly, about the only offensive things he DIDNT do were say How, great sachem! or plenty wampum, open a casino, and/or smoke a peace pipe. And when you compare that to Tattoo...yeah. Offensive either way.
And seriously, you're going to call a tested, refined theory with literally centuries of evidence behind it as ridiculous as magic space white men?????
If you want to actually learn about Native Americans, I recommend the book 500 Nations and anything by Hank Adams.
I actually think the fix would have been very simple though...expressly have him not follow the ways of any current culture but have him follow a New Age religion that came into being in the 22nd century--something new kind of like some of the "new paganism" type movements or Wicca. It still might not be as good as doing proper cultural research for Native American culture but stating onscreen that he follows a new religion would remove the need to worry about authenticity (and IMO new religions coming into being would be more realistic than Roddenberry's enforced atheism).
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
That...that's actually brilliant. Really brilliant.
It could be used to poke holes in New Age misuse of Native American culture and cultural appropriation.
Man, if only they had gone that way...that would've been a damn good show.
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As I pointed out elsewhere, Hogan's Heroes both predates and outlasted TOS (65-71 comapred to TOS' 66-69). It wasn't without controversy, but it was hugely popular and remains fondly remembered to this day.
Hmm, I'll actually look into that. Also I think at least one episode alluded to the idea that Chakotay he was a Hopi. "Chakotay" certainly doesn't sound like any Mayan I've ever heard, but it does sound vaguely Hopi - some actual Hopi names include Ahote, Chochokpi, Qaletaqa, Tohopka, so it at least "feels" right, though it would have looked more write if it had been spelled Chakote.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
First Contact created an altered timeline. Originally, Picard was the first to encounter the Borg, and the Hansen's never went after the Borg (so no Seven). But because the Borg went back in time and crashed in the Artic, there was now records in Starfleet's archives. Hansen discovered these random rumours and decided to check them out, before Picard encountered the Borg first.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
How was Code if Honor offensive or nasty? It was an episode about Federation officers trying to be respectful to another culture. It also featured gender equality as a theme. If you take issue with a comically bad African tribal culture, then I can't see how you are a fan of Stargate. Every other episode featured a comically bad stereotypical Earth culture. From Dark Age Christians to faux Egyptians they did a watered down version of them all.
And what about that early Mongol episode? Where Sam is bought and sold. But gender equality being the theme, she wins the day on that culture's terms. While the portrayal of Mongolian culture was silly, it's set dressing for a forty minute show.
Chakotay was a terrible character start to finish. Clearly he was written by a bunch of white people with just book knowledge. The fact that they were white was likely just insensitive casing. It's no different than the Native American tribe in Stargate. Oh please animal spirits, white people in makeup shapeshifting into animals, give us guidance and a rare metal. And stereotypically in both Trek and SG1, the white man wants to take something from the Natives.
If I was religious, I'd be offended that the Bajoran religion was not a faith-based system. They had direct communication from the Prophets throughout their history, they had the orbs, and eventually proved their Prophets existed. It's a mockery of faith because they in fact had actual proof of the Prophets existing. Every time Kira talked about faith, she was talking about confidence in something she already knew existed... facepalm every time.
Say what you will about Chakotay, at least he was an actual man of faith.
I don't see how any human being can be that racist. That's...have you even seen "Code of Honor"? How were you not shocked and repulsed by the Darkest Africa stereotype?
I can't...I just can't.
Imagine making a story wherein a bunch of 19th-century white explorers are in Africa. A member of a black African tribe sees a white woman member of the expedition and instantly lusts after her, and so kidnaps her and takes her back to his tribe to be his wife. The members of the black tribe are shown to have strange concepts of morality as compared to the white explorers, are quick to violence, and it is implicit that they are are primitive or barbaric in comparison to the white explorers.
Now move the setting to space and you have "Code of Honor." It is by far not the most racist thing ever made, and on re-watching it one can see that it isn't nearly as bad as you tend to remember it being. The point is, though, that the Ligonians in just about every way act like the typical 1930s-40s-era stereotypes about Darkest Africa's jungle tribes, as well as the stereotype that black men lust after white women.
It could have been easily avoided by showing the Ligonians as being racially diverse, or by even making the Lignonians not human in appearance (the original pitch called for reptilian samurai, though that might have been beyond Season 1 TNG's budget) but that wasn't the case - every Ligonian is played by a black actor.
Yeah...I love Enterprise and even I won't try to defend that. The last episodes of Enterprise were the Terra Prime arc and the Mirror Universe arc. "These are the Voyages" exists at all only so that it can be retconned away by the Enterprise novels.
There's a difference between having a certain identity and being a racist caricature.
Magic space white men are untestable, and therefore an inherently invalid hypothesis. Evolution, as a scientific theory, cannot be proven universally and irrefutably true as "1+1=2" can be, but the vast load of evidence supports it, and it it accepted as effectively true because it's the best explanation we have, it covers everything, and it's hypothetically disprovable.
Please stop insulting my intelligence by assuming that I know nothing of science.