Peace is an illusion anyway, facilitated because of the illusion of 2 powers being equal enough in strength and having enough sway in a given area that they feel the need to cooperate more to stay in control of the territory they have and not so much for the population's sake.
Well, wait, how then do you explain the US-Canadian border, the longest undefended border in the world? America - no offense intended to Canadians, by the way - but America is overwhelmingly stronger, wealthier, more populous (literally 10:1), and basically just everything more than Canada. Yet in situations where America and Canada have butted heads over the last 100 years or so, we've always worked out things peacefully. And often Canada ends up with the better end of any deals, too...
It's not like there's nothing in Canada that America wouldn't want, after all. For example, Canada is America's largest source of foreign oil (about 15% of our total oil imports).
Back to topic, eventually the federation would beat the Klingons, either through goomba stomping or rideijg out of the ashes of the empire when they ran out of enemies to fight and destroyed themselves as for peace... Well, there's be no empire to be at war with either way at that point
The same can be said with the Federation as they stumble around on their bid to Grab Space *I mean* "Explore." They run into a lot of dangerous things out there that have brought some bad problems.
Borg?
Dominion War?
Etc.
The Federation compared to the Klingon Empire prefers peace but it finds itself in conflict and crises all the time. It's not like they can sit back and watch the Klingons batter themselves into nothing, because the Federation does a fine job of finding its own extra bit of conflicts that don't even involve the Klingons or Romulans. TOS, TNG is full of references of past wars that Starfleet has had to fight.
Hell, in ENT, what was the reason the Federation was formed to begin with?
I would like to see J'Mpok be over thrown and maybe a high chancellor worf? maybe now he becomes high chancellor and accepts the position since i think he would be perfect for laying the foundation of the empire joining the federation.
worf is too old, besides hes had his chance and gave it to martok instead. j'mpok is still very much in his prime and still very good with a bat'leth, worf wouldnt stand much of a chance assuming he still trains the way he used to on the enterprise and ds9.
if j'mpok is to end in the game it would be to iconian interference where a new leader needs to be chosen. Koren is too easily aroused by violence and too headstrong, besides women have not served on the high council since that ill fated peace mission a hundred years and a bit ago.
as stated worf is too old to lead. that leaves two potential leads, Ja'rod and S'taass.
having a Gorn leading the empire would be a full product of the empires new drive towards their allies, that they can lead the empire, then there is hope that other groups within the empire can get their chance. S'taass is more proactive then he looks and is always eager to make sure the empire gets the better deal, hes ideal for the role.
Ja'rod on the other hand, having the house of duras in power would raise exclamation marks over worfs head, but then again Ja'rod has first hand experience with new situations, being a captain and a leader of a house, he has seen the honor of having allies beside him. however he has been isolated for years and so there is no telling what the rest of the empire would think to a klingon who has not provided a substantial supply from his honor "bank" if you like.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
worf is too old, besides hes had his chance and gave it to martok instead. j'mpok is still very much in his prime and still very good with a bat'leth, worf wouldnt stand much of a chance assuming he still trains the way he used to on the enterprise and ds9.
Lolwut? Worf is 70, tops. Kor, Kang, and Koloth were still kicking TRIBBLE and taking names well into their second century.
Klingon lifespans don't work like human lifespans and J'mpok quite frankly seems older than Worf does--his hair's completely white.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
This is true, and also what i've always found irksome about Star Trek. Romulans usually handled this realistically as being genuinely upset at the Federations Insidious methods of Expansionism, and if other races noticed the radically-increasing-in-size Federation, war would become much more common for the Federation as other neighbors felt their sovereignty increasingly threatened. It also completely ignores the difficulties of multiculturalism. Of course in some episodes it seems like they can't decide if the Federation is multicultural or a giant melting-pot culture ala the United States, but i digress.
You assume that UFP increase in size radically, while Canon never stated how quick or slow UFP grow every year. Besides there has been plenty of conflicts with UFP. Klingon war and Cold war(and Romulan hostilities) in the 2200s. Romulan and UFPs relation doesn't really improved with the 50-year peacet reaty, 2340s Romulan attacked UFPs ally Klingons with probably worsen the realtion between UFP and RSE. 2350s have Cardassian and Tholian(and Romulan in the background), 2360 -70s have a bunch of conflicts. Everyone have fought with UFP at some Point.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Lolwut? Worf is 70, tops. Kor, Kang, and Koloth were still kicking TRIBBLE and taking names well into their second century.
Klingon lifespans don't work like human lifespans and J'mpok quite frankly seems older than Worf does--his hair's completely white.
old age usually brings about muscle atrophy and also lack of energy that old age brings. sure worf could defeat any random klingon but j'mpok laid down a challenge after slaying martok and no other klingon challenged him. even elderly klingons like kor and kang couldnt keep up with themselves like they used to years before, they even stated it themselves before their deaths.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
old age usually brings about muscle atrophy and also lack of energy that old age brings. sure worf could defeat any random klingon but j'mpok laid down a challenge after slaying martok and no other klingon challenged him. even elderly klingons like kor and kang couldnt keep up with themselves like they used to years before, they even stated it themselves before their deaths.
I'm not disputing that you slow down as you get older, I'm saying you're trying to apply human physiological norms to non-humans. Tuvok was a young officer back when Sulu was in command of the Excelsior and actually left the service for several decades before rejoining prior to VOY, and Klingons have a similar lifespan and aging curve to Vulcans. Sure, the Klingons Three were slowing down by "Blood Oath" (and Kor went senile later), but they were around 200 years old at the time. Worf is only middle-aged by Klingon standards; so's J'mpok.
And the reason nobody bothered to challenge J'mpok after Drex is purely political: J'mpok named B'Vat his Arbiter of Succession, and B'Vat had been a political supporter of him for years. Not surprising he would declare any challenge unlawful, and most Klingons weren't willing to try their luck and risk dishonor after J'mpok's treatment of Drex--he didn't even do him the courtesy of killing him.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm not disputing that you slow down as you get older, I'm saying you're trying to apply human physiological norms to non-humans. Tuvok was a young officer back when Sulu was in command of the Excelsior and actually left the service for several decades before rejoining prior to VOY, and Klingons have a similar lifespan and aging curve to Vulcans. Sure, the Klingons Three were slowing down by "Blood Oath" (and Kor went senile later), but they were around 200 years old at the time. Worf is only middle-aged by Klingon standards; so's J'mpok.
And the reason nobody bothered to challenge J'mpok after Drex is purely political: J'mpok named B'Vat his Arbiter of Succession, and B'Vat had been a political supporter of him for years. Not surprising he would declare any challenge unlawful, and most Klingons weren't willing to try their luck and risk dishonor after J'mpok's treatment of Drex--he didn't even do him the courtesy of killing him.
klingons live roughly 150 years without medical advancement, their only exercise consists of fighting sporadically, drunken antics, some training when they feel they need it, some klingons end up going into rituals that make their own physical siutation less then where it was, they eat meat of targ freshly cut, blood and everything, none of it screened for viruses and such, they dont see to have any consideration to taking baths or washing their hands or hair. without any real medical advancements either that i know of in the empire, they are less concerned with themselves and more with their honorable stories and they also sleep on hard surfaces which can not be good for posture either.
klingon spines maybe more renforced but they are not immune to biological attacks, muscle injuries or lacking common sense.
any good klingon wouldnt of been concerned by b'vats elderly status, and as you stated yourself it was a political move that kept the others from testing this out. makes you wonder what would of happened if there were klingons who didnt care about j'mpoks claim or b'vats elderly status. guess that specific point has reached an impasse.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I should also point out that the Romulan Republic kinda has a vested interest in getting rid of the guy: thanks to Cryptic's brain-dead alliance system, the Republic is going to get torn apart when the war starts up again.
lol i doubt that highly if anything the romulan republic will come out stronger then both less you forget romulans have a knack for manipulation if its in their best interest.
And i could see the romulan republic manipulating both sides in order to survive or even to take advantage of both sides as they pummel one another.
D'Tans' master stroke was allying with both sides this ensures neither side will attack them if one side does then the republic sides with the other vice versa.
D'Tan used simple manipulation to ensure that they dont get torn asunder by both the federation or klingon empire.
ask your self if you were in either j'mpoks or quinns shoes would you risk an all out war with both your enemy AND the romulan republic who is getting stronger all the time?
D'tan's brilliance was setting up a situation where the Empire and the Federation were competing economically for the Republic and its 'fleet so big they had to send a bunch of ships to work for Starfleet/KDF' rather than militarily, so that I suspect this sort of conversation happened a lot in the Proconsul's office:
"The Klingon Empire assisted in fortifying three colonies yesterday, Ambassador Suighara. The Republic is considering taking over security patrol duties in -"
"All right, fifteen thousand pallets of stem bolts!"
"The Romulan Republic regrets the continued hostilities between its two great allies and reiterates its commitment to peace."
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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The problem with Worf is that Worf learned everything he knows about Klingons from Federation Wikipedia. He built up this idealized version of the Empire in his head that never really existed. The great majority of Klingons would never meet Worf's high standards, and worse, wouldn't even try. The Empire is perfectly happy to use deception, guile, and trickery when needed to get what it wants.
Worf is, in short, not representative of the typical Klingon...and never has been.
The point, though, is that he could be representative of the Klingon ideal much like Emperor Kahless was/is.
Most of the Klingons we saw on screen were actively serving in the military. So of course they're going to tend to be fixated on personal glory and battle. There was also a strong sense of the ends justifying the means. Archer's trial was proof of that, and this mentality continued through the TOS era to some degree. But the idea of honor is firmly entrenched in Klingon traditions and we see that evidenced throughout TNG and DS9 where Klingon society outside the military is described in the most detail.
Well, we do know (from "Enterprise", admittedly, but we do know it) that the Klingons haven't always been dominated by their warrior caste - and, for that matter, their attitudes during the TOS period were rather different from those of the TNG and subsequent eras. So it's by no means impossible for the Empire to change.
I would go so far as to say that it is the example of Worf that gives the Empire a role-model for how it relates to the rest of the quadrant. And there's also Kahless' clone still running around trying to prove himself worthy of the Empire. He is literally a personification of the Klingon ideal, always looking for a battle worth fighting but wise enough to be able to forge an Empire out of a race of hot-blooded warriors.
It will be Klingon tradition that will allow the Empire to deal honorably with the Federation, as long as the Federation deals honorably with the Empire. The Klingons who can't or won't adapt to that worldview will simply become mercenaries and rebel warlords without honor or tradition.
EDIT: Lest I be misunderstood, I am referring to the Klingon military as being preoccupied with glory and battle. I am not referring to real military persons in general. I'm ex-military myself and I know it's all about duty.
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to the OP- YES, peace between not only Fed and KDF but Roms too.. as long as they realize that groups A-Z times a trillion are always gonna be after them, Borg, Undine, Iconians all Iconian servitors, threats abound.. "Peace" not really, perpetual war on all sides.. The Alliance members NEED each other and should all enroll into one Federation faction, the Feds are good talkers and would be a great "front" for the intelligence gathering Romulans and the guardians of the Milky Way the KDF.. All cultures serving their rolls... Smashing all opposition, learning from all cultures while infiltrating every society in the galaxy.. Win/win/win I say...
That's true, but on the other end of the spectrum the Andorians never were warriors to the exclusion of any other way of life. Klingons have to couch everything they do in terms of combat and battle, even Klingon lawyers see themselves as engaged in a battle. One has to wonder how much mental gymnastics a Klingon gardener has to put himself through to convince himself he'll end up in Sto Vo Kor - if he even can, more likely he just gardens until he becomes so neurotically concerned about Sto Vo Kor that he grabs his gardening sheers and goes and picks a fight with someone to ensure he can die honorably in battle.
Like I said, I can't see the Klingon Empire surviving in its current form, but the Klingons are extraordinarily conservative and unlikely to ever change on its own. For that to happen you'd need a situation like what the Allies did in Germany in 1945 - they have to be thoroughly beaten, and then the conquering powers have to devote significant time and energy to actively destroying their warrior culture.
(The reason why the Allies never tried to assassinate Hitler was because Hitler was viewed as a symptom of a larger problem, the problem being German militarism)
Your're basicly right, but there's a big difference imo.
German (mostly Prussian) militarism was just hundred maybe two hundred years old, while klingon Warrior culuture has become something like a substitute for religion.
In klingon culutre, militarism is much more internalised (over thousands of years), while in germany many areas people wheren't and still aren't especially fans of prussian-like behaviour, so to say.
After realizing all the cruelties that happend in germany in WWII an prior, it did not really take much afford to make people realize that it (militarism) was the wrong way all along. (not to speak of all the other dung they have been made to follow.)
Other countries did not have come to terms like the german ppl did after WWII.
(i really don't want to delve into this much more because it its 1. going too much off topic and 2. it's much too serious and not fun.)
My point is, even if the Klingon Empire would somehow be completely devestated and beaten, it would be much harder to de-militarize their culture than germany in 1945 and later.
If Klingon culture changes then this change must come from within and voluntary, maybe by slowly adapting different ethics (like the vikings did with when they became christians, not that they became much less violent but the integrated themselves into other cultures).
Maybe they slowly start realizing that cooperating is more beneficial than confrontating.
Sorry for my bad english today.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The point, though, is that he could be representative of the Klingon ideal much like Emperor Kahless was/is.
Heartly agree - Worf is not representative of Klingon honor in mainstream society, but he is a good enough representative of it. Combine that with the 'Federation' (okay, human, but he was raised on Earth) idea of honor he represents to serve as a guide to a less 'aggressive' form of honor that would be palatable to the Klingons.
Martok getting knifed probably hurt this in the short-term.
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Dominion/Borg was never a Wake-up call, in fact Federation never needed a Wake-up call. There was never any long period of Peace in Federation history. Start of 2200s we have the Klingon war and the following Cold war that lasted into 2290s-2300s.(And Romulan aggression aswell). Afte that Federation continued to have bad relationship with Romulans, the 50 year Peace treaty were signed somewhere in 2310s, but it doesn't make the bad blood between UFp and RSE go away. 2340s the Romulans attacked UFPs ally Klingon(and destroyed Ent-C) which increased tension between UFP and RSE. In the 2350s UFP fought Tholian attacks and Cardassians and cleaning up the Marquis mess. The 2360s and 70s IS well known... Wha Wake-up call? Federation never fogot who to fight, they just never fought powerful enemies like Dominion or Borg.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Permanent peace with the Klingon Empire requires four things:
1. The UFP needs to get off its high horse, stop engaging in head-in-sphincter management in response to threats from OP fluidic space aliens that apparently can't read maps or engage in deductive reasoning, and be proactive for once.
2. Jm'Poq Qang needs to be executed for his war crimes in the Korvat system and elsewhere, and a leader with more sense (i..e. Worf, son of Mogh) needs to be put in power.
3. Klingon scholars need to do an in-depth study of the teachings of Kahless, likely assisted by his clone, to refute Jm'Pok's assertion that war and battle is the only honorable thing. Kahless said that the wind does not respect a fool, after all, and the verengan Quark proved that a man can act with courage and honor without even trying to fight. Even Chancellor Gowron recognized this in the Great Hall itself! There is more to honor and glory than senseless violence.
4. The Federation and the Klingons need to work on communication. If the Klingons say "hey, we found these creepy infiltrator guys and we think they're spying on us all", the UFP needs to LISTEN. If the Federation says "hey, Klingons, don't invade those guys", the Empire needs to listen.
But first and foremost, Okeg needs to get his head out of his cloaca and Worf needs to remove Jm'Pok's from his shoulders. Qeyliss balth!
Permanent peace with the Klingon Empire requires four things:
1. The UFP needs to get off its high horse, stop engaging in head-in-sphincter management in response to threats from OP fluidic space aliens that apparently can't read maps or engage in deductive reasoning, and be proactive for once.
2. Jm'Poq Qang needs to be executed for his war crimes in the Korvat system and elsewhere, and a leader with more sense (i..e. Worf, son of Mogh) needs to be put in power.
3. Klingon scholars need to do an in-depth study of the teachings of Kahless, likely assisted by his clone, to refute Jm'Pok's assertion that war and battle is the only honorable thing. Kahless said that the wind does not respect a fool, after all, and the verengan Quark proved that a man can act with courage and honor without even trying to fight. Even Chancellor Gowron recognized this in the Great Hall itself! There is more to honor and glory than senseless violence.
4. The Federation and the Klingons need to work on communication. If the Klingons say "hey, we found these creepy infiltrator guys and we think they're spying on us all", the UFP needs to LISTEN. If the Federation says "hey, Klingons, don't invade those guys", the Empire needs to listen.
But first and foremost, Okeg needs to get his head out of his cloaca and Worf needs to remove Jm'Pok's from his shoulders. Qeyliss balth!
Very true. /10char
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Permanent peace with the Klingon Empire requires four things:
1. The UFP needs to get off its high horse, stop engaging in head-in-sphincter management in response to threats from OP fluidic space aliens that apparently can't read maps or engage in deductive reasoning, and be proactive for once.
2. Jm'Poq Qang needs to be executed for his war crimes in the Korvat system and elsewhere, and a leader with more sense (i..e. Worf, son of Mogh) needs to be put in power.
3. Klingon scholars need to do an in-depth study of the teachings of Kahless, likely assisted by his clone, to refute Jm'Pok's assertion that war and battle is the only honorable thing. Kahless said that the wind does not respect a fool, after all, and the verengan Quark proved that a man can act with courage and honor without even trying to fight. Even Chancellor Gowron recognized this in the Great Hall itself! There is more to honor and glory than senseless violence.
4. The Federation and the Klingons need to work on communication. If the Klingons say "hey, we found these creepy infiltrator guys and we think they're spying on us all", the UFP needs to LISTEN. If the Federation says "hey, Klingons, don't invade those guys", the Empire needs to listen.
But first and foremost, Okeg needs to get his head out of his cloaca and Worf needs to remove Jm'Pok's from his shoulders. Qeyliss balth!
Both sides need to find that diplomatic common ground for a permanent peace
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"Great men do not seek power; it is thrust upon them." - Worf, quoting Kahless the Unforgettable
For example, by having Jm'Poq Qang being a bloodthirsty fool in front of the galaxy, and mandating a bat'leth to the neck for accepting honorless Orion slavers without punishment and for his dishonorable deeds in the Korvat system. True Klingons do not need to forcibly evict Federation civilians. True Klingons fight soldiers, not unarmed civilians.
But Jm'Poq Qang is a dishonorable dog, and he should be punished for said dishonor, just as Torg, son of Kormog, was punished for his dishonor, treachery, and stupidity.
Barring a fundamental change in one of their ideologies, no. Even if the alliance survived the aftermath of the Iconian conflict, eventually the Klingons will do something the Feds don't like and tensions will become strained again. Eventually hardliners will press the High Council to get rid of the annoying neighbors, and war will break out again.
It happened in DS9, it happened in STO, it will happen again.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
What is necessary is for the Federation to recognise Klingon grievances - the war in DS9 started over Archanis - this one started over Regulus. To Starfleet, these are merely colonies with useful resources and thousands of Federation citizens, but to the Klingons these planets are sacred. Just as the French were willing to send millions of their own troops to die to defend Verdun, the Klingons would pay the same price for these worlds.
An accomodation has to be made to allow Klingon enclaves on these worlds.
Oh, also, the Federation needs to actually pay attention when their allies tell them one of their neighbours is being controlled by an outside force against them both. They also need to understand the weight Klingons place on alliances. If they can't commit to the same level, then peace will be near-impossible.
Of course, permanent peace is fundamentally impossible. Attitudes will not be the same in 100 years. 100 years ago, Russia and the United States were good freinds and Britain and Germany blood enemies. Today, the opposite of both is true.
What is necessary is for the Federation to recognise Klingon grievances - the war in DS9 started over Archanis - this one started over Regulus. To Starfleet, these are merely colonies with useful resources and thousands of Federation citizens, but to the Klingons these planets are sacred. Just as the French were willing to send millions of their own troops to die to defend Verdun, the Klingons would pay the same price for these worlds.
An accomodation has to be made to allow Klingon enclaves on these worlds.
Oh, also, the Federation needs to actually pay attention when their allies tell them one of their neighbours is being controlled by an outside force against them both. They also need to understand the weight Klingons place on alliances. If they can't commit to the same level, then peace will be near-impossible.
Of course, permanent peace is fundamentally impossible. Attitudes will not be the same in 100 years. 100 years ago, Russia and the United States were good freinds and Britain and Germany blood enemies. Today, the opposite of both is true.
Well said. This is another angle that needs to be considered.
Barring a fundamental change in one of their ideologies, no. Even if the alliance survived the aftermath of the Iconian conflict, eventually the Klingons will do something the Feds don't like and tensions will become strained again. Eventually hardliners will press the High Council to get rid of the annoying neighbors, and war will break out again.
It happened in DS9, it happened in STO, it will happen again.
As I mentioned to Worffan in a recent conversation, what happens when the Federation runs out of mutual enemies against which they can redirect the Klingons?
The current "peace" is unsustainable, end of story. One of these days, whether it be a year from now, a hundred, or a thousand, the Federation is going to be forced to change the nature of their opponent. The only way it stops is either the Federation applies soft power to marginalize the Klingon hardliners and empower moderates like Martok's people (which might explain the "Azati Prime" timeline where the Klingons joined the Federation in the end), or, worst case scenario, the Federation goes fully on the offensive, fights them like they fought the Dominion, and wins.
They have the resources for it -- Star Charts puts the Federation at several times the size of the Klingon Empire, with equivalent population and raw material advantages -- it's finding the will that will be the problem.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What is necessary is for the Federation to recognise Klingon grievances - the war in DS9 started over Archanis - this one started over Regulus. To Starfleet, these are merely colonies with useful resources and thousands of Federation citizens, but to the Klingons these planets are sacred. Just as the French were willing to send millions of their own troops to Tdie to defend Verdun, the Klingons would pay the same price for these worlds.
An accomodation has to be made to allow Klingon enclaves on these worlds.
Oh, also, the Federation needs to actually pay attention when their allies tell them one of their neighbours is being controlled by an outside force against them both. They also need to understand the weight Klingons place on alliances. If they can't commit to the same level, then peace will be near-impossible.
Of course, permanent peace is fundamentally impossible. Attitudes will not be the same in 100 years. 100 years ago, Russia and the United States were good freinds and Britain and Germany blood enemies. Today, the opposite of both is true.
Stop right there. You fundamentally misunderstand both conflicts.
DS9 war. Federation calls bullsh*t on the Klingons' wild-TRIBBLE claim that there was no possible way for a civilian revolt to overthrow a military government, ergo there were changelings involved. Klingons pull out of Khitomer Accords and invade Cardassia anyway, then attacks the Federation when they give sanctuary to the Detapa Council. Everything after that falls under the heading of, "well, we're at war anyway, why not try and conquer some planets?"
The Klingons' casus belli looks more to me like their military rulers didn't want their commoners getting uppity ideas, rather like Putin started dicking around in Ukraine after the Orange Revolution to keep common Russians from seeing a more free government on their border. Oh, and guess what: the Klingons were the ones who the Founders had infiltrated.
STO war. Practically a redux of the DS9 war. Federation calls bullsh*t on the Klingons' claims that the Undine had infiltrated the Gorn. Klingons pull out of Khitomer Accords and invade the Hegemony anyway, then attack the Federation because J'mpok decided he wanted some new planets and f*ck the fact they'd been Federation-owned for centuries.
Klingons' casus belli against the Federation is a blatant land grab and has absolutely f*ck-all to do with the Undine. The Federation is fully justified in fighting back. Oh, and guess what? One of the Fed missions shows the Klingon military is infiltrated, too. The Klingons have no more clue what they're doing than the Feds do, and the fact that they were shown after-the-fact to be right about the Gorn has absolutely nothing to do with the war with the Federation.
The Klingons have no legitimate grievances; they were the aggressors both times. And if they wanted the Feds as allies they should've thought more extensively about the fact that the Federation never goes to war unless there is no other option, and factored that into their efforts to get them on board.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
Well, wait, how then do you explain the US-Canadian border, the longest undefended border in the world? America - no offense intended to Canadians, by the way - but America is overwhelmingly stronger, wealthier, more populous (literally 10:1), and basically just everything more than Canada. Yet in situations where America and Canada have butted heads over the last 100 years or so, we've always worked out things peacefully. And often Canada ends up with the better end of any deals, too...
It's not like there's nothing in Canada that America wouldn't want, after all. For example, Canada is America's largest source of foreign oil (about 15% of our total oil imports).
The same can be said with the Federation as they stumble around on their bid to Grab Space *I mean* "Explore." They run into a lot of dangerous things out there that have brought some bad problems.
Borg?
Dominion War?
Etc.
The Federation compared to the Klingon Empire prefers peace but it finds itself in conflict and crises all the time. It's not like they can sit back and watch the Klingons batter themselves into nothing, because the Federation does a fine job of finding its own extra bit of conflicts that don't even involve the Klingons or Romulans. TOS, TNG is full of references of past wars that Starfleet has had to fight.
Hell, in ENT, what was the reason the Federation was formed to begin with?
worf is too old, besides hes had his chance and gave it to martok instead. j'mpok is still very much in his prime and still very good with a bat'leth, worf wouldnt stand much of a chance assuming he still trains the way he used to on the enterprise and ds9.
if j'mpok is to end in the game it would be to iconian interference where a new leader needs to be chosen. Koren is too easily aroused by violence and too headstrong, besides women have not served on the high council since that ill fated peace mission a hundred years and a bit ago.
as stated worf is too old to lead. that leaves two potential leads, Ja'rod and S'taass.
having a Gorn leading the empire would be a full product of the empires new drive towards their allies, that they can lead the empire, then there is hope that other groups within the empire can get their chance. S'taass is more proactive then he looks and is always eager to make sure the empire gets the better deal, hes ideal for the role.
Ja'rod on the other hand, having the house of duras in power would raise exclamation marks over worfs head, but then again Ja'rod has first hand experience with new situations, being a captain and a leader of a house, he has seen the honor of having allies beside him. however he has been isolated for years and so there is no telling what the rest of the empire would think to a klingon who has not provided a substantial supply from his honor "bank" if you like.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Klingon lifespans don't work like human lifespans and J'mpok quite frankly seems older than Worf does--his hair's completely white.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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You assume that UFP increase in size radically, while Canon never stated how quick or slow UFP grow every year. Besides there has been plenty of conflicts with UFP. Klingon war and Cold war(and Romulan hostilities) in the 2200s. Romulan and UFPs relation doesn't really improved with the 50-year peacet reaty, 2340s Romulan attacked UFPs ally Klingons with probably worsen the realtion between UFP and RSE. 2350s have Cardassian and Tholian(and Romulan in the background), 2360 -70s have a bunch of conflicts. Everyone have fought with UFP at some Point.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
old age usually brings about muscle atrophy and also lack of energy that old age brings. sure worf could defeat any random klingon but j'mpok laid down a challenge after slaying martok and no other klingon challenged him. even elderly klingons like kor and kang couldnt keep up with themselves like they used to years before, they even stated it themselves before their deaths.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'm not disputing that you slow down as you get older, I'm saying you're trying to apply human physiological norms to non-humans. Tuvok was a young officer back when Sulu was in command of the Excelsior and actually left the service for several decades before rejoining prior to VOY, and Klingons have a similar lifespan and aging curve to Vulcans. Sure, the Klingons Three were slowing down by "Blood Oath" (and Kor went senile later), but they were around 200 years old at the time. Worf is only middle-aged by Klingon standards; so's J'mpok.
And the reason nobody bothered to challenge J'mpok after Drex is purely political: J'mpok named B'Vat his Arbiter of Succession, and B'Vat had been a political supporter of him for years. Not surprising he would declare any challenge unlawful, and most Klingons weren't willing to try their luck and risk dishonor after J'mpok's treatment of Drex--he didn't even do him the courtesy of killing him.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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klingons live roughly 150 years without medical advancement, their only exercise consists of fighting sporadically, drunken antics, some training when they feel they need it, some klingons end up going into rituals that make their own physical siutation less then where it was, they eat meat of targ freshly cut, blood and everything, none of it screened for viruses and such, they dont see to have any consideration to taking baths or washing their hands or hair. without any real medical advancements either that i know of in the empire, they are less concerned with themselves and more with their honorable stories and they also sleep on hard surfaces which can not be good for posture either.
klingon spines maybe more renforced but they are not immune to biological attacks, muscle injuries or lacking common sense.
any good klingon wouldnt of been concerned by b'vats elderly status, and as you stated yourself it was a political move that kept the others from testing this out. makes you wonder what would of happened if there were klingons who didnt care about j'mpoks claim or b'vats elderly status. guess that specific point has reached an impasse.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
lol i doubt that highly if anything the romulan republic will come out stronger then both less you forget romulans have a knack for manipulation if its in their best interest.
And i could see the romulan republic manipulating both sides in order to survive or even to take advantage of both sides as they pummel one another.
D'Tans' master stroke was allying with both sides this ensures neither side will attack them if one side does then the republic sides with the other vice versa.
D'Tan used simple manipulation to ensure that they dont get torn asunder by both the federation or klingon empire.
ask your self if you were in either j'mpoks or quinns shoes would you risk an all out war with both your enemy AND the romulan republic who is getting stronger all the time?
"The Klingon Empire assisted in fortifying three colonies yesterday, Ambassador Suighara. The Republic is considering taking over security patrol duties in -"
"All right, fifteen thousand pallets of stem bolts!"
"The Romulan Republic regrets the continued hostilities between its two great allies and reiterates its commitment to peace."
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They're still very much Romulans. The Republic is simply being smarter about it than the Star Empire ever was.
The point, though, is that he could be representative of the Klingon ideal much like Emperor Kahless was/is.
Most of the Klingons we saw on screen were actively serving in the military. So of course they're going to tend to be fixated on personal glory and battle. There was also a strong sense of the ends justifying the means. Archer's trial was proof of that, and this mentality continued through the TOS era to some degree. But the idea of honor is firmly entrenched in Klingon traditions and we see that evidenced throughout TNG and DS9 where Klingon society outside the military is described in the most detail.
I would go so far as to say that it is the example of Worf that gives the Empire a role-model for how it relates to the rest of the quadrant. And there's also Kahless' clone still running around trying to prove himself worthy of the Empire. He is literally a personification of the Klingon ideal, always looking for a battle worth fighting but wise enough to be able to forge an Empire out of a race of hot-blooded warriors.
It will be Klingon tradition that will allow the Empire to deal honorably with the Federation, as long as the Federation deals honorably with the Empire. The Klingons who can't or won't adapt to that worldview will simply become mercenaries and rebel warlords without honor or tradition.
EDIT: Lest I be misunderstood, I am referring to the Klingon military as being preoccupied with glory and battle. I am not referring to real military persons in general. I'm ex-military myself and I know it's all about duty.
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German (mostly Prussian) militarism was just hundred maybe two hundred years old, while klingon Warrior culuture has become something like a substitute for religion.
In klingon culutre, militarism is much more internalised (over thousands of years), while in germany many areas people wheren't and still aren't especially fans of prussian-like behaviour, so to say.
After realizing all the cruelties that happend in germany in WWII an prior, it did not really take much afford to make people realize that it (militarism) was the wrong way all along. (not to speak of all the other dung they have been made to follow.)
Other countries did not have come to terms like the german ppl did after WWII.
(i really don't want to delve into this much more because it its 1. going too much off topic and 2. it's much too serious and not fun.)
My point is, even if the Klingon Empire would somehow be completely devestated and beaten, it would be much harder to de-militarize their culture than germany in 1945 and later.
If Klingon culture changes then this change must come from within and voluntary, maybe by slowly adapting different ethics (like the vikings did with when they became christians, not that they became much less violent but the integrated themselves into other cultures).
Maybe they slowly start realizing that cooperating is more beneficial than confrontating.
Sorry for my bad english today.
Heartly agree - Worf is not representative of Klingon honor in mainstream society, but he is a good enough representative of it. Combine that with the 'Federation' (okay, human, but he was raised on Earth) idea of honor he represents to serve as a guide to a less 'aggressive' form of honor that would be palatable to the Klingons.
Martok getting knifed probably hurt this in the short-term.
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Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
1. The UFP needs to get off its high horse, stop engaging in head-in-sphincter management in response to threats from OP fluidic space aliens that apparently can't read maps or engage in deductive reasoning, and be proactive for once.
2. Jm'Poq Qang needs to be executed for his war crimes in the Korvat system and elsewhere, and a leader with more sense (i..e. Worf, son of Mogh) needs to be put in power.
3. Klingon scholars need to do an in-depth study of the teachings of Kahless, likely assisted by his clone, to refute Jm'Pok's assertion that war and battle is the only honorable thing. Kahless said that the wind does not respect a fool, after all, and the verengan Quark proved that a man can act with courage and honor without even trying to fight. Even Chancellor Gowron recognized this in the Great Hall itself! There is more to honor and glory than senseless violence.
4. The Federation and the Klingons need to work on communication. If the Klingons say "hey, we found these creepy infiltrator guys and we think they're spying on us all", the UFP needs to LISTEN. If the Federation says "hey, Klingons, don't invade those guys", the Empire needs to listen.
But first and foremost, Okeg needs to get his head out of his cloaca and Worf needs to remove Jm'Pok's from his shoulders. Qeyliss balth!
/10char
Both sides need to find that diplomatic common ground for a permanent peace
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"Great men do not seek power; it is thrust upon them." - Worf, quoting Kahless the Unforgettable
For example, by having Jm'Poq Qang being a bloodthirsty fool in front of the galaxy, and mandating a bat'leth to the neck for accepting honorless Orion slavers without punishment and for his dishonorable deeds in the Korvat system. True Klingons do not need to forcibly evict Federation civilians. True Klingons fight soldiers, not unarmed civilians.
But Jm'Poq Qang is a dishonorable dog, and he should be punished for said dishonor, just as Torg, son of Kormog, was punished for his dishonor, treachery, and stupidity.
It happened in DS9, it happened in STO, it will happen again.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
An accomodation has to be made to allow Klingon enclaves on these worlds.
Oh, also, the Federation needs to actually pay attention when their allies tell them one of their neighbours is being controlled by an outside force against them both. They also need to understand the weight Klingons place on alliances. If they can't commit to the same level, then peace will be near-impossible.
Of course, permanent peace is fundamentally impossible. Attitudes will not be the same in 100 years. 100 years ago, Russia and the United States were good freinds and Britain and Germany blood enemies. Today, the opposite of both is true.
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Well said. This is another angle that needs to be considered.
As I mentioned to Worffan in a recent conversation, what happens when the Federation runs out of mutual enemies against which they can redirect the Klingons?
The current "peace" is unsustainable, end of story. One of these days, whether it be a year from now, a hundred, or a thousand, the Federation is going to be forced to change the nature of their opponent. The only way it stops is either the Federation applies soft power to marginalize the Klingon hardliners and empower moderates like Martok's people (which might explain the "Azati Prime" timeline where the Klingons joined the Federation in the end), or, worst case scenario, the Federation goes fully on the offensive, fights them like they fought the Dominion, and wins.
They have the resources for it -- Star Charts puts the Federation at several times the size of the Klingon Empire, with equivalent population and raw material advantages -- it's finding the will that will be the problem.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Stop right there. You fundamentally misunderstand both conflicts.
The Klingons' casus belli looks more to me like their military rulers didn't want their commoners getting uppity ideas, rather like Putin started dicking around in Ukraine after the Orange Revolution to keep common Russians from seeing a more free government on their border. Oh, and guess what: the Klingons were the ones who the Founders had infiltrated.
Klingons' casus belli against the Federation is a blatant land grab and has absolutely f*ck-all to do with the Undine. The Federation is fully justified in fighting back. Oh, and guess what? One of the Fed missions shows the Klingon military is infiltrated, too.
The Klingons have no legitimate grievances; they were the aggressors both times. And if they wanted the Feds as allies they should've thought more extensively about the fact that the Federation never goes to war unless there is no other option, and factored that into their efforts to get them on board.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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