Oh an amezuki, go White-knighting somewhere else where someone actually cares.
Judging by the responses thus far, someone apparently does. #dealwithit
Disagree with what I've said? Then kindly do us the courtesy of explaining what part of it is incorrect. Throwing around ad hominems like "white knight" just makes it look like you have nothing of substance to say.
Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
Nah, doesn't mean that. You can keep flying the way you are...or you could even make Pilot your Primary and Intel your Secondary if you wanted to do so. This isn't taking away from you...it's giving you more options.
Command/Commando
Command/Intel
Command/Pilot
Intel/Command
Intel/Commando
Intel/Pilot
Pilot/Command
Pilot/Commando (er...yeah, about that one...heh, it would still be a possibility though)
Pilot/Intel
Pilot Commando is useable. Don't know why you think it wouldn't be.
Shield Scraping sounds interesting...but does that prevent the need for NPC's to fly into you? Constantly?
Let them come. It would be interesting if the AI changed to reflect that they have some self preservation.
On the other hand I've seen some Vaadwaur deploying Intel shield reinforcements.
So are we gonna have to worry about Pilot NPCs shield scraping us.
And if two people with Shield Scrape collide what happens?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Useable...as in selectable, yes.
Useable...as in not useless, no.
But virus, I'm doing that STF that has both ground and space combat in it! Don't you remember!
I mean, specializations, level 60, Reputation tracks, guaranteed rewards at the end of a STF, and all that was totally guaranteed back when that was a thing...
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
The fact that you are essentially TRIBBLE people over who have spent points in pilot and a primary specialization without refunding points like a sane MMO (whenever talents are changed it is common courtesy that people receive a free respec) is yet another mark in the Con column. A note to the wise that Con column is really filling up with your recent asinine decisions including the Delta recruit idiocy.
But virus, I'm doing that STF that has both ground and space combat in it! Don't you remember!
I mean, specializations, level 60, Reputation tracks, guaranteed rewards at the end of a STF, and all that was totally guaranteed back when that was a thing...
There's uh...rumors out there...about new stuff that's uh...coming.
And that kind of makes the ability for folks to slot Intel/Command or Command/Intel pretty nifty.
The fact that you are essentially TRIBBLE people over who have spent points in pilot and a primary specialization without refunding points like a sane MMO (whenever talents are changed it is common courtesy that people receive a free respec) is yet another mark in the Con column. A note to the wise that Con column is really filling up with your recent asinine decisions including the Delta recruit idiocy.
Posting nonsense like that, you're the last person that should be offering notes to the wise.
whenever talents are changed it is common courtesy that people receive a free respec
The rest of this post is largely substance-free bile, but I agree with this point, and it's a shame that we have a dev explicitly telling us that there will be no respec. A free respec whenever the significant changes are made that affect previously-allocated points is common industry practice for a very good reason: it is a low-cost move that buys you considerable player goodwill and heads off any possible bitterness about how players have "wasted" their earned points.
The lack of any option whatsoever to even buy or earn a specialization respec, now--that's just plain bad design practice, period. You should NEVER permanently lock players into the choice of where they spend their points, and it's disappointing to hear that someone with project authority apparently has such appallingly poor judgment.
Overall, as I said above I really like these changes. Being able to freely choose what is a primary and secondary is how I originally thought the system was going to work when I heard about it, and I was disappointed to learn that it was more restrictive, so that's a welcome shift. But the lack of any possibility for respeccing your specialization points is an indefensible sour note.
Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
A free respec whenever the significant changes are made that affect previously-allocated points is common industry practice for a very good reason: it is a low-cost move that buys you considerable player goodwill and heads off any possible bitterness about how players have "wasted" their earned points.
And...the point of that is? There has been no change to previously-allocated points. Maybe if Cryptic had changed things...then yeah, maybe bring up that complaint?
Nothing has changed with any of the points spent. The 1-15 spent in Pilot are still the 1-15 spent in Pilot. Any points spent elsewhere are the same as spent elsewhere. Nothing has been taken away.
Oh, would prefer to have 30 in Pilot instead of 30 in Intel or Command? That's not a change. That's along the lines of having bought Ship X, used it, Ship Y comes out, and asking for a refund so you can buy Ship X. That would be like asking for a game that introduced a new class, to allow you to change the class of your current character to that class.
But, but, but...I wouldn't have spent those points if I knew this was coming! Just like folks might never buy anything because there might be something they want more later? No, folks buy what they use...and if they want something else, they get that when it's available.
Back with the Reputation changes, they made actual changes to the Traits. Did they give a free respec? Nope, they went one further and removed any need to respec anything.
This change...isn't changing anything one already has. Why on Earth are people treating it like it has and that it's something Cryptic should give them a respec for?
Do they go into a restaurant, order their meal, and as they're finishing off dessert they happen to see something interesting at the next table and demand that the restaurant give them a free meal so they can enjoy that instead?
I mean, seriously, just what planet are some folks posting from...
And...the point of that is? There has been no change to previously-allocated points. Maybe if Cryptic had changed things...then yeah, maybe bring up that complaint?
Nothing has changed with any of the points spent. The 1-15 spent in Pilot are still the 1-15 spent in Pilot. Any points spent elsewhere are the same as spent elsewhere. Nothing has been taken away.
Oh, would prefer to have 30 in Pilot instead of 30 in Intel or Command? That's not a change. That's along the lines of having bought Ship X, used it, Ship Y comes out, and asking for a refund so you can buy Ship X. That would be like asking for a game that introduced a new class, to allow you to change the class of your current character to that class.
But, but, but...I wouldn't have spent those points if I knew this was coming! Just like folks might never buy anything because there might be something they want more later? No, folks buy what they use...and if they want something else, they get that when it's available.
Back with the Reputation changes, they made actual changes to the Traits. Did they give a free respec? Nope, they went one further and removed any need to respec anything.
This change...isn't changing anything one already has. Why on Earth are people treating it like it has and that it's something Cryptic should give them a respec for?
Do they go into a restaurant, order their meal, and as they're finishing off dessert they happen to see something interesting at the next table and demand that the restaurant give them a free meal so they can enjoy that instead?
I mean, seriously, just what planet are some folks posting from...
Thanks Virus by putting it so nicely.
Most people have put points into pilot and now we get to put more into it, why is that a problem?
Some nice looking abilities coming with the Pilot Specialization becoming a Primary. A shame I'll probably never be able to use them myself. Considering I have at most 13 Spec points on any single alt, filling out even a Secondary specialization at this point is months if not years away for me.
I mean, I know I can buy the training tokens off the Exchange but considering how many BOff's I have across all my alts that might like to use some of those abilities, it'd just be so much easier if my Captain could just train them when I need it. And that takes Spec points and I just don't get them quick enough to come close to being able to do that any time soon.
So, it's nice that something new is being added. Even nicer that the new abilities look pretty neat as well. I don't want to say anything negative about this so I'll just say that I look forward to seeing other players using them.
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day.
Set a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Most people have put points into pilot and now we get to put more into it, why is that a problem?
Don't get me wrong, mind you - I do think we could do with a tweak to the rate of gain on Specialization Points. There's plenty of room, imho, to nudge it some from where it is without it turning into a done with everything in a week or two.
There are all sorts of folks playing this game, so it's going to be impossible for Cryptic to provide for all of them.
Somebody that lives STO may find themselves with little to do.
Somebody that oft forgets they've got STO installed may fall behind.
Gets into that tricky position of Cryptic trying to balance something between the extremes. What factors into it, imho, is their production schedule and their intent to continue adding them while also attempting to make the game more alt-friendly (hopefully, imho, not a return to alt-needy).
Gets into a mix of working in some surveys and sampling the populace while also reviewing their metrics in a scope that takes the two into account to come up with a happy medium that may very well need tweaking of its own from time to time.
Which is where, imho, with the combination of the additional 15 to the cap and the Delta Recruitment announcement...we might just need a wee tweak toward faster (not heavy and hamfisted brutality where everything is done for 40 alts before S10 launches, heh, but some tweaking)...
...I could be totally wrong, that's just based off of a conservative look at what's being said on the forums. I should have maxed everything already, but I'm just not playing that way - so it's not affecting me that way. But it's obvious that outside some of the melodramatic comments out there, there are some folks that appear to be coming off as having a good faith complaint.
Useable...as in selectable, yes.
Useable...as in not useless, no.
Yeah I see what you mean it's basically one pure space and one pure ground, so you're only going to have roughly half the benefit no matter where you are.
Those are pretty nice, thanks. Funny how it pulls from all professions. AoE and confuses from science, ejecting engine materials from engineering, attack patterns from tactical. In some ways I'd rather have this added to the normal divisions.
The rest of this post is largely substance-free bile, but I agree with this point, and it's a shame that we have a dev explicitly telling us that there will be no respec. A free respec whenever the significant changes are made that affect previously-allocated points is common industry practice for a very good reason: it is a low-cost move that buys you considerable player goodwill and heads off any possible bitterness about how players have "wasted" their earned points.
The lack of any option whatsoever to even buy or earn a specialization respec, now--that's just plain bad design practice, period. You should NEVER permanently lock players into the choice of where they spend their points, and it's disappointing to hear that someone with project authority apparently has such appallingly poor judgment.
Overall, as I said above I really like these changes. Being able to freely choose what is a primary and secondary is how I originally thought the system was going to work when I heard about it, and I was disappointed to learn that it was more restrictive, so that's a welcome shift. But the lack of any possibility for respeccing your specialization points is an indefensible sour note.
I understand the feeling, the instinct, and idea here.
The thing is the dev teams goal of basically always having something for us to continue to advance through is a good one, but that aside....
The idea of a respec as I understand it, is to reallocate things you've earned into something else you've found to be more valuable. But in such a system, the respec is needed because those skill points are decidedly FINITE. If I put points into Energy Weapon Specialization I'm trading off points I can put into Projectile Weapons specialization or Armor. If I find that I need more armor then the respec allows me to switch that up but at the cost of taking points out of that Energy weapons specialization.
With the Specialization system that is not the case. If you need to add another skill point then you would just earn one through the course of normal play and apply it where you need it. A respec as convenient as it would be, would be redundant in a system where the amount of skill points is effectively infinite.
The points aren't wasted as you can always go back to what you already have and benefit from those skills. People are thinking that their time is wasted since from a certain perspective, what you've already worked on is no longer the "latest and greatest".
The idea of a respec applied to Specialization is basically I don't want what I've already worked on, I want the new hotness. And I want you to give me the opportunity to use what I've already worked on with the new hotness every time you release new hotness.
So when one has made 45 spec points, they release Command and then they want to unbind all of their Intel spent points and apply them to Command. This also means that they would no longer have to work to get points in command but instead just be recycling the old points.
Now of course over time as one gains more points they would eventually have enough points to fill intel again, but that isn't the point of the system. It's a long play goal.
You want a skip.
Internally it doesn't make sense. It's basically your captain saying I want to forget what I've already learned in order to immediately learn something new. And then the option to forget that at a later date to learn something new.
From the Doylist developer perspective it directly clashes with their design goals. They want you to put the time in. For there to always be something for the player to work towards. And they do get to make that call. Their rules.
It would be interesting if they released a series of missions that required each different type of Specialization. Would people buy a new respec token so they could shuffle around for each mission?
I think the Exp gain should be increased definitely, but a respec isn't the answer.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
And...the point of that is? There has been no change to previously-allocated points. Maybe if Cryptic had changed things...then yeah, maybe bring up that complaint?
[etc etc etc]
I mean, seriously, just what planet are some folks posting from...
It is unclear to me whether or not you are replying to the correct post. I understand quite well what's being changed and what isn't, and I'm very supportive of these changes in both this post and the one I made prior.
What I am stating is the fact that it is standard practice in MMORPGs to provide players with a free respec whenever you make significant alterations to the skill tree that could've affected the choices a player made. This is especially critical considering that there is no other way to respec your points--a poorly-chosen limitation that doesn't exist in any other major MMO of which I'm aware.
Please note that editorial color aside, this is not an opinion I am offering. It is a matter of record that most MMOs and online ARPGs do this, and why they do it. WoW, both EverQuests, Path of Exile... if you don't believe me, go back and read the patch notes. When there's a patch that changes talents/skills/abilities, there is almost always a free respec along with it, regardless of whether or not any specific build is directly affected.
And why not? It costs them almost nothing, and buys a considerable amount of player goodwill. Players who are or think they will be affected by the change can't complain that they're now locked into their choices, and players who aren't affected may be happy about the opportunity to try a different build.
Given the wall of noise that is usually generated by the whiny vocal minority in this game every time a new change comes down the pipe, I would think low-cost PR moves like this would be standard practice for this team in order to pre-emptively neutralize a lot of the complaining.
Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
No, I don't. I want the option of rebalancing my build with different priorities. I get what you are saying about the spec points not being finite, and that is not a trivial point, but I fail to see how the remainder of what you're saying does not apply just as well to -any- respec system.
Spec points are not finite, but they do respresent a significant investment of time and effort that a player cannot ever get back, and they are not trivial to earn. If you cannot ever recover those points once spent, it makes spending them a risk, and it makes a "wrong" choice that will never be used a significant loss of invested time and effort.
What this fundamentally comes down to is a question of player psychology and how it fits into game design philosophy. As a game developer, you want players to take chances and try different things--I cannot stress enough how important it is to incentivize this. When you create new content, you want players to try it out. In order to encourage players to do that, you need to make the decision to do so easy and the barrier to entry low, and minimize the amount of risk the player is taking by venturing into the unknown.
Generally speaking, if players perceive that they will be punished for making the "wrong" choice by spending points and then come to believe that they have "wasted" that point on an ability that is not useful to them, they will be reluctant to use the new content at all, and they will be much more reluctant in the future to take a chance on trying something different. To put it another way: "I got burned once, so I'm going to be more careful in the future."
You do NOT want players to decide that spending points is a risk. That is a dangerous place for a developer to be, and generating that reaction is often a sign of bad game design.
Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
This change...isn't changing anything one already has. Why on Earth are people treating it like it has and that it's something Cryptic should give them a respec for?
Do they go into a restaurant, order their meal, and as they're finishing off dessert they happen to see something interesting at the next table and demand that the restaurant give them a free meal so they can enjoy that instead?
I mean, seriously, just what planet are some folks posting from...
The problem with your restaurant analogy is, I might rethink what I ordered at the retaurant, and yes, I'm basically stuck with it, but the next time I go to that restaurant, I am not locked into ordering the same thing.
What has happened here is Cryptic has given us Tiers of different Specializations and made us choose where to spend points on them. I like the Pilot Spec, I've maxed it out. Now, I'm working on the Command Spec. I have spent enough points in it to have spent into T3, but have avoided the Ground abilities for now. I will likely be using Pilot as my Primary Spec, making Command my Secondary, but now those points I spent on T3? Wasted. I should have saved them for T3 of Pilot, and would have IF Cryptic had made this choice from the start. Since they did not, the responsibility is theirs to make right that they changed their minds mid-stream.
This is more like, sticking with your restaurant analogy, ordering an appetizer of nachos. It is obvious you enjoyed the nachos, you ate every one, and sent word back to the kitchen, via the waiter, of how you thought they were the best nachos ever, and how much you loved them. As your dinner is coming out, the waiter tells you "The chef was so pleased you enjoyed the appetizer, he decided to add a dinner-sized portion to the specials. Would you like to order a second dinner of nachos?" What are you going to do with a second dinner? That's just silly, but that's exactly what is happening here.
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
No, I don't. I want the option of rebalancing my build with different priorities. I get what you are saying about the spec points not being finite, and that is not a trivial point, but I fail to see how the remainder of what you're saying does not apply just as well to -any- respec system.
Because in the standard 1-50 levels skillpoint system you don't eventually get to fill the entire thing.
Spec points are not finite, but they do respresent a significant investment of time and effort that a player cannot ever get back, and they are not trivial to earn. If you cannot ever recover those points once spent, it makes spending them a risk, and it makes a "wrong" choice that will never be used a significant loss of invested time and effort.
It's not like you're playing a game of chance and like Deal or no Deal where the point you select could give you nothing.
Nor is it something random where you don't know what you're paying for. (for instance the mods on crafted items and upgrades).
You are making an informed investment into a skill set. I haven't ground out the whole thing so someone feel free to chime in, is the Intel skill tree wholly inferior and completely obsolete compared to Command?
We were informed that there would be other Specializations further down the pipeline. If you don't use intel again though that is up to each individual player.
What this fundamentally comes down to is a question of player psychology and how it fits into game design philosophy. As a game developer, you want players to take chances and try different things--I cannot stress enough how important it is to incentivize this. When you create new content, you want players to try it out. In order to encourage players to do that, you need to make the decision to do so easy and the barrier to entry low, and minimize the amount of risk the player is taking by venturing into the unknown.
Generally speaking, if players perceive that they will be punished for making the "wrong" choice by spending points and then come to believe that they have "wasted" that point on an ability that is not useful to them, they will be reluctant to use the new content at all, and they will be much more reluctant in the future to take a chance on trying something different. To put it another way: "I got burned once, so I'm going to be more careful in the future."
You do NOT want players to decide that spending points is a risk. That is a dangerous place for a developer to be, and generating that reaction is often a sign of bad game design.
Then these two players are at different ideas of player psychology. I don't see how investing in a Specialization tree, earning abilities, and skills is a waste. When Command came out I didn't feel like I had wasted my time or energy speccing in to Intel. If anything I was more like, "Man now I have something else to fill out". I don't detect a "risk" however. It's simply what ability do I want next? What am I prioritizing?
I am of the I'll get to it when I get to it school of thought though.
Talk about barriers, if there's a barrier to using the Specialization schools it's the fact that you need specialized ships in order to use the majority of the active abilities in space.
If I could retrofit my T5-U Noble to have a universal Specialization BOFF slot then I'd be in business. Specialization Trees are just a matter of time.
The problem with your restaurant analogy is, I might rethink what I ordered at the retaurant, and yes, I'm basically stuck with it, but the next time I go to that restaurant, I am not locked into ordering the same thing.
What has happened here is Cryptic has given us Tiers of different Specializations and made us choose where to spend points on them. I like the Pilot Spec, I've maxed it out. Now, I'm working on the Command Spec. I have spent enough points in it to have spent into T3, but have avoided the Ground abilities for now. I will likely be using Pilot as my Primary Spec, making Command my Secondary, but now those points I spent on T3? Wasted. I should have saved them for T3 of Pilot, and would have IF Cryptic had made this choice from the start. Since they did not, the responsibility is theirs to make right that they changed their minds mid-stream.
So you didn't want the abilities in the tier 3 of command at all? They do nothing for you? They're completely useless now?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The problem with your restaurant analogy is, I might rethink what I ordered at the retaurant, and yes, I'm basically stuck with it, but the next time I go to that restaurant, I am not locked into ordering the same thing.
What has happened here is Cryptic has given us Tiers of different Specializations and made us choose where to spend points on them. I like the Pilot Spec, I've maxed it out. Now, I'm working on the Command Spec. I have spent enough points in it to have spent into T3, but have avoided the Ground section for now. I will likely be using Pilot as my Primary Spec, making Command my Secondary, but now those points I spent on T3? Wasted. I should have saved them for T3 of Pilot, and would have IF Cryptic had made this choice from the start. Since they did not, the responsibility is theirs to make right that they changed their minds mid-stream.
This is more like, sticking with your restaurant analogy, ordering an appetizer of nachos. It is obvious you enjoyed the nachos, you ate every one, and sent word back to the kitchen, via the waiter, of how you thought they were the best nachos ever, and how much you loved them. As your dinner is coming out, the waiter tells you "The chef was so pleased you enjoyed the appetizer, he decided to add a dinner-sized portion to the specials. Would you like to order a second dinner of nachos?" What are you going to do with a second dinner? That's just silly, but that's exactly what is happening here.
But you're not stuck with nachos every time. The next time you go...you get something else.
Tom earned 60 Specialization Points. He filled out Intel/Pilot/Commando. They introduce Command. He's not stuck with the 30 he spent in Intel. He can earn 30 more for Command. They introduce another 15 for Pilot. He's not stuck with what's he got. He can earn 15 more for Pilot.
Compare this to the Skill Window. You get 366,000 Skill Points. You spend them. You're stuck with them. You can't earn more than 366,000 Skill Points. Each time you go to the restaurant, you're getting nachos.
And tada, there is a way to respec Skill Points so you're not stuck with them.
Before they changed the Reputation System, you selected one of two passives for each tier...and...you were stuck with that choice. Tada...there was a respec until they did away with the need for the respec.
Specialization Points? You're never locked out. You're never stuck. If there are 60 potential points, you can spend all 60. If there are 90 potential points, you can spend all 90. If there are 105 potential points, you can spend all 105. 120? 120! 150? 150! 9001? 9001!
They're an ongoing reward for playing. They're not new and interesting rewards for not playing.
It's a "thank you" for continuing to play our game...here's a little something-something for you.
But just like various event/anniversary ships and the like...some players out there turn it into "omgherd, a grind - Cryptic hates us and doesn't want us to play their game!"
6000 zen for the discount pack
includes all three factions pilot seat specialization escorts or you can buy each individually for
3000 zen.
Instead they should just make seat specialization modules for existing ships 1 commander seat for 1000 zen and a lieutenant seat for 500 zen. This would be a much cheaper and less involved process than making new ships evertime they release a new specialization which seems to be something there going t be doing alot of in the future. Doing seat upgrades is a win-win cryptic gets its precious money and players get to use the newest abilities on there old favorite T5-U ships. Comon cryptic what are you wating for theres still time to announce starship specialization seat modules before season 10!
But you're not stuck with nachos every time. The next time you go...you get something else.
Except this is changing the menu while you are eating, based on the consumer's input, and not offering a way to change. If the chef in my scenario had made the outlined change, he or the waiter would have, if they were practicing good customer service, offered the option to change what was ordered.
The other problem with the restaurant analogy is we are talking about investing points, and comparing it to consuming a... consumable. It is like comparing choosing different meals when you eat at a restaurant vs choosing to build a second story to a restaurant. The upper tier, either case, is a bit more permanent.
By the way:
Did I miss the explaination of what they plan to do with BOffs who have been "Pilot Qualified"? I just blew a chunk of money on the Command Ships, they aren't going to milk even more, are they?
ARE THEY?!?!?!?
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
The T3 space abilities? Yep, useless if I can only use the first 2 tiers when I slot it as my 2ndary.
Except this is changing the menu while you are eating, based on the consumer's input, and not offering a way to change. If the chef in my scenario had made the outlined change, he or the waiter would have, if they were practicing good customer service, offered the option to change what was ordered.
The other problem with the restaurant analogy is we are talking about investing points, and comparing it to consuming a... consumable. It is like comparing choosing different meals when you eat at a restaurant vs choosing to build a second story to a restaurant. The upper tier, either case, is a bit more permanent.
But that's the thing, it's not permanent in that sense - since what's slotted can vary.
Would be more like buying a pair of paintings to hang in the living room. Then seeing a painting that you prefer. You buy that and put one of the others in the garage. Then seeing another painting that you prefer. You buy that and put one of the others in the garage. Then maybe you feel like hanging one of those from the garage, so you switch it out. Maybe you get into your "Summer" painting and "Winter" painting routines. Maybe you're going to have a dinner party. Luckily, the garage has infinite space...so you can keep on getting those paintings you prefer and using them as the mood suits you.
By the way:
Did I miss the explaination of what they plan to do with BOffs who have been "Pilot Qualified"? I just blew a chunk of money on the Command Ships, they aren't going to milk even more, are they?
ARE THEY?!?!?!?
Nah, there was nothing I saw...that was a complete wtf moment in seeing that at the bottom of the blog and at the BOFF Trainer/Store.
Personally, none of the Pilot stuff actually appeals...I'm looking squarely at T4 Intel / T2 Command while feeling evil.
But with the way they've done the hybrid seats...meh...I'd expect there to be more ships coming. There will always be more ships coming. But still, that doesn't mean we need to buy all the ships. The only Intel boat I bought was the Phantom because none of the others interested me. I grabbed the Command 3pack because it did interest me. Can't see a Pilot boat based on those abilities interesting me...but I can definitely see it interesting many folks out there.
The T3 space abilities? Yep, useless if I can only use the first 2 tiers when I slot it as my 2ndary.
Well that is the tradeoff. If they're that valuable then you still have to choose which one you want to use.
By the way:
Did I miss the explaination of what they plan to do with BOffs who have been "Pilot Qualified"? I just blew a chunk of money on the Command Ships, they aren't going to milk even more, are they?
But that's the thing, it's not permanent in that sense - since what's slotted can vary.
Would be more like buying a pair of paintings to hang in the living room. Then seeing a painting that you prefer. You buy that and put one of the others in the garage. Then seeing another painting that you prefer. You buy that and put one of the others in the garage. Then maybe you feel like hanging one of those from the garage, so you switch it out. Maybe you get into your "Summer" painting and "Winter" painting routines. Maybe you're going to have a dinner party. Luckily, the garage has infinite space...so you can keep on getting those paintings you prefer and using them as the mood suits you.
Nah, there was nothing I saw...that was a complete wtf moment in seeing that at the bottom of the blog and at the BOFF Trainer/Store.
Personally, none of the Pilot stuff actually appeals...I'm looking squarely at T4 Intel / T2 Command while feeling evil.
But with the way they've done the hybrid seats...meh...I'd expect there to be more ships coming. There will always be more ships coming. But still, that doesn't mean we need to buy all the ships. The only Intel boat I bought was the Phantom because none of the others interested me. I grabbed the Command 3pack because it did interest me. Can't see a Pilot boat based on those abilities interesting me...but I can definitely see it interesting many folks out there.
A pilot Bird of Prey....I dare to dream.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
All I'm going to say about this is that releasing new specializations is inevitably going to run into diminishing returns... And I think that diminishment will start to become evident starting around now. After the Delta Pack (Intel ships) and Command ship 3-packs/9-pack, I don't think that whatever ships will be released to come with the Pilot bridge officer specialization will sell very well. And grinding spec points isn't a good method to keep people in the game, either... After grinding out the first two primary specializations (Or even the first one) I doubt that people will even give a damn about new ones. :P
......But this change takes nothing away from anyone. All it does is expand the number of options you have for how you build your character.
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a basic courtesy to offer a free respec whenever you make a major change to the spec trees......
This is the ONLY point I'm upset about, I didn't even put any points into Pilot because the abilities didn't really apply to my character. Adding defense to my aft when attacked is nearly useless. I use a pair of Neutronium Armors, the diminishing returns I would get from some extra defense added are very minimal.
This change...isn't changing anything one already has. Why on Earth are people treating it like it has and that it's something Cryptic should give them a respec for?.
Because it is changing what you already have and it is something a respec should be available for.
It is changing what you already have because when the game changes the value of what you already have changes. That's both in the objective sense of game balance issues and in the subjective sense of players feeling that they've wasted effort investing in something they now don't really want because the available choices changed after the fact. The subjective sense is probably the more important of the two; IMO it's much more likely to affect customer retention.
Additionally, what if a player makes a mistake? E.g. I seem to have somehow put a point into Commando on one of my alts, which I don't remember doing and don't want, but there's no way to move it. Sure, it's only one point but "grind moar fewl" is a poor reply. What if a player buys into a spec tree and then finds out it doesn't work the way he thought it did or it turns out to be incompatible with his playing style? "Tough luck, sucker, grind moar" is not a viable answer. What happens when, not if, the devs start nerfing spec tree abilities?
Player choices in a build-oriented game should never be irrevocable. How expensive it should be to change them and how often changes should be allowed (e.g. you can only respec spec points once every X days) are debatable, but the ability to change needs to exist. Not allowing spec tree respecs is pants-on-head stupid.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
What are you talking about? Your points aren't being reallocated AT ALL.
There is no split. Intelligence is only receiving one general change. As a Primary specialization you will now be allowed to use it as a secondary. When used as a secondary only the first two tiers of abilities will be active. If you want all four tiers then slot it as a primary. Slotting it as a secondary does not erase the points above the second tier that you've unlocked, just as switching out a weapon does not remove it from your inventory.
Pilot is getting upgraded to a full primary specialization meaning that it will receive two additional tiers of abilities to unlock.
It's just like Reputation. You don't lose levels in a Reputation because you started leveling another one.
"As with other existing Primary Specializations, spending at least 10 points in the Pilot Captain Specialization will unlock the option of creating Specialization Qualification items that can be used to add the Pilot Specialization to any Bridge Officer in the game."
That seems to imply Piloting will be separate from Intelligence (even if it remains under Intelligence, which doesn't make sense). Any points spent under Piloting will go with it as a new Primary. You cannot count a spec point under two different Specs, so that is taking away from the Intel Spec total needed for the 10 necessary to train non-Intel Boffs in Intel Spec. It would b nice to be wrong, but that is my interpretation.
All I'm going to say about this is that releasing new specializations is inevitably going to run into diminishing returns... And I think that diminishment will start to become evident starting around now. After the Delta Pack (Intel ships) and Command ship 3-packs/9-pack, I don't think that whatever ships will be released to come with the Pilot bridge officer specialization will sell very well. And grinding spec points isn't a good method to keep people in the game, either... After grinding out the first two primary specializations (Or even the first one) I doubt that people will even give a damn about new ones. :P
You know I think the fact that they're upgrading Pilot to a full Primary is an attempt to mitigate that.
Whether or not people give a damn about them will depend on what they offer.
But there's definitely a balance, a balance that says, "Wow that looks awesome..." Looks at the 30 specialization points, "But nah I'll pass".
I think more than a respec, the ability to actually acquire spec points in a reasonable and rewarding amount of time is still missing.
It's not intended for this purpose, but it's very true that Specialization is pretty much the antithesis of Instant Gratification rewards.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
Disagree with what I've said? Then kindly do us the courtesy of explaining what part of it is incorrect. Throwing around ad hominems like "white knight" just makes it look like you have nothing of substance to say.
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
Let them come. It would be interesting if the AI changed to reflect that they have some self preservation.
On the other hand I've seen some Vaadwaur deploying Intel shield reinforcements.
So are we gonna have to worry about Pilot NPCs shield scraping us.
And if two people with Shield Scrape collide what happens?
Useable...as in selectable, yes.
Useable...as in not useless, no.
But virus, I'm doing that STF that has both ground and space combat in it! Don't you remember!
I mean, specializations, level 60, Reputation tracks, guaranteed rewards at the end of a STF, and all that was totally guaranteed back when that was a thing...
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
There's uh...rumors out there...about new stuff that's uh...coming.
And that kind of makes the ability for folks to slot Intel/Command or Command/Intel pretty nifty.
Posting nonsense like that, you're the last person that should be offering notes to the wise.
http://tinypic.com/m/im8e41/3
How'd you get them in Space? There's a BOFF Trainer/Store in Space somewhere? The Battle Group Omega thing?
The lack of any option whatsoever to even buy or earn a specialization respec, now--that's just plain bad design practice, period. You should NEVER permanently lock players into the choice of where they spend their points, and it's disappointing to hear that someone with project authority apparently has such appallingly poor judgment.
Overall, as I said above I really like these changes. Being able to freely choose what is a primary and secondary is how I originally thought the system was going to work when I heard about it, and I was disappointed to learn that it was more restrictive, so that's a welcome shift. But the lack of any possibility for respeccing your specialization points is an indefensible sour note.
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
And...the point of that is? There has been no change to previously-allocated points. Maybe if Cryptic had changed things...then yeah, maybe bring up that complaint?
Nothing has changed with any of the points spent. The 1-15 spent in Pilot are still the 1-15 spent in Pilot. Any points spent elsewhere are the same as spent elsewhere. Nothing has been taken away.
Oh, would prefer to have 30 in Pilot instead of 30 in Intel or Command? That's not a change. That's along the lines of having bought Ship X, used it, Ship Y comes out, and asking for a refund so you can buy Ship X. That would be like asking for a game that introduced a new class, to allow you to change the class of your current character to that class.
But, but, but...I wouldn't have spent those points if I knew this was coming! Just like folks might never buy anything because there might be something they want more later? No, folks buy what they use...and if they want something else, they get that when it's available.
Back with the Reputation changes, they made actual changes to the Traits. Did they give a free respec? Nope, they went one further and removed any need to respec anything.
This change...isn't changing anything one already has. Why on Earth are people treating it like it has and that it's something Cryptic should give them a respec for?
Do they go into a restaurant, order their meal, and as they're finishing off dessert they happen to see something interesting at the next table and demand that the restaurant give them a free meal so they can enjoy that instead?
I mean, seriously, just what planet are some folks posting from...
Thanks Virus by putting it so nicely.
Most people have put points into pilot and now we get to put more into it, why is that a problem?
Some nice looking abilities coming with the Pilot Specialization becoming a Primary. A shame I'll probably never be able to use them myself. Considering I have at most 13 Spec points on any single alt, filling out even a Secondary specialization at this point is months if not years away for me.
I mean, I know I can buy the training tokens off the Exchange but considering how many BOff's I have across all my alts that might like to use some of those abilities, it'd just be so much easier if my Captain could just train them when I need it. And that takes Spec points and I just don't get them quick enough to come close to being able to do that any time soon.
So, it's nice that something new is being added. Even nicer that the new abilities look pretty neat as well. I don't want to say anything negative about this so I'll just say that I look forward to seeing other players using them.
Set a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Don't get me wrong, mind you - I do think we could do with a tweak to the rate of gain on Specialization Points. There's plenty of room, imho, to nudge it some from where it is without it turning into a done with everything in a week or two.
There are all sorts of folks playing this game, so it's going to be impossible for Cryptic to provide for all of them.
Somebody that lives STO may find themselves with little to do.
Somebody that oft forgets they've got STO installed may fall behind.
Gets into that tricky position of Cryptic trying to balance something between the extremes. What factors into it, imho, is their production schedule and their intent to continue adding them while also attempting to make the game more alt-friendly (hopefully, imho, not a return to alt-needy).
Gets into a mix of working in some surveys and sampling the populace while also reviewing their metrics in a scope that takes the two into account to come up with a happy medium that may very well need tweaking of its own from time to time.
Which is where, imho, with the combination of the additional 15 to the cap and the Delta Recruitment announcement...we might just need a wee tweak toward faster (not heavy and hamfisted brutality where everything is done for 40 alts before S10 launches, heh, but some tweaking)...
...I could be totally wrong, that's just based off of a conservative look at what's being said on the forums. I should have maxed everything already, but I'm just not playing that way - so it's not affecting me that way. But it's obvious that outside some of the melodramatic comments out there, there are some folks that appear to be coming off as having a good faith complaint.
I understand the feeling, the instinct, and idea here.
The thing is the dev teams goal of basically always having something for us to continue to advance through is a good one, but that aside....
The idea of a respec as I understand it, is to reallocate things you've earned into something else you've found to be more valuable. But in such a system, the respec is needed because those skill points are decidedly FINITE. If I put points into Energy Weapon Specialization I'm trading off points I can put into Projectile Weapons specialization or Armor. If I find that I need more armor then the respec allows me to switch that up but at the cost of taking points out of that Energy weapons specialization.
With the Specialization system that is not the case. If you need to add another skill point then you would just earn one through the course of normal play and apply it where you need it. A respec as convenient as it would be, would be redundant in a system where the amount of skill points is effectively infinite.
The points aren't wasted as you can always go back to what you already have and benefit from those skills. People are thinking that their time is wasted since from a certain perspective, what you've already worked on is no longer the "latest and greatest".
The idea of a respec applied to Specialization is basically I don't want what I've already worked on, I want the new hotness. And I want you to give me the opportunity to use what I've already worked on with the new hotness every time you release new hotness.
So when one has made 45 spec points, they release Command and then they want to unbind all of their Intel spent points and apply them to Command. This also means that they would no longer have to work to get points in command but instead just be recycling the old points.
Now of course over time as one gains more points they would eventually have enough points to fill intel again, but that isn't the point of the system. It's a long play goal.
You want a skip.
Internally it doesn't make sense. It's basically your captain saying I want to forget what I've already learned in order to immediately learn something new. And then the option to forget that at a later date to learn something new.
From the Doylist developer perspective it directly clashes with their design goals. They want you to put the time in. For there to always be something for the player to work towards. And they do get to make that call. Their rules.
It would be interesting if they released a series of missions that required each different type of Specialization. Would people buy a new respec token so they could shuffle around for each mission?
I think the Exp gain should be increased definitely, but a respec isn't the answer.
What I am stating is the fact that it is standard practice in MMORPGs to provide players with a free respec whenever you make significant alterations to the skill tree that could've affected the choices a player made. This is especially critical considering that there is no other way to respec your points--a poorly-chosen limitation that doesn't exist in any other major MMO of which I'm aware.
Please note that editorial color aside, this is not an opinion I am offering. It is a matter of record that most MMOs and online ARPGs do this, and why they do it. WoW, both EverQuests, Path of Exile... if you don't believe me, go back and read the patch notes. When there's a patch that changes talents/skills/abilities, there is almost always a free respec along with it, regardless of whether or not any specific build is directly affected.
And why not? It costs them almost nothing, and buys a considerable amount of player goodwill. Players who are or think they will be affected by the change can't complain that they're now locked into their choices, and players who aren't affected may be happy about the opportunity to try a different build.
Given the wall of noise that is usually generated by the whiny vocal minority in this game every time a new change comes down the pipe, I would think low-cost PR moves like this would be standard practice for this team in order to pre-emptively neutralize a lot of the complaining.
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
Spec points are not finite, but they do respresent a significant investment of time and effort that a player cannot ever get back, and they are not trivial to earn. If you cannot ever recover those points once spent, it makes spending them a risk, and it makes a "wrong" choice that will never be used a significant loss of invested time and effort.
What this fundamentally comes down to is a question of player psychology and how it fits into game design philosophy. As a game developer, you want players to take chances and try different things--I cannot stress enough how important it is to incentivize this. When you create new content, you want players to try it out. In order to encourage players to do that, you need to make the decision to do so easy and the barrier to entry low, and minimize the amount of risk the player is taking by venturing into the unknown.
Generally speaking, if players perceive that they will be punished for making the "wrong" choice by spending points and then come to believe that they have "wasted" that point on an ability that is not useful to them, they will be reluctant to use the new content at all, and they will be much more reluctant in the future to take a chance on trying something different. To put it another way: "I got burned once, so I'm going to be more careful in the future."
You do NOT want players to decide that spending points is a risk. That is a dangerous place for a developer to be, and generating that reaction is often a sign of bad game design.
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
What has happened here is Cryptic has given us Tiers of different Specializations and made us choose where to spend points on them. I like the Pilot Spec, I've maxed it out. Now, I'm working on the Command Spec. I have spent enough points in it to have spent into T3, but have avoided the Ground abilities for now. I will likely be using Pilot as my Primary Spec, making Command my Secondary, but now those points I spent on T3? Wasted. I should have saved them for T3 of Pilot, and would have IF Cryptic had made this choice from the start. Since they did not, the responsibility is theirs to make right that they changed their minds mid-stream.
This is more like, sticking with your restaurant analogy, ordering an appetizer of nachos. It is obvious you enjoyed the nachos, you ate every one, and sent word back to the kitchen, via the waiter, of how you thought they were the best nachos ever, and how much you loved them. As your dinner is coming out, the waiter tells you "The chef was so pleased you enjoyed the appetizer, he decided to add a dinner-sized portion to the specials. Would you like to order a second dinner of nachos?" What are you going to do with a second dinner? That's just silly, but that's exactly what is happening here.
It's not like you're playing a game of chance and like Deal or no Deal where the point you select could give you nothing.
Nor is it something random where you don't know what you're paying for. (for instance the mods on crafted items and upgrades).
You are making an informed investment into a skill set. I haven't ground out the whole thing so someone feel free to chime in, is the Intel skill tree wholly inferior and completely obsolete compared to Command?
We were informed that there would be other Specializations further down the pipeline. If you don't use intel again though that is up to each individual player.
Then these two players are at different ideas of player psychology. I don't see how investing in a Specialization tree, earning abilities, and skills is a waste. When Command came out I didn't feel like I had wasted my time or energy speccing in to Intel. If anything I was more like, "Man now I have something else to fill out". I don't detect a "risk" however. It's simply what ability do I want next? What am I prioritizing?
I am of the I'll get to it when I get to it school of thought though.
Talk about barriers, if there's a barrier to using the Specialization schools it's the fact that you need specialized ships in order to use the majority of the active abilities in space.
If I could retrofit my T5-U Noble to have a universal Specialization BOFF slot then I'd be in business. Specialization Trees are just a matter of time.
So you didn't want the abilities in the tier 3 of command at all? They do nothing for you? They're completely useless now?
But you're not stuck with nachos every time. The next time you go...you get something else.
Tom earned 60 Specialization Points. He filled out Intel/Pilot/Commando. They introduce Command. He's not stuck with the 30 he spent in Intel. He can earn 30 more for Command. They introduce another 15 for Pilot. He's not stuck with what's he got. He can earn 15 more for Pilot.
Compare this to the Skill Window. You get 366,000 Skill Points. You spend them. You're stuck with them. You can't earn more than 366,000 Skill Points. Each time you go to the restaurant, you're getting nachos.
And tada, there is a way to respec Skill Points so you're not stuck with them.
Before they changed the Reputation System, you selected one of two passives for each tier...and...you were stuck with that choice. Tada...there was a respec until they did away with the need for the respec.
Specialization Points? You're never locked out. You're never stuck. If there are 60 potential points, you can spend all 60. If there are 90 potential points, you can spend all 90. If there are 105 potential points, you can spend all 105. 120? 120! 150? 150! 9001? 9001!
They're an ongoing reward for playing. They're not new and interesting rewards for not playing.
It's a "thank you" for continuing to play our game...here's a little something-something for you.
But just like various event/anniversary ships and the like...some players out there turn it into "omgherd, a grind - Cryptic hates us and doesn't want us to play their game!"
It's just a truck full of /facepalm.
includes all three factions pilot seat specialization escorts or you can buy each individually for
3000 zen.
Instead they should just make seat specialization modules for existing ships 1 commander seat for 1000 zen and a lieutenant seat for 500 zen. This would be a much cheaper and less involved process than making new ships evertime they release a new specialization which seems to be something there going t be doing alot of in the future. Doing seat upgrades is a win-win cryptic gets its precious money and players get to use the newest abilities on there old favorite T5-U ships. Comon cryptic what are you wating for theres still time to announce starship specialization seat modules before season 10!
Except this is changing the menu while you are eating, based on the consumer's input, and not offering a way to change. If the chef in my scenario had made the outlined change, he or the waiter would have, if they were practicing good customer service, offered the option to change what was ordered.
The other problem with the restaurant analogy is we are talking about investing points, and comparing it to consuming a... consumable. It is like comparing choosing different meals when you eat at a restaurant vs choosing to build a second story to a restaurant. The upper tier, either case, is a bit more permanent.
Agreed.
By the way:
Did I miss the explaination of what they plan to do with BOffs who have been "Pilot Qualified"? I just blew a chunk of money on the Command Ships, they aren't going to milk even more, are they?
ARE THEY?!?!?!?
But that's the thing, it's not permanent in that sense - since what's slotted can vary.
Would be more like buying a pair of paintings to hang in the living room. Then seeing a painting that you prefer. You buy that and put one of the others in the garage. Then seeing another painting that you prefer. You buy that and put one of the others in the garage. Then maybe you feel like hanging one of those from the garage, so you switch it out. Maybe you get into your "Summer" painting and "Winter" painting routines. Maybe you're going to have a dinner party. Luckily, the garage has infinite space...so you can keep on getting those paintings you prefer and using them as the mood suits you.
Nah, there was nothing I saw...that was a complete wtf moment in seeing that at the bottom of the blog and at the BOFF Trainer/Store.
Personally, none of the Pilot stuff actually appeals...I'm looking squarely at T4 Intel / T2 Command while feeling evil.
But with the way they've done the hybrid seats...meh...I'd expect there to be more ships coming. There will always be more ships coming. But still, that doesn't mean we need to buy all the ships. The only Intel boat I bought was the Phantom because none of the others interested me. I grabbed the Command 3pack because it did interest me. Can't see a Pilot boat based on those abilities interesting me...but I can definitely see it interesting many folks out there.
Well that is the tradeoff. If they're that valuable then you still have to choose which one you want to use. Pilot qualified? What do you mean?
A pilot Bird of Prey....I dare to dream.
This is the ONLY point I'm upset about, I didn't even put any points into Pilot because the abilities didn't really apply to my character. Adding defense to my aft when attacked is nearly useless. I use a pair of Neutronium Armors, the diminishing returns I would get from some extra defense added are very minimal.
Because it is changing what you already have and it is something a respec should be available for.
It is changing what you already have because when the game changes the value of what you already have changes. That's both in the objective sense of game balance issues and in the subjective sense of players feeling that they've wasted effort investing in something they now don't really want because the available choices changed after the fact. The subjective sense is probably the more important of the two; IMO it's much more likely to affect customer retention.
Additionally, what if a player makes a mistake? E.g. I seem to have somehow put a point into Commando on one of my alts, which I don't remember doing and don't want, but there's no way to move it. Sure, it's only one point but "grind moar fewl" is a poor reply. What if a player buys into a spec tree and then finds out it doesn't work the way he thought it did or it turns out to be incompatible with his playing style? "Tough luck, sucker, grind moar" is not a viable answer. What happens when, not if, the devs start nerfing spec tree abilities?
Player choices in a build-oriented game should never be irrevocable. How expensive it should be to change them and how often changes should be allowed (e.g. you can only respec spec points once every X days) are debatable, but the ability to change needs to exist. Not allowing spec tree respecs is pants-on-head stupid.
"As with other existing Primary Specializations, spending at least 10 points in the Pilot Captain Specialization will unlock the option of creating Specialization Qualification items that can be used to add the Pilot Specialization to any Bridge Officer in the game."
That seems to imply Piloting will be separate from Intelligence (even if it remains under Intelligence, which doesn't make sense). Any points spent under Piloting will go with it as a new Primary. You cannot count a spec point under two different Specs, so that is taking away from the Intel Spec total needed for the 10 necessary to train non-Intel Boffs in Intel Spec. It would b nice to be wrong, but that is my interpretation.
You know I think the fact that they're upgrading Pilot to a full Primary is an attempt to mitigate that.
Whether or not people give a damn about them will depend on what they offer.
But there's definitely a balance, a balance that says, "Wow that looks awesome..." Looks at the 30 specialization points, "But nah I'll pass".
I think more than a respec, the ability to actually acquire spec points in a reasonable and rewarding amount of time is still missing.
It's not intended for this purpose, but it's very true that Specialization is pretty much the antithesis of Instant Gratification rewards.