I've tried to help people in pve as well and it's generally the same. They will argue with you as to why such and such skill is better or such and such console is better.
Take time to help those that want help, not those that don't want it.
And again you guys are defending this stupid [Threat] aggro mechanic, wich doesnt even work well in PvP..
You must be a special kind of 'special' when you think [+Threat] works in PvP at all. LOL. (Or [-Threat], for that matter; again, LOL).
In PvE, however (what we were actually talking about, remember?). [+Threat] works very well. [-Threat], on the other hand, not so much (simply because doing DPS rapidly overtakes any [-Threat] you had going).
The OP is flying around in the PvE's in a Ar'Kif with epic antiprotons probably a ton of lobi gear Elite pets pushing 50k dps with his pointied eared Romulan Self.
That's Kool and Fine
Those humans in cruisers cant match that Dps...........And you know what their Star Trek ships and this is a Star Trek game
I never heard that a Tank was soposed to heal some else the Tank is soposed to be healed !
But Tank....is a D&D thing not a star trek thing in the first place...Bad mechanice that should not be in game and will never be accepted by most star trek fans .............Its only accepted by general mmo players..........cyrptics fault for putting it in the game in the first place there slowly changing it
The OP should make a human get in a cruiser then with the resources level and gear of that character only, and not open his wallet for hundreds of dollars of lobi and trait's gear and abilitys from other ships.
But I think the OP wants everyone to have romulan characters with the antiproton set up like what he has for Da Max DPS.......That's not going to happen
If you want to be the DPS king and showboat in the PvE Qs then play the Goalie not the star quarterback OP
There is no reason for a Infected or Kit stf to fail if your flying a 50k dps ship
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Seems a lot of posters think this is a "classic" mmo...and you couldnt be more wrong.
Tanks? lol yeah right for what exactly? Healers? hahahaha good one,this game was flawed in its design since day one,there isnt a holy trinity and there will never be one,all you need is pewpew and you're all set.
Exactly this ...
On the "STO Rebirth" thread, I've read that the first ISE looked a lot like DR ISA , with the dps standards set too high ... and then I lol'ed.
I've been recently levelling a romulan sci to be used maybe someday in pvp; after he hit 50, I started to gather marks for the dailies ... with some resources and some wit, a cheap plasma build , a Scimi, the Vastam trait and the help of the new embassy consoles, I made him able to reach 25k under good conditions.
Guess what? I think I've failed something like 70% ISAs and CSAs ... no big deal for me but what about a new player with only one toon? oh well, there's still Defera, the most bugged place in the universe ...
So, we are here bantering about DPS-centric mentalities and "I wanna play mah style" when pugs FAIL because teams either don't know how to play and/or do too less of a damage to make it succeed.
So, blame the game, not the OP and then be constructive.
The challenge is to PvE, not PvP, players. Threat is not broken in PvP, it just bears little in the way to play PvP. It's working as it was designed.
In PvE, threat works. Knowing how to utilize it or take advantage of it, is something entirely different.
No, it doesnt really works, since its DPS related and not skill related.
A damage dealer has skill options to do its damage, especially via tac captain skills and tac boffs skills.
A sci debuffer/healer has again plenty of options to do his "thing", whatever is to debilitate his opponent(s) and/or heal his team especially via sci captain skills and sci boff skills.
That "especially" is there becouse there are other options, but these are the most used/suitable.
And what skills a tank has to get aggro and, very important, to maintaint it aswell. Becouse if he cant do that then its not an effective one. The enginner skills, both captain and boffs, provide none what so ever...
You must be a special kind of 'special' when you think [+Threat] works in PvP at all. LOL. (Or [-Threat], for that matter; again, LOL).
In PvE, however (what we were actually talking about, remember?). [+Threat] works very well. [-Threat], on the other hand, not so much (simply because doing DPS rapidly overtakes any [-Threat] you had going).
I am really having a good laugh at you DPS ppl how you got nothing to do but nitpick stuff. It becomes rather boring tho.
Was refering to the Threat mechanic as a whole, not the consoles, wich also includes the passive threat skill from captain skills, wich provides a bonus dmg ress that works in PvP...
And you really think its a wise game design to make aggro just for PvE and not work fully for PvP too?
But w/e, hope i get more DPSers on my ignore list cuz of this "challange". Sux tho there isnt a small text window to make notes why u ignored ppl so you can avoid teaming with them. Would be better if the team system, in fact, wouldnt allow it to team with ppl from iggy list. Now that would be an improvement.
This subject of this challenge involves the ever last battle of philosophies between those who can achieve good DPS and those who cannot/don't want to. This has become such a polarising issue especially since Delta Rising that I believe that there needs to be some perspective on what's really going on and I hope those who engage with this thread being from either camp gain a better understanding of what's really going on.
I am a DPS'er and to many in this game I'm one of the bad guys. However, when I look back at what it what it took to get where I am I can't see how I can qualify as being "bad". Those who label me as bad usually come from the "I like to tank", "I'm a sci/healer", I'm a team player or my very own favourite "I play to have fun" camps.
Let's quickly touch on two of these - "I like to tank" - a tank that does TRIBBLE DPS because it is choked full of heals and defensive ability and doesn't die is held in high regard by these players. DPS isn't important because they didn't die and that makes them the best player in the advanced or elite pve they just did! This is ignoring the fact that a 20 DPS tank means the other 4 people on the team have increased workload to complete the mission and also due to the low DPS the NPCs think there isn't actually a player there, just empty space. No tankers, if you aren't contributing to your share of the DPS your builds aren't making it up to the team in other ways.
"I play to support the team" - well since STO is DPS centric. DPS people have this reputation by non-DPS people that they aren't team players and this is despite all videos you have seen from the DPS Wizards having a high amount of teamwork and coordination between players.
In my opinion, people who play in team matches oblivious to what their builds and play style do to the rest of the team AND (note the "and" here because this next part will cause some to scream) don't want to or care to improve are the real trolls in this game. I accept that people are at different levels and prefer a certain type of build/ship and 100k DPS is not everyone goal but not wanting to improve how they play is something I don't understand and can only put it down to arrogance.
Therefore to prove my point, I issue a challenge to everyone in the DPS channels or anyone that does 10k DPS or higher to PUG every space match in the queue and then at the end pass or fail, mention something that would have improved (or passed) the match and offer to help the members who were in the team. Do it by pm if you have to as many warp out without saying gg (meaning good game by the way). If my experience is anything to go by and I do this quite regularly you will be lucky if you get any response at all and even luckier if 1-2 to respond accepting help. Seriously try it, you will be amazed how much people actually don't care about or don't care for improvement....
What can I surmise from this? Most PUGs think they are playing the game perfectly already and your offer to help them improve is an insult or most PUGs don't care about their random team mates and how their performance impacts on them.... if the second part is more accurate then that is trollish behaviour to me.... A forum member from another thread put it very well and I quote: From my experience, pointing out any flaws in build, tactics, or execution will only draw obscenities, "I know what I'm doing, you're the one who doesn't," or ignores.
I urge people to take up this challenge, you will be shocked at how even your attempts to make contact are treated. Please report back your experiences.
What can I surmise from this? Self-righteous DPS guy thinks he and others like him should just dole out unrequested advice to all the lowly non-DPS guys out there.
Maybe, you could respond to people who seek out your advice and leave it at that. Post those experiences here.
Rather than making a hate and discontent/superiority thread, you could make a thread that offers advice on improving builds. This way, people who do want your advice can get it in a nice, helpful setting. You always have the option to team up and go do an STF or other event in the game so you can have the real-time game numbers, work on tactics and strategies, and observe the results of the tweaking and see if you can further improve.
---
I agree with you that DPS-types didn't break the game. You are not the "bad guys." Cryptic decides what content goes in, that DPS is king, and that NPCs have about 75x too many HP.
Honestly, it'd be fun to faceroll a couple Borg STFs, but to me that would start to sap the fun after a while. I want a challenge, not something impossible, but not something so easy it becomes part of the grind.
Just because you don't "like" some people's arguments of not adapting to a DPS play style, doesn't make them invalid. This is a game and people are free to play as they wish. If you run into someone with whom you do not mesh, you are free thereafter to ignore that person and not team with them ever again. As free as they are to keep driving around in the same heal-boat dealing no DPS.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Honestly, it'd be fun to faceroll a couple Borg STFs, but to me that would start to sap the fun after a while. I want a challenge, not something impossible, but not something so easy it becomes part of the grind.
Folks have completed advanced STFs in tier 1 ships. Maybe going down to a tier 4 or 3 ship would give you enough of a challenge to make it fun?
I define players that don't give a hoot as those that don't want to change anything, gear or otherwise. A wise-cracking jerk wanting hand-outs gets no help. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
The fact that I made a tongue in cheek reference to gear should not have been met with such outrage by someone who had a genuine concern for other players. Bad players make you mad... you'd rather insult them than help them. Any offer of help is simply a backhanded insult.
Everyone I read about improving my build said the same thing. Plasmonic Leech, Bioneural Circuitry, Tachyokinetic Converter... purple technicians, [CrtD] Antiprotons, use two copies of FAW, Aux2Batt... THIS is what people are saying helps improve builds. Nobody starts with detailed explanations of how to chain abilities together for maximum effectiveness. That's complicated, hard to explain and difficult to pull off correctly. It's much easier to simply say load up on beams, grab some consoles, and spam the TRIBBLE out of FAW... welcome to 10k DPS.
Oh and regarding fish... There's no point in teaching someone to fish who doesn't even own a fishing pole. You want to help him, give him a pole then teach him how to use it.
And you really think its a wise game design to make aggro just for PvE and not work fully for PvP too?
And, pray-tell, how would drawing aggro in PvP work, as a game mechanic?! You can't *make* people shoot at you: they're not NPC's.
Would be nice, though, if [+Threat] consoles came with a bit of extra resists too (akin to the skill). Of course, only PvP-ers would benefit then, as, like I said, [+Threat] doesn't really draw aggro for yourself in PvP.
Folks have completed advanced STFs in tier 1 ships. Maybe going down to a tier 4 or 3 ship would give you enough of a challenge to make it fun?
Not sure what this has to do with the rest of my post.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Unsolicited advice is always welcomed by people isn't it? Good luck with that.
Here's the thing, OP. The game has changed for the worse in terms of the nonsensical DPS focused queues. This is not the game the majority of us have been playing for the last 5 years or even the past 3. Until recently we could just hop into an elite queue and have fun, whether slow or quick and painless, it didn't matter, because that entire time wasn't going to end up being wasted in most cases. You could take strange builds and test their effectiveness in elite queues. And you never needed parsing.
The game has never been particularly condusive to the things it wants you to do either (why can't this game have both an offensive and defensive target like Anarchy Online?) Why is it that science and aux power are so often terribly pointless if at the expense of weapon power?
You have not made any attempt to make it better by disseminating knowledge. Where are your informational threads that are stickied somewhere? Where is the information in THIS thread? But then how much of your advice requires spending absurd amounts of zen/dilithium/EC?
There is so much info out there that you just can't find. I have never kept up on the superrare doffs out there, so I don't even know what to search for, myself, to just try and educate myself on what they do or their names, to say nothing of how they work with a particular build.
Here is a challenge for YOU. Share a build(s) for the Kobali cruiser, the Breen carrier, or another free T5U ship using only MK 12 reputation/storyline equipment, no lockbox/lobi equipment/traits/doffs, no fleet equipment, no superior romulan operative traits, that is a good fit for any advanced queue. Most people probably have one of those, and can fairly easily grind dilithium for the gear. Most people can afford a build like that.
Share what boff powers you use and why and when for each STF. Share actual STF tactics that work for a group of ships in a cheapo configuration.
if your advice amounts to playing a Tac captain, buying X fleet stuff, Y lobi/lockbox stuff, Z superrare doffs, and/or spending absurd amounts to upgrade a ship to mk 14, then it is bad advice. Offer a build up with the basic tools the game gives everyone, not the rich, the ones with endless time, or the lucky.
I don't see these kinds of threads here any longer. I don't see people trying to keep a thread updated with actual factual information about Boffs, Doffs, or rare consoles, about how they work, and where to get them. Create them. Keep them updated. Point people to them. Create a resource. That is how you inform, not with unsolicited and likely very poorly communicated advice.
Not sure what this has to do with the rest of my post.
You said you wanted it to be challenging, right? Self imposed restrictions increases the difficulties. Using a lower tier ship makes it a bit harder, thus it is more challenging. How about removing some of the weapons from your ship? Just some ideas for you if you honestly want STFs to be more challenging.
The fact that I made a tongue in cheek reference to gear should not have been met with such outrage by someone who had a genuine concern for other players. Bad players make you mad... you'd rather insult them than help them. Any offer of help is simply a backhanded insult.
Everyone I read about improving my build said the same thing. Plasmonic Leech, Bioneural Circuitry, Tachyokinetic Converter... purple technicians, [CrtD] Antiprotons, use two copies of FAW, Aux2Batt... THIS is what people are saying helps improve builds. Nobody starts with detailed explanations of how to chain abilities together for maximum effectiveness. That's complicated, hard to explain and difficult to pull off correctly. It's much easier to simply say load up on beams, grab some consoles, and spam the TRIBBLE out of FAW... welcome to 10k DPS.
Oh and regarding fish... There's no point in teaching someone to fish who doesn't even own a fishing pole. You want to help him, give him a pole then teach him how to use it.
We see things differently, not really right or wrong. You break the ice with a hand out, I don't. You see the gear someone has is not a fishing pole, but I do. I don't attempt to insult, but it can be taken that way. I can't help it if the person is offended that some player is talking to them. Some people are wired that way. You work with the ones wired that way and I'll work with the ones that aren't, ok?
You said you wanted it to be challenging, right? Self imposed restrictions increases the difficulties. Using a lower tier ship makes it a bit harder, thus it is more challenging. How about removing some of the weapons from your ship? Just some ideas for you if you honestly want STFs to be more challenging.
I don't think you read that part in the context of the rest of my original post.
I said I wouldn't mind DPS-ing everything to death once in a while, but not regularly as that would not be challenging/fun for me. I don't DPS. I am not one of those people with a Scimitar, SRO BOFFS, AP everything, etc. Up until DR and the queue changes, I regularly took my T2 Enterprise, and my T1 Connie into Advanced STFs and completed them just fine with Pugs. That was challenging and fun for me. Since the change, Advanced queues are out of the question. I think Normal queues are fine, Advanced has become stupid, and Elite are fine for the uber-DPS types who need HP sponges to kill - I doubt I will ever play Elite.
I was not soliciting ideas for how to make the game harder/more challenging.
---
Foxrockssocks is hitting the nail on the head.
Op, share your builds and build advice. What are some combos of powers or gear that have great synergistic effects on ____? What can I do to improve the ships I want to fly to get the most mileage out of them?
At least posting those types of things in a forum is making the information available to all who want to use it. And, it leaves people the option of not even looking at it.
PM-ing someone after a queue telling them why they suck and how they can suck less is not the kind of interaction I would suspect that most people want. At that point, you're no better than the rager at the end of a match - "OMfG!!1 y couldn't u killz that guy?? wtf?!?!1 stop using dat ship it suxxors."
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Here's the thing, OP. The game has changed for the worse in terms of the nonsensical DPS focused queues. This is not the game the majority of us have been playing for the last 5 years or even the past 3. Until recently we could just hop into an elite queue and have fun, whether slow or quick and painless, it didn't matter, because that entire time wasn't going to end up being wasted in most cases. You could take strange builds and test their effectiveness in elite queues. And you never needed parsing.
How sure are you the game is not for the majority of you? Who are you anyways? In fact who are the majority?
Failing PuGs isnt the majority. if you look at open instances both private and PuGs, PuGs arent even the majority anymore.
You have not made any attempt to make it better by disseminating knowledge. Where are your informational threads that are stickied somewhere? Where is the information in THIS thread? But then how much of your advice requires spending absurd amounts of zen/dilithium/EC?
Thats the problem with the most complaints like what you just said. Players who wants competitive builds refuse to improve, refuse to grind, refuse to pay, refuse to even use the search button.
Self entitlement and spoiled all over with what you said.
if your advice amounts to playing a Tac captain, buying X fleet stuff, Y lobi/lockbox stuff, Z superrare doffs, and/or spending absurd amounts to upgrade a ship to mk 14, then it is bad advice. Offer a build up with the basic tools the game gives everyone, not the rich, the ones with endless time, or the lucky.
Again, this is a problem of self entitlement. If you cannot afford these stuff, why do you think you deserve these stuff. There a lot of casuals and Rpers out there who have accumulated millions of dili and billions of EC.
You either sacrifice time or sacrifice money.
Finally use the search button. There so many DPS builds even in the STO forum is you use the search button. In fact, you posting this took more time than actually finding those builds.
You said you wanted it to be challenging, right? Self imposed restrictions increases the difficulties. Using a lower tier ship makes it a bit harder, thus it is more challenging. How about removing some of the weapons from your ship? Just some ideas for you if you honestly want STFs to be more challenging.
Dont mind them. People in the STO forums who keep whining including the suppose expert PvPers have no clue whats the challenge that awaits them in HSE, even though I dont see their names in the HSE table dong 80k+ DPS and no deaths.
Until such time I do, all these claims that PvE is not a challenge are full of hot air and no substance whatsoever.
How sure are you the game is not for the majority of you? Who are you anyways? In fact who are the majority?
Failing PuGs isnt the majority. if you look at open instances both private and PuGs, PuGs arent even the majority anymore.
Thats the problem with the most complaints like what you just said. Players who wants competitive builds refuse to improve, refuse to grind, refuse to pay, refuse to even use the search button.
Self entitlement and spoiled all over with what you said.
Again, this is a problem of self entitlement. If you cannot afford these stuff, why do you think you deserve these stuff. There a lot of casuals and Rpers out there who have accumulated millions of dili and billions of EC.
You either sacrifice time or sacrifice money.
Finally use the search button. There so many DPS builds even in the STO forum is you use the search button. In fact, you posting this took more time than actually finding those builds.
Dont mind them. People in the STO forums who keep whining including the suppose expert PvPers have no clue whats the challenge that awaits them in HSE, even though I dont see their names in the HSE table dong 80k+ DPS and no deaths.
Until such time I do, all these claims that PvE is not a challenge are full of hot air and no substance whatsoever.
It's not entitlement. Entitlement would be "I hit 50/60 give me full mk14 epic gear" what he's saying is "ok, you demand X level of performance, how can a fresh 50/60 attain X level of performance right out of the gate?" You can't tell people that they need to grind the instances to get the gear, cash, etc so that they can then run those same instances. It's like this:
"before you should be allowed to run advanced queues you need to pull 10k."
"Ok, how do I reach 10k?"
"Run advanced queues".
"..."
See the problem?
You say search the forums for builds, that would be helpful except most if not all the builds out there are for tactical captains running a 5/2 escort, leaving Sci and engineer captains out in the cold.
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
It's not entitlement. Entitlement would be "I hit 50/60 give me full mk14 epic gear" what he's saying is "ok, you demand X level of performance, how can a fresh 50/60 attain X level of performance right out of the gate?" You can't tell people that they need to grind the instances to get the gear, cash, etc so that they can then run those same instances. It's like this:
"before you should be allowed to run advanced queues you need to pull 10k."
"Ok, how do I reach 10k?"
"Run advanced queues".
"..."
See the problem?
You say search the forums for builds, that would be helpful except most if not all the builds out there are for tactical captains running a 5/2 escort, leaving Sci and engineer captains out in the cold.
This right here, too.
Entitlement: I'm here! Where's my awesome s#!t? Gimme, gimme.
Intelligence: I don't have the resources to have all the "top of the line" TRIBBLE. What can I do right now with what I have available? What sorts of things should I be aware of, or looking to do/get going forward?
Asking for help is not entitlement.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Dont mind them. People in the STO forums who keep whining including the suppose expert PvPers have no clue whats the challenge that awaits them in HSE, even though I dont see their names in the HSE table dong 80k+ DPS and no deaths.
Until such time I do, all these claims that PvE is not a challenge are full of hot air and no substance whatsoever.
There's a difference between PvE being a challenge and using the PvE as a backdrop for a player created challenge. And while HSE might be the most challenging PvE content on Holodeck right now, 80k and no deaths isn't a requirement for the content.
Dont mind them. People in the STO forums who keep whining including the suppose expert PvPers have no clue whats the challenge that awaits them in HSE, even though I dont see their names in the HSE table dong 80k+ DPS and no deaths.
Sorry....sorry....I said to myself I'd stay away from elitist debates and I said to myslef I'd stay away from this thread, but I read this and sprayed coffee all over my monitor. And now my cat is looking at me strangely. paxdawn, I'm sending you the cleaning bill when I'm done.
You have not made any attempt to make it better by disseminating knowledge. Where are your informational threads that are stickied somewhere? Where is the information in THIS thread? But then how much of your advice requires spending absurd amounts of zen/dilithium/EC?
That's kind of a baseless attack on the OP. Why would there be information in this thread, btw? This was a challenge to those doing 10k+ to disseminate some knowledge and not give up on the community. But instead, it's basically been a bunch of whining from folks...folks attacking the OP.
Guessing you haven't seen any of the videos they've put together? Basic stuff? Advanced stuff? Covering all sorts of folks. Same with written guides on stuff. Same with build advice...including free gear mission rewards/etc on through the bottomless wallet. They just ooze information that could help all sorts of folks that might want it or might be in need of it. And yeah, if somebody's hitting up Advanced or higher queues and is not meeting the content requirements (not player created requirements, but content requirements) then those folks do need the help.
It does come off as the typical nonsense offered up - like there's some website out there with a guide to spewing garbage on the STO forums. Maybe if folks stopped searching for that info and took the time to search up some of all the information that folks like the OP have provided...oh well...then the forums wouldn't be quite so entertaining, would they?
...oh well...then the forums wouldn't be quite so entertaining, would they?
There is certainly a wide variety of opinions in this thread already. Shpoks already spewed coffee on his monitor, so it's already had at least one comical moment, probably more. Yep, entertaining.
That's kind of a baseless attack on the OP. Why would there be information in this thread, btw? This was a challenge to those doing 10k+ to disseminate some knowledge and not give up on the community. But instead, it's basically been a bunch of whining from folks...folks attacking the OP.
Guessing you haven't seen any of the videos they've put together? Basic stuff? Advanced stuff? Covering all sorts of folks. Same with written guides on stuff. Same with build advice...including free gear mission rewards/etc on through the bottomless wallet. They just ooze information that could help all sorts of folks that might want it or might be in need of it. And yeah, if somebody's hitting up Advanced or higher queues and is not meeting the content requirements (not player created requirements, but content requirements) then those folks do need the help.
It does come off as the typical nonsense offered up - like there's some website out there with a guide to spewing garbage on the STO forums. Maybe if folks stopped searching for that info and took the time to search up some of all the information that folks like the OP have provided...oh well...then the forums wouldn't be quite so entertaining, would they?
I'm sorry I tried, I tried to let this go but:
"Why would there be information in this thread, btw? This way a challenge to those doing 10k+ to disseminate some knowledge "
Why would there be information is a thread asking people to GIVE OUT INFORMATION. Christ on a cracker man, that's so blind Ray Charles is giving you directions.
As for your "haven't you seen the videos?" I tried to watch one of ryanSTO's videos but the audio quality and the length of time it took him to make a point made castration seem pleasant.
Some rough info on how three basic things can affect DPS and the difference they can mean while upgrading gear (even an example of how they can surpass a gear upgrade of somebody not taking them into account)...(yeah, it was already posted in this thread, but posting it again):
Let's say we keep Player B at the initial gearing, but we have them average 75 Weapon Power, engaged 80% of the time, and they're generally attacking from 5km.
18262.6752 DPS vs. 2782.88384 DPS...when both started at 591.13472 DPS and got the same upgrades.
Very rough/basic math - not precise in the least...but a starting point.
Now work in how Player A and Player B might work their buffs/debuffs and the effect that will have on their DPS.
Now add in a team with how the team works their buffs/debuffs and the effect that will have on their DPS.
That gap between Player A and Player B can end up being huge...kind of like what we see in the game.
Could have Player A not even doing 5-10% of what Player B is doing, both having the same gear, but there being a skill and team difference going on. Player B could fly with far worse gear and still massively outperform Player A.
It's why I sometimes make the joke about they could put me in one of Ryan's builds and give Ryan a rebreather and a broken spork...and he'd just smoke me something silly with what he could do compared to the /facepalm I'd be.
It's just the way all the underlying mechanics work...can throw all the resources into gear upgrades that I want, but until I actually think about flying better instead of going wheeee...and decide to fly with some premade group instead of just pugging it...not going to get anywhere near what they do.
Course, doing even 10% of what those guys do is overkill for the content we've got...so I just muddle around doing what I do...wheeeee!
How about the post where the spreadsheet with the info for that range penalty can be found?
You can thank Maelwys whom I haven't seen around for a long time. Oh and beams will never out perform DHCs no matter the range assuming they are on equivalently geared and properly setup boats. Sadly the vast majority of people fail at math and rely on their 'guts'.
Oh and leadership is insanely good on a ship with the right number of crew. Not so high that they all die off and stay dead but not too low the restore rate is bad. Say the steamrunner is just about perfect in my experience for keeping a stupidly high regen rate in combat for me.
How about some info on Accuracy Overflow and selecting mods, eh?
Accuracy Overflow isn't the difference between Bonus Accuracy and Bonus Defense. It's the amount above 100% for the calculated ToHit%.
Say there's a parked target...no traits, no skills, just parked. It's looking at -15% Bonus Defense. Say our attacker has no additional accuracy. So it's 0% BA vs. -15% BD.
That's not 15% Accuracy Overflow. It's a difference of 15%, so we know to use the If Diff Pos formula.
1.13044 - 1 = 0.13044 (%ToHit - 100%ToHit to get the overflow)
Bonus CrtH is 0.125 * Accuracy Overflow.
Bonus CrtD is 0.5 * Accuracy Overflow.
BCrtH = 0.13044 * 0.125 = 0.016305 * 100 = 1.6305% (multiplied by 100 to get the %)
BCrtD = 0.13044 * 0.5 = 0.06522 * 100 = 6.522% (multiplied by 100 to get the %)
So let's add an [Acc] mod to the weapon, yeah?
That takes our Diff to 0.25, still positive. So we run that through the formula.
[Acc] added 0.87% CrtH and 3.5% CrtD.
[CrtH] would have added 2% CrtH.
[CrtD] would have added 20% CrtD.
Course, %ToHit is subject to all sorts of diminishing returns as you boost either Bonus Defense or Bonus Accuracy. So let's run those numbers again, but we'll start with 9 Starship Targeting Systems and the Accurate Trait thrown in to the mix.
So our initial BA will be 0.25 vs. -0.15 BD. So our starting Diff will be 0.4 to work through the formula.
But right here, we can see the diminishing returns by looking at our two previous sets of numbers.
Diff of 0.15 resulted in 0.13044 Acc Overflow, we already lost out on the 0.15 being reduced.
Diff of 0.25 resulted in 0.2, and we see our returns get smaller. Adding 0.1 only added ~0.06956 to the Overflow.
Diff of 0.4 resulted in 0.28572, so that extra 0.15 added ~0.08572 Overflow.
On the flip-side, assume that you still have no inherent Accuracy modifiers, but your target is stopped (and taking a -15% Defense penalty, or -.15), plugging in 1.00 into the Accuracy box, and .85 into the Defense box, you get 0.15 as your Diff score. Since this is positive, you would look in the If Diff Positive box, and get "1.13..." as your result... Meaning you have 'Accuracy Overflow'... You have 100% chance to-hit your target, and, if you look in the lower-right hand portion of the spreadsheet, you can look on the Accuracy Overflow table, and look at the entry for 0.1 (since your overflow is 0.13-ish)... You would gain a little more than 1.25% Critical Chance, and a little more than 5% Critical Severity.
Hope that helps clear up some confusion, and, if you have any questions, I will do my best to answer them here,
-Big Red
How about discussing the underlying formula for damage, eh? From a thread where somebody wanted to split it again I believe and what that would have resulted in...
I can't recall if that's missing anything, but I'm pretty sure that's the inclusive formula...even has the WeaponEnhancementBaseModifier because of the changes they made to Beam Overload.
But let's go with a simple example.
VR Some Kind of Beam Array Mk XIV [CrtD][CrtH][Dmg] as our weapon (not a recommendation - just for this example to include the [Dmg] mod).
We'll fudge the 125 Weapon Power to be all the time.
Won't bother with any Weapon Enhancement.
We'll keep both our Strength and Bonus Boosts simple (lol, I'm not going to try to calculate AMP).
We'll sit at 0.0km on the target.
The target will have no Damage Resistance, and we'll not have applied any Damage Resistance Debuffs.
Base
TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array: 100
Base = 100
Weapon Power
(WeaponPower - 50) * 0.02 = WeaponPowerBoost
(125 - 50) * 0.02 = 75 * 0.02 = 1.5
WeaponPowerBoost = 1.5
Strength Boosts
Starship Weapon Training, Starship Energy Weapons, and Starship Projectile Weapons provide a Strength boost equal to the 0.005 * the Skill Amount. Not the Rank, but the Skill Amount.
Pirate provides a 1.5% Bonus boost. We'll slot two of them, one Diplomacy Nausicaan and one Hierarchy.
2x Pirate: 2 * 0.015 = 0.03
Emergency Power to Weapons I provides +10% Bonus.
EPtWI = 0.1
Going to fudge enough Starship Attack Patterns to make Attack Pattern Omega III a nice even number.
APO3 = 0.25
The two piece Nukara Strikeforce Technologies set bonus was buffed some time back also to provide a Bonus boost to Weapon Damage of +2.5%.
2pc Nukara = 0.025
Like I said, just keeping it simple - no Crit nor other Bonus boosts, no APA, GDF, TacFleet, etc.
0.03 + 0.1 + 0.25 + 0.025 = 0.405
SumAllBonusBoosts = 0.405
Okay then, so looking at our formula again, we can fill it in with those values. Keeping in mind that without any of the items in YellowGreen, that we will use a 0.
We'd have to subtract those particular Strength boosts and add them in on their own there. Well then, so 5.115 - 0.05 {for the [Dmg]} - 2.3 {for the Mk XIV} - 0.075 {for the Very Rare) = 2.69, which would be our new SumAllStrengthBoost. Our WeaponStuffBoost would be equal to what we just removed, 5.115 - 2.69 = 2.425, and we could do a quick recalculation with that.
100 * 2.5 * 3.69 * 3.425 * 1.405 = 4439.1853125; we'll round off to a single decimal place; 4439.2
Changing nothing but the formula there, took us from 2287.2 to 4439.2 damage...an increase of around 94.1% damage. It would be a heinous boost that would totally TRIBBLE up any kind of semblance of balance, eh?
I seem to recall somebody having brought up splitting the Strength boosts before...or was it Bonus boosts, don't remember...but a dev explained how out of whack things would be, I think...just can't remember. Couldn't find the thread...meh, I need more caffeine.
The post from bareel that got me started down that path, yeah?
It goes off of DPV. I will use beam arrays as an example because they are easy to work with.
*Please note this is mostly from memory so exact values may be off
*edit addon, base is the value of a Mk 0 item which simply does not exist*
Base DPV of beam array = 100
These are added to that calculated as a % of it, all are additive.
- Consoles as listed
- Skill bonus .5
- Mark bonus .1
- Rarity bonus .025 per
- Dmg bonus .05 per
So let us say we have skill maxed (99.9 btw) mk 12 ultra rare 3 dmg mod beam array with say +50% from consoles cause that is easy math.
total shield damage reduction = product of individual shield damage reductions
So if you have a shield resist of 25% and a second one of 25%, they will give 1 - (1-.25) * (1-.25) = 1 - .75^2 = 43.75%. (A resist of x% corresponds to a damage reduction factor of 1-x/100).
The damage reduction factor from shield power is calculated as (1 - shield power * 0.0028).
To read the combat log entries, you have to understand the structure. Each line contains two numbers and each shot against shields will give two lines (one for shield damage, the other one for hull damage).
The values in these two lines are:
Shield damage: x (y) with
x = base damage * (1 - shield power * 0.0028) * (product of other shield reductions) * 0.9
y = base damage * (1 - hull resist) * 0.9 (with 0.95 instead of 0.9 in case of resilient shields)
x is the net damage done to the shields. y is the avoided hull damage.
Hull damage: x (y) with
x = base damage * (1 - hull resist) * 0.1 (with .05 instead of .1 in case of resilient shields)
y = base damage
This way if one knows the base damage (from the hull damage line) and all factors in the shield damage line except one, one can calculate that unknown factor.
How about some info on Damage Resistance and Damage Resistance Debuffs? (Doesn't include info for when Damage Bonus Resistance Rating is included.)
queue, the one that bareel gives credit to at times much in the way I give bareel credit!
Alas, that formula doesn't result in expected results.
46 DRR gives 30.66% DR instead of 31.07% DR...
A -20 DRR debuff gives 16.9% DR instead of 21.6% DR...
But it did get me looking at the raw formulas instead of the clean formula, which led to some interesting things.
Energy RDDRRN = 0.5995
Energy TDR = -14.4% Listed -15.6%
No-Accolade Energy RDDRRN = 0.6078
No-Accolade Energy TDR = -16.6% Listed -17.8%
With the Sensor Scan, each listed value is off by 0.7%...
With both, each listed value is off by 1.2%...
It's odd that it matches when base DRR/DR is 0 and you apply the various debuffs. It's odd that it matches with the debuff of 20. Yet, with the Scan and the combination of the Scan/APB1 it's off by that small amount.
A problem with the formula? A tooltip issue? If it was either, why does it work fine when it does?
Oh well, I need to go to the store for more caffeine...
edit: Wasn't thinking - good caffeine (found some more before I left)...rounding. It's probably not actually -69.6 for the Scan. That's a rounded number. The actual number probably results in the listed values.
edit2: So then, somebody took...
DR = -((1/(1+(1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))))-1)
...and do the same? So folks can just plug in that total positive Damage Resistance Rating and the total negative Damage Resistance Rating? I'm going for that caffeine now.
edit3: Though, if it were a rounding thing - wouldn't the 0 DR then Debuff have the same issue? Meh, I'm going to enjoy some caffeine and not think for a bit...lalalala.
But in knowing how that negative DR works - looking at stacking debuffs - adding in some of that nifty new increased bleed...it would definitely change things, eh?
edit4: Needed to note, the DRRP/DRRN numbers...divide by 100 (taking say 17.5 to 0.175) before entering them in the formulas.
There's all sorts of info out there, I'm going to go smoke now though. Hey, here's a challenge...hit up Google for STO free gear guide to look at various lists/explanations of how to get all sorts of gear just from missions and mission replay, yeah? Want to hit up a particular queue...Google it, see the guides about how the instance is laid out and videos of how to path them, eh? There's stuff here, stuff on Reddit, stuff on YouTube, stuff on STOwiki, stuff on STOAcademy, a bunch of fleets have info...folks have collected and shared so much info it can be downright mind-boggling - if somebody would take half a second to look for it. Some folks have even presented that knowledge in much friendlier guides than some of the TLDR bleeding numbers stuff...
So with some basic knowledge, with some basic piloting, and with some basic free gear...have fun. The potential DPS is this game is so far beyond any content requirements, that one can fly almost any style they want and simply cream the content - cause you start adding in traits, mastery, start upgrading gear, and yeah...if the basic stuff was already overkill - yeah, soon folks that can't be bothered will be complaining about you too!
I'm sorry I tried, I tried to let this go but:
"Why would there be information in this thread, btw? This way a challenge to those doing 10k+ to disseminate some knowledge "
Why would there be information is a thread asking people to GIVE OUT INFORMATION. Christ on a cracker man, that's so blind Ray Charles is giving you directions.
If you don't understand what I said there...I've got no idea who could be able to help you.
Okay, here, let me try...
All the information is already here - these forums, Reddit, YouTube, various fleet forums, tons of info. The problem is not linking it/quoting it/retyping it all out yet again for the 9001st time. Information isn't the problem. Folks being unaware of the information is, yeah? So if folks ask if anybody needs any help with anything while actually in the game...that would actually get the info to folks that might not know that it's out there.
...but sure, carry on with your attacks. It's real constructive.
How sure are you the game is not for the majority of you? Who are you anyways? In fact who are the majority?
Failing PuGs isnt the majority. if you look at open instances both private and PuGs, PuGs arent even the majority anymore.
Reading comprehension is something you should work on. I said the game changed from what the majority of us have been playing since before DR. I do not think this is a fact that can be challenged with any seriousness. Most people playing now have been here before DR. DR changed STFs significantly. These are facts even you seem to agree on based on what you wrote, yet you seem to be responding to something else that exists in your head, not what I actually wrote.
Thats the problem with the most complaints like what you just said. Players who wants competitive builds refuse to improve, refuse to grind, refuse to pay, refuse to even use the search button.
Self entitlement and spoiled all over with what you said.
Reading comprehension, please. Read what I wrote. Read what you wrote. Note that the two things are utterly unrelated to each other. If you don't understand the words I wrote, or the words you are using, you may want to try Dictionary.com or some other online dictionary.
Again, this is a problem of self entitlement. If you cannot afford these stuff, why do you think you deserve these stuff. There a lot of casuals and Rpers out there who have accumulated millions of dili and billions of EC.
You either sacrifice time or sacrifice money.
Finally use the search button. There so many DPS builds even in the STO forum is you use the search button. In fact, you posting this took more time than actually finding those builds.
Reading comprehension for the third time. No where was it demanded that I or anyone else be given equipment for free. You need to actually read what you are replying to. What I challenged was a build for someone without access to anything but reputation equipment that can respectably PUG advanced STFs.
Why? So that they can actually earn some rare mats for making kits or selling to buy kits so they can actually begin upgrading to mk 14, and maybe start working on funds for more advanced builds. A working build with nothing fancy and nothing expensive. That is not at all related to the concept of entitlement.
Where does this billions of EC come from? It definitely is not from playing the game. Vendor trash does not make billions of EC for a single character. Playing the market, getting lucky lockbox drops does, but that is not the core gameplay here.
And having used the search button, I am at a loss of how you can claim that at all. The first three pages searching for "DPS build" turned up exactly one thread with an actual build, unfortunately an expensive looking one. It made references to doffs you can't search for in the exchange because you can't search by their power, only name and it gave no names nor a reference for finding such names. Certainly not a build for someone who has just gotten to 50 or even 60 and doesn't have boatloads of dilithium, EC, nor the rare mats for upgrade kits. Using less than superior kits doubles dilithium costs at the very least and will still take months to get enough for a MK 14 ship, not including what you spent on the equipment in the first place.
The game lacks actual references to various things as do the forums. If I want to learn about rare doffs, where do you even learn that? What lockbox do they come from or do they come from some other source? What are their names? What powers do they have? How about consoles? What consoles are out there and where do they come from? You want people to search, but search for what, exactly?
Do you comprehend this? Anyone coming in with no real knowledge has nothing to go on here. There are no useable reference threads. Searching requires them to know something about what they are even searching for in the first place.
People created libraries and the Dewey decimal system so they don't have to sift through piles of books, reading half of them to find the one with information they are interested in. The forums have no such repository of knowledge or a way to find out about things you're looking for but know too little about. Is it that the mods won't sticky things any more, or that there are simply no such threads that exist to be stickied?
I said the game changed from what the majority of us have been playing since before DR.
It's asking for 1-2k more DPS...from 10 additional levels (and even scales folks up to 60). Just saying...
You know, the whole thing with Cryptic saying you wouldn't even need a T5U boat - thus, no Mastery is required either nor Starship Traits. The deal with the Upgrade stuff being there for folks that want to...there's no need. The Specializations being a form of additional advancement for folks that want that sort of thing...again not needed.
Somebody that was doing fine in pre-DR Elite...having played from time to time since the launch of DR...very likely they're doing just fine in DR Advanced.
Somebody that was leeching a dozen alts through pre-DR Elites...might be having a more difficult time with some of the Mandatory Objectives in the Advanceds.
If you don't understand what I said there...I've got no idea who could be able to help you.
Okay, here, let me try...
All the information is already here - these forums, Reddit, YouTube, various fleet forums, tons of info. The problem is not linking it/quoting it/retyping it all out yet again for the 9001st time. Information isn't the problem. Folks being unaware of the information is, yeah? So if folks ask if anybody needs any help with anything while actually in the game...that would actually get the info to folks that might not know that it's out there.
...but sure, carry on with your attacks. It's real constructive.
Yes the information is out there, however, FINDING it can be a problem, especially since the game doesn't even tell you what your damage is, instead forcing people to download one of a multitude of parsers which may or may not be acceptable to the dps community. I've googled sto dps guide before and there's a lot of dross you have to sift through to find up to date information that's applicable to non tactical captains in escorts with hundreds of millions in currency.
As for the game changing since DR, I have to disagree. The mechanics and even the difficulty haven't really changed, the community has though. While there has always been a section of the base obsessed with dps that attitude has spread like a wildfire and as a result creates problems. People trying to just increase their DPS at the expense of tactics is why pugs fail not lack of damage. Sure excess dps can make up for a lack of strategy but that doesn't mean it's the only or even the most effective way to do things.
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
Yes the information is out there, however, FINDING it can be a problem.
I believe this is part of the reason this thread was started. Instead of expecting folks to know the stuff is out there and what is good info and what isn't, for the community to help those that could use help if they would like help.
Not just a passive role with build threads and videos, but an active one that involves communication with individuals.
How are you NOT trolling other players here? You say you want to help, but your presumption is that nobody wants it. You're also being very negative about other people's playstyles and about PUG's in general. And you flat out state that anyone who isn't building for maximum DPS is not only doing something wrong, they're also trolls. By issuing a challenge, aren't you really trying to manipulate people into doing what you want them to do?
Would you like to give me any valid reasons why this thread shouldn't be closed?
If you're really out to help, why wouldn't you be a little nicer about it?
Blue, to be honest, I don't think hes trolling, I believe his intent to be helpful is genuine. Is he the most eloquent person on the thread? Certainly not, but if you were to shut down threads due to lack of eloquence, itd be a very empty forum server. Seriously, this sort of subject is very hard to broach with this an MMO crowd.
Is he 100% right? No, does he have a valid point? Most certainly!
There are threads, and posters, right this moment that are far more troll intense than what the OP is trying to do. Heck, there have been posts from other people, in this thread, made toward the OP that are well within' the troll-bridge limits. If the OP is to be called out, it is only fair and reasonable to call them out as well.
Comments
Take time to help those that want help, not those that don't want it.
You must be a special kind of 'special' when you think [+Threat] works in PvP at all. LOL. (Or [-Threat], for that matter; again, LOL).
In PvE, however (what we were actually talking about, remember?). [+Threat] works very well. [-Threat], on the other hand, not so much (simply because doing DPS rapidly overtakes any [-Threat] you had going).
That's Kool and Fine
Those humans in cruisers cant match that Dps...........And you know what their Star Trek ships and this is a Star Trek game
I never heard that a Tank was soposed to heal some else the Tank is soposed to be healed !
But Tank....is a D&D thing not a star trek thing in the first place...Bad mechanice that should not be in game and will never be accepted by most star trek fans .............Its only accepted by general mmo players..........cyrptics fault for putting it in the game in the first place there slowly changing it
The OP should make a human get in a cruiser then with the resources level and gear of that character only, and not open his wallet for hundreds of dollars of lobi and trait's gear and abilitys from other ships.
But I think the OP wants everyone to have romulan characters with the antiproton set up like what he has for Da Max DPS.......That's not going to happen
If you want to be the DPS king and showboat in the PvE Qs then play the Goalie not the star quarterback OP
There is no reason for a Infected or Kit stf to fail if your flying a 50k dps ship
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Exactly this ...
On the "STO Rebirth" thread, I've read that the first ISE looked a lot like DR ISA , with the dps standards set too high ... and then I lol'ed.
I've been recently levelling a romulan sci to be used maybe someday in pvp; after he hit 50, I started to gather marks for the dailies ... with some resources and some wit, a cheap plasma build , a Scimi, the Vastam trait and the help of the new embassy consoles, I made him able to reach 25k under good conditions.
Guess what? I think I've failed something like 70% ISAs and CSAs ... no big deal for me but what about a new player with only one toon? oh well, there's still Defera, the most bugged place in the universe ...
So, we are here bantering about DPS-centric mentalities and "I wanna play mah style" when pugs FAIL because teams either don't know how to play and/or do too less of a damage to make it succeed.
So, blame the game, not the OP and then be constructive.
No, it doesnt really works, since its DPS related and not skill related.
A damage dealer has skill options to do its damage, especially via tac captain skills and tac boffs skills.
A sci debuffer/healer has again plenty of options to do his "thing", whatever is to debilitate his opponent(s) and/or heal his team especially via sci captain skills and sci boff skills.
That "especially" is there becouse there are other options, but these are the most used/suitable.
And what skills a tank has to get aggro and, very important, to maintaint it aswell. Becouse if he cant do that then its not an effective one. The enginner skills, both captain and boffs, provide none what so ever...
I am really having a good laugh at you DPS ppl how you got nothing to do but nitpick stuff. It becomes rather boring tho.
Was refering to the Threat mechanic as a whole, not the consoles, wich also includes the passive threat skill from captain skills, wich provides a bonus dmg ress that works in PvP...
And you really think its a wise game design to make aggro just for PvE and not work fully for PvP too?
But w/e, hope i get more DPSers on my ignore list cuz of this "challange". Sux tho there isnt a small text window to make notes why u ignored ppl so you can avoid teaming with them. Would be better if the team system, in fact, wouldnt allow it to team with ppl from iggy list. Now that would be an improvement.
What can I surmise from this? Self-righteous DPS guy thinks he and others like him should just dole out unrequested advice to all the lowly non-DPS guys out there.
Maybe, you could respond to people who seek out your advice and leave it at that. Post those experiences here.
Rather than making a hate and discontent/superiority thread, you could make a thread that offers advice on improving builds. This way, people who do want your advice can get it in a nice, helpful setting. You always have the option to team up and go do an STF or other event in the game so you can have the real-time game numbers, work on tactics and strategies, and observe the results of the tweaking and see if you can further improve.
---
I agree with you that DPS-types didn't break the game. You are not the "bad guys." Cryptic decides what content goes in, that DPS is king, and that NPCs have about 75x too many HP.
Honestly, it'd be fun to faceroll a couple Borg STFs, but to me that would start to sap the fun after a while. I want a challenge, not something impossible, but not something so easy it becomes part of the grind.
Just because you don't "like" some people's arguments of not adapting to a DPS play style, doesn't make them invalid. This is a game and people are free to play as they wish. If you run into someone with whom you do not mesh, you are free thereafter to ignore that person and not team with them ever again. As free as they are to keep driving around in the same heal-boat dealing no DPS.
"No" =I was wrong
"it doesn't really work" = You've re-worded what I said
Which is it?
Folks have completed advanced STFs in tier 1 ships. Maybe going down to a tier 4 or 3 ship would give you enough of a challenge to make it fun?
The fact that I made a tongue in cheek reference to gear should not have been met with such outrage by someone who had a genuine concern for other players. Bad players make you mad... you'd rather insult them than help them. Any offer of help is simply a backhanded insult.
Everyone I read about improving my build said the same thing. Plasmonic Leech, Bioneural Circuitry, Tachyokinetic Converter... purple technicians, [CrtD] Antiprotons, use two copies of FAW, Aux2Batt... THIS is what people are saying helps improve builds. Nobody starts with detailed explanations of how to chain abilities together for maximum effectiveness. That's complicated, hard to explain and difficult to pull off correctly. It's much easier to simply say load up on beams, grab some consoles, and spam the TRIBBLE out of FAW... welcome to 10k DPS.
Oh and regarding fish... There's no point in teaching someone to fish who doesn't even own a fishing pole. You want to help him, give him a pole then teach him how to use it.
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
And, pray-tell, how would drawing aggro in PvP work, as a game mechanic?! You can't *make* people shoot at you: they're not NPC's.
Would be nice, though, if [+Threat] consoles came with a bit of extra resists too (akin to the skill). Of course, only PvP-ers would benefit then, as, like I said, [+Threat] doesn't really draw aggro for yourself in PvP.
Not sure what this has to do with the rest of my post.
Here's the thing, OP. The game has changed for the worse in terms of the nonsensical DPS focused queues. This is not the game the majority of us have been playing for the last 5 years or even the past 3. Until recently we could just hop into an elite queue and have fun, whether slow or quick and painless, it didn't matter, because that entire time wasn't going to end up being wasted in most cases. You could take strange builds and test their effectiveness in elite queues. And you never needed parsing.
The game has never been particularly condusive to the things it wants you to do either (why can't this game have both an offensive and defensive target like Anarchy Online?) Why is it that science and aux power are so often terribly pointless if at the expense of weapon power?
You have not made any attempt to make it better by disseminating knowledge. Where are your informational threads that are stickied somewhere? Where is the information in THIS thread? But then how much of your advice requires spending absurd amounts of zen/dilithium/EC?
There is so much info out there that you just can't find. I have never kept up on the superrare doffs out there, so I don't even know what to search for, myself, to just try and educate myself on what they do or their names, to say nothing of how they work with a particular build.
Here is a challenge for YOU. Share a build(s) for the Kobali cruiser, the Breen carrier, or another free T5U ship using only MK 12 reputation/storyline equipment, no lockbox/lobi equipment/traits/doffs, no fleet equipment, no superior romulan operative traits, that is a good fit for any advanced queue. Most people probably have one of those, and can fairly easily grind dilithium for the gear. Most people can afford a build like that.
Share what boff powers you use and why and when for each STF. Share actual STF tactics that work for a group of ships in a cheapo configuration.
if your advice amounts to playing a Tac captain, buying X fleet stuff, Y lobi/lockbox stuff, Z superrare doffs, and/or spending absurd amounts to upgrade a ship to mk 14, then it is bad advice. Offer a build up with the basic tools the game gives everyone, not the rich, the ones with endless time, or the lucky.
I don't see these kinds of threads here any longer. I don't see people trying to keep a thread updated with actual factual information about Boffs, Doffs, or rare consoles, about how they work, and where to get them. Create them. Keep them updated. Point people to them. Create a resource. That is how you inform, not with unsolicited and likely very poorly communicated advice.
You said you wanted it to be challenging, right? Self imposed restrictions increases the difficulties. Using a lower tier ship makes it a bit harder, thus it is more challenging. How about removing some of the weapons from your ship? Just some ideas for you if you honestly want STFs to be more challenging.
We see things differently, not really right or wrong. You break the ice with a hand out, I don't. You see the gear someone has is not a fishing pole, but I do. I don't attempt to insult, but it can be taken that way. I can't help it if the person is offended that some player is talking to them. Some people are wired that way. You work with the ones wired that way and I'll work with the ones that aren't, ok?
I don't think you read that part in the context of the rest of my original post.
I said I wouldn't mind DPS-ing everything to death once in a while, but not regularly as that would not be challenging/fun for me. I don't DPS. I am not one of those people with a Scimitar, SRO BOFFS, AP everything, etc. Up until DR and the queue changes, I regularly took my T2 Enterprise, and my T1 Connie into Advanced STFs and completed them just fine with Pugs. That was challenging and fun for me. Since the change, Advanced queues are out of the question. I think Normal queues are fine, Advanced has become stupid, and Elite are fine for the uber-DPS types who need HP sponges to kill - I doubt I will ever play Elite.
I was not soliciting ideas for how to make the game harder/more challenging.
---
Foxrockssocks is hitting the nail on the head.
Op, share your builds and build advice. What are some combos of powers or gear that have great synergistic effects on ____? What can I do to improve the ships I want to fly to get the most mileage out of them?
At least posting those types of things in a forum is making the information available to all who want to use it. And, it leaves people the option of not even looking at it.
PM-ing someone after a queue telling them why they suck and how they can suck less is not the kind of interaction I would suspect that most people want. At that point, you're no better than the rager at the end of a match - "OMfG!!1 y couldn't u killz that guy?? wtf?!?!1 stop using dat ship it suxxors."
How sure are you the game is not for the majority of you? Who are you anyways? In fact who are the majority?
Failing PuGs isnt the majority. if you look at open instances both private and PuGs, PuGs arent even the majority anymore.
Thats the problem with the most complaints like what you just said. Players who wants competitive builds refuse to improve, refuse to grind, refuse to pay, refuse to even use the search button.
Self entitlement and spoiled all over with what you said.
Again, this is a problem of self entitlement. If you cannot afford these stuff, why do you think you deserve these stuff. There a lot of casuals and Rpers out there who have accumulated millions of dili and billions of EC.
You either sacrifice time or sacrifice money.
Finally use the search button. There so many DPS builds even in the STO forum is you use the search button. In fact, you posting this took more time than actually finding those builds.
Dont mind them. People in the STO forums who keep whining including the suppose expert PvPers have no clue whats the challenge that awaits them in HSE, even though I dont see their names in the HSE table dong 80k+ DPS and no deaths.
Until such time I do, all these claims that PvE is not a challenge are full of hot air and no substance whatsoever.
It's not entitlement. Entitlement would be "I hit 50/60 give me full mk14 epic gear" what he's saying is "ok, you demand X level of performance, how can a fresh 50/60 attain X level of performance right out of the gate?" You can't tell people that they need to grind the instances to get the gear, cash, etc so that they can then run those same instances. It's like this:
"before you should be allowed to run advanced queues you need to pull 10k."
"Ok, how do I reach 10k?"
"Run advanced queues".
"..."
See the problem?
You say search the forums for builds, that would be helpful except most if not all the builds out there are for tactical captains running a 5/2 escort, leaving Sci and engineer captains out in the cold.
Let the stupid suffer
This right here, too.
Entitlement: I'm here! Where's my awesome s#!t? Gimme, gimme.
Intelligence: I don't have the resources to have all the "top of the line" TRIBBLE. What can I do right now with what I have available? What sorts of things should I be aware of, or looking to do/get going forward?
Asking for help is not entitlement.
There's a difference between PvE being a challenge and using the PvE as a backdrop for a player created challenge. And while HSE might be the most challenging PvE content on Holodeck right now, 80k and no deaths isn't a requirement for the content.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPwxgml0Q3A :P
Sorry....sorry....I said to myself I'd stay away from elitist debates and I said to myslef I'd stay away from this thread, but I read this and sprayed coffee all over my monitor. And now my cat is looking at me strangely.
paxdawn, I'm sending you the cleaning bill when I'm done.
That's kind of a baseless attack on the OP. Why would there be information in this thread, btw? This was a challenge to those doing 10k+ to disseminate some knowledge and not give up on the community. But instead, it's basically been a bunch of whining from folks...folks attacking the OP.
Guessing you haven't seen any of the videos they've put together? Basic stuff? Advanced stuff? Covering all sorts of folks. Same with written guides on stuff. Same with build advice...including free gear mission rewards/etc on through the bottomless wallet. They just ooze information that could help all sorts of folks that might want it or might be in need of it. And yeah, if somebody's hitting up Advanced or higher queues and is not meeting the content requirements (not player created requirements, but content requirements) then those folks do need the help.
It does come off as the typical nonsense offered up - like there's some website out there with a guide to spewing garbage on the STO forums. Maybe if folks stopped searching for that info and took the time to search up some of all the information that folks like the OP have provided...oh well...then the forums wouldn't be quite so entertaining, would they?
There is certainly a wide variety of opinions in this thread already. Shpoks already spewed coffee on his monitor, so it's already had at least one comical moment, probably more. Yep, entertaining.
I'm sorry I tried, I tried to let this go but:
"Why would there be information in this thread, btw? This way a challenge to those doing 10k+ to disseminate some knowledge "
Why would there be information is a thread asking people to GIVE OUT INFORMATION. Christ on a cracker man, that's so blind Ray Charles is giving you directions.
As for your "haven't you seen the videos?" I tried to watch one of ryanSTO's videos but the audio quality and the length of time it took him to make a point made castration seem pleasant.
To everyone else, here's a link I found on reddit that MAY prove useful, though you'll have to tweak it for yourself depending on your ship /class. http://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/2j2fuq/basic_dps_guide_the_path_to_10k15k/
Let the stupid suffer
How about the post where the spreadsheet with the info for that range penalty can be found?
How about some info on Accuracy Overflow and selecting mods, eh?
And a direct link to Big Red's post about that including the link to the spreadsheet: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=3576445#post3576445
How about discussing the underlying formula for damage, eh? From a thread where somebody wanted to split it again I believe and what that would have resulted in...
The post from bareel that got me started down that path, yeah?
How about some info from Hilbert on calculating Shield Damage Reduction?
How about some info on Damage Resistance and Damage Resistance Debuffs? (Doesn't include info for when Damage Bonus Resistance Rating is included.)
How about a much cleaner formula that includes DBRR and the rest from rbaker82? I'll just link this one cause at this point I doubt it would fit... http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1128181
There's all sorts of info out there, I'm going to go smoke now though. Hey, here's a challenge...hit up Google for STO free gear guide to look at various lists/explanations of how to get all sorts of gear just from missions and mission replay, yeah? Want to hit up a particular queue...Google it, see the guides about how the instance is laid out and videos of how to path them, eh? There's stuff here, stuff on Reddit, stuff on YouTube, stuff on STOwiki, stuff on STOAcademy, a bunch of fleets have info...folks have collected and shared so much info it can be downright mind-boggling - if somebody would take half a second to look for it. Some folks have even presented that knowledge in much friendlier guides than some of the TLDR bleeding numbers stuff...
So with some basic knowledge, with some basic piloting, and with some basic free gear...have fun. The potential DPS is this game is so far beyond any content requirements, that one can fly almost any style they want and simply cream the content - cause you start adding in traits, mastery, start upgrading gear, and yeah...if the basic stuff was already overkill - yeah, soon folks that can't be bothered will be complaining about you too!
If you don't understand what I said there...I've got no idea who could be able to help you.
Okay, here, let me try...
All the information is already here - these forums, Reddit, YouTube, various fleet forums, tons of info. The problem is not linking it/quoting it/retyping it all out yet again for the 9001st time. Information isn't the problem. Folks being unaware of the information is, yeah? So if folks ask if anybody needs any help with anything while actually in the game...that would actually get the info to folks that might not know that it's out there.
...but sure, carry on with your attacks. It's real constructive.
Reading comprehension is something you should work on. I said the game changed from what the majority of us have been playing since before DR. I do not think this is a fact that can be challenged with any seriousness. Most people playing now have been here before DR. DR changed STFs significantly. These are facts even you seem to agree on based on what you wrote, yet you seem to be responding to something else that exists in your head, not what I actually wrote.
Reading comprehension, please. Read what I wrote. Read what you wrote. Note that the two things are utterly unrelated to each other. If you don't understand the words I wrote, or the words you are using, you may want to try Dictionary.com or some other online dictionary.
Reading comprehension for the third time. No where was it demanded that I or anyone else be given equipment for free. You need to actually read what you are replying to. What I challenged was a build for someone without access to anything but reputation equipment that can respectably PUG advanced STFs.
Why? So that they can actually earn some rare mats for making kits or selling to buy kits so they can actually begin upgrading to mk 14, and maybe start working on funds for more advanced builds. A working build with nothing fancy and nothing expensive. That is not at all related to the concept of entitlement.
Where does this billions of EC come from? It definitely is not from playing the game. Vendor trash does not make billions of EC for a single character. Playing the market, getting lucky lockbox drops does, but that is not the core gameplay here.
And having used the search button, I am at a loss of how you can claim that at all. The first three pages searching for "DPS build" turned up exactly one thread with an actual build, unfortunately an expensive looking one. It made references to doffs you can't search for in the exchange because you can't search by their power, only name and it gave no names nor a reference for finding such names. Certainly not a build for someone who has just gotten to 50 or even 60 and doesn't have boatloads of dilithium, EC, nor the rare mats for upgrade kits. Using less than superior kits doubles dilithium costs at the very least and will still take months to get enough for a MK 14 ship, not including what you spent on the equipment in the first place.
The game lacks actual references to various things as do the forums. If I want to learn about rare doffs, where do you even learn that? What lockbox do they come from or do they come from some other source? What are their names? What powers do they have? How about consoles? What consoles are out there and where do they come from? You want people to search, but search for what, exactly?
Do you comprehend this? Anyone coming in with no real knowledge has nothing to go on here. There are no useable reference threads. Searching requires them to know something about what they are even searching for in the first place.
People created libraries and the Dewey decimal system so they don't have to sift through piles of books, reading half of them to find the one with information they are interested in. The forums have no such repository of knowledge or a way to find out about things you're looking for but know too little about. Is it that the mods won't sticky things any more, or that there are simply no such threads that exist to be stickied?
It's asking for 1-2k more DPS...from 10 additional levels (and even scales folks up to 60). Just saying...
You know, the whole thing with Cryptic saying you wouldn't even need a T5U boat - thus, no Mastery is required either nor Starship Traits. The deal with the Upgrade stuff being there for folks that want to...there's no need. The Specializations being a form of additional advancement for folks that want that sort of thing...again not needed.
Somebody that was doing fine in pre-DR Elite...having played from time to time since the launch of DR...very likely they're doing just fine in DR Advanced.
Somebody that was leeching a dozen alts through pre-DR Elites...might be having a more difficult time with some of the Mandatory Objectives in the Advanceds.
Yes the information is out there, however, FINDING it can be a problem, especially since the game doesn't even tell you what your damage is, instead forcing people to download one of a multitude of parsers which may or may not be acceptable to the dps community. I've googled sto dps guide before and there's a lot of dross you have to sift through to find up to date information that's applicable to non tactical captains in escorts with hundreds of millions in currency.
As for the game changing since DR, I have to disagree. The mechanics and even the difficulty haven't really changed, the community has though. While there has always been a section of the base obsessed with dps that attitude has spread like a wildfire and as a result creates problems. People trying to just increase their DPS at the expense of tactics is why pugs fail not lack of damage. Sure excess dps can make up for a lack of strategy but that doesn't mean it's the only or even the most effective way to do things.
Let the stupid suffer
I believe this is part of the reason this thread was started. Instead of expecting folks to know the stuff is out there and what is good info and what isn't, for the community to help those that could use help if they would like help.
Not just a passive role with build threads and videos, but an active one that involves communication with individuals.
Blue, to be honest, I don't think hes trolling, I believe his intent to be helpful is genuine. Is he the most eloquent person on the thread? Certainly not, but if you were to shut down threads due to lack of eloquence, itd be a very empty forum server. Seriously, this sort of subject is very hard to broach with this an MMO crowd.
Is he 100% right? No, does he have a valid point? Most certainly!
There are threads, and posters, right this moment that are far more troll intense than what the OP is trying to do. Heck, there have been posts from other people, in this thread, made toward the OP that are well within' the troll-bridge limits. If the OP is to be called out, it is only fair and reasonable to call them out as well.