Snipey's point proven in the first reply. Classic.
I know... I mean I knew it would bring people like him out of the wood work but to be the very first response.... they are like magnets to this sort of stuff, aren't they?
OP, you seem to be stuck on the word "bad". There is a HUGE difference between "bad" as you use it, and "bad guy". Your a DPS monger, how nice for you, but your holier than thou attitude makes you a "bad guy" A.K.A. elitest jerk. Cryptic made their bed by catering to you folks, now they get to sleep in it.
If you really were interested in a civil conversation, you would have used a different tone, attitude, and words to make your point.
Meh trolling attempt score: 2/10
Cirran
Woah... were you reading a different post to what I wrote? I would like some examples of this "holier than thou attitude" please. To make my point? I was asking for help to either prove or disprove my assertions. Would someone who is holier than thou or elitist as you put it even do something like that? They would preach and wouldn't care about anyone else opinion! i could easily retort by saying you are showing the qualities that you accuse me of displaying but I won't. I don't want this thread to descend into the two sides going at it based on comments such as these.
If you responded like the first guy did, that would get a harsh response. But I seriously if you ask anybody I have recently helped from the pug world, they would disagree with what you said to me just now...
I take no issue with the OP stating his point of view, I have made the decision not to partake in any PVE anymore due to a number of issues. I say, bring on all discussion on PVEs, I might just learn something and rejoin PVEs.
@snipey47a - friend me and I will help you with your build if you like, mate.
I am a DPS'er and to many in this game I'm one of the bad guys. However, when I look back at what it what it took to get where I am I can't see how I can qualify as being "bad". Those who label me as bad usually come from the "I like to tank", "I'm a sci/healer", I'm a team player or my very own favourite "I play to have fun" camps.
This is an interesting question. How is that someone could classify you as a "bad guy?" Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to generalize key components and make connections with other comparable elements and look for similarities. Let's take this quote and change it up a bit and see what we see.
I am rich and to many in this game I'm one of the bad guys. However, when I look back at what it what it took to get where I am I can't see how I can qualify as being "bad". Those who label me as bad usually come from the "I like to take life slow", "I like helping others", or my very own favourite "money isn't that important to me" camps.
Hmm...interesting. Let's continue with this experiment.
Let's quickly touch on two of these - "I like helping others" - a person that has low wealth because it is choked full of good will and genuinely passive and lives longer is held in high regard by these people. Money isn't important because they live longer and that makes them the best person in the advanced or elite community.! This is ignoring the fact that a low income person means the other 4 people on the team have increased workload to complete the mission and also due to the low income the rest of the world think there isn't actually a person there, just empty space. No people, if you aren't contributing to your share of the money your lives aren't making it up to the community in other ways.
Yes. I'm starting to see a trend here that may lead to an answer to the question, "why do people see me as a bad guy?"
Let's take a look at what your suggestion for dealing with these undesirable elements to your advanced and elite community are.
I issue a challenge to everyone in the DPS channels or anyone that does 10k DPS or higher to PUG every space match in the queue and then at the end pass or fail, mention something that would have improved (or passed) the match and offer to help the members who were in the team.
Well, to continue with our theme...
I issue a challenge to everyone in the wealth channels or anyone that earns $100,000 dollars or higher to hang out with the common man then at the end pass or fail, mention something that would have improved (or passed) the quality of their lives and offer to help the members who were in the team.
I think the picture is starting to become a little clearer. Using the analogy of money as a comparable element to DPS we see a shared theme of arrogance, narcissism and over exaggerated self worth. As I know several players who have maximized their ships to great effect and are generally nice people, I propose the "bad guy" reputation is created by those who feel the rest of the world is wrong and needs fixing for someone not choosing to live your way.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to back to playing to have fun.
1 You are generalizing.
2 You are being insulting by assuming people can't make decisions without your guidance.
3 There is a thing called confirmation bias - when you are looking for evidence to confirm what you already believe. A true test is one that takes into account the possibility that your premise might be wrong.
4 You are assuming that your own personal experience is indicative of a trend. When searching for evidence to prove or disprove something it's better to take into account evidence from multiple sources that is why surveys aren't based on one persons experience or belief.
5 You are making projections and you claim to know how most people doing pugs think and feel. You might know how some people think and feel but unless you do pugs 24/7 I doubt you can know such things about so many people.
Unless you are about to claim that you are god maybe you should avoid making absolutist claims (most, all, etc)
Wow... I want to say you are another one that confirms my theory but I won't since you seem to have put some thought into your response. Please allow me to respond.
In answer to:
1: I'm not actually, having played all careers extensively and have beaten every queue in the game multiple times, I have observed what builds work where. I do PVP a lot and am familiar with what works in both the PVE and PVP sphere.. do I say I'm an expert? No I'm not... I'm far from it actually... and when it comes to people like RyanSTO I am not ashamed to admit I don't know nearly half of what he does. But I learn more and more everyday and continually make changes to better myself.
2: How does "Hi mate. We failed just then because you didn't have enough damage output or crowd control skills to stop the probes reaching the gate. If you like, I can give you some pointers on how to improve your build if you like? sound insulting?
3: Please read my next point because that comment assumes that I have no idea what it is like to be a pug.
4: Of course I use my own personal experience as a yard stick. I used to be a pug and used to make the same choices and have the attitude that I knew it all like many of them do. I was lucky to have a fleetie introduce me into DPS but even then I didn't progress beyond the first two channels. You know why? Because it was a hard pill for me to swallow when I was faced with the fact due to my desire to continually improve that I didn't know as much as I thought I did and what I knew what mostly wrong. Some people can't or won't admit that.
5: I PUG each PVE at least 3 times a day.
I surmise you have got caught up in the rhetoric of my post rather than its substance. I'm sorry that you can't see what I am trying to do here.
This is an interesting question. How is that someone could classify you as a "bad guy?" Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to generalize key components and make connections with other comparable elements and look for similarities. Let's take this quote and change it up a bit and see what we see.
I am rich and to many in this game I'm one of the bad guys. However, when I look back at what it what it took to get where I am I can't see how I can qualify as being "bad". Those who label me as bad usually come from the "I like to take life slow", "I like helping others", or my very own favourite "money isn't that important to me" camps.
Hmm...interesting. Let's continue with this experiment.
Yes. I'm starting to see a trend here that may lead to an answer to the question, "why do people see me as a bad guy?"
Let's take a look at what your suggestion for dealing with these undesirable elements to your advanced and elite community are.
Well, to continue with our theme...
I issue a challenge to everyone in the wealth channels or anyone that earns $100,000 dollars or higher to hang out with the common man then at the end pass or fail, mention something that would have improved (or passed) the quality of their lives and offer to help the members who were in the team.
I think the picture is starting to become a little clearer. Using the analogy of money as a comparable element to DPS we see a shared theme of arrogance, narcissism and over exaggerated self worth. As I know several players who have maximized their ships to great effect and are generally nice people, I propose the "bad guy" reputation is created by those who feel the rest of the world is wrong and needs fixing for someone not choosing to live your way.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to back to playing to have fun.
Holy ****! What the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is genuinely horrifying. Here I am saying I'm trying to help people improve which is something that I am choosing to do out of my game time for the betterment on the game itself. Have you noticed how empty the queues are? That's because a lot of people have retreated to private channels to form groups thus alienating players who can't do the harder stuff on their own. So what the hell is wrong with me trying to spread some knowledge to people?
Holy ****! What the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is genuinely horrifying. Here I am saying I'm trying to help people improve which is something that I am choosing to do out of my game time for the betterment on the game itself. Have you noticed how empty the queues are? That's because a lot of people have retreated to private channels to form groups thus alienating players who can't do the harder stuff on their own. So what the hell is wrong with me trying to spread some knowledge to people?
You're funny. And additionally proved my point in why attacking someones way is not the best path to helping them improve.
Holy ****! What the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is genuinely horrifying. Here I am saying I'm trying to help people improve which is something that I am choosing to do out of my game time for the betterment on the game itself. Have you noticed how empty the queues are? That's because a lot of people have retreated to private channels to form groups thus alienating players who can't do the harder stuff on their own. So what the hell is wrong with me trying to spread some knowledge to people?
While I am not at all interested in the DPS league (I'm a PvP'er first and foremost and keeping score against NPCs is boring to me) I do congratulate you on your effort.
It's doomed to failure though. Contrary to PvP'ers or DPS'ers some people are not competitive at all. That means they fly their ship their way and the rules of the game be damned. They will also get very angry if you A) suggest that there is room for improvement on their builds or flying style or show them that you are a lot better than they are at the game.
Of course the most heinous sin you could do is suggest that an ability should be tuned down because it's overpowered. Then you will see every last PvE'er that uses that ability rage against you because they do a little less damage and that means that they need change their builds.
You will be amazed how much people actually don't care about or don't care for improvement....
Advice is typically best given when asked for... Those who offer it without being asked are generally regarded in the way you feel some people regard you.
I try to avoid the premade channels... I just run PUGs and have an acceptable completion rate. I will run elite grounds (BHE, DRSE, NTTE) and ISA, sometimes CSA if I'm feeling lucky. I'm thinking maybe I fail 2 out of 10 times or so? I have an unreasonably low tolerance for drama as of late and PUGs simply run missions, there's no dramatizing what to do, how to do it, or how horrible some guy was the last time it was run. Not all random premades are like that but I've found more that have a little drama in them than the amount I fail PUGs.
I think you're on to something, just leave the free advice out of it. Be a strong player, and those who care to also be strong players will come to you for advice at which point it will be much more well received.
Advice is typically best given when asked for... Those who offer it without being asked are generally regarded in the way you feel some people regard you.
I respectfully disagree. Some people don't know they're doing poorly. People like snipey are doing them a favour by helping them get the most out of their ship and setup (just so long as the suggestion is non hostile and intended to help). What those players choose to do with that knowledge is up to them, but letting them know that they could optimize their build and giving them the opportunity to improve is being a good Samaritan.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
While I am not at all interested in the DPS league (I'm a PvP'er first and foremost and keeping score against NPCs is boring to me) I do congratulate you on your effort.
It's doomed to failure though. Contrary to PvP'ers or DPS'ers some people are not competitive at all. That means they fly their ship their way and the rules of the game be damned. They will also get very angry if you A) suggest that there is room for improvement on their builds or flying style or show them that you are a lot better than they are at the game.
Of course the most heinous sin you could do is suggest that an ability should be tuned down because it's overpowered. Then you will see every last PvE'er that uses that ability rage against you because they do a little less damage and that means that they need change their builds.
Anyways, good luck!
Thank you for your support mate and for taking the time out of your entertainment time to show it. :-)
Advice is typically best given when asked for... Those who offer it without being asked are generally regarded in the way you feel some people regard you.
I try to avoid the premade channels... I just run PUGs and have an acceptable completion rate. I will run elite grounds (BHE, DRSE, NTTE) and ISA, sometimes CSA if I'm feeling lucky. I'm thinking maybe I fail 2 out of 10 times or so? I have an unreasonably low tolerance for drama as of late and PUGs simply run missions, there's no dramatizing what to do, how to do it, or how horrible some guy was the last time it was run. Not all random premades are like that but I've found more that have a little drama in them than the amount I fail PUGs.
I think you're on to something, just leave the free advice out of it. Be a strong player, and those who care to also be strong players will come to you for advice at which point it will be much more well received.
Thank you for giving me your feedback, sir. I respect how you experience STO. I should have probably said that I don't force my advice yet ask if they would like to receive any. I always ask. But I will consider what you have said here.
I respectfully disagree. Some people don't know they're doing poorly. People like snipey are doing them a favour by helping them get the most out of their ship and setup (just so long as the suggestion is non hostile and intended to help). What those players choose to do with that knowledge is up to them, but letting them know that they could optimize their build and giving them the opportunity to improve is being a good Samaritan.
Thank you, Stardestroyer :-) I can assure you my attempts are non-hostile and I always ask if they would like to receive it.
Perhaps instead of putting out a call for missionaries to start a crusade of proselytizing to the masses...instead drop a link to a thread or a post that could act as an information desk to a repository of information one might find helpful. "Thanks for the run, everybody - if anybody's interested in more info about the game and all the awesome potential out there, check out {insert link}." There are a bunch of damaged and fragile egos that might see anything but that as somebody having a savior complex trying to drag them off to be saved from the horrors of whatever they're doing...and it just won't go well. Making the information available for them to peruse if they like, well - the folks that want it will have access to it, and you won't find yourself developing a bad reputation amongst the folks that might have enjoyed the help because of getting caught up in arguments with folks having some sort of PTSD moment from where somebody else assaulted them for whatever they were doing.
Perhaps instead of putting out a call for missionaries to start a crusade of proselytizing to the masses...instead drop a link to a thread or a post that could act as an information desk to a repository of information one might find helpful. "Thanks for the run, everybody - if anybody's interested in more info about the game and all the awesome potential out there, check out {insert link}." There are a bunch of damaged and fragile egos that might see anything but that as somebody having a savior complex trying to drag them off to be saved from the horrors of whatever they're doing...and it just won't go well. Making the information available for them to peruse if they like, well - the folks that want it will have access to it, and you won't find yourself developing a bad reputation amongst the folks that might have enjoyed the help because of getting caught up in arguments with folks having some sort of PTSD moment from where somebody else assaulted them for whatever they were doing.
I do that sometimes.. Ryan's videos mostly.. but I stopped because they didn't ask for it.. I always ask if they would like some help.
DPS'ers bad folks?
Cow dump.
The tank should tank, that's his job.
While taking aggro, the DPS should kill it.
That would be a normal way to function.
If so called tanks don't get it, they should take lessons in basic tactics.
That's the problem: tanks don't take aggro. NPCs attack whoever's attacking them the most. If a tank that gets 10 dps but has a million heals fires its heart out, it won't be hit and it won't die and the player will think they did an awesome job.
Basically they do nothing to achieve mission objectives and everyone else gets attacked 25% more. Pretty much the definition of deadweight.
Overall, I think giving people suggestions is perfectly fine, but unsolicited advice usually will end with obscenities. Beyond just general raising of awareness, I'm afraid there's little one can do.
There's also another aspect to this, and that's Cryptic's design. The issue is that Cryptic provides more options to playing the game than is necessary to complete content. As an analogy, they give you a hammer, a screwdriver, and a wrench, and all the problems they present you in the game are nails. A hammer is therefore optimal, but you can still do it w/ the other tools although painfully. However, the fact that those options are viable gives those that are more comfortable with screwdrivers and wrenches reason to stay with what they feel like playing. The typical response to "You should use a hammer for nails." is met w/ responses like "I can still hit the nail with my favorite tool" reinforced with "Well, Cryptic let me use my favorite tool so I'm justified in using it".
Some people prioritize efficiency, and others prioritize sentiment. However, even if someone not prioritizing efficiency creates a handicap for a team, it's difficult to argue against it or even change it. It's selfish sure, but to those people, it doesn't matter. Besides, we all have our sentiments placed somewhere, and this is it for those people.
I think the main thing I would take away from this mess is that Cryptic needs to provide content that requires those screwdrivers and wrenches. Those who prioritize efficiency wouldn't mind as they would just adapt to the new environment, and those who love their specific tool have content where they feel more welcome.
I do that sometimes.. Ryan's videos mostly.. but I stopped because they didn't ask for it.. I always ask if they would like some help.
Do you ask specific individuals or is it just a general statement?
Jerry (via PM): Hey Tom, would you like some help?
Tom (via PM): Why? What do you think I'm doing wrong? I'm so sick of people like you!
Jerry: Thanks for the run, guys - would anybody like some help with their builds or what they're doing?
Tom: Why? What do you think we're doing wrong? I'm so sick of people like you!
It's just a damn tricky path to try to walk. Cause odds are, for every person that's just genuinely trying to help folks out doing whatever they're trying to do...they've probably come across a handful of folks that have called them nubs and told them to learn to play without actually offering any help.
Meh, it just gets old at times...and...have to wonder how many of those folks calling them noobs maybe started out trying to be more helpful, the negative responses they got, led to them calling the folks scrubs in the end.
It's a vicious cycle...it's a potentially dark path.
As it stands now, imho, there is more than enough information out there for anybody to find that could help them with whatever...and if they've got more questions, there are countless folks that will answer stuff for them.
Guess I'm just tired of all the TRIBBLE from folks with their damaged/fragile egos having PTSD moments and getting caught up in arguments with them. They're not worth the time, and personally for me it's not even worth the risk.
So it's a TRIBBLE everybody, the info's there, and if they've got questions they can ask...
...or I guess it's actually more a case of being in the process of moving to another game so as not to have to deal with the nonsense here - something that I've never experienced to this degree in playing MMOs since '97.
I don't want to become a l2p nubz guy...and well, I've already gotten into some arguments with enough individuals, I can see making that jump from individuals to just blasting groups not far off in the future.
So yeah, I wish you luck with your endeavor there of trying to create more positive experiences for folks in the game...and wish you luck in keeping that in mind - not succumbing to the miasma that's growing in this game.
I respectfully disagree. Some people don't know they're doing poorly.
Hm... so you assume if a player is doing poorly he would appreciate someone pointing that fact out and offering some good advice on how to improve?
I think it's easy to look at this from a personal point of view, where if you or I were doing something wrong we'd appreciate a friendly heads up. Not everyone sees it that way as evidenced by the OPs surprise at how his advice is sometimes received.
People who want to improve will, those who don't want to improve won't. I think there is a very, very narrow group of people who would be willing to improve but are clueless to the fact they need improvement. It's this latter group which I feel the OP is trying to target. While I'm sure we can debate just how many people comprise that group, it's safe to say that the majority of people in PUGs don't fit that demographic. None I've ran into anyway...
I still maintain the best way to show proficiency is through action, not advice. While I can see where the OP wants to help improve the game by educating weaker players on how to improve themselves, he's really not going to do anything but frustrate himself and those he's trying to help.
If the OP wants to be effective, he should try to target players who actually want to improve rather than random people he bumps into in PUGs. Perhaps an "Elite Queue Bootcamp" would
be beneficial?
Personally I set a goal of getting 30k out of my FACR, and using DPS Channel settings in CLR I'm at 20k, using default parser settings I'm at 30k. It was trivial to find out how to bump it up from my previous 6-8k DPS. I dropped my two torps, my cloak mines, went all beams. It's not a unique build but it's more effective. I had to trade personalization for effectiveness, and I think that is one of the biggest issues people have with the DPS race. You can pick your favorite ship but your effectiveness is limited to some fairly specific builds for that ship.
Oh dear, there's that inability to agree to disagree thing coming up again.
Newsflash. No-one plays the game like you. High DPS is not a requirement for the majority of the content - actually knowing what you are doing will suffice - and if you don't like it, don't fly with them.
You leave them alone, and they'll leave you alone. You sound like those people who grab you in the street to have a discussion with you about God.
Wow... I want to say you are another one that confirms my theory but I won't since you seem to have put some thought into your response. Please allow me to respond.
In answer to:
1: I'm not actually, having played all careers extensively and have beaten every queue in the game multiple times, I have observed what builds work where. I do PVP a lot and am familiar with what works in both the PVE and PVP sphere.. do I say I'm an expert? No I'm not... I'm far from it actually... and when it comes to people like RyanSTO I am not ashamed to admit I don't know nearly half of what he does. But I learn more and more everyday and continually make changes to better myself.
2: How does "Hi mate. We failed just then because you didn't have enough damage output or crowd control skills to stop the probes reaching the gate. If you like, I can give you some pointers on how to improve your build if you like? sound insulting?
3: Please read my next point because that comment assumes that I have no idea what it is like to be a pug.
4: Of course I use my own personal experience as a yard stick. I used to be a pug and used to make the same choices and have the attitude that I knew it all like many of them do. I was lucky to have a fleetie introduce me into DPS but even then I didn't progress beyond the first two channels. You know why? Because it was a hard pill for me to swallow when I was faced with the fact due to my desire to continually improve that I didn't know as much as I thought I did and what I knew what mostly wrong. Some people can't or won't admit that.
5: I PUG each PVE at least 3 times a day.
I surmise you have got caught up in the rhetoric of my post rather than its substance. I'm sorry that you can't see what I am trying to do here.
1 Appeal to authority, now that aside I am not saying you're not as good as you say you are what I am saying is making such claims is excessive because you can not have so much information about so many people...unless they all come and confess to you or you have some metrics to back-up those claims. I'm reffering to your claim: "Most PUGs think they are playing the game perfectly already and your offer to help them improve is an insult or most PUGs don't care about their random team mates and how their performance impacts on them"
2 Some people tend to find unsolicited intrusive advice from random people as being insulting. People when are accused of something (being the reason for the fail of the pug) they tend to react in one of 3 ways: 1 aggressive 2 defensive 3 they accept the accusation and try to fix things.
4 Not everyone is you. The fact that you used to think in a certain way doesn't imply that people will share your perspectives. The problem with personal opinion/experience it's that it is inherently subjective and people do make mistakes. Your experience may or may not be representative for the pugs you been in.
Your personal experience is not the same thing as Cryptic coming out with "metrics" and saying 50% of the pugs fail because of x.
Personal opinions != Facts.
"Wow... I want to say you are another one that confirms my theory but I won't since you seem to have put some thought into your response. Please allow me to respond. "
The fact that I agree or disagree with you does not validate or invalidate your claims.
A statement in not considered to be true by the numbers of fans supporting it.
Argumentum Ad populum
"I surmise you have got caught up in the rhetoric of my post rather than its substance. I'm sorry that you can't see what I am trying to do here"
I got caught up in the fact that you provided only a personal opinion and not facts.
I issue a challenge to everyone in the DPS channels or anyone that does 10k DPS or higher to PUG every space match in the queue and then at the end pass or fail, mention something that would have improved (or passed) the match and offer to help the members who were in the team. Do it by pm if you have to as many warp out without saying gg (meaning good game by the way). If my experience is anything to go by and I do this quite regularly you will be lucky if you get any response at all and even luckier if 1-2 to respond accepting help. Seriously try it, you will be amazed how much people actually don't care about or don't care for improvement....
I've been trying this for several months off and on, with only 2 people actually showing any interest in improving their play, ship, etc. Yeh, the number that don't give a hoot, or have a terribly misguided sense of how to play certain STFs is astounding and depressing at the same time.
I am a DPS'er and to many in this game I'm one of the bad guys. However, when I look back at what it what it took to get where I am I can't see how I can qualify as being "bad". Those who label me as bad usually come from the "I like to tank", "I'm a sci/healer", I'm a team player or my very own favourite "I play to have fun" camps.
And before I read anything else here, I knew you would follow with scornful remarks towards those people. Amirite?!
Let's quickly touch on two of these - "I like to tank" - a tank that does TRIBBLE DPS because it is choked full of heals and defensive ability and doesn't die is held in high regard by these players. DPS isn't important because they didn't die and that makes them the best player in the advanced or elite pve they just did!
Lke I said, a true 'tank' has nothing to do with weaker players who just want to stay alive! A true tank's role is to draw aggro. A true tanker is specced/geared for [+Threat], so as to take the heat for others, and him-/herself benefit in the process of this aggro (many yummie targets to land your BFAW on). A R-TBR Science vessel with 5x [+Threat] plasma doping consoles will do nicely too. :P
No tankers, if you aren't contributing to your share of the DPS your builds aren't making it up to the team in other ways.
See my comment above.
There are simply other things than doing raw DPS yourself. Like flying a beta-stacking Recluse (with APB3 yourself, and APB3 for your Elite pets), so that *others* may do more DPS. N'Mey, for instance, a pretty well-respected entity, flies a wicked Recluse. When he shows up in a run I'm in too, my own DPS literally goes up by 10k! He's beta-stacking the TRIBBLE out of everything, so I, and others, can kill stuff a lot better! His is a highly supportive role, and he's not there purely to boost his own DPS (I think he's in 75k, though).
You're in 75k too, btw, aren't you?! You should really already know all these things.
Comments
I know... I mean I knew it would bring people like him out of the wood work but to be the very first response.... they are like magnets to this sort of stuff, aren't they?
Woah... were you reading a different post to what I wrote? I would like some examples of this "holier than thou attitude" please. To make my point? I was asking for help to either prove or disprove my assertions. Would someone who is holier than thou or elitist as you put it even do something like that? They would preach and wouldn't care about anyone else opinion! i could easily retort by saying you are showing the qualities that you accuse me of displaying but I won't. I don't want this thread to descend into the two sides going at it based on comments such as these.
If you responded like the first guy did, that would get a harsh response. But I seriously if you ask anybody I have recently helped from the pug world, they would disagree with what you said to me just now...
@snipey47a - friend me and I will help you with your build if you like, mate.
This is an interesting question. How is that someone could classify you as a "bad guy?" Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to generalize key components and make connections with other comparable elements and look for similarities. Let's take this quote and change it up a bit and see what we see.
I am rich and to many in this game I'm one of the bad guys. However, when I look back at what it what it took to get where I am I can't see how I can qualify as being "bad". Those who label me as bad usually come from the "I like to take life slow", "I like helping others", or my very own favourite "money isn't that important to me" camps.
Hmm...interesting. Let's continue with this experiment.
Yes. I'm starting to see a trend here that may lead to an answer to the question, "why do people see me as a bad guy?"
Let's take a look at what your suggestion for dealing with these undesirable elements to your advanced and elite community are.
Well, to continue with our theme...
I issue a challenge to everyone in the wealth channels or anyone that earns $100,000 dollars or higher to hang out with the common man then at the end pass or fail, mention something that would have improved (or passed) the quality of their lives and offer to help the members who were in the team.
I think the picture is starting to become a little clearer. Using the analogy of money as a comparable element to DPS we see a shared theme of arrogance, narcissism and over exaggerated self worth. As I know several players who have maximized their ships to great effect and are generally nice people, I propose the "bad guy" reputation is created by those who feel the rest of the world is wrong and needs fixing for someone not choosing to live your way.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to back to playing to have fun.
Wow... I want to say you are another one that confirms my theory but I won't since you seem to have put some thought into your response. Please allow me to respond.
In answer to:
1: I'm not actually, having played all careers extensively and have beaten every queue in the game multiple times, I have observed what builds work where. I do PVP a lot and am familiar with what works in both the PVE and PVP sphere.. do I say I'm an expert? No I'm not... I'm far from it actually... and when it comes to people like RyanSTO I am not ashamed to admit I don't know nearly half of what he does. But I learn more and more everyday and continually make changes to better myself.
2: How does "Hi mate. We failed just then because you didn't have enough damage output or crowd control skills to stop the probes reaching the gate. If you like, I can give you some pointers on how to improve your build if you like? sound insulting?
3: Please read my next point because that comment assumes that I have no idea what it is like to be a pug.
4: Of course I use my own personal experience as a yard stick. I used to be a pug and used to make the same choices and have the attitude that I knew it all like many of them do. I was lucky to have a fleetie introduce me into DPS but even then I didn't progress beyond the first two channels. You know why? Because it was a hard pill for me to swallow when I was faced with the fact due to my desire to continually improve that I didn't know as much as I thought I did and what I knew what mostly wrong. Some people can't or won't admit that.
5: I PUG each PVE at least 3 times a day.
I surmise you have got caught up in the rhetoric of my post rather than its substance. I'm sorry that you can't see what I am trying to do here.
Holy ****! What the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is genuinely horrifying. Here I am saying I'm trying to help people improve which is something that I am choosing to do out of my game time for the betterment on the game itself. Have you noticed how empty the queues are? That's because a lot of people have retreated to private channels to form groups thus alienating players who can't do the harder stuff on their own. So what the hell is wrong with me trying to spread some knowledge to people?
You're funny. And additionally proved my point in why attacking someones way is not the best path to helping them improve.
While I am not at all interested in the DPS league (I'm a PvP'er first and foremost and keeping score against NPCs is boring to me) I do congratulate you on your effort.
It's doomed to failure though. Contrary to PvP'ers or DPS'ers some people are not competitive at all. That means they fly their ship their way and the rules of the game be damned. They will also get very angry if you A) suggest that there is room for improvement on their builds or flying style or
Of course the most heinous sin you could do is suggest that an ability should be tuned down because it's overpowered. Then you will see every last PvE'er that uses that ability rage against you because they do a little less damage and that means that they need change their builds.
Anyways, good luck!
As long as I can complete PvE/story content, solo, on normal, I'm content.
I do the following:
1. Doff.
2. ground combat, a lot of ground combat.
3. Accolade gathering.
4. Fleet dailies.
5. Glued to the exchange when not busy.
Advice is typically best given when asked for... Those who offer it without being asked are generally regarded in the way you feel some people regard you.
I try to avoid the premade channels... I just run PUGs and have an acceptable completion rate. I will run elite grounds (BHE, DRSE, NTTE) and ISA, sometimes CSA if I'm feeling lucky. I'm thinking maybe I fail 2 out of 10 times or so? I have an unreasonably low tolerance for drama as of late and PUGs simply run missions, there's no dramatizing what to do, how to do it, or how horrible some guy was the last time it was run. Not all random premades are like that but I've found more that have a little drama in them than the amount I fail PUGs.
I think you're on to something, just leave the free advice out of it. Be a strong player, and those who care to also be strong players will come to you for advice at which point it will be much more well received.
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
I respectfully disagree. Some people don't know they're doing poorly. People like snipey are doing them a favour by helping them get the most out of their ship and setup (just so long as the suggestion is non hostile and intended to help). What those players choose to do with that knowledge is up to them, but letting them know that they could optimize their build and giving them the opportunity to improve is being a good Samaritan.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
And yet you didn't respond to a single question, sir.
Thank you for your support mate and for taking the time out of your entertainment time to show it. :-)
I respect how you choose to experience STO, sir, and that you are content to play normal queues only. Thank you for pitching in with a response :-)
The normal queues are the issue here though. It is the advanced/elite ones at the heart of this matter.
Thank you for giving me your feedback, sir. I respect how you experience STO. I should have probably said that I don't force my advice yet ask if they would like to receive any. I always ask. But I will consider what you have said here.
Thank you, Stardestroyer :-) I can assure you my attempts are non-hostile and I always ask if they would like to receive it.
I do that sometimes.. Ryan's videos mostly.. but I stopped because they didn't ask for it.. I always ask if they would like some help.
That's the problem: tanks don't take aggro. NPCs attack whoever's attacking them the most. If a tank that gets 10 dps but has a million heals fires its heart out, it won't be hit and it won't die and the player will think they did an awesome job.
Basically they do nothing to achieve mission objectives and everyone else gets attacked 25% more. Pretty much the definition of deadweight.
There's also another aspect to this, and that's Cryptic's design. The issue is that Cryptic provides more options to playing the game than is necessary to complete content. As an analogy, they give you a hammer, a screwdriver, and a wrench, and all the problems they present you in the game are nails. A hammer is therefore optimal, but you can still do it w/ the other tools although painfully. However, the fact that those options are viable gives those that are more comfortable with screwdrivers and wrenches reason to stay with what they feel like playing. The typical response to "You should use a hammer for nails." is met w/ responses like "I can still hit the nail with my favorite tool" reinforced with "Well, Cryptic let me use my favorite tool so I'm justified in using it".
Some people prioritize efficiency, and others prioritize sentiment. However, even if someone not prioritizing efficiency creates a handicap for a team, it's difficult to argue against it or even change it. It's selfish sure, but to those people, it doesn't matter. Besides, we all have our sentiments placed somewhere, and this is it for those people.
I think the main thing I would take away from this mess is that Cryptic needs to provide content that requires those screwdrivers and wrenches. Those who prioritize efficiency wouldn't mind as they would just adapt to the new environment, and those who love their specific tool have content where they feel more welcome.
Do you ask specific individuals or is it just a general statement?
Jerry (via PM): Hey Tom, would you like some help?
Tom (via PM): Why? What do you think I'm doing wrong? I'm so sick of people like you!
Jerry: Thanks for the run, guys - would anybody like some help with their builds or what they're doing?
Tom: Why? What do you think we're doing wrong? I'm so sick of people like you!
It's just a damn tricky path to try to walk. Cause odds are, for every person that's just genuinely trying to help folks out doing whatever they're trying to do...they've probably come across a handful of folks that have called them nubs and told them to learn to play without actually offering any help.
Meh, it just gets old at times...and...have to wonder how many of those folks calling them noobs maybe started out trying to be more helpful, the negative responses they got, led to them calling the folks scrubs in the end.
It's a vicious cycle...it's a potentially dark path.
As it stands now, imho, there is more than enough information out there for anybody to find that could help them with whatever...and if they've got more questions, there are countless folks that will answer stuff for them.
Guess I'm just tired of all the TRIBBLE from folks with their damaged/fragile egos having PTSD moments and getting caught up in arguments with them. They're not worth the time, and personally for me it's not even worth the risk.
So it's a TRIBBLE everybody, the info's there, and if they've got questions they can ask...
...or I guess it's actually more a case of being in the process of moving to another game so as not to have to deal with the nonsense here - something that I've never experienced to this degree in playing MMOs since '97.
I don't want to become a l2p nubz guy...and well, I've already gotten into some arguments with enough individuals, I can see making that jump from individuals to just blasting groups not far off in the future.
So yeah, I wish you luck with your endeavor there of trying to create more positive experiences for folks in the game...and wish you luck in keeping that in mind - not succumbing to the miasma that's growing in this game.
Hm... so you assume if a player is doing poorly he would appreciate someone pointing that fact out and offering some good advice on how to improve?
I think it's easy to look at this from a personal point of view, where if you or I were doing something wrong we'd appreciate a friendly heads up. Not everyone sees it that way as evidenced by the OPs surprise at how his advice is sometimes received.
People who want to improve will, those who don't want to improve won't. I think there is a very, very narrow group of people who would be willing to improve but are clueless to the fact they need improvement. It's this latter group which I feel the OP is trying to target. While I'm sure we can debate just how many people comprise that group, it's safe to say that the majority of people in PUGs don't fit that demographic. None I've ran into anyway...
I still maintain the best way to show proficiency is through action, not advice. While I can see where the OP wants to help improve the game by educating weaker players on how to improve themselves, he's really not going to do anything but frustrate himself and those he's trying to help.
If the OP wants to be effective, he should try to target players who actually want to improve rather than random people he bumps into in PUGs. Perhaps an "Elite Queue Bootcamp" would
be beneficial?
Personally I set a goal of getting 30k out of my FACR, and using DPS Channel settings in CLR I'm at 20k, using default parser settings I'm at 30k. It was trivial to find out how to bump it up from my previous 6-8k DPS. I dropped my two torps, my cloak mines, went all beams. It's not a unique build but it's more effective. I had to trade personalization for effectiveness, and I think that is one of the biggest issues people have with the DPS race. You can pick your favorite ship but your effectiveness is limited to some fairly specific builds for that ship.
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
Newsflash. No-one plays the game like you. High DPS is not a requirement for the majority of the content - actually knowing what you are doing will suffice - and if you don't like it, don't fly with them.
You leave them alone, and they'll leave you alone. You sound like those people who grab you in the street to have a discussion with you about God.
1 Appeal to authority, now that aside I am not saying you're not as good as you say you are what I am saying is making such claims is excessive because you can not have so much information about so many people...unless they all come and confess to you or you have some metrics to back-up those claims. I'm reffering to your claim: "Most PUGs think they are playing the game perfectly already and your offer to help them improve is an insult or most PUGs don't care about their random team mates and how their performance impacts on them"
2 Some people tend to find unsolicited intrusive advice from random people as being insulting. People when are accused of something (being the reason for the fail of the pug) they tend to react in one of 3 ways: 1 aggressive 2 defensive 3 they accept the accusation and try to fix things.
4 Not everyone is you. The fact that you used to think in a certain way doesn't imply that people will share your perspectives. The problem with personal opinion/experience it's that it is inherently subjective and people do make mistakes. Your experience may or may not be representative for the pugs you been in.
Your personal experience is not the same thing as Cryptic coming out with "metrics" and saying 50% of the pugs fail because of x.
Personal opinions != Facts.
"Wow... I want to say you are another one that confirms my theory but I won't since you seem to have put some thought into your response. Please allow me to respond. "
The fact that I agree or disagree with you does not validate or invalidate your claims.
A statement in not considered to be true by the numbers of fans supporting it.
Argumentum Ad populum
"I surmise you have got caught up in the rhetoric of my post rather than its substance. I'm sorry that you can't see what I am trying to do here"
I got caught up in the fact that you provided only a personal opinion and not facts.
No real tankers......
No is all inclusive. How do you define a "real tanker" in STO?
Don't know how to send heals....
Keybinds, F1 through F4 for teammates 1 through 4.
I've been trying this for several months off and on, with only 2 people actually showing any interest in improving their play, ship, etc. Yeh, the number that don't give a hoot, or have a terribly misguided sense of how to play certain STFs is astounding and depressing at the same time.
And before I read anything else here, I knew you would follow with scornful remarks towards those people. Amirite?!
Lke I said, a true 'tank' has nothing to do with weaker players who just want to stay alive! A true tank's role is to draw aggro. A true tanker is specced/geared for [+Threat], so as to take the heat for others, and him-/herself benefit in the process of this aggro (many yummie targets to land your BFAW on). A R-TBR Science vessel with 5x [+Threat] plasma doping consoles will do nicely too. :P
See my comment above.
There are simply other things than doing raw DPS yourself. Like flying a beta-stacking Recluse (with APB3 yourself, and APB3 for your Elite pets), so that *others* may do more DPS. N'Mey, for instance, a pretty well-respected entity, flies a wicked Recluse. When he shows up in a run I'm in too, my own DPS literally goes up by 10k! He's beta-stacking the TRIBBLE out of everything, so I, and others, can kill stuff a lot better! His is a highly supportive role, and he's not there purely to boost his own DPS (I think he's in 75k, though).
You're in 75k too, btw, aren't you?! You should really already know all these things.