Starsword, the major problem there is that taking on the Klingon Empire to that extent, ESPECIALLY at the present time, would break the Federation.
The Klingon Empire has co-opted the Ferasans, Nausicaans, Letheans, Orion Syndicate (who not even Starfleet could stomp out), and the Gorn Hegemony. They have a significantly greater bulk of territory and manpower now, augmented by what we can reasonably presume are aggressive expansion efforts on non-Federation fronts. Taking them on is still POSSIBLE for the UFP, but that leaves them wide-open to attacks from the Breen, Ferengi factions, the True Way, remnant Imperial Romulans, even the Dominion.
tl;dr: The Feds would win but it wouldn't honestly be worth it. Best-case scenario, Worf kills Jm'Pok and becomes tlhIngan Qang, Kahless endorses him, and Klingon culture starts to encourage courage and honorable conduct over senseless violence. That would be much more stable in the long run.
Stop right there. You fundamentally misunderstand both conflicts.
DS9 war. Federation calls bullsh*t on the Klingons' wild-TRIBBLE claim that there was no possible way for a civilian revolt to overthrow a military government, ergo there were changelings involved. Klingons pull out of Khitomer Accords and invade Cardassia anyway, then attacks the Federation when they give sanctuary to the Detapa Council. Everything after that falls under the heading of, "well, we're at war anyway, why not try and conquer some planets?"
The Klingons' casus belli looks more to me like their military rulers didn't want their commoners getting uppity ideas, rather like Putin started dicking around in Ukraine after the Orange Revolution to keep common Russians from seeing a more free government on their border. Oh, and guess what: the Klingons were the ones who the Founders had infiltrated.
STO war. Practically a redux of the DS9 war. Federation calls bullsh*t on the Klingons' claims that the Undine had infiltrated the Gorn. Klingons pull out of Khitomer Accords and invade the Hegemony anyway, then attack the Federation because J'mpok decided he wanted some new planets and f*ck the fact they'd been Federation-owned for centuries.
Klingons' casus belli against the Federation is a blatant land grab and has absolutely f*ck-all to do with the Undine. The Federation is fully justified in fighting back. Oh, and guess what? One of the Fed missions shows the Klingon military is infiltrated, too. The Klingons have no more clue what they're doing than the Feds do, and the fact that they were shown after-the-fact to be right about the Gorn has absolutely nothing to do with the war with the Federation.
The Klingons have no legitimate grievances; they were the aggressors both times. And if they wanted the Feds as allies they should've thought more extensively about the fact that the Federation never goes to war unless there is no other option, and factored that into their efforts to get them on board.
Dude, the Founders and Undine had both infiltrated everybody.
The major problem in both cases is the same--overly-aggressive Klingon leader decides to use shapeshifters as a convenient excuse for a land grab, and the Federation engages in head-up-sphincter management.
The Federation fundamentally needs to take the Klingons' claims more seriously, and the Klingons need to stop using these issues as pretexts for land grabs.
Dude, the Founders and Undine had both infiltrated everybody.
Yeah, no. They weren't even seriously trying with the Federation infiltration after one of them got killed in "The Adversary"; otherwise they would've stayed covert in "Homefront" instead of fragging walking up to Sisko to say "hi there, you suck". After that, all they did to the Federation was military sabotage when the war was actually imminent.
The major problem in both cases is the same--overly-aggressive Klingon leader decides to use shapeshifters as a convenient excuse for a land grab, and the Federation engages in head-up-sphincter management.
Agreed on the first, categorically disagreed on the second. The Federation reacted extremely quickly to the Founder infiltration; it's only in STO where they seem to have taken stupid pills.
The Federation fundamentally needs to take the Klingons' claims more seriously, and the Klingons need to stop using these issues as pretexts for land grabs.
Why should you take a claim with no concrete evidence presented seriously? Klingons go "hurr-hurr, this guy who we've been bickering with for years is a shapeshifter, so come help us invade them because HONOR".
Microcosm of the entire war: "Diplomatic Orders". Klingon randomly turns up inside Federation core territory to demand a Starfleet officer hand over an ambassador, saying "hurr hurr, he's an Undine, so hand him over because HONOR".
What do you do? Do you violate your own orders and unquestioningly hand a Federation dignitary over to an enemy combatant purely on his say-so? Honestly the fact that the Fed PC even gives the Klingon captain the time of day and politely asks for evidence instead of hanging up on him and blasting him out of space shows incredible restraint. And how like a Klingon to throw a temper tantrum and attack you rather than try to back up his ludicrous claim.
Then it turns out after the fact that he was right, but he got in his own way and caused a hell of a lot more damage because he decided to act like an immature brat instead of a senior line officer. Just like our beloved J'mpok. :rolleyes:
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Dude, the Founders and Undine had both infiltrated everybody.
The major problem in both cases is the same--overly-aggressive Klingon leader decides to use shapeshifters as a convenient excuse for a land grab, and the Federation engages in head-up-sphincter management.
The Federation fundamentally needs to take the Klingons' claims more seriously, and the Klingons need to stop using these issues as pretexts for land grabs.
I agree the Klingons were using the Undine as pretext for a land grab--and by doing so, playing straight into the hands of the Undine and the Iconians.
But I do think that as unfortunate and unwise as it was, there was more to the Federation ignoring the Klingons than mere intransigence. The thing is, the Klingons had proven in the prior generation (the DS9 generation) that their word on such matters was pretty much trash.
It's true that this time the infiltrators on the other side were real, unlike when the Founders took advantage of Klingon bloodthirstiness and vainglory (particularly Gowron's) to stoke them into falsely believing the Cardassians were infiltrated. But the Klingons were major idiots to think that after they cried wolf in 2372 and sowed the seeds for the aggrieved Cardassians to run right into the Dominion's arms and give the Dominion an Alpha Quadrant beachhead, that ANYONE would believe them once they started threatening violence. Their word on such matters was already worthless.
IMO, the Feds saw a repeat of 2372. Granted, I suspect that grievance was most remembered by the Cardassians as opposed to the Federation, but my point is that the Klingons did have a record of going to war on false pretenses--false pretenses specifically involving shapeshifting infiltrators. So I think that while Aennik Okeg was wrong, the devs would have done better to allow the Feds to defend themselves. I know when I played "Surface Tension" and had to take all that garbage from the Klingon ambassadors and captain (man, I wanted a "frag" button for Koren badly), that was exactly the retort that was in my head: "Yes, NOW we know you were right, but there's that old saying that past performance is the best indicator of future performance. And your past was atrocious! Why SHOULD we have believed you?"
Because thing is, the Klinks played right into the Iconians' hands just like they did the Dominion's, and helped destabilize the quadrant to get them ripe and ready for the Undine and the Iconians. Great job, morons, they're two for two now. If they could've just stayed their hands--heck, if they'd even resorted to something like putting it all over the Federation's lovely free media that there were infiltrators and stirred "our" civilians up until they started demanding action from their leaders, even THAT would have been better. But no, they went to war, grabbed land and "glory," and showed everyone (until the player character comes along and starts exposing infiltrators) that they were just repeating their same old, horrible song.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Yeah, no. They weren't even seriously trying with the Federation infiltration after one of them got killed in "The Adversary"; otherwise they would've stayed covert in "Homefront" instead of fragging walking up to Sisko to say "hi there, you suck". After that, all they did to the Federation was military sabotage when the war was actually imminent.
Agreed on the first, categorically disagreed on the second. The Federation reacted extremely quickly to the Founder infiltration; it's only in STO where they seem to have taken stupid pills.
Why should you take a claim with no concrete evidence presented seriously? Klingons go "hurr-hurr, this guy who we've been bickering with for years is a shapeshifter, so come help us invade them because HONOR".
Microcosm of the entire war: "Diplomatic Orders". Klingon randomly turns up inside Federation core territory to demand a Starfleet officer hand over an ambassador, saying "hurr hurr, he's an Undine, so hand him over because HONOR".
What do you do? Do you violate your own orders and unquestioningly hand a Federation dignitary over to an enemy combatant purely on his say-so? Honestly the fact that the Fed PC even gives the Klingon captain the time of day and politely asks for evidence instead of hanging up on him and blasting him out of space shows incredible restraint. And how like a Klingon to throw a temper tantrum and attack you rather than try to back up his ludicrous claim.
Then it turns out after the fact that he was right, but he got in his own way and caused a hell of a lot more damage because he decided to act like an immature brat instead of a senior line officer. Just like our beloved J'mpok. :rolleyes:
On quick MA check and a minute in chat, agreed.
Now, my point about Jm'Pok and what's needed for lasting peace still stands; the Klingons need overall social change and the Feds need heads out of sphincters.
Stop right there. You fundamentally misunderstand both conflicts.
DS9 war. Federation calls bullsh*t on the Klingons' wild-TRIBBLE claim that there was no possible way for a civilian revolt to overthrow a military government, ergo there were changelings involved. Klingons pull out of Khitomer Accords and invade Cardassia anyway, then attacks the Federation when they give sanctuary to the Detapa Council. Everything after that falls under the heading of, "well, we're at war anyway, why not try and conquer some planets?"
The Klingons' casus belli looks more to me like their military rulers didn't want their commoners getting uppity ideas, rather like Putin started dicking around in Ukraine after the Orange Revolution to keep common Russians from seeing a more free government on their border. Oh, and guess what: the Klingons were the ones who the Founders had infiltrated.
STO war. Practically a redux of the DS9 war. Federation calls bullsh*t on the Klingons' claims that the Undine had infiltrated the Gorn. Klingons pull out of Khitomer Accords and invade the Hegemony anyway, then attack the Federation because J'mpok decided he wanted some new planets and f*ck the fact they'd been Federation-owned for centuries.
Klingons' casus belli against the Federation is a blatant land grab and has absolutely f*ck-all to do with the Undine. The Federation is fully justified in fighting back. Oh, and guess what? One of the Fed missions shows the Klingon military is infiltrated, too. The Klingons have no more clue what they're doing than the Feds do, and the fact that they were shown after-the-fact to be right about the Gorn has absolutely nothing to do with the war with the Federation.
The Klingons have no legitimate grievances; they were the aggressors both times. And if they wanted the Feds as allies they should've thought more extensively about the fact that the Federation never goes to war unless there is no other option, and factored that into their efforts to get them on board.
Actually, Starsword, neither of these are strictly true.
DS9: There were several months of peace with the Klingons after the end of the Cardassian War, so tthe Federation sheltering the Detapa Council wasn't the cause - the council had returned to Cardassia by the time the war started. Martok-Changling used the claim on Archanis to convince Gowron to declare war, the same way the real Martok used the collapse of the RSE to retake Narendra and Khitomer.
STO: Firstly, the Klingons were right about the Undine infiltrating the Gorn - they're freaking King was replaced! And in ay case, there were still 5+ years of peace after this! Secondly, J'mpok was a much more nationalistic leader than Martok - the Federation, who had betrayed the Empire by dishonouring their call to arms against the Gorn (in spite of the Klingons having hard evidence this time), were in posession of several worlds which were sacred to the Klingon people.
If the Klingons weren't able to use these claims because the Federation accepted Klingon concerns, then the warmngering Klingons like J'mpok wouldn't be able to use the claims to justify war to the High Council!
The problem is that the Federation, despite talk about tolerance and acceptance, never accepts anything which goes against its own interests. Or at least it hasn't since Wolf 359. Instead of accepting the Dominion's soveriegnty, they continued to poke the dragon. They've turned the Cardassian Union into little more than a puppet state and they categorically refused to even consider Klingon grievances regarding the Neutral Zone, not to mention conducting a major raid into the capital of a sovereign power (Rator III). The Federation has become similar to a few Superpowers we know nowadays.
OK to start this off i completely understand and know we are all talking about fictional species governments places and things.
Now:
I do not get why all these fed loving people are in here trying to debate on whether or not what the Klingon do, have done or will do is right or wrong. Klingon do not hold to the same codes or value systems as the federation. They are a warrior race it is in their nature.
dilbert/gelbert or what ever his name is was correct the feds if they had ever wanted to earn the respect of the Klingon should have stomped their asses into the ground after Praxis. Or tried too might be the correct thing to say. i doubt the feds of that time could have done it completely.
its already established in canon that the Klingon got Di lithium from other location the heavy mining of Praxis was probably jsut as a result of centuries of mining. i mean they did the need the fuel in the 1st ships to get to and conquer the first enemy planets they came across.
I have come to the realization that I am not a primary KDF player that would imply that I play the other factions some. I do not I am a KDF player Period. My own real world value system can not support the ideas of this federation. When people say it was supposed to represent the USSR they always point out some quote from person some place that said it. and that all fine and dandy but to me the federation is the goal of Communism.
Kirks trek hooked me years ago I loved it. He did what he thought was the right thing to do most of the time to hell with the prime directive, while still supporting it his creative interpretation of its intent was what set him apart. But as the movie UDC quotes only Nixon could go to China. No other Captain in the federation could really show that the Klingon respect the warrior far more than the diplomat.
Basically as a KDF player I Do not want peace , I do not want an alliance, The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend.
We already have to play all nice nice in the real world and try not to offend others and all that Horse $hit. Why in the world would we want a different faction in a game that we are supposed to enjoy to turn out the same way? In game what the KDF does has not bearing of what the feds actually do. so it should be of no concern to the feds in game other than a role playing aspect. so to the OP i think your original thought would have been better a report to the high ups as a Rp and great said and done fun stuff.
Some of us as I stated do not like the Federation and do not want to be like them. I like being the conqueror in a game its fun for me. If I didn't I could just go play as a fed and not to worry about it.
So all I ask as a KDF player is to PLEASE stop trying to run my life and make me play your game.The Klingons are the Warrior race let them stay that way. Stop trying to nerf them into Federation lapdogs. Stop trying to Speculate on whether or not they can be tamed. Stop trying to force pure science Logic B$ down their throats all while picking of their Religious Beliefs.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
What do you do? Do you violate your own orders and unquestioningly hand a Federation dignitary over to an enemy combatant purely on his say-so? Honestly the fact that the Fed PC even gives the Klingon captain the time of day and politely asks for evidence instead of hanging up on him and blasting him out of space shows incredible restraint. And how like a Klingon to throw a temper tantrum and attack you rather than try to back up his ludicrous claim.
I actually remember this being a fundamental point in Klingon law. It was mentioned in DS9 "Rules of Engagement" by Ch'Pok, the Klingon advocate, that in Klingon law intent matters more than proof.
DS9: There were several months of peace with the Klingons after the end of the Cardassian War, so tthe Federation sheltering the Detapa Council wasn't the cause - the council had returned to Cardassia by the time the war started. Martok-Changling used the claim on Archanis to convince Gowron to declare war, the same way the real Martok used the collapse of the RSE to retake Narendra and Khitomer.
Got that extremely wrong. The Klingons declared war on the Feds while military operations inside Cardassia were still going on, operations that continued up to the Dominion invasion. Remember that bit of "By Inferno's Light" where the Klingons came running back to DS9 with their tails between their legs after the Jem'Hadar booted them out of Cardassian space?
STO: Firstly, the Klingons were right about the Undine infiltrating the Gorn - they're freaking King was replaced!
Wrong. Neither King Xrathis nor his son King Slathis was replaced; in fact it was a fairly major point that J'mpok decided to fight Slathis in a personal duel to test his resolve after the KDF took Gornar, and then made him a non-voting member of the High Council, rather than having the royal family executed per standard Klingon procedure regardless of the Undine. Some of the Gorn government officials and military commanders were replaced, yes. Not the king.
And in ay case, there were still 5+ years of peace after this!
Go read the Path to 2409 again. Gornar fell in 2403. J'mpok demanded that the Federation leave the Hromi Cluster in 2404. Okeg told him to go f*ck himself in 2405. Klingons started ethnic cleansing against Fed civilians three days later.
Secondly, J'mpok was a much more nationalistic leader than Martok - the Federation, who had betrayed the Empire by dishonouring their call to arms against the Gorn (in spite of the Klingons having hard evidence this time),
I note a distinct lack of any notion that whatever evidence Ja'rod had gathered was delivered to Federation authorities, something that the Klingons should've thought of doing after Cardassia.
Unless maybe J'mpok just wanted a convenient pretext to attack the Gorn and didn't actually give a f*ck what the Federation thought.
If the Klingons weren't able to use these claims because the Federation accepted Klingon concerns, then the warmngering Klingons like J'mpok wouldn't be able to use the claims to justify war to the High Council!
Warmongers like J'mpok can always find a way to justify themselves, and J'mpok's partisans were in control of the High Council after he knocked off Martok anyway.
The problem is that the Federation, despite talk about tolerance and acceptance, never accepts anything which goes against its own interests. Or at least it hasn't since Wolf 359. Instead of accepting the Dominion's soveriegnty, they continued to poke the dragon.
The Dominion claimed sovereignty over the entire galaxy, if you will recall. Is the Federation obligated to accept that claim?
They've turned the Cardassian Union into little more than a puppet state
And what would the Klingons have done? Oh, that's right, execute their government officials, slaughter their POWs to a man, and induct the survivors into the jegh'pu'wI, the first two of which are confirmed to have happened in the Klingon-Cardassian War and the Dominion War, respectively. At least under the Federation the Cardassians maintain political sovereignty.
The Federation has become similar to a few Superpowers we know nowadays.
Nope. They've just woken up to the fact that sometimes you have to fight dirty when your enemies refuse to do anything else.
The Klingons have zero claim to the moral high ground. What the Klingons would like you to believe and what is actually the reality on the ground are invariably two entirely different things. Try again.
I actually remember this being a fundamental point in Klingon law. It was mentioned in DS9 "Rules of Engagement" by Ch'Pok, the Klingon advocate, that in Klingon law intent matters more than proof.
To hear patrickngo tell it, results are what matters. Hmm. Looks like Klingon honor means whatever the hell is most convenient for it to mean at any given time. And people wonder why I keep hammering the point that the Klingon Empire has no honor at all.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What is necessary is for the Federation to recognise Klingon grievances - the war in DS9 started over Archanis - this one started over Regulus. To Starfleet, these are merely colonies with useful resources and thousands of Federation citizens, but to the Klingons these planets are sacred. Just as the French were willing to send millions of their own troops to die to defend Verdun, the Klingons would pay the same price for these worlds.
An accomodation has to be made to allow Klingon enclaves on these worlds.
Oh, also, the Federation needs to actually pay attention when their allies tell them one of their neighbours is being controlled by an outside force against them both. They also need to understand the weight Klingons place on alliances. If they can't commit to the same level, then peace will be near-impossible.
Of course, permanent peace is fundamentally impossible. Attitudes will not be the same in 100 years. 100 years ago, Russia and the United States were good freinds and Britain and Germany blood enemies. Today, the opposite of both is true.
not impossible, its very possible if both side put down the weapons, the bravado and selfishness that plagues the whole process and then have a through in depth discussion about everything, like going on a date with a girl you have been going out with for months and then your expose yourself completely to her as a form of taking a chance on trusting her, if she does the same, there is a very good chance of a marria... an alliance i mean :P.
this can be done in a matter of months, only those who place obsticles in front of themselves are the ones who consider the situation impossible.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
To hear patrickngo tell it, results are what matters. Hmm. Looks like Klingon honor means whatever the hell is most convenient for it to mean at any given time. And people wonder why I keep hammering the point that the Klingon Empire has no honor at all.
.... which is pretty much true of any ethical code throughout history, including the Federation's (Section 31 and Sisko, anyone?).
*Some* Klingons have a genuine sense of honour; Martok, Gorkon, Kolos, Klag in the novels, Worf, Kang. When Ezri incited Worf to kill Gowron, she quoted Klingon principles to him; from a pro-Klingon perspective the system worked and the Empire's politics self-corrected.
Also, in the case of the Undine infiltration, the Klingons *did* present evidence to the Federation - they sent Worf to do it. Yet despite the testimony of a highly-decorated Starfleet veteran, who had a track record of backing the Federation over his own people when the Empire was in the wrong and it cost his family everything, Klingon claims were dismissed. And as a result, the pro-Federation Martok was lethally undermined. Because he was dismissed, Worf stuck with the Klingons this time.
To coin a phrase, way to break it heroes...
Now, this does not preclude the fact that J'mpok's subsequent aggression was opportunistic. But Federation diplomacy had a big part in getting him into power in the first place.
Basically already exists, actually...GLADoS says it word-for-word to Chell in Portal, amongst others (although when GLADoS says it it's not actually a Nice Job moment, though the game itself does have several)
(Also, the page quote uses Star Trek Online! Neat)
What was the Empire's "proof" of Undine infiltration, anyway? Did they actually have an undine corpse, or...?
This is wild man, loving the serious discussion over this.
In terms I'd say no, not with the current head of the Klingon Empire. old Pok is a bit to quick on the trigger for the Federations liking. While the point is there that when you have jerks like the Undine and the Dommion running around replacing important people and ****ing up the plumbing, you can't just go blasting people and worlds left and right in a attempt to sweep up the spies.
That's work that requires a more subtle touch, and as was already said, the Klingon empire once again proved to be the perfect dupes to touch off a interstellar war that would keep both surviving major Alpha/Beta quadrant powers busy dicking around instead of preparing for the sudden multitude of problems like the Borg and the Icons showing up to take over.
It seems that once again a lot of brave sacrifices on the Federation's part is going to be required to gain another Kithomer accords style of peace. Which hopefully this time around someone in the UFP government has a light-bulb go off and do their best to work the moderate factions of Klingon politics and keep close ties with em to prevent this from going off again.
What was the Empire's "proof" of Undine infiltration, anyway? Did they actually have an undine corpse, or...?
From STOWiki:
Ja'rod (Duras' grandson) was able to capture and interrogate an Undine infiltrator which revealed it had been sent to kill and replace him.
Subsequently, Ja'rod took command of his vessel, went into Gorn space and returned with (unspecified) evidence that the Undine had taken control of the Gorn government.
So, the Klingons have / had a live Undine.
As if this was not enough - and remember that Ja'rod and Worf's houses are blood enemies - at a Gorn / Federation baseball game in 2389, one of the Gorn team was revealed to be an Undine in full view of a stadium crowd. There's a short story in "The Needs of the Many" about this.
And yet, for some reason, the Federation council still failed to accept that the Undine threat was the existential threat the Klingons understood - despite their own intelligence (from Voyager) about Undine infiltration tactics. The only remotely plausible explanations are either that the Council was paralyzed by its own Undine infiltration, or held an incredibly naive view that the Gorn could be persuaded to deal with the problem peacefully.
Comments
The Klingon Empire has co-opted the Ferasans, Nausicaans, Letheans, Orion Syndicate (who not even Starfleet could stomp out), and the Gorn Hegemony. They have a significantly greater bulk of territory and manpower now, augmented by what we can reasonably presume are aggressive expansion efforts on non-Federation fronts. Taking them on is still POSSIBLE for the UFP, but that leaves them wide-open to attacks from the Breen, Ferengi factions, the True Way, remnant Imperial Romulans, even the Dominion.
tl;dr: The Feds would win but it wouldn't honestly be worth it. Best-case scenario, Worf kills Jm'Pok and becomes tlhIngan Qang, Kahless endorses him, and Klingon culture starts to encourage courage and honorable conduct over senseless violence. That would be much more stable in the long run.
Dude, the Founders and Undine had both infiltrated everybody.
The major problem in both cases is the same--overly-aggressive Klingon leader decides to use shapeshifters as a convenient excuse for a land grab, and the Federation engages in head-up-sphincter management.
The Federation fundamentally needs to take the Klingons' claims more seriously, and the Klingons need to stop using these issues as pretexts for land grabs.
Agreed on the first, categorically disagreed on the second. The Federation reacted extremely quickly to the Founder infiltration; it's only in STO where they seem to have taken stupid pills.
Why should you take a claim with no concrete evidence presented seriously? Klingons go "hurr-hurr, this guy who we've been bickering with for years is a shapeshifter, so come help us invade them because HONOR".
Microcosm of the entire war: "Diplomatic Orders". Klingon randomly turns up inside Federation core territory to demand a Starfleet officer hand over an ambassador, saying "hurr hurr, he's an Undine, so hand him over because HONOR".
What do you do? Do you violate your own orders and unquestioningly hand a Federation dignitary over to an enemy combatant purely on his say-so? Honestly the fact that the Fed PC even gives the Klingon captain the time of day and politely asks for evidence instead of hanging up on him and blasting him out of space shows incredible restraint. And how like a Klingon to throw a temper tantrum and attack you rather than try to back up his ludicrous claim.
Then it turns out after the fact that he was right, but he got in his own way and caused a hell of a lot more damage because he decided to act like an immature brat instead of a senior line officer. Just like our beloved J'mpok. :rolleyes:
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I agree the Klingons were using the Undine as pretext for a land grab--and by doing so, playing straight into the hands of the Undine and the Iconians.
But I do think that as unfortunate and unwise as it was, there was more to the Federation ignoring the Klingons than mere intransigence. The thing is, the Klingons had proven in the prior generation (the DS9 generation) that their word on such matters was pretty much trash.
It's true that this time the infiltrators on the other side were real, unlike when the Founders took advantage of Klingon bloodthirstiness and vainglory (particularly Gowron's) to stoke them into falsely believing the Cardassians were infiltrated. But the Klingons were major idiots to think that after they cried wolf in 2372 and sowed the seeds for the aggrieved Cardassians to run right into the Dominion's arms and give the Dominion an Alpha Quadrant beachhead, that ANYONE would believe them once they started threatening violence. Their word on such matters was already worthless.
IMO, the Feds saw a repeat of 2372. Granted, I suspect that grievance was most remembered by the Cardassians as opposed to the Federation, but my point is that the Klingons did have a record of going to war on false pretenses--false pretenses specifically involving shapeshifting infiltrators. So I think that while Aennik Okeg was wrong, the devs would have done better to allow the Feds to defend themselves. I know when I played "Surface Tension" and had to take all that garbage from the Klingon ambassadors and captain (man, I wanted a "frag" button for Koren badly), that was exactly the retort that was in my head: "Yes, NOW we know you were right, but there's that old saying that past performance is the best indicator of future performance. And your past was atrocious! Why SHOULD we have believed you?"
Because thing is, the Klinks played right into the Iconians' hands just like they did the Dominion's, and helped destabilize the quadrant to get them ripe and ready for the Undine and the Iconians. Great job, morons, they're two for two now. If they could've just stayed their hands--heck, if they'd even resorted to something like putting it all over the Federation's lovely free media that there were infiltrators and stirred "our" civilians up until they started demanding action from their leaders, even THAT would have been better. But no, they went to war, grabbed land and "glory," and showed everyone (until the player character comes along and starts exposing infiltrators) that they were just repeating their same old, horrible song.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
On quick MA check and a minute in chat, agreed.
Now, my point about Jm'Pok and what's needed for lasting peace still stands; the Klingons need overall social change and the Feds need heads out of sphincters.
Actually, Starsword, neither of these are strictly true.
DS9: There were several months of peace with the Klingons after the end of the Cardassian War, so tthe Federation sheltering the Detapa Council wasn't the cause - the council had returned to Cardassia by the time the war started. Martok-Changling used the claim on Archanis to convince Gowron to declare war, the same way the real Martok used the collapse of the RSE to retake Narendra and Khitomer.
STO: Firstly, the Klingons were right about the Undine infiltrating the Gorn - they're freaking King was replaced! And in ay case, there were still 5+ years of peace after this! Secondly, J'mpok was a much more nationalistic leader than Martok - the Federation, who had betrayed the Empire by dishonouring their call to arms against the Gorn (in spite of the Klingons having hard evidence this time), were in posession of several worlds which were sacred to the Klingon people.
If the Klingons weren't able to use these claims because the Federation accepted Klingon concerns, then the warmngering Klingons like J'mpok wouldn't be able to use the claims to justify war to the High Council!
The problem is that the Federation, despite talk about tolerance and acceptance, never accepts anything which goes against its own interests. Or at least it hasn't since Wolf 359. Instead of accepting the Dominion's soveriegnty, they continued to poke the dragon. They've turned the Cardassian Union into little more than a puppet state and they categorically refused to even consider Klingon grievances regarding the Neutral Zone, not to mention conducting a major raid into the capital of a sovereign power (Rator III). The Federation has become similar to a few Superpowers we know nowadays.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
1. Drop the bad attitude.
2. Have a long, really long, bath witl lilac oil.
Now:
I do not get why all these fed loving people are in here trying to debate on whether or not what the Klingon do, have done or will do is right or wrong. Klingon do not hold to the same codes or value systems as the federation. They are a warrior race it is in their nature.
dilbert/gelbert or what ever his name is was correct the feds if they had ever wanted to earn the respect of the Klingon should have stomped their asses into the ground after Praxis. Or tried too might be the correct thing to say. i doubt the feds of that time could have done it completely.
its already established in canon that the Klingon got Di lithium from other location the heavy mining of Praxis was probably jsut as a result of centuries of mining. i mean they did the need the fuel in the 1st ships to get to and conquer the first enemy planets they came across.
I have come to the realization that I am not a primary KDF player that would imply that I play the other factions some. I do not I am a KDF player Period. My own real world value system can not support the ideas of this federation. When people say it was supposed to represent the USSR they always point out some quote from person some place that said it. and that all fine and dandy but to me the federation is the goal of Communism.
Kirks trek hooked me years ago I loved it. He did what he thought was the right thing to do most of the time to hell with the prime directive, while still supporting it his creative interpretation of its intent was what set him apart. But as the movie UDC quotes only Nixon could go to China. No other Captain in the federation could really show that the Klingon respect the warrior far more than the diplomat.
Basically as a KDF player I Do not want peace , I do not want an alliance, The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend.
We already have to play all nice nice in the real world and try not to offend others and all that Horse $hit. Why in the world would we want a different faction in a game that we are supposed to enjoy to turn out the same way? In game what the KDF does has not bearing of what the feds actually do. so it should be of no concern to the feds in game other than a role playing aspect. so to the OP i think your original thought would have been better a report to the high ups as a Rp and great said and done fun stuff.
Some of us as I stated do not like the Federation and do not want to be like them. I like being the conqueror in a game its fun for me. If I didn't I could just go play as a fed and not to worry about it.
So all I ask as a KDF player is to PLEASE stop trying to run my life and make me play your game.The Klingons are the Warrior race let them stay that way. Stop trying to nerf them into Federation lapdogs. Stop trying to Speculate on whether or not they can be tamed. Stop trying to force pure science Logic B$ down their throats all while picking of their Religious Beliefs.
I actually remember this being a fundamental point in Klingon law. It was mentioned in DS9 "Rules of Engagement" by Ch'Pok, the Klingon advocate, that in Klingon law intent matters more than proof.
Got that extremely wrong. The Klingons declared war on the Feds while military operations inside Cardassia were still going on, operations that continued up to the Dominion invasion. Remember that bit of "By Inferno's Light" where the Klingons came running back to DS9 with their tails between their legs after the Jem'Hadar booted them out of Cardassian space?
Wrong. Neither King Xrathis nor his son King Slathis was replaced; in fact it was a fairly major point that J'mpok decided to fight Slathis in a personal duel to test his resolve after the KDF took Gornar, and then made him a non-voting member of the High Council, rather than having the royal family executed per standard Klingon procedure regardless of the Undine. Some of the Gorn government officials and military commanders were replaced, yes. Not the king.
Go read the Path to 2409 again. Gornar fell in 2403. J'mpok demanded that the Federation leave the Hromi Cluster in 2404. Okeg told him to go f*ck himself in 2405. Klingons started ethnic cleansing against Fed civilians three days later.
I note a distinct lack of any notion that whatever evidence Ja'rod had gathered was delivered to Federation authorities, something that the Klingons should've thought of doing after Cardassia.
Unless maybe J'mpok just wanted a convenient pretext to attack the Gorn and didn't actually give a f*ck what the Federation thought.
Then they should've been occupying them. You don't own it unless you have boots on the ground.
Warmongers like J'mpok can always find a way to justify themselves, and J'mpok's partisans were in control of the High Council after he knocked off Martok anyway.
The Dominion claimed sovereignty over the entire galaxy, if you will recall. Is the Federation obligated to accept that claim?
And what would the Klingons have done? Oh, that's right, execute their government officials, slaughter their POWs to a man, and induct the survivors into the jegh'pu'wI, the first two of which are confirmed to have happened in the Klingon-Cardassian War and the Dominion War, respectively. At least under the Federation the Cardassians maintain political sovereignty.
What legitimate grievances? Oh, that's right, their wounded pride. They need to grow up.
Never happened. You must be thinking of the time the Klingons targeted Utopia Planitia.
Nope. They've just woken up to the fact that sometimes you have to fight dirty when your enemies refuse to do anything else.
The Klingons have zero claim to the moral high ground. What the Klingons would like you to believe and what is actually the reality on the ground are invariably two entirely different things. Try again.
To hear patrickngo tell it, results are what matters. Hmm. Looks like Klingon honor means whatever the hell is most convenient for it to mean at any given time. And people wonder why I keep hammering the point that the Klingon Empire has no honor at all.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
not impossible, its very possible if both side put down the weapons, the bravado and selfishness that plagues the whole process and then have a through in depth discussion about everything, like going on a date with a girl you have been going out with for months and then your expose yourself completely to her as a form of taking a chance on trusting her, if she does the same, there is a very good chance of a marria... an alliance i mean :P.
this can be done in a matter of months, only those who place obsticles in front of themselves are the ones who consider the situation impossible.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
.... which is pretty much true of any ethical code throughout history, including the Federation's (Section 31 and Sisko, anyone?).
*Some* Klingons have a genuine sense of honour; Martok, Gorkon, Kolos, Klag in the novels, Worf, Kang. When Ezri incited Worf to kill Gowron, she quoted Klingon principles to him; from a pro-Klingon perspective the system worked and the Empire's politics self-corrected.
Also, in the case of the Undine infiltration, the Klingons *did* present evidence to the Federation - they sent Worf to do it. Yet despite the testimony of a highly-decorated Starfleet veteran, who had a track record of backing the Federation over his own people when the Empire was in the wrong and it cost his family everything, Klingon claims were dismissed. And as a result, the pro-Federation Martok was lethally undermined. Because he was dismissed, Worf stuck with the Klingons this time.
To coin a phrase, way to break it heroes...
Now, this does not preclude the fact that J'mpok's subsequent aggression was opportunistic. But Federation diplomacy had a big part in getting him into power in the first place.
Basically already exists, actually...GLADoS says it word-for-word to Chell in Portal, amongst others (although when GLADoS says it it's not actually a Nice Job moment, though the game itself does have several)
(Also, the page quote uses Star Trek Online! Neat)
What was the Empire's "proof" of Undine infiltration, anyway? Did they actually have an undine corpse, or...?
In terms I'd say no, not with the current head of the Klingon Empire. old Pok is a bit to quick on the trigger for the Federations liking. While the point is there that when you have jerks like the Undine and the Dommion running around replacing important people and ****ing up the plumbing, you can't just go blasting people and worlds left and right in a attempt to sweep up the spies.
That's work that requires a more subtle touch, and as was already said, the Klingon empire once again proved to be the perfect dupes to touch off a interstellar war that would keep both surviving major Alpha/Beta quadrant powers busy dicking around instead of preparing for the sudden multitude of problems like the Borg and the Icons showing up to take over.
It seems that once again a lot of brave sacrifices on the Federation's part is going to be required to gain another Kithomer accords style of peace. Which hopefully this time around someone in the UFP government has a light-bulb go off and do their best to work the moderate factions of Klingon politics and keep close ties with em to prevent this from going off again.
From STOWiki:
Ja'rod (Duras' grandson) was able to capture and interrogate an Undine infiltrator which revealed it had been sent to kill and replace him.
Subsequently, Ja'rod took command of his vessel, went into Gorn space and returned with (unspecified) evidence that the Undine had taken control of the Gorn government.
So, the Klingons have / had a live Undine.
As if this was not enough - and remember that Ja'rod and Worf's houses are blood enemies - at a Gorn / Federation baseball game in 2389, one of the Gorn team was revealed to be an Undine in full view of a stadium crowd. There's a short story in "The Needs of the Many" about this.
And yet, for some reason, the Federation council still failed to accept that the Undine threat was the existential threat the Klingons understood - despite their own intelligence (from Voyager) about Undine infiltration tactics. The only remotely plausible explanations are either that the Council was paralyzed by its own Undine infiltration, or held an incredibly naive view that the Gorn could be persuaded to deal with the problem peacefully.