Is permanent peace between the Klingon Empire and the Federation even possible?

rambowdoubledash

I was tempted to write this up in-character as a report prepared for Admiral Quinn by one of my toons, but I think I actually want a real discussion on the subject.

The Klingons were originally conceived to be antithetical to the Federation, the USSR to the Federation's United States. And...let's be honest with ourselves, they still kind of are, only less "USSR" and more "Samurai Hordes," an Imperial Japan that never made it out of the Tokugawa Shogunate and has access to warp travel. The Federation values thought, the Empire, action. The Federation abhors violence, the Klingon Empire reveres it. The Federation believes in freedom for all, the Klingons believe in being the most powerful race in the cosmos with everyone else firmly beneath them.

Even in the comparatively egalitarian Empire of Star Trek Online, the non-Klingon species of the Empire are either conquered or hired, with no true loyalty to the Empire itself. The Klingons utilize slave labor, torture, and threats to get what they want. Everything they do is couched in mysticism - I would say arcane mysticism, but apparently the Fek'Ihri are real to some greater or lesser extent - where the Federation prefers science.

Even periods of peace between the Federation and the Empire have only ever been tenuous. The Khitomer Accords were on the verge of breaking prior to the whole business in 2344 at Narendra III (after just 51 years - within the lifetime of many of those who signed the Accords), and after that broke again after the Klingon invasion of Cardassian space in 2372, only 22 years later (followed by a brief war with the Federation from 72-73). Even after the Dominion War ended in 2375, the Klingons waited only another twenty-odd years to pull out of the Khitomer Accords once more, and begin open war with the Federation in 2409.

More than that, in many ways B'Vat was right about the Klingons - the Empire that does not have external enemies will turn on itself, because the Klingons would rather fight other Klingons than not fight anyone at all. The Great Houses have independent starfleets that can attack each other at will - imagine a similar situation in Starfleet if each member world retained its own local navy, if Vulcan and Andor regularly traded blows with each other.

It just seems to me that any kind of permanent peace with the Klingons is impossible. Maybe if their characterization in Star Trek VI had stuck around - as warriors, yes, but more in the vein of Prussian drawing rooms than Japanese bushi - but as it stands, I just can't see what it would take short of an actual effort to, as Brigadier Kerla was so afriad of, destroy Klingon culture and replace it with one more compatible with Federation ideology as the Allies did in Germany post-WWII - an effort which the Federation would never undertake willingly.

So basically, the question is this. With the Iconians having revealed themselves, the Federation and the Klingons are at peace in 2410. But how long is this peace likely to last? How long until the next war? And is there anything the Federation can do to break this cycle?

grandnaguszek1

Hmm...probably not. A whole bunch of stuck up pacifists crammed in a quadrant with a whole bunch of crazy war mongers can only go well:rolleyes:.

generalmoco

Just get a Fleet Admiral to try and shoot a Dahar Master and you got yourself a war..... big war.....

kojirohellfire

Well, if you believe Enterprise and its future timeline with the Enterprise-J, it is. But since it was Enterprise, take it with a grain of salt.

mirrorchaos

kojirohellfire wrote: »

Well, if you believe Enterprise and its future timeline with the Enterprise-J, it is. But since it was Enterprise, take it with a grain of salt.

doesnt matter, its canon material. the klingons will join the federation, its just a matter of what the defining moment was that made the klingons realise that being with the federation as one larger empire was in their own best interests. could it be the iconian invasion where the federation lay down everything for the klingons? a debt of honor the klingons could never possibly repay in blood and deeds, but something significantly more earth shattering as it were, like a full of integrated alliance?

starswordc

I dunno about peace in general but this "peace" in particular is only going to last until the Iconians buy the farm. Permanent peace can't happen as long as J'mpok's around. And I quote:

The Path to 2409, Volume 28, Chapter 1 wrote:

J'mpok refused. "No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts," J'mpok told the High Council. "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time."

"Conflict makes us Klingon. Combat makes us strong. I write my story with the my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies."

And there definitely can't be peace as long as the Klingons are still complicit in the Orion slave trade.

I should also point out that the Romulan Republic kinda has a vested interest in getting rid of the guy: thanks to Cryptic's brain-dead alliance system, the Republic is going to get torn apart when the war starts up again.

adamkafei

Actually I think if the Federation were to keep it's nose out of things it has nothing to do with then there could be peace with the Empire. The Klingons did sod all wrong invading Cardassian space, heck if the Federation hadn't stuck it's nose in the Klingons might have nipped the whole Dominion war in the bud before it became an issue, if the Federation had supported them it would have strengthened the Alliance with much lower losses in ships and personnel.

Same with the Gorn invasion, that was Klingon business, not Federation, the Feds should have stayed out of it, I think J'mpok would have overlooked the Federation's refusal to acknowledge the Undine threat had they not condemned his handling of it.

Now I can understand that the Federation don't want to let the empire get too big but that would have been handled best by mutual defence agreements with the Romulans and the Cardassians rather than inviting war with the Klingons.

Think about it this way, if it were the other way around, we would still be at war.

thecosmic1

If you believe the Organians, then yes, it is possible.

xarynn2058

adamkafei wrote: »

Actually I think if the Federation were to keep it's nose out of things it has nothing to do with then there could be peace with the Empire. The Klingons did sod all wrong invading Cardassian space, heck if the Federation hadn't stuck it's nose in the Klingons might have nipped the whole Dominion war in the bud before it became an issue, if the Federation had supported them it would have strengthened the Alliance with much lower losses in ships and personnel.

But it didn't work like that. A Founder replaced Martok and influenced Gowron to attack the Cardassians on the pretext that no civilian based coup could overthrow a military government without Dominion support. To a self respecting Klingon warrior it seemed a logical argument even if it was a fabrication.

The Klingons then pounded the Cardassians into a position where their only diplomatic option was an "alliance" with the Dominion (the Federation tried to stay neutral, it was Gowron who abandoned the Khitomer accords and the Cardassians had nothing to offer the Romulans). This provided the Dominion with exactly what they wanted, a secure foothold in the Alpha Quadrant.

So all the Klingon war with Cardassia did was speed along the Dominion agenda. They were duped. Nothing in that campaign could have prevented the Dominion war it's entire corrupted purpose was to build its foundation.


As for the Empire as a whole. I'm reminded of the intro comments from the old Birth of the Federation strategy game: "Never leave the Empire without an enemy."
A warrior culture without a war is a dangerously unpredictable thing because bored warriors will go looking for a "good" fight wherever they can find one.
For a stable Empire to be at peace with the Federation will have to be at the expense of some other faction. Fortunately(?) the Iconians appear to be offering plenty of opportunity for "Glorious Battle". So for now at least, the Empire has a target other than their historical foes.

theraven2378

This is just the calm before the storm, you've got 2 superpowers with a shared border and there is going to be tension, Once this Iconian business is over the tensions will boil over into another destructive conflict.

For the moment the Federation and Klingons are allies but I could see another Federation/Klingon cold war happening at least until one side makes the move that turns a cold war hot.

gulberat

I think that as long as the Klingons maintain their ways of conquest, there can be no true peace. All the Federation can do to maintain the illusion thereof is get a treaty on their border but turn a blind eye to all that the Klingons do to everyone else. The Feds have simply been appeasing neighborhood bullies just like they tried to do with the Cardassians. Any peace is built on a house of cards.

I have come to think that while Admiral Cartwright and Colonel West were completely wrong for the sneaky way they went about it, the Federation missed an opportunity after Praxis to really press the Klingons hard--hard enough to force an end to their ways of conquest. It's not the "nice Federation" approach to kick someone while they're down, but I think it would have spared a lot of pain and bloodshed in the long run. :-/

antonine3258

I think the Empire in its present form prevents a long-term peace. The Empire will war with itself given no other options, and the collapse of the Romulan Empire removed the 'shadowy mutual enemy' on their shared UFP/Klingon border.

Hopefully, the warrior bias in the form of 'honor as a resource to be earned' will eventually collapse. You can be a cultural respecting warrior ideals within the UFP framework (Andorians are the most obvious example) and Worf synergized the beliefs by combining the human 'internal' ideals of honor as a code with the Klingon example where it is 'granted' to be admired effectively on both sides of the border.

I guess I'm saying the Empire needs to grow up a little and have more confidence in themselves without attacking everyone.

mirrorchaos

adamkafei wrote: »

Actually I think if the Federation were to keep it's nose out of things it has nothing to do with then there could be peace with the Empire. The Klingons did sod all wrong invading Cardassian space, heck if the Federation hadn't stuck it's nose in the Klingons might have nipped the whole Dominion war in the bud before it became an issue, if the Federation had supported them it would have strengthened the Alliance with much lower losses in ships and personnel.

Same with the Gorn invasion, that was Klingon business, not Federation, the Feds should have stayed out of it, I think J'mpok would have overlooked the Federation's refusal to acknowledge the Undine threat had they not condemned his handling of it.

Now I can understand that the Federation don't want to let the empire get too big but that would have been handled best by mutual defence agreements with the Romulans and the Cardassians rather than inviting war with the Klingons.

Think about it this way, if it were the other way around, we would still be at war.

the klingons were acting out of fear the cardassian government had been taken over by the dominion, without any proof and to make matters worse they invaded almost unopposed to deliberately interfer in another empires governance. not only did the claims turn out to be false so completely but it weakened the cardassian empire enough...

on one hand you could state the klingons did the right thing in a way, if the cardassians were not weakened, the dominion may have overran the alpha quadrant before anyone was ready, including a full strength cardassian ally.

on the other hand the klingons had nothing, not even a legitimate reason, it was the klingons that should of kept their noses out until they had hard proof first.

it was that lack of proof that kept the federation from supporting the klingons in the first place along with the fact the klingons were not sharing information to their allies in the federation. the federation saw the invasion once they knew, as an unprovoked invasion without sufficient reason.

why the klingons saw this as an act of betrayal? it could of only come from gowron, who was known to be unhinged as far as a klingon is concerned and this unknown changling general, martok.
Gowron always had his own reasons, mostly to try see himself as a better man in the eyes of every klingon which was later confirmed when he snatched martoks honor from him to lead the war effort, his ambition was his own problem as well, gowron has always been short sighted with things that dont concern him, the federation was one of them despite picard and sisko trying to help him see reason at times. even worf had to state that gowron only sees reason when an ally and an enemy are telling him the same thing.

you have to look at all the coverage and the people involved, but specifically to the leader who initiated the conflicts, because all i see is bile in your quote.

k20vtec

gulberat wrote: »

I think that as long as the Klingons maintain their ways of conquest, there can be no true peace. All the Federation can do to maintain the illusion thereof is get a treaty on their border but turn a blind eye to all that the Klingons do to everyone else. The Feds have simply been appeasing neighborhood bullies just like they tried to do with the Cardassians. Any peace is built on a house of cards.

I have come to think that while Admiral Cartwright and Colonel West were completely wrong for the sneaky way they went about it, the Federation missed an opportunity after Praxis to really press the Klingons hard--hard enough to force an end to their ways of conquest. It's not the "nice Federation" approach to kick someone while they're down, but I think it would have spared a lot of pain and bloodshed in the long run. :-/

I tthink they kind of lost the chance when Klingon High Chancellors ship was shot... Besides, end their way of conquest? Their entire cultuer is built on conquest and so on.

mirrorchaos

back during the enterprise era archer was represented by a klingon lawyer who explained that at the time the empire was changing from a once civilized empire where honor was important but so was the ideals they had pre militaristic era. i think the klingons may have had to change their ways, while klingons are slow to change, they eventually get the idea. but the empire is a slogan as martok once stated, but corruption seems to be a constant. all the empire would need is a leader who supported a more conservative reform, less aggressive, more open to new ideas and it can happen. their value system may change, not right away, these things are hard for klingons who steep themselves religiously into these practices.

artan42

Yes, there will be a permanent peace, when the Klingons are absorbed into the Federation in the 31st century.

mirrorchaos

artan42 wrote: »

Yes, there will be a permanent peace, when the Klingons are absorbed into the Federation in the 31st century.

they were absorbed a lot sooner then that, by several hundred years. i think it was the mid 2500's if i remember it right.

rambowdoubledash

antonine3258 wrote: »

Worf

The problem with Worf is that Worf learned everything he knows about Klingons from Federation Wikipedia. He built up this idealized version of the Empire in his head that never really existed. The great majority of Klingons would never meet Worf's high standards, and worse, wouldn't even try. The Empire is perfectly happy to use deception, guile, and trickery when needed to get what it wants.

Worf is, in short, not representative of the typical Klingon...and never has been.

gulberat

I consider the Klingons' actions in '72 to have been completely wrong. By attacking the Cardassian Union wrongfully, especially as the Cardassians were beginning to experiment with a less oppressive form of government, they allowed the Dominion to gain a major beachhead in he Alpha Quadrant. The war would have been quite a different matter had the Dominion not already had pre-established supply lines and infrastructure established on our side of the wormhole as opposed to the Dominion being forced to fight over a tiny choke point...and most likely against ALL Alpha Quadrant powers right from the start, instead of the AQ having weakened itself with infighting.

antonine3258

rambowdoubledash wrote: »

The problem with Worf is that Worf learned everything he knows about Klingons from Federation Wikipedia. He built up this idealized version of the Empire in his head that never really existed. The great majority of Klingons would never meet Worf's high standards, and worse, wouldn't even try. The Empire is perfectly happy to use deception, guile, and trickery when needed to get what it wants.

Worf is, in short, not representative of the typical Klingon...and never has been.

I agree

I was arguing Worf as an ideal or example of a different form of honor than that practiced currently by the Klingon Empire.

yreodred

Maybe somewhen in the future Klingon houses will obliterate each other and the empire will only consist of some scattered and weakend houses, unable to survive on their own.
In such a state a enemy invasion could be the death blow to the Klingon Empire.

Maybe then the remaining Klingon houses and colonies will join the federation in order to survive.


But on the other side the klingons where not the only military minded race that joined the federation, the Andorians wheren't tree huggers also.
Just look at humanity, obviously cultures minds can change in Star Trek universe, maybe klingons change too to a certain degree.

rambowdoubledash

yreodred wrote: »

But on the other side the klingons where not the only military minded race that joined the federation, the Andorians wheren't tree huggers also.

That's true, but on the other end of the spectrum the Andorians never were warriors to the exclusion of any other way of life. Klingons have to couch everything they do in terms of combat and battle, even Klingon lawyers see themselves as engaged in a battle. One has to wonder how much mental gymnastics a Klingon gardener has to put himself through to convince himself he'll end up in Sto Vo Kor - if he even can, more likely he just gardens until he becomes so neurotically concerned about Sto Vo Kor that he grabs his gardening sheers and goes and picks a fight with someone to ensure he can die honorably in battle.

Like I said, I can't see the Klingon Empire surviving in its current form, but the Klingons are extraordinarily conservative and unlikely to ever change on its own. For that to happen you'd need a situation like what the Allies did in Germany in 1945 - they have to be thoroughly beaten, and then the conquering powers have to devote significant time and energy to actively destroying their warrior culture.

(The reason why the Allies never tried to assassinate Hitler was because Hitler was viewed as a symptom of a larger problem, the problem being German militarism)

shevet

Well, we do know (from "Enterprise", admittedly, but we do know it) that the Klingons haven't always been dominated by their warrior caste - and, for that matter, their attitudes during the TOS period were rather different from those of the TNG and subsequent eras. So it's by no means impossible for the Empire to change.

And one of the strengths of the Federation is its willingness to take other cultures on their own terms. If Klingon society ever morphs into something the Federation can work with, the Feds will be ready.

(Besides... are they actually superpowers? It seems, from the current game situation, that Federation and Empire alike are very small potatoes when a real galactic power shows up. In the face of a universe which is big enough to contain Iconians or worse, intelligent cooperation must have its appeal for even the most belligerent of warrior cultures.)

jonsills

It was also pretty heavily implied, in the Klingon War arc on the Fed side, that B'vat was the one really pushing the idea that the Empire had to be at war with the Federation, and J'mpok went along with the idea (probably because from a Klingon POV, it sounds reasonable). Without B'vat constantly dinning in his ears, however, J'mpok might be more amenable to discussion.

jorantomalak

The only way i see a lasting peace between the federation and the klingon empire is if they are united together under a common goal and against a common foe that threatenes the universe.

I just described the iconian war ......which might be how we get to the point the klingon empire joins the federation after all the undine almost destroyed qo'nos if not for the federation and the rom republic.

Its been proven thus far the klingon empire is far weaker then they would want to admit.

mirrorchaos

jorantomalak wrote: »

The only way i see a lasting peace between the federation and the klingon empire is if they are united together under a common goal and against a common foe that threatenes the universe.

I just described the iconian war ......which might be how we get to the point the klingon empire joins the federation after all the undine almost destroyed qo'nos if not for the federation and the rom republic.

Its been proven thus far the klingon empire is far weaker then they would want to admit.

klingon empire is only as weak as its leaders, j'mpok isnt weak but he isnt terribly good at coming up with his own ideas either to lead the empire. historically j'mpok has been lead around on a dog lead by others and taking it as it comes, but its implied through dialogue that j'npok is also no fan of the federation either until j'mpok saw federation honor save qo'nos from a creul fate.

jorantomalak

mirrorchaos wrote: »

klingon empire is only as weak as its leaders, j'mpok isnt weak but he isnt terribly good at coming up with his own ideas either to lead the empire. historically j'mpok has been lead around on a dog lead by others and taking it as it comes, but its implied through dialogue that j'npok is also no fan of the federation either until j'mpok saw federation honor save qo'nos from a creul fate.

I agree with you on J'Mpok he isnt the most competent leader but if you look at the klingon story arc i keep getting a sense of a empire in decline.

It seems as if the klingon fleets are somehow weaker i expected more from them when we all fought for qo'nos but for a fight of that magnitude not as many klingon ships showed as i would expect.

Then again they could be depleted since J'Mpoks rush to war and conquest has taxed the KDF to the extremes.

I would like to see J'Mpok be over thrown and maybe a high chancellor worf? maybe now he becomes high chancellor and accepts the position since i think he would be perfect for laying the foundation of the empire joining the federation.

fatman592

If we're talking TOS type Klingons then I'd say sure, an understanding could be reached. If we're talking space viking Klingons then I'd say sure, they will be "absorbed" by the Federation after centuries of needless internal fighting. TOS Klingons would have remained sovereign, TNG forward Klingons are doomed to subjugation.

Either way, I think it should be clear that all the enemies the Federation encountered were meant to be incorporated into the Federation, at least from Roddenberry's perspective. In the STO storyline we're remarkably close to Vulcan and Romulan reunification - absorption of the RR into the Federation. We're liberating Borg left and right. The Klingons are essentially tools of the Federation in the coming war with the Iconians (or their Heralds).

zyrioun

fatman592 wrote: »

If we're talking TOS type Klingons then I'd say sure, an understanding could be reached. If we're talking space viking Klingons then I'd say sure, they will be "absorbed" by the Federation after centuries of needless internal fighting. TOS Klingons would have remained sovereign, TNG forward Klingons are doomed to subjugation.

Either way, I think it should be clear that all the enemies the Federation encountered were meant to be incorporated into the Federation, at least from Roddenberry's perspective. In the STO storyline we're remarkably close to Vulcan and Romulan reunification - absorption of the RR into the Federation. We're liberating Borg left and right. The Klingons are essentially tools of the Federation in the coming war with the Iconians (or their Heralds).

This is true, and also what i've always found irksome about Star Trek. Romulans usually handled this realistically as being genuinely upset at the Federations Insidious methods of Expansionism, and if other races noticed the radically-increasing-in-size Federation, war would become much more common for the Federation as other neighbors felt their sovereignty increasingly threatened. It also completely ignores the difficulties of multiculturalism. Of course in some episodes it seems like they can't decide if the Federation is multicultural or a giant melting-pot culture ala the United States, but i digress.

kojirohellfire

rambowdoubledash wrote: »

That's true, but on the other end of the spectrum the Andorians never were warriors to the exclusion of any other way of life. Klingons have to couch everything they do in terms of combat and battle, even Klingon lawyers see themselves as engaged in a battle. One has to wonder how much mental gymnastics a Klingon gardener has to put himself through to convince himself he'll end up in Sto Vo Kor - if he even can, more likely he just gardens until he becomes so neurotically concerned about Sto Vo Kor that he grabs his gardening sheers and goes and picks a fight with someone to ensure he can die honorably in battle.

He's obviously waging glorious war against weeds.

cheesebasket

Peace is an illusion anyway, facilitated because of the illusion of 2 powers being equal enough in strength and having enough sway in a given area that they feel the need to cooperate more to stay in control of the territory they have and not so much for the population's sake.

Believe me, nations try to one-up each other and subvert each other all the time, if they think they can get away with it, they'll try to get away with it

Case in point on the Crimean peninsula and Russia's territory grabs of late, let's just say the Russians know the U.S. Doesn't have the assets required to have any real authority in that area, as a result they do their thing knowing that peace will be maintained simply because the opposing party won't start a war on a front they can't win. Russians in particular don't have any fear of empty threats.

Back to topic, eventually the federation would beat the Klingons, either through goomba stomping or rideijg out of the ashes of the empire when they ran out of enemies to fight and destroyed themselves as for peace... Well, there's be no empire to be at war with either way at that point