To me there's a difference between showing bad behavior that is intended to be bad behavior and making it look like that behavior is the norm. Again I am not going to go down the list of every single one since I didn't compile it originally and haven't even seen them all.
But just to use one small example of one that I WAS offended by, to me there is a difference between Gul Dukat spouting off bigoted things about the Bajoran race and religion, and hearing Picard saying similarly offensive things. Dukat is a villain; he's not to be taken seriously. Picard, however, has been explicitly set up by the writers as the absolute pinnacle of human evolution and thought. His words have a different weight and are intended to be taken as the moral right.
A lot of grimdark shows like Walking Dead, though, seem to make a trope out of populating the whole cast full of horrible people. It unfortunately just goes with the territory. I solve that problem by just not watching. I saw nuBsG. I do not need to see every single other show that has or is doing the exact same thing in different settings. Once I could do but once is enough for me.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
This thread has some interesting conversation going on, but some of it is trending toward flaming and trolling. Please keep your posts free of forum rule violations.
As to the topic at hand, I think it's possible for a good story to be intentionally offensive as a way of highlighting an injustice. It's also possible for individual characters to be offensive in large or small ways that establish their personality and background and provide fodder for plots and subplots. The writers are not necessarily endorsing those viewpoints. Rather they're using them as hooks to try to tell an interesting story.
Take O'Brien's dislike for Cardassians as an example of "racism". His dislike is rooted in his experiences in a war where the conduct of the opposing Cardassian military was notably bad and brutal by any modern standard. The character was largely unapologetic in his visceral attitudes toward the 'Cardies'. You might not condone his "racist" attitude, but it was certainly understandable and not entirely unwarranted. Individual Cardassians proved to be exceptions to the rule and even some of the 'bad' Cardassians had their moments of having good intentions. Even Dukat.
The flip side of that is the Cardassian attitude toward Bajorans, or even non-Cardassians in general. They very much considered themselves something of a superior race and in extreme cases refused to even acknowledge other races as having personhood. No, it wasn't a universal attitude, but enough high-ranking Cardassians held the view and condoned atrocities as bad as anything in human history. This is a case where the Cardassians were intentionally made to be offensive by the writers, to provide a race of bad guys to pit the heroes against.
Later in the series, we learn more about Cardassian culture and how the military and the Obsidian Order were subverting it for their own agendas. Our view of the Cardassians had to change as the writers evolved them. We didn't have to like them as a whole. But we came to understand them a little, and even like some of them. They stopped being a one-dimensional caricature of an "evil" alien race.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Bluegeek, what you describe with O'Brien is a good example of showing something that is indeed very realistic--but not setting it out to be the norm or the right. It's something he continually has to struggle with and we *see* that struggle. That's good writing. What bothers me is when I see something put out there as the norm, or even as the outright "moral of the story" as spoken by the hero, to be taken as gospel, that it irks me. (My example above.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Bluegeek, I'm not pointing towards characters being racist and being called out on it as a character flaw, I'm talking about episodes that give racist, sexist, or otherwise harmful messages.
And "Macrocosm", because one of my character flaws is that I'm prejudiced against macroviruses.
I'm going to have to include all of TOS on the offensive list because Walter Koenig is NOT Russian and his accent is obviously an over exaggerated parody of real Russian speech in English. This is offensive to the Russian Race and to all English Language Learners.
Pavel Chekov has a speech impediment. Are you being insensitive to people with speech impediments?
Bluegeek, I'm not pointing towards characters being racist and being called out on it as a character flaw, I'm talking about episodes that give racist, sexist, or otherwise harmful messages.
And "Macrocosm", because one of my character flaws is that I'm prejudiced against macroviruses.
Worffan, I think you need to show a bit more respect. Everyone's definition of offensive is a little bit different, and you have come into a public place and asked for feedback. I think showing respect to each other here of all places is important, after all, if we can't discuss what is offensive civilly, without becoming offensive/disrespectful and intolerant ourselves, what hope is there left for us?
I'm going to have to include all of TOS on the offensive list because Walter Koenig is NOT Russian and his accent is obviously an over exaggerated parody of real Russian speech in English. This is offensive to the Russian Race and to all English Language Learners.
I would call Irish a nationality and/or an ethnicity. Lolz on you turning around and using the term 'Russian Race' right after declaring that Irish isn't a race.
I can also see someone using the term 'race' in a figurative sense in regard to any specific group of people with a shared genealogy. In which case, the 'Irish race' might apply in a non-scientific way.
As to Koenig's Chekov accent, you might as well be offended that Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow doesn't have a Russian accent. They're actors playing a part. If you have to be offended at anybody, be offended at the casting director for not finding actors with real accents.
Try as I might, my wife tells me I have a horrible parody of a British accent whenever I try it. I just can't seem to get it right. I'm sure I'd offend anybody from the U.K. who heard me, too. It's not intentional. It's just an unexplainable inability to pick it up, coupled with an irrational urge to try it because I like the sound of it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Worffan, I think you need to show a bit more respect. Everyone's definition of offensive is a little bit different, and you have come into a public place and asked for feedback. I think showing respect to each other here of all places is important, after all, if we can't discuss what is offensive civilly, without becoming offensive/disrespectful and intolerant ourselves, what hope is there left for us?
This, 100%. It is difficult to come up with a definition of what is offensive that everyone will agree on, as not everyone has the same sensibilities or sensitivities. Case in point, I am not nearly as bothered by "Who Watches the Watchers" as Berat is, or for that matter, by many of the examples that Worffan posted. On the flip side, that does not necessarily invalidate the opinion of those who are offended by these episodes. You have the right to take offense, though not everyone will share your opinion.
This, 100%. It is difficult to come up with a definition of what is offensive that everyone will agree on, as not everyone has the same sensibilities or sensitivities. Case in point, I am not nearly as bothered by "Who Watches the Watchers" as Berat is, or for that matter, by many of the examples that Worffan posted. On the flip side, that does not necessarily invalidate the opinion of those who are offended by these episodes. You have the right to take offense, though not everyone will share your opinion.
Note that I did put down a list of what qualifies as offensive for this discussion, and I posted reasons for why I nominated episodes, and took suggestions before the troll brigade came to town.
I'm not just saying "I didn't like this therefore it was bad", I'm saying "these episodes had extremely negative implications due to their mishandling of serious issues, and these other episodes were insultingly stupid".
This, 100%. It is difficult to come up with a definition of what is offensive that everyone will agree on, as not everyone has the same sensibilities or sensitivities. Case in point, I am not nearly as bothered by "Who Watches the Watchers" as Berat is, or for that matter, by many of the examples that Worffan posted. On the flip side, that does not necessarily invalidate the opinion of those who are offended by these episodes. You have the right to take offense, though not everyone will share your opinion.
Yes, indeed. There is also the possibility that your voicing your opinion at something for being offensive will be offensive to others in and of itself. :P
Bluegeek, I'm not pointing towards characters being racist and being called out on it as a character flaw, I'm talking about episodes that give racist, sexist, or otherwise harmful messages.
I've got to put that down as bad writing. Not so much as being intentionally racist, sexist, or name-your-prejudice. Just not thinking hard enough about how the audience might react to those particular episodes.
TOS aired at a time when people's attitudes toward those things were still changing in the wake of the 60's. There was still segregation going on. And even today we're still dealing with people who stereotype and discriminate against other people just because of what they look like. Some of them don't even think about it. If they did, they might treat others differently.
I find it hard to believe that the producers of any modern Star Trek series would intentionally endorse any sort of racism. Sexism, perhaps, because sex sells and titillation goes over well with some of the target demographic. Even then, I doubt the main goal is necessarily to objectify women. That's an unfortunate by-product when they try to make steamy love scenes or exclusively cast attractive women and men for screen appeal.
Take the Betazoid wedding ceremony. You can take the offered explanation that nudity is supposed to symbolize openness. Or you can understand it as "sex sells". And they might very well both be true.
On the flip side of that, there's "Moogie". Where the Ferengi customs are obviously intended to be portrayed offensively and the message is actually anti-sexist. Go on, feel free to bleach your eyes now. I'm going to. You can thank me later.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I would point out that Q, to his credit, has never actually called himself a god. I think he mentioned once that other people have called him the God of Lies, but he never actually tried to claim the title, unlike whatever Apollo was.
I'm somewhat new to SG-1 being that I'm halfway through the second season but are you referring to
the episode "Emancipation"? If so, I didn't really find that one really offensive to the audience being that we as the viewers were supposed to side with Carter's views to establish that the chief was some big bad, if you get what I mean. It wasn't a very good episode to begin with though. The only bright side was that SG-1 didn't almost destroy the world through sheer incompetence as they do every other episode in season 2:rolleyes:.
And in a positive comparison to "Code of Honor", which "Emancipation" was pretty much a rewrite of by the same scriptwriter, O'Neill was fully willing to just shoot Turghan and the rest of his tribe if he had to in order to retrieve Carter, which Picard apparently wasn't for Yar. (There's a prominent shot during the Turghan/Carter fight of O'Neill's finger itching towards the safety on his MP5.)
I'm not saying it wasn't a sh*tty episode overall (for one thing you'd think Daniel would be a lot angrier about the whole thing considering his own wife was kidnapped for a similar purpose just two episodes earlier), but I'd pick Jack O'Neill as my CO over Picard any day.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I would point out that Q, to his credit, has never actually called himself a god. I think he mentioned once that other people have called him the God of Lies, but he never actually tried to claim the title, unlike whatever Apollo was.
not true; he literally called himself God in 'Tapestry', as shown below
"Q, what is going on?"
"I told you. You're dead, this is the afterlife, and I'm God."
"You are not God!"
"Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast you out or smite you or something."
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
not true; he literally called himself God in 'Tapestry', as shown below
Yeah, I'm not counting trolling. Maybe I should've said "never unironically called himself God".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
About Russians--definitely not a "race." Russia is home to a very large number of ethnicities, who identify as being of Russian nationality. Heck, my character Alyosha (though not actually human) reflects in his human form a multiethnic origin, which includes both Caucasian and native Siberian.
(I actually did not recognize the Siberian aspect for what it was until someone from Eastern Europe saw his design and told me that was what it was.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Anything that could potentially be seen as offensive in ST was probably either designed to highlight discrimnitory attitudes to shine light on them, or didn't reflect major concerns at the time the episodes were written (and I'm sure a healthy dose of bad writing can be added to the equation). I don't really see the merit of picking through each episode with the fine-tooth comb looking for offense, because regardless of the show, there will always be something unintentional to take offense to: Spongebob, for example.
:eek: My God, I never thought I'd wind up agreeing with nabreeki.
Wow.... just wow... Seems to me that the OP is actually looking for things to be offended about.
Because a lot of those are some the most backwards and twisted ways of looking at them. :rolleyes:
Honestly of that list only 2 or 3 at most can be considered genuinely offensive.
I would call Irish a nationality and/or an ethnicity. Lolz on you turning around and using the term 'Russian Race' right after declaring that Irish isn't a race.
I can also see someone using the term 'race' in a figurative sense in regard to any specific group of people with a shared genealogy. In which case, the 'Irish race' might apply in a non-scientific way.
As to Koenig's Chekov accent, you might as well be offended that Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow doesn't have a Russian accent. They're actors playing a part. If you have to be offended at anybody, be offended at the casting director for not finding actors with real accents.
Try as I might, my wife tells me I have a horrible parody of a British accent whenever I try it. I just can't seem to get it right. I'm sure I'd offend anybody from the U.K. who heard me, too. It's not intentional. It's just an unexplainable inability to pick it up, coupled with an irrational urge to try it because I like the sound of it.
Personally, while it isn't contained within Dragon's Teeth itself, the fact that "Vaadwaur" is a Talaxian racial slur (rather than the language that these people call themselves) makes all your interactions with them in STO very offensive.
My mom, my dad, my grandparents, my uncle, my aunt, my two stepsisters, my stepmother, my dad's neighbors, my grandparents' neighbors, my uncle-we're-not-actually-related-but-I-call-him-my-uncle-anyway...
My entire family is Irish. And I don't mean in the sense of "descended from the Irish," I mean "my parents only moved to America in 1986, I was the first member of my family born in America, my dad moved back to Ireland in 2003, my great-grandfather fought in both the Irish War of Independence and the Irish Civil War, and the great majority of my relatives still live in Ireland, mostly in and around the Dublin area, though my dad lives in Kilkenny. I have visited Ireland at least once a year since I was two, went to Kindergarten there, nearly destroyed the Book of Kells when I threw up on its case as a baby (and am probably the reason why no one is allowed to get closer than 10 feet to it anymore), and yet despite all this I can't do an Irish accent to save my life except when singing a song by The Pogues, Flogging Molley, or Thin Lizzy."
I can safely say that unless there's someone in this thread that actually lives there, I know more about Ireland and the Irish than anyone here.
That episode portrays Irish people as violent, stupid drunks. Which is offensive.
My father, on the Irish:
"The Irish are a race of thieves."
"The Irish are like the French in that they have delusions of relevancy."
Those are literally the most printable things that my father has ever said about his own race. Many Irish folk I have met have even less positive things to say about their own race. It's kind of like how most of the best Russian humor is based around making fun of Russians*, only the Irish aren't usually making jokes. This is leaving aside that the Irish are the most casually racist people I know of - well, them and the Japanese. Visiting Ireland is like taking a trip to every stereotypical version of the Deep South you have ever seen except it's freezing cold and pissing rain and folk speak with an Irish brogue rather than a Southern drawl. As near as I can tell the only thing the Irish find offensive is bringing up the Troubles in polite company, or speaking ill of the Pope. And not even all Irish folk on the latter.
Now, having said that, as mentioned, I am hereby unilaterally declaring myself as an expert on the Irish and will make some notes.
- The Irish actually don't consume that much alcohol...comparatively A significant portion of the island are actually teetotalers, and the French, Austrians, Estonians, and Germans all outrank the Irish in terms of per-capita alcohol consumption (according to the OECD - the WHO actually ranks them even lower). Having said that, though, 5th place in all of Europe is still rather immense.
- The Irish are fairly belligerent but rarely to the point of crime, because they expect belligerence from amongst each other and so don't take things as seriously. As long as no one is permanently hurt, then it's not worth reporting. Ireland ranks 50th in the world in terms of crime. Part of this, though, might be a result of how underpopulated the island is, meaning that people have plenty of space. Most of the population is concentrated around Dublin. The island could probably support 10 million people but has less than half that, and the population still isn't as large as it was before the Potato Famine (8.2 million in 1841, 4.5 million today).
- The above is not helped by the fact that until recently half of all Irish people born on the island would leave, emigrating to America or Europe rather than staying there. Ireland was just not a pleasant place to live until about the mid-90s - despite its allegiance to NATO it was for all intents and purposes a third world nation in terms of economy. This is not helped by...
- Massive, massive, massive, massive political corruption the likes of which you cannot even comprehend unless you've actually lived in the country and seen it in action. House of Cards is par for the course in Ireland.
- Finally, at the time that "Fair Haven" is supposed to be set - that is, the mid to late 19th century - Ireland really was like that. It was full of violent and stupid drunks - violent because of the famine and English oppression, stupid because of poor education due to English oppression, and drunk because it was better to drink than to contemplate the reality that was Ireland of the era, thanks to English oppression.
---
*My favorite Russian joke, told by Russians about Russians: An American, a Frenchman and a Russian are all captured by the TRIBBLE and sentenced to death. Each is allowed to choose the method of execution. The Frenchman goes first, and chooses a guillotine. But the guillotine is not working, so they set him free. As he passes by the American, he whispers: "The guillotine is broken," so the American also chooses the guillotine, and is also set free. As the American passes by the Russian, he whispers: "The guillotine is broken." "Well, since the guillotine is broken," says the Russian, "then give me the firing squad!"
Comments
But just to use one small example of one that I WAS offended by, to me there is a difference between Gul Dukat spouting off bigoted things about the Bajoran race and religion, and hearing Picard saying similarly offensive things. Dukat is a villain; he's not to be taken seriously. Picard, however, has been explicitly set up by the writers as the absolute pinnacle of human evolution and thought. His words have a different weight and are intended to be taken as the moral right.
A lot of grimdark shows like Walking Dead, though, seem to make a trope out of populating the whole cast full of horrible people. It unfortunately just goes with the territory. I solve that problem by just not watching. I saw nuBsG. I do not need to see every single other show that has or is doing the exact same thing in different settings. Once I could do but once is enough for me.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
As to the topic at hand, I think it's possible for a good story to be intentionally offensive as a way of highlighting an injustice. It's also possible for individual characters to be offensive in large or small ways that establish their personality and background and provide fodder for plots and subplots. The writers are not necessarily endorsing those viewpoints. Rather they're using them as hooks to try to tell an interesting story.
Take O'Brien's dislike for Cardassians as an example of "racism". His dislike is rooted in his experiences in a war where the conduct of the opposing Cardassian military was notably bad and brutal by any modern standard. The character was largely unapologetic in his visceral attitudes toward the 'Cardies'. You might not condone his "racist" attitude, but it was certainly understandable and not entirely unwarranted. Individual Cardassians proved to be exceptions to the rule and even some of the 'bad' Cardassians had their moments of having good intentions. Even Dukat.
The flip side of that is the Cardassian attitude toward Bajorans, or even non-Cardassians in general. They very much considered themselves something of a superior race and in extreme cases refused to even acknowledge other races as having personhood. No, it wasn't a universal attitude, but enough high-ranking Cardassians held the view and condoned atrocities as bad as anything in human history. This is a case where the Cardassians were intentionally made to be offensive by the writers, to provide a race of bad guys to pit the heroes against.
Later in the series, we learn more about Cardassian culture and how the military and the Obsidian Order were subverting it for their own agendas. Our view of the Cardassians had to change as the writers evolved them. We didn't have to like them as a whole. But we came to understand them a little, and even like some of them. They stopped being a one-dimensional caricature of an "evil" alien race.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
And "Macrocosm", because one of my character flaws is that I'm prejudiced against macroviruses.
Isnt that always the wrong way?
:P
Worffan, I think you need to show a bit more respect. Everyone's definition of offensive is a little bit different, and you have come into a public place and asked for feedback. I think showing respect to each other here of all places is important, after all, if we can't discuss what is offensive civilly, without becoming offensive/disrespectful and intolerant ourselves, what hope is there left for us?
I would call Irish a nationality and/or an ethnicity. Lolz on you turning around and using the term 'Russian Race' right after declaring that Irish isn't a race.
I can also see someone using the term 'race' in a figurative sense in regard to any specific group of people with a shared genealogy. In which case, the 'Irish race' might apply in a non-scientific way.
As to Koenig's Chekov accent, you might as well be offended that Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow doesn't have a Russian accent. They're actors playing a part. If you have to be offended at anybody, be offended at the casting director for not finding actors with real accents.
Try as I might, my wife tells me I have a horrible parody of a British accent whenever I try it. I just can't seem to get it right. I'm sure I'd offend anybody from the U.K. who heard me, too. It's not intentional. It's just an unexplainable inability to pick it up, coupled with an irrational urge to try it because I like the sound of it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This, 100%. It is difficult to come up with a definition of what is offensive that everyone will agree on, as not everyone has the same sensibilities or sensitivities. Case in point, I am not nearly as bothered by "Who Watches the Watchers" as Berat is, or for that matter, by many of the examples that Worffan posted. On the flip side, that does not necessarily invalidate the opinion of those who are offended by these episodes. You have the right to take offense, though not everyone will share your opinion.
Note that I did put down a list of what qualifies as offensive for this discussion, and I posted reasons for why I nominated episodes, and took suggestions before the troll brigade came to town.
I'm not just saying "I didn't like this therefore it was bad", I'm saying "these episodes had extremely negative implications due to their mishandling of serious issues, and these other episodes were insultingly stupid".
Probably a wise decision.
My character Tsin'xing
I've got to put that down as bad writing. Not so much as being intentionally racist, sexist, or name-your-prejudice. Just not thinking hard enough about how the audience might react to those particular episodes.
TOS aired at a time when people's attitudes toward those things were still changing in the wake of the 60's. There was still segregation going on. And even today we're still dealing with people who stereotype and discriminate against other people just because of what they look like. Some of them don't even think about it. If they did, they might treat others differently.
I find it hard to believe that the producers of any modern Star Trek series would intentionally endorse any sort of racism. Sexism, perhaps, because sex sells and titillation goes over well with some of the target demographic. Even then, I doubt the main goal is necessarily to objectify women. That's an unfortunate by-product when they try to make steamy love scenes or exclusively cast attractive women and men for screen appeal.
Take the Betazoid wedding ceremony. You can take the offered explanation that nudity is supposed to symbolize openness. Or you can understand it as "sex sells". And they might very well both be true.
On the flip side of that, there's "Moogie". Where the Ferengi customs are obviously intended to be portrayed offensively and the message is actually anti-sexist. Go on, feel free to bleach your eyes now. I'm going to. You can thank me later.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
And in a positive comparison to "Code of Honor", which "Emancipation" was pretty much a rewrite of by the same scriptwriter, O'Neill was fully willing to just shoot Turghan and the rest of his tribe if he had to in order to retrieve Carter, which Picard apparently wasn't for Yar. (There's a prominent shot during the Turghan/Carter fight of O'Neill's finger itching towards the safety on his MP5.)
I'm not saying it wasn't a sh*tty episode overall (for one thing you'd think Daniel would be a lot angrier about the whole thing considering his own wife was kidnapped for a similar purpose just two episodes earlier), but I'd pick Jack O'Neill as my CO over Picard any day.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
...I dunno.
I'm kind of evenly split between Unexpected, Tattoo, and Code of Honor myself.
To be honest, I only popped in to get some attention 'cause I have no idea what you guys were talking about anyway.
Just go on with whatever you did here why I listen to some melancholic Rosenstolz Songs.
Yeah, I'm not counting trolling. Maybe I should've said "never unironically called himself God".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
(I actually did not recognize the Siberian aspect for what it was until someone from Eastern Europe saw his design and told me that was what it was.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
:eek: My God, I never thought I'd wind up agreeing with nabreeki.
What senatorvreenak said...
Blue, Nabreeki is just pulling chains again.
I mean, talk about starting on the wrong foot.
My mom, my dad, my grandparents, my uncle, my aunt, my two stepsisters, my stepmother, my dad's neighbors, my grandparents' neighbors, my uncle-we're-not-actually-related-but-I-call-him-my-uncle-anyway...
My entire family is Irish. And I don't mean in the sense of "descended from the Irish," I mean "my parents only moved to America in 1986, I was the first member of my family born in America, my dad moved back to Ireland in 2003, my great-grandfather fought in both the Irish War of Independence and the Irish Civil War, and the great majority of my relatives still live in Ireland, mostly in and around the Dublin area, though my dad lives in Kilkenny. I have visited Ireland at least once a year since I was two, went to Kindergarten there, nearly destroyed the Book of Kells when I threw up on its case as a baby (and am probably the reason why no one is allowed to get closer than 10 feet to it anymore), and yet despite all this I can't do an Irish accent to save my life except when singing a song by The Pogues, Flogging Molley, or Thin Lizzy."
I can safely say that unless there's someone in this thread that actually lives there, I know more about Ireland and the Irish than anyone here.
My father, on the Irish:
"The Irish are a race of thieves."
"The Irish are like the French in that they have delusions of relevancy."
Those are literally the most printable things that my father has ever said about his own race. Many Irish folk I have met have even less positive things to say about their own race. It's kind of like how most of the best Russian humor is based around making fun of Russians*, only the Irish aren't usually making jokes. This is leaving aside that the Irish are the most casually racist people I know of - well, them and the Japanese. Visiting Ireland is like taking a trip to every stereotypical version of the Deep South you have ever seen except it's freezing cold and pissing rain and folk speak with an Irish brogue rather than a Southern drawl. As near as I can tell the only thing the Irish find offensive is bringing up the Troubles in polite company, or speaking ill of the Pope. And not even all Irish folk on the latter.
Now, having said that, as mentioned, I am hereby unilaterally declaring myself as an expert on the Irish and will make some notes.
- The Irish actually don't consume that much alcohol...comparatively A significant portion of the island are actually teetotalers, and the French, Austrians, Estonians, and Germans all outrank the Irish in terms of per-capita alcohol consumption (according to the OECD - the WHO actually ranks them even lower). Having said that, though, 5th place in all of Europe is still rather immense.
- The Irish are fairly belligerent but rarely to the point of crime, because they expect belligerence from amongst each other and so don't take things as seriously. As long as no one is permanently hurt, then it's not worth reporting. Ireland ranks 50th in the world in terms of crime. Part of this, though, might be a result of how underpopulated the island is, meaning that people have plenty of space. Most of the population is concentrated around Dublin. The island could probably support 10 million people but has less than half that, and the population still isn't as large as it was before the Potato Famine (8.2 million in 1841, 4.5 million today).
- The above is not helped by the fact that until recently half of all Irish people born on the island would leave, emigrating to America or Europe rather than staying there. Ireland was just not a pleasant place to live until about the mid-90s - despite its allegiance to NATO it was for all intents and purposes a third world nation in terms of economy. This is not helped by...
- Massive, massive, massive, massive political corruption the likes of which you cannot even comprehend unless you've actually lived in the country and seen it in action. House of Cards is par for the course in Ireland.
- Finally, at the time that "Fair Haven" is supposed to be set - that is, the mid to late 19th century - Ireland really was like that. It was full of violent and stupid drunks - violent because of the famine and English oppression, stupid because of poor education due to English oppression, and drunk because it was better to drink than to contemplate the reality that was Ireland of the era, thanks to English oppression.
---
*My favorite Russian joke, told by Russians about Russians: An American, a Frenchman and a Russian are all captured by the TRIBBLE and sentenced to death. Each is allowed to choose the method of execution. The Frenchman goes first, and chooses a guillotine. But the guillotine is not working, so they set him free. As he passes by the American, he whispers: "The guillotine is broken," so the American also chooses the guillotine, and is also set free. As the American passes by the Russian, he whispers: "The guillotine is broken." "Well, since the guillotine is broken," says the Russian, "then give me the firing squad!"