There are a lot of misconceptions about tanking in this thread. So, to answer a lot of the statements that have been made, I offer the following points:
Yes, tanks who can actually do their job are beneficial in PvE. So long as you're playing with the right teammates for your level (not everyone should expect to pull aggro off of people doing 75k+, just like not everyone should expect to do 75k+), your team will be the better for your presence.
Yes, there are people who do 10 dps and fail at holding aggro. These are 'turtles', not tanks. This is a significant problem.
Yes, actual tanks exist. Notable examples include myself, Synthia Suicide, and Dodye, off of the top of my head, that I have met and conversed with significantly - I believe there are others out there. We are capable of pulling aggro off of high dps players (and low-dps players) consistently, significantly, and while staying alive. I personally challenge anyone who does not believe this to fly in a match with me, and if the match itself doesn't convince you, look at the combatlog. (Note - being unable to aggro warp core breaches does not disqualify me from being a tank).
Yes, a measure of dps - not an unattainable one, but a reasonable measure of dps is needed to pull aggro.
Contrary to what some people in here think, Embassy consoles with +Th on them do have a noticeable impact on your threat generation, as does starship threat control.
Also contrary to what some people think, you do not have to be doing even half the dps that your dps'er is doing to hold aggro; I've actually managed to do so in a ship doing less than 1/4th what he dps'er was doing.
The job of the tank, at a fundamental level, is to ensure that aggro stays off of the other players. It is not to cross-heal (if they're not doing their job well enough, this may be necessary, but this is not their job), and it is not innately to kill things (though they do need some dps to pull aggro). Their job is simply to keep aggro off of the other players.
This means that if warp shadows weren't bugged, they would be a fantastic tool. Whatever you do to pull aggro and live through it is legitimate. In theory, if you could do 100 dps and pull aggro off of the entire team, provided you had dps'ers who were doing more than 1/5th the bare dps required to not fail (which should be the job of the dps'er), that would be fine. In reality, threat multipliers aren't nearly that high, and you will have to do dps.
As a general rule of thumb, a tank wishing to tank in a pug will want around 7k, someone in a good fleet will want to be in the 10-20k range, and someone wishing to pull aggro off of the dps-channel members want need to pull at least half of the dps that their teammates are qualified for, simply to to run run speed, the number of high-performing teammates, and variance between runs. Note that all of those should be sufficient to complete the run, even if they warp in with 4 other tanks (ha) following the same guideline, unless you're trying to pug elite queues.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
And yet you didn't respond to a single question, sir.
Quite right.
Holy ****! What the hell is wrong with you? Your attitude is genuinely horrifying. Here I am saying I'm trying to help people improve which is something that I am choosing to do out of my game time for the betterment on the game itself. Have you noticed how empty the queues are? That's because a lot of people have retreated to private channels to form groups thus alienating players who can't do the harder stuff on their own. So what the hell is wrong with me trying to spread some knowledge to people?
In all seriousness, pure player skill only goes so far. You can't discount the impact of effective gear and while many will claim it's secondary to personal ability, gear pushed my FACR from say avg. 5k DPS to ~15K DPS... I didn't suddenly gain 3 times more personal ability at playing the game, I just invested in gear.
I did the following as a rough example in another thread...just looking at a few things and leaving the rest to the imagination for the differences it could make.
Let's say we keep Player B at the initial gearing, but we have them average 75 Weapon Power, engaged 80% of the time, and they're generally attacking from 5km.
18262.6752 DPS vs. 2782.88384 DPS...when both started at 591.13472 DPS and got the same upgrades.
Very rough/basic math - not precise in the least...but a starting point.
Now work in how Player A and Player B might work their buffs/debuffs and the effect that will have on their DPS.
Now add in a team with how the team works their buffs/debuffs and the effect that will have on their DPS.
That gap between Player A and Player B can end up being huge...kind of like what we see in the game.
Could have Player A not even doing 5-10% of what Player B is doing, both having the same gear, but there being a skill and team difference going on. Player B could fly with far worse gear and still massively outperform Player A.
It's why I sometimes make the joke about they could put me in one of Ryan's builds and give Ryan a rebreather and a broken spork...and he'd just smoke me something silly with what he could do compared to the /facepalm I'd be.
It's just the way all the underlying mechanics work...can throw all the resources into gear upgrades that I want, but until I actually think about flying better instead of going wheeee...and decide to fly with some premade group instead of just pugging it...not going to get anywhere near what they do.
Course, doing even 10% of what those guys do is overkill for the content we've got...so I just muddle around doing what I do...wheeeee!
I did the following as a rough example in another thread...just looking at a few things and leaving the rest to the imagination for the differences it could make.
This is really great math. My personal summary of that would be this:
Gear upgrades will have roughly the same % difference for everyone.
But going from 100% of 2k dps to 200% of 2k dps isn't nearly as significant overall as going from 100% of 50k dps to 110% of 50k dps.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
I believe that there needs to be some perspective on what's really going on
Ok ...
I'm a team player or my very own favourite "I play to have fun" camps.
Ahh , I get it -- nothing's changed , still large and in charge and full of contempt toward the less deserving .
Therefore to prove my point, I issue a challenge to everyone in the DPS channels
(snip)
Seriously try it, you will be amazed how much people actually don't care about or don't care for improvement....
Ok , so you just issued a challenge while at the very same time you assured those you've challenged that they will have a horrible time ... , not once but twice :
I urge people to take up this challenge, you will be shocked at how even your attempts to make contact are treated.
Sigh ... .
Heh ... , despite the temptation I stayed out of the last DPS video debacle (it didn't need me to point out what was wrong with it) , but I was very tempted to take one pretty ironic sentence from "jarvisandalfred" and spin it toward the DPS crowd , especially since your challenge involved them coming out of their comfort zone in the sequestered DPS channels :
Sorry buddy , but I think you've got things mixed up a bit . It's not "the scrubs" or the team players or the "I play to have fun" ppl who shun you , it's the other way around , and dismantling the DPS channels would save you from having to go on a case by case basis to help people , like this challenge proposes .
... not that I expect that to happen of course , but it's always more fun to dream of a less divided fandom ...
How are you NOT trolling other players here? You say you want to help, but your presumption is that nobody wants it. You're also being very negative about other people's playstyles and about PUG's in general. And you flat out state that anyone who isn't building for maximum DPS is not only doing something wrong, they're also trolls. By issuing a challenge, aren't you really trying to manipulate people into doing what you want them to do?
Would you like to give me any valid reasons why this thread shouldn't be closed?
If you're really out to help, why wouldn't you be a little nicer about it?
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
How are you NOT trolling other players here? You say you want to help, but your presumption is that nobody wants it. You're also being very negative about other people's playstyles and about PUG's in general. And you flat out state that anyone who isn't building for maximum DPS is not only doing something wrong, they're also trolls. By issuing a challenge, aren't you really trying to manipulate people into doing what you want them to do?
Would you like to give me any valid reasons why this thread shouldn't be closed?
If you're really out to help, why wouldn't you be a little nicer about it?
I am not the OP.
I did not get the vibe that the OP was trolling, but presenting is viewpoint on the state of the game in regards to PVE, and then asked people to go out and confirm for themeselves his experience.
Now, plasmanugget, he seems to be trolling this discussion and his comments are less than useful, helpful, or polite.
Personally, this game seems to me to have gone deep towards DPSing as the means to complete Advanced and Elite queues. That is just a fact. I am not saying that Tanking and Healing cannot be useful or helpful. But they are definately not the MOST EFFECTIVE and EFFICIENT manner to complete those queues. (The caps are for emphasis only)
Myself, I am not at 10K DPS yet. I keep trying to figure out how to up that, but I am pretty much at the limit of my gearing of stuff and traits. SO it has to be related to my skill as a player. And that may be a hump I will never quite get past. I am not sure yet.
OP, while I agree with most of what you say, you discount the fact that some players, while taking the advice, just can't seem to get the rotation down to use the skills efficiently enough to get to those higher DPS levels.
How does "Hi mate. We failed just then because you didn't have enough damage output or crowd control skills to stop the probes reaching the gate. If you like, I can give you some pointers on how to improve your build if you like? sound insulting?
"WE failed... Because YOU..." This is not a statement that reflects leadership nor team work. "WE failed because WE didn't\couldn't..." assumes some responsibility for the failure rather than placing it solely on that one person EVEN if it's accurate. This is a game. Most of us still play it to have fun. Losing is for the most part "not fun" and being told that out of 5 people you are the one that made 4 other people not have fun is ~4x less fun than losing. Regardless of your intention, your phrasing is less than welcoming. If you'd like I can give you some pointers on empathizing with people that have different aspirations and goals than you.
I've been trying this for several months off and on, with only 2 people actually showing any interest in improving their play, ship, etc. Yeh, the number that don't give a hoot, or have a terribly misguided sense of how to play certain STFs is astounding and depressing at the same time.
Its actually great. I find this amazing, that in fact, even after Cryptic TRIBBLE up ppl with DR changes, they still stayed and enjoy themselves and playing their game in a fun way.
Yes, there are people who do 10 dps and fail at holding aggro. These are 'turtles', not tanks. This is a significant problem.
Yes, actual tanks exist. Notable examples include myself, Synthia Suicide, and Dodye, off of the top of my head, that I have met and conversed with significantly - I believe there are others out there. We are capable of pulling aggro off of high dps players (and low-dps players) consistently, significantly, and while staying alive. I personally challenge anyone who does not believe this to fly in a match with me, and if the match itself doesn't convince you, look at the combatlog. (Note - being unable to aggro warp core breaches does not disqualify me from being a tank).
Yes, a measure of dps - not an unattainable one, but a reasonable measure of dps is needed to pull aggro.
And again you guys are defending this stupid [Threat] aggro mechanic, wich doesnt even work well in PvP. There is no real aggro/taunt skill, wich could even lock the enemies on you. Alot of games, I would say the majority, have that and trinity, including tanks, work. Ohh, you and a few "specialists" dont like it... thats another story.
So here is the thing. Improving players should never be the job of random teammates you see for 10 minutes and never again. There is simply no benefit there.
This job belongs to friends and fleet members.
Ofcourse a player has to ask for help, but this really should be a part of the social circle that player is part of.
This reminds me of the time when a random douche rage-quit BDN and reported me because I had a single minor shield systems injury on my ship that resulted in a loss of one lonely little shield power point. Seriously. The PMs started the moment after we'd warped in.
Or when a fleetmate in a beamboating AP Scimi told me that I "shouldn't use" DHCs on my Ty'Gokor after an ISA where I'd parsed for 12.5k DPS with said DHCs without any vuln. locators (because they're super expensive) and a bunch of ship weapons that were still at Mk XII (all VR, though (I mean, I'm not an animal)).
So what I'm left wondering is where the line goes. At what point am I no longer considered worthless? You said 10k, but that was apparently not good enough for my fleetmate, and I wonder if it'd really be good enough for you, either. Also, am I allowed to enjoy myself with a build that I myself want to use, or can I only win the right to have fun after I've made an AP beamboat?
OP, the bottom line is that you're not being as helpful as you seem to think you are. In fact, considering that every word you've written so far has been positively dripping with condescension, you're going to have to change tack in a major way if being helpful truly is on your agenda.
Whilst I accept the premise that helping others improve is a good thing, I do think as others have stated it is very situational.
I am not a DPSer but I do find a build I enjoy and attempt to get the most DPS out of it, even if that isn't the "optimal" DPS build for that vessel/class.
I have been irked by people attempting to force their ideas onto in pugs before now, not that I'm not willing to learn at all its just that I would rather ask if I wish for advice.
I have a fellow fleet member who is a heavy DPSer and totally not a douche (pretty nice guy actually), I have taken allot of tips from him when I have asked and he understands the diversity of the player base we have in our fleet.
I actually put him in a command position because of his attitude to DPS. In most variations of build and gameplay a decent amount of DPS can be got from it, and regardless of how members build their ships he/we try to help people get the most out of their choice. To elaborate he is the fleet "build advisor" IF people should so ask. It seems they are happy to, just on their own terms.
I think trying to offer advice to somebody just after a failed mission is likely to annoy some people especially when they are told its their fault, they're already annoyed they failed the mission. Plus there are soso many different types of random your efforts will likely be a TRIBBLE in a hurricane.
I find it much more effective to offer advice and help to those who are more likely to want to hear it in fleet chat, and various other channels where people congregate to converse about such things. I've found both myself and others to be far more receptive to build advice in these situations than at the end of a failed pug.
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
When I'm driving the 30-odd miles home after work, *everyone* who is driving faster than me is a "maniac" and everyone in my way is an "idiot".
So too with STO. Anyone doing less DPS than me is a n00b, and anyone doing more DPS than me is a cheater.
OK, *I* don't actually feel like that, but that is the common attitude.
I didn't want to chuckle, but in reading what the person that you replied to said...it's very easy to run into that and see it coming.
To some folks, that 12.5k is going be doing it wrong. Yet, there are going to be folks that consider that Elite DPS; and they're going to blame the person for why everything's harder.
I prefer to go with content requirements...there's no personalities involved...over player requirements...there's all sorts of personalities involved.
I really dont think there needs to be a "challenge" issued to anyone.
While I am in full agreement that people need to think before they join a Queue, you also need to realise that this change wasn't wanted in the way it was implemented.
The more hardcore players did want a difficulty increase but not retardedly tanky ships this was obviously a mistake something I hope to be fixed as time goes on.
the "play to have fun" camp have it right though, people want to have fun and they play the way they want, before it wasnt so bad even if someone messed up in an STF players were pissed but it didnt get to the point where it put people off Queueing not on a large scale anyway.
A majority of the time people I know of are afraid to queue because they dont want to waste their time and get paired with someone unprepared there is also the people who are afraid to Queue because they dont want to get flamed.
Ive said many times before that some of the community should take the blame for whats happened to my absolute shock (/sarcasm) they have refused to I.e Ego to big for their skulls etc (im looking at you DPS'ers) however It is not entirely their fault, its the devs and thats the only thing me and the DPSing people I've talked to agree on.
you want to fix this? instead of issuing a challenge make a petition to let Elite stay as it is but have advanced revert to the way it was before DR rewards and all (with scaling of course) until they can improve the AI dramatically and increase the difficulty without shoving random stats on mobs and you will have your problem solved.
So what I'm left wondering is where the line goes. At what point am I no longer considered worthless? You said 10k, but that was apparently not good enough for my fleetmate, and I wonder if it'd really be good enough for you, either. Also, am I allowed to enjoy myself with a build that I myself want to use, or can I only win the right to have fun after I've made an AP beamboat?
I think your fleetmate is being inappropriate.
I think anybody doing 10k or more is doing good enough for the Advanced queue. And the only time I consider someone as being "worthless" is when they don't do anything to help complete the mission. As long as someone is trying and tries to get better, then they are good in my book. Once you can consistantly complete the Advanced queue, then you are good enough. No matter your build or dps level.
My current build doesn't consistantly do 10k or more. But I do complete the Advanced queues on a regular basis. I am still working on improving what gear I can and what rotation I use. But I have seen little progress in that area recently. But since things are getting done, I don't see this as being a bad thing on my part. And the healing, survival tricks and area effects that I put out helps the group in general to get the job done. And no one seems to complain. SO I am happy as I am now as being good enough for what I want to do. But I m not opposed to getting better.
I will hold my hands up. I fly a Chimera heavy destroyer, equipped almost entirely with mk ∞ gear ('cept for the anti-borg torpedo launcher), and I have no idea what its overall DPS is, nor do I care.
I will fly as I want to and IF I WANT help on improving my experience I WILL ASK, not be told.
Were certain queues dead long before Delta Rising? Yes.
Were certain queues dying long before Delta Rising? Yes.
Were folks running public/private channels long before Delta Rising? Yes.
Did folks rage over failed Optionals? Yes.
Did folks warp over failed Optionals? Yes.
Did folks join runs with already failed Optionals and rage? Yes.
Did Cryptic make rewards easier to get outside of queues before Delta Rising? Yes.
Has Cryptic continued to make rewards easier to get outside of queues since Delta Rising? Yes.
Are people that had no problem with the old Elites having problems with Advanced? No.
About how much more DPS do Advanced require over the old Elite? 1-2k DPS.
So content wasn't changed for the high DPS folks? 89k before DR, 120k after DR...yeah, no.
Can folks leech rewards on their dozen alts with Mandatory Objectives? Not as easily.
Are folks going to make all sorts of excuses? Yeah...yeah they are.
Is that anything new? No, not in the least.
I will hold my hands up. I fly a Chimera heavy destroyer, equipped almost entirely with mk ∞ gear ('cept for the anti-borg torpedo launcher), and I have no idea what its overall DPS is, nor do I care.
I will fly as I want to and IF I WANT help on improving my experience I WILL ASK, not be told.
Do you just run solo content? Or are you taking this opportunity to say TRIBBLE the 4+ other folks that might end up on a team with you? Who knows, eh? You could be killing any content requirements you come across with the build...but still, your attitude there suggests that you're saying TRIBBLE everybody else.
How are you NOT trolling other players here? You say you want to help, but your presumption is that nobody wants it. You're also being very negative about other people's playstyles and about PUG's in general. And you flat out state that anyone who isn't building for maximum DPS is not only doing something wrong, they're also trolls. By issuing a challenge, aren't you really trying to manipulate people into doing what you want them to do?
Would you like to give me any valid reasons why this thread shouldn't be closed?
If you're really out to help, why wouldn't you be a little nicer about it?
I guess it comes down to how one reads the OP's challenge. This is what I saw it as:
"Hey guys, I challenge you to try to offer help to folks despite there being folks out there that might rage at you over it."
The challenge would be in continuing to try to offer help to folks even though there may be some out there that would bite your head off for doing so. Don't give up on the community because of a few in the community, would be the challenge I saw being made there...
...course, I've only got part of a pinky toe left on that side of the line with the rest of me leaning toward TRIBBLE the community.
And again you guys are defending this stupid [Threat] aggro mechanic, wich doesnt even work well in PvP.
The challenge is to PvE, not PvP, players. Threat is not broken in PvP, it just bears little in the way to play PvP. It's working as it was designed.
In PvE, threat works. Knowing how to utilize it or take advantage of it, is something entirely different.
I'd love to improve my DPS, I'll take 3 plasmonic leech console, and 21 [CrtD]x4 AP beam arrays please.... (I want my alts to be effective as well)
Thanks for the help...
In all seriousness, pure player skill only goes so far. You can't discount the impact of effective gear and while many will claim it's secondary to personal ability, gear pushed my FACR from say avg. 5k DPS to ~15K DPS... I didn't suddenly gain 3 times more personal ability at playing the game, I just invested in gear.
My alts, are averaging around ~5k DPS... they're just for fun. I'm playing a drain build (Tetryons, etc) and the other is a Plasma build. Ships are T5-U Vet reward (Chimera). Same player, vastly different DPS across different builds. If you met me in a PUG on an alt, I'd appear to be one of those "don't give a hoot" players if you parsed me... on my main I'd probably be considered passable.
Maybe if those who wanted to help started the discussion with "Hey would you like some gear, it seems like you were struggling and I'd like to help" they might be met with more positive responses. Everyone likes free stuff and it shows them you genuinely care and aren't just making a passive-aggresive insult at their skill level.
I define players that don't give a hoot as those that don't want to change anything, gear or otherwise. A wise-cracking jerk wanting hand-outs gets no help. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
Effective gear...MK XI reward gear for a freshly lvl 50 toon, no reputation, is sufficient to attain 6k DPS in ISA. My wife did it. She had no clue what she was doing. She followed the team. Was late all over the place, and still hit 6k DPS with gear from fluid dynamics, operation gamma, boldly they rode and a few MK xi blue equipment from the exchange. The most effective gear is the brain. Get the player to understand how to use what's available and they can be effective, even in advanced STFs.
You'd appear to be one that doesn't give a hoot? On the contrary, I watch my team and can often recognize someone with a plan, even if it isn't a good one. If you have a plan, I can try to take advantage of it. I had a fleetmate run a CC build in cure advance with only 3k DPS. He was so totally effective at stopping BoP's, raptors, spheres, etc. that I'd be a fool to think him ineffective based solely on DPS. His normal toon does 30k+ DPS, by the way. DPS is not some end-all, be-all benchmark in my book. It helps, it certainly does, but being effective isn't based solely on DPS. DPS is one of the easiest aspects of STO to quantify, so it gets a lot of attention. There is far more to the game beyond DPS that is not easily measureable, that even qualifying it can be troublesome for some.
Hand-outs.... I'd rather teach than give a player something they won't even know how to use or try to use poorly and come away thinking bad things. Everyone sees stuff in chat that is MK XIV this or that all the time. Everyone knows that stuff is out there. A player get's a false sense that gear must be the way to improve. It is only 1 of many parts to improving, but using it improperly does little. Most players that are ineffective are that way not because they aren't trying, but because they are confused about this and that. Gear is expensive, but bridge officer training can be relatively cheap and have an immediate impact if I take the time to listen and recognize what the player is trying to do and giving them direction. A player may take months to attain the dilithium needed to level one weapon to MK XIV, but selling a couple of engines or shields picked up in STFs will often cover the price to buy training manuals for re-training bridge officers. I do not discount the impact upgrading to better gear does, I just recognize it is expensive and may be somewhat out of the reach for a casual player.
Most people don't wanna hear about what's wrong with their ship. I tried to help my old fleet set up a team for pvp matches. Unfortunately, only myself and one other member really had any experience and even though I was zipping around the maps during practice sessions destroying everyone with ease they still would refuse to listen to my advice on how to improve their ships.
I've tried to help people in pve as well and it's generally the same. They will argue with you as to why such and such skill is better or such and such console is better.
I've tried to help people in pve as well and it's generally the same. They will argue with you as to why such and such skill is better or such and such console is better.
Take time to help those that want help, not those that don't want it.
And again you guys are defending this stupid [Threat] aggro mechanic, wich doesnt even work well in PvP..
You must be a special kind of 'special' when you think [+Threat] works in PvP at all. LOL. (Or [-Threat], for that matter; again, LOL).
In PvE, however (what we were actually talking about, remember?). [+Threat] works very well. [-Threat], on the other hand, not so much (simply because doing DPS rapidly overtakes any [-Threat] you had going).
The OP is flying around in the PvE's in a Ar'Kif with epic antiprotons probably a ton of lobi gear Elite pets pushing 50k dps with his pointied eared Romulan Self.
That's Kool and Fine
Those humans in cruisers cant match that Dps...........And you know what their Star Trek ships and this is a Star Trek game
I never heard that a Tank was soposed to heal some else the Tank is soposed to be healed !
But Tank....is a D&D thing not a star trek thing in the first place...Bad mechanice that should not be in game and will never be accepted by most star trek fans .............Its only accepted by general mmo players..........cyrptics fault for putting it in the game in the first place there slowly changing it
The OP should make a human get in a cruiser then with the resources level and gear of that character only, and not open his wallet for hundreds of dollars of lobi and trait's gear and abilitys from other ships.
But I think the OP wants everyone to have romulan characters with the antiproton set up like what he has for Da Max DPS.......That's not going to happen
If you want to be the DPS king and showboat in the PvE Qs then play the Goalie not the star quarterback OP
There is no reason for a Infected or Kit stf to fail if your flying a 50k dps ship
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Seems a lot of posters think this is a "classic" mmo...and you couldnt be more wrong.
Tanks? lol yeah right for what exactly? Healers? hahahaha good one,this game was flawed in its design since day one,there isnt a holy trinity and there will never be one,all you need is pewpew and you're all set.
Exactly this ...
On the "STO Rebirth" thread, I've read that the first ISE looked a lot like DR ISA , with the dps standards set too high ... and then I lol'ed.
I've been recently levelling a romulan sci to be used maybe someday in pvp; after he hit 50, I started to gather marks for the dailies ... with some resources and some wit, a cheap plasma build , a Scimi, the Vastam trait and the help of the new embassy consoles, I made him able to reach 25k under good conditions.
Guess what? I think I've failed something like 70% ISAs and CSAs ... no big deal for me but what about a new player with only one toon? oh well, there's still Defera, the most bugged place in the universe ...
So, we are here bantering about DPS-centric mentalities and "I wanna play mah style" when pugs FAIL because teams either don't know how to play and/or do too less of a damage to make it succeed.
So, blame the game, not the OP and then be constructive.
Comments
Yes, tanks who can actually do their job are beneficial in PvE. So long as you're playing with the right teammates for your level (not everyone should expect to pull aggro off of people doing 75k+, just like not everyone should expect to do 75k+), your team will be the better for your presence.
Yes, there are people who do 10 dps and fail at holding aggro. These are 'turtles', not tanks. This is a significant problem.
Yes, actual tanks exist. Notable examples include myself, Synthia Suicide, and Dodye, off of the top of my head, that I have met and conversed with significantly - I believe there are others out there. We are capable of pulling aggro off of high dps players (and low-dps players) consistently, significantly, and while staying alive. I personally challenge anyone who does not believe this to fly in a match with me, and if the match itself doesn't convince you, look at the combatlog. (Note - being unable to aggro warp core breaches does not disqualify me from being a tank).
Yes, a measure of dps - not an unattainable one, but a reasonable measure of dps is needed to pull aggro.
Contrary to what some people in here think, Embassy consoles with +Th on them do have a noticeable impact on your threat generation, as does starship threat control.
Also contrary to what some people think, you do not have to be doing even half the dps that your dps'er is doing to hold aggro; I've actually managed to do so in a ship doing less than 1/4th what he dps'er was doing.
The job of the tank, at a fundamental level, is to ensure that aggro stays off of the other players. It is not to cross-heal (if they're not doing their job well enough, this may be necessary, but this is not their job), and it is not innately to kill things (though they do need some dps to pull aggro). Their job is simply to keep aggro off of the other players.
This means that if warp shadows weren't bugged, they would be a fantastic tool. Whatever you do to pull aggro and live through it is legitimate. In theory, if you could do 100 dps and pull aggro off of the entire team, provided you had dps'ers who were doing more than 1/5th the bare dps required to not fail (which should be the job of the dps'er), that would be fine. In reality, threat multipliers aren't nearly that high, and you will have to do dps.
As a general rule of thumb, a tank wishing to tank in a pug will want around 7k, someone in a good fleet will want to be in the 10-20k range, and someone wishing to pull aggro off of the dps-channel members want need to pull at least half of the dps that their teammates are qualified for, simply to to run run speed, the number of high-performing teammates, and variance between runs. Note that all of those should be sufficient to complete the run, even if they warp in with 4 other tanks (ha) following the same guideline, unless you're trying to pug elite queues.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Quite right.
Yes.
I did the following as a rough example in another thread...just looking at a few things and leaving the rest to the imagination for the differences it could make.
This is really great math. My personal summary of that would be this:
Gear upgrades will have roughly the same % difference for everyone.
But going from 100% of 2k dps to 200% of 2k dps isn't nearly as significant overall as going from 100% of 50k dps to 110% of 50k dps.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Ok ...
Ahh , I get it -- nothing's changed , still large and in charge and full of contempt toward the less deserving .
(snip)
Ok , so you just issued a challenge while at the very same time you assured those you've challenged that they will have a horrible time ... , not once but twice :
Sigh ... .
Heh ... , despite the temptation I stayed out of the last DPS video debacle (it didn't need me to point out what was wrong with it) , but I was very tempted to take one pretty ironic sentence from "jarvisandalfred" and spin it toward the DPS crowd , especially since your challenge involved them coming out of their comfort zone in the sequestered DPS channels :
Sorry buddy , but I think you've got things mixed up a bit . It's not "the scrubs" or the team players or the "I play to have fun" ppl who shun you , it's the other way around , and dismantling the DPS channels would save you from having to go on a case by case basis to help people , like this challenge proposes .
... not that I expect that to happen of course , but it's always more fun to dream of a less divided fandom ...
How are you NOT trolling other players here? You say you want to help, but your presumption is that nobody wants it. You're also being very negative about other people's playstyles and about PUG's in general. And you flat out state that anyone who isn't building for maximum DPS is not only doing something wrong, they're also trolls. By issuing a challenge, aren't you really trying to manipulate people into doing what you want them to do?
Would you like to give me any valid reasons why this thread shouldn't be closed?
If you're really out to help, why wouldn't you be a little nicer about it?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I am not the OP.
I did not get the vibe that the OP was trolling, but presenting is viewpoint on the state of the game in regards to PVE, and then asked people to go out and confirm for themeselves his experience.
Now, plasmanugget, he seems to be trolling this discussion and his comments are less than useful, helpful, or polite.
Personally, this game seems to me to have gone deep towards DPSing as the means to complete Advanced and Elite queues. That is just a fact. I am not saying that Tanking and Healing cannot be useful or helpful. But they are definately not the MOST EFFECTIVE and EFFICIENT manner to complete those queues. (The caps are for emphasis only)
Myself, I am not at 10K DPS yet. I keep trying to figure out how to up that, but I am pretty much at the limit of my gearing of stuff and traits. SO it has to be related to my skill as a player. And that may be a hump I will never quite get past. I am not sure yet.
OP, while I agree with most of what you say, you discount the fact that some players, while taking the advice, just can't seem to get the rotation down to use the skills efficiently enough to get to those higher DPS levels.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
yeah, if i were a mod by hypothetical, i would of shut this down by now. there is nothing positive in the op comment to keep it running.
if i want help with my ship then i will ask it but im not going to give the op the chance to hook me up for his kicks, next.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
"WE failed... Because YOU..." This is not a statement that reflects leadership nor team work. "WE failed because WE didn't\couldn't..." assumes some responsibility for the failure rather than placing it solely on that one person EVEN if it's accurate. This is a game. Most of us still play it to have fun. Losing is for the most part "not fun" and being told that out of 5 people you are the one that made 4 other people not have fun is ~4x less fun than losing. Regardless of your intention, your phrasing is less than welcoming. If you'd like I can give you some pointers on empathizing with people that have different aspirations and goals than you.
Hopefully, you don't mind all of those thorns in you. [AKA rude/troll comments]
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Its actually great. I find this amazing, that in fact, even after Cryptic TRIBBLE up ppl with DR changes, they still stayed and enjoy themselves and playing their game in a fun way.
And again you guys are defending this stupid [Threat] aggro mechanic, wich doesnt even work well in PvP. There is no real aggro/taunt skill, wich could even lock the enemies on you. Alot of games, I would say the majority, have that and trinity, including tanks, work. Ohh, you and a few "specialists" dont like it... thats another story.
Good point. Last sentence is spot on: its like "Come here to our channel, and you stroke isa to improve yourself" lol.
This job belongs to friends and fleet members.
Ofcourse a player has to ask for help, but this really should be a part of the social circle that player is part of.
Join the Deltas today!
Or when a fleetmate in a beamboating AP Scimi told me that I "shouldn't use" DHCs on my Ty'Gokor after an ISA where I'd parsed for 12.5k DPS with said DHCs without any vuln. locators (because they're super expensive) and a bunch of ship weapons that were still at Mk XII (all VR, though (I mean, I'm not an animal)).
So what I'm left wondering is where the line goes. At what point am I no longer considered worthless? You said 10k, but that was apparently not good enough for my fleetmate, and I wonder if it'd really be good enough for you, either. Also, am I allowed to enjoy myself with a build that I myself want to use, or can I only win the right to have fun after I've made an AP beamboat?
OP, the bottom line is that you're not being as helpful as you seem to think you are. In fact, considering that every word you've written so far has been positively dripping with condescension, you're going to have to change tack in a major way if being helpful truly is on your agenda.
I am not a DPSer but I do find a build I enjoy and attempt to get the most DPS out of it, even if that isn't the "optimal" DPS build for that vessel/class.
I have been irked by people attempting to force their ideas onto in pugs before now, not that I'm not willing to learn at all its just that I would rather ask if I wish for advice.
I have a fellow fleet member who is a heavy DPSer and totally not a douche (pretty nice guy actually), I have taken allot of tips from him when I have asked and he understands the diversity of the player base we have in our fleet.
I actually put him in a command position because of his attitude to DPS. In most variations of build and gameplay a decent amount of DPS can be got from it, and regardless of how members build their ships he/we try to help people get the most out of their choice. To elaborate he is the fleet "build advisor" IF people should so ask. It seems they are happy to, just on their own terms.
I think trying to offer advice to somebody just after a failed mission is likely to annoy some people especially when they are told its their fault, they're already annoyed they failed the mission. Plus there are soso many different types of random your efforts will likely be a TRIBBLE in a hurricane.
I find it much more effective to offer advice and help to those who are more likely to want to hear it in fleet chat, and various other channels where people congregate to converse about such things. I've found both myself and others to be far more receptive to build advice in these situations than at the end of a failed pug.
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
So too with STO. Anyone doing less DPS than me is a n00b, and anyone doing more DPS than me is a cheater.
OK, *I* don't actually feel like that, but that is the common attitude.
--Red Annorax
I didn't want to chuckle, but in reading what the person that you replied to said...it's very easy to run into that and see it coming.
To some folks, that 12.5k is going be doing it wrong. Yet, there are going to be folks that consider that Elite DPS; and they're going to blame the person for why everything's harder.
I prefer to go with content requirements...there's no personalities involved...over player requirements...there's all sorts of personalities involved.
While I am in full agreement that people need to think before they join a Queue, you also need to realise that this change wasn't wanted in the way it was implemented.
The more hardcore players did want a difficulty increase but not retardedly tanky ships this was obviously a mistake something I hope to be fixed as time goes on.
the "play to have fun" camp have it right though, people want to have fun and they play the way they want, before it wasnt so bad even if someone messed up in an STF players were pissed but it didnt get to the point where it put people off Queueing not on a large scale anyway.
A majority of the time people I know of are afraid to queue because they dont want to waste their time and get paired with someone unprepared there is also the people who are afraid to Queue because they dont want to get flamed.
Ive said many times before that some of the community should take the blame for whats happened to my absolute shock (/sarcasm) they have refused to I.e Ego to big for their skulls etc (im looking at you DPS'ers) however It is not entirely their fault, its the devs and thats the only thing me and the DPSing people I've talked to agree on.
you want to fix this? instead of issuing a challenge make a petition to let Elite stay as it is but have advanced revert to the way it was before DR rewards and all (with scaling of course) until they can improve the AI dramatically and increase the difficulty without shoving random stats on mobs and you will have your problem solved.
I think your fleetmate is being inappropriate.
I think anybody doing 10k or more is doing good enough for the Advanced queue. And the only time I consider someone as being "worthless" is when they don't do anything to help complete the mission. As long as someone is trying and tries to get better, then they are good in my book. Once you can consistantly complete the Advanced queue, then you are good enough. No matter your build or dps level.
My current build doesn't consistantly do 10k or more. But I do complete the Advanced queues on a regular basis. I am still working on improving what gear I can and what rotation I use. But I have seen little progress in that area recently. But since things are getting done, I don't see this as being a bad thing on my part. And the healing, survival tricks and area effects that I put out helps the group in general to get the job done. And no one seems to complain. SO I am happy as I am now as being good enough for what I want to do. But I m not opposed to getting better.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I will fly as I want to and IF I WANT help on improving my experience I WILL ASK, not be told.
Technically, there's no need for tactical officers. They just do it faster. In space. Engineers own ground.
Were certain queues dead long before Delta Rising? Yes.
Were certain queues dying long before Delta Rising? Yes.
Were folks running public/private channels long before Delta Rising? Yes.
Did folks rage over failed Optionals? Yes.
Did folks warp over failed Optionals? Yes.
Did folks join runs with already failed Optionals and rage? Yes.
Did Cryptic make rewards easier to get outside of queues before Delta Rising? Yes.
Has Cryptic continued to make rewards easier to get outside of queues since Delta Rising? Yes.
Are people that had no problem with the old Elites having problems with Advanced? No.
About how much more DPS do Advanced require over the old Elite? 1-2k DPS.
So content wasn't changed for the high DPS folks? 89k before DR, 120k after DR...yeah, no.
Can folks leech rewards on their dozen alts with Mandatory Objectives? Not as easily.
Are folks going to make all sorts of excuses? Yeah...yeah they are.
Is that anything new? No, not in the least.
Do you just run solo content? Or are you taking this opportunity to say TRIBBLE the 4+ other folks that might end up on a team with you? Who knows, eh? You could be killing any content requirements you come across with the build...but still, your attitude there suggests that you're saying TRIBBLE everybody else.
I guess it comes down to how one reads the OP's challenge. This is what I saw it as:
"Hey guys, I challenge you to try to offer help to folks despite there being folks out there that might rage at you over it."
The challenge would be in continuing to try to offer help to folks even though there may be some out there that would bite your head off for doing so. Don't give up on the community because of a few in the community, would be the challenge I saw being made there...
...course, I've only got part of a pinky toe left on that side of the line with the rest of me leaning toward TRIBBLE the community.
In PvE, threat works. Knowing how to utilize it or take advantage of it, is something entirely different.
I define players that don't give a hoot as those that don't want to change anything, gear or otherwise. A wise-cracking jerk wanting hand-outs gets no help. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
Effective gear...MK XI reward gear for a freshly lvl 50 toon, no reputation, is sufficient to attain 6k DPS in ISA. My wife did it. She had no clue what she was doing. She followed the team. Was late all over the place, and still hit 6k DPS with gear from fluid dynamics, operation gamma, boldly they rode and a few MK xi blue equipment from the exchange. The most effective gear is the brain. Get the player to understand how to use what's available and they can be effective, even in advanced STFs.
You'd appear to be one that doesn't give a hoot? On the contrary, I watch my team and can often recognize someone with a plan, even if it isn't a good one. If you have a plan, I can try to take advantage of it. I had a fleetmate run a CC build in cure advance with only 3k DPS. He was so totally effective at stopping BoP's, raptors, spheres, etc. that I'd be a fool to think him ineffective based solely on DPS. His normal toon does 30k+ DPS, by the way. DPS is not some end-all, be-all benchmark in my book. It helps, it certainly does, but being effective isn't based solely on DPS. DPS is one of the easiest aspects of STO to quantify, so it gets a lot of attention. There is far more to the game beyond DPS that is not easily measureable, that even qualifying it can be troublesome for some.
Hand-outs.... I'd rather teach than give a player something they won't even know how to use or try to use poorly and come away thinking bad things. Everyone sees stuff in chat that is MK XIV this or that all the time. Everyone knows that stuff is out there. A player get's a false sense that gear must be the way to improve. It is only 1 of many parts to improving, but using it improperly does little. Most players that are ineffective are that way not because they aren't trying, but because they are confused about this and that. Gear is expensive, but bridge officer training can be relatively cheap and have an immediate impact if I take the time to listen and recognize what the player is trying to do and giving them direction. A player may take months to attain the dilithium needed to level one weapon to MK XIV, but selling a couple of engines or shields picked up in STFs will often cover the price to buy training manuals for re-training bridge officers. I do not discount the impact upgrading to better gear does, I just recognize it is expensive and may be somewhat out of the reach for a casual player.
I've tried to help people in pve as well and it's generally the same. They will argue with you as to why such and such skill is better or such and such console is better.
Take time to help those that want help, not those that don't want it.
You must be a special kind of 'special' when you think [+Threat] works in PvP at all. LOL. (Or [-Threat], for that matter; again, LOL).
In PvE, however (what we were actually talking about, remember?). [+Threat] works very well. [-Threat], on the other hand, not so much (simply because doing DPS rapidly overtakes any [-Threat] you had going).
That's Kool and Fine
Those humans in cruisers cant match that Dps...........And you know what their Star Trek ships and this is a Star Trek game
I never heard that a Tank was soposed to heal some else the Tank is soposed to be healed !
But Tank....is a D&D thing not a star trek thing in the first place...Bad mechanice that should not be in game and will never be accepted by most star trek fans .............Its only accepted by general mmo players..........cyrptics fault for putting it in the game in the first place there slowly changing it
The OP should make a human get in a cruiser then with the resources level and gear of that character only, and not open his wallet for hundreds of dollars of lobi and trait's gear and abilitys from other ships.
But I think the OP wants everyone to have romulan characters with the antiproton set up like what he has for Da Max DPS.......That's not going to happen
If you want to be the DPS king and showboat in the PvE Qs then play the Goalie not the star quarterback OP
There is no reason for a Infected or Kit stf to fail if your flying a 50k dps ship
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Exactly this ...
On the "STO Rebirth" thread, I've read that the first ISE looked a lot like DR ISA , with the dps standards set too high ... and then I lol'ed.
I've been recently levelling a romulan sci to be used maybe someday in pvp; after he hit 50, I started to gather marks for the dailies ... with some resources and some wit, a cheap plasma build , a Scimi, the Vastam trait and the help of the new embassy consoles, I made him able to reach 25k under good conditions.
Guess what? I think I've failed something like 70% ISAs and CSAs ... no big deal for me but what about a new player with only one toon? oh well, there's still Defera, the most bugged place in the universe ...
So, we are here bantering about DPS-centric mentalities and "I wanna play mah style" when pugs FAIL because teams either don't know how to play and/or do too less of a damage to make it succeed.
So, blame the game, not the OP and then be constructive.