I guess it really depends on how one defines 'capable' in this context.
What defines the T6 ships?
Their 5th "starship trait"
Does, or will, the original JHAS receive a 5th trait? Nope.
Incorporation of Intel or Command BOFF seating - or, in the case of the JHASS BOTH
Does the original JHAS receive either? Nope.
Which basically implies that they based the entire 'T6 capable' comment on the JHAS receiving an extra console slot upon upgrade from T5 to T5-U. Sorry. An extra console does NOT make it 'T6 capable'.
So far as I am concerned, "T6 capable" is poorly considered spin, and is being used as an excuse for the Powers That Be to say "Ah, but we MEANT......". Dishonest, deceitful and it would make your average Politian proud.
Yep... As I've said repeatedly... Not a broken promise, just a really bad choice in wording or a statement made before T5U was fully fleshed out...
Also, baring in mind Trendy (as far as I am aware) is not involved in development of such mechanics, the entire issue could very well have stemmed from information on how T5U would function not being entirely clear at the time of posting...
Um, no? Let me spell it out for you. "The entitlement is strong in these forums..." That sig look familiar to you?! It should, it's yours. And I was suggesting -- too subtlely, it seems -- that you're started in on these people because, as usual, you can't stand ppl with entitlement issues, and feel an overwhelming -- be it irrational -- need to rebuke them.
My signature was dig at such people, yes it was...
What is quite amusing here however is that you've zeroed in on my signature at all, as I have not once mentioned that this expectation that the JHAS should be a T6 is an entitlement mentality...
It either indicates that it's strikes a nerve with you, as you yourself believe that such attitudes are representative of an entitlement mentality, but don't wish to admit it, or you are once again throwing up yet another (third now I believe) straw man argument by turning this into me apparently having an issue with entitled individuals...
Clarification was sought, Cryptic never delivered any, even though we suspected why, now we know for sure.
Precisely. Clarification was sought directly, and like i said, indiectly, by many lockbox owners also wanting a free T6 Upgrade token for their lockbox ships too (we didn't know exactly, then, what mechanism would be used to upgrade the Bug ship). And never, at any point, did Cryptic come out and say, "No, no, this is all a big misunderstanding. We really just meant T5-U!" If ever there was eminent domain to do so, it was then.
While we're at it, a T5 ship could be said to be 'T5-U Capable', because it can gain access to T5-U (via an Upgrade token). Similarly, no T5-U ship can be said to be 'T6 Capable' in the same sense. Only thru a rather lame way, by arguing T5-U are still 'competitive', and therefore somehow magically 'T6 Capable.' Trust me, if that ever came up in a Court, it wouldn't hold up.
While we're at it, a T5 ship could be said to be 'T5-U Capable', because it can gain access to T5-U (via an Upgrade token). Similarly, no T5-U ship can be said to be 'T6 Capable' in the same sense. Only thru a rather lame way, by arguing T5-U are still 'competitive', and therefore somehow magically 'T6 Capable.'
With the exception of a single Boff ability, and the ship trait that defines a T6, T5U have everything else...
They have the 4 initial Ship Mastery levels.
The have the scaling hull.
They have an additional console slot.
This could be interpreted as having 'T6 capabilities'... Which has been the basis of my stance from the beginning...
With the exception of a single Boff ability, and the ship trait that defines a T6, T5U have everything else...
They have the 4 initial Ship Mastery levels.
The have the scaling hull.
They have an additional console slot.
This could be interpreted as having 'T6 capabilities'... Which has been the basis of my stance from the beginning...
But there's already a term for ships that can do all that.... T5-U. Advertising with 'T6 capabilities' suggests there's something beyond what a T5-U ship can do. Except, there wasn't, of course.
I guess we shall never know, but I personally doubt it would be as clear cut as you think...
Yup, guess we'll never know, as I reckon no one would be insane enough to ever sue over this; on that we can probably agree.
But there's already a term for ships that can do all that.... T5-U. Advertising with 'T6 capabilities' suggests there's something beyond what a T5-U ship can do. Except, there wasn't, of course.
Which brings me back to it being very poorly worded... I can see where people are coming from, however, I simply disagree with the interpretation and am yet to see an argument which has convinced me to interpret the sentiment in any form, other than what I have stated...
Since we are quite literally just rehashing the same points, at this point, this is gonna have to be a case of agreeing to disagree, we could be here all night otherwise...
Yup, guess we'll never know, as I reckon no one would be insane enough to ever sue over this; on that we can probably agree.
Yeah, I honestly cannot say with absolute certainty which way it would fall, but I'm definitely not convinced that it's a clear cut case of 'false advertising'...
Okay, imruined. I'm afraid you're wrong on pretty much everything you've said.
Cryptic stated the ship will be upgradeable to T6 starship capabilities. This really looks like it is not going to happen. There is also no T5U ship which has T6 capabilities that I'm aware of.
As I and others have said, the old bug ship is not getting the full suite of T6 capabilities. Namely the trait and boff seating and use of intel/command abilities. The blog was therefore misleading. If they'd qualified the statement to say some T6 capabilities or otherwise, people complaining wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
I don't think it was deliberate however, just poor wording from whoever wrote the blog. But with something like this, they should know people were going to get butthurt over it.
As to the entitlement issue thing, I wouldn't say you necessarily do, but there seems to be an issue with something.
If you've come to the forums to complain about the AFK system, it's known to be bugged at the moment.
Yeah, I honestly cannot say with absolute certainty which way it would fall, but I'm definitely not convinced that it's a clear cut case of 'false advertising'...
Nor can I, tbh. Hard to predict the future is. Especially when it pertains to legal matters.
Whatever any legal outcome would be, I can readily see how ppl felt misled by this, though. It would certainly have been a lot cleaner, ethically, if they had just answered ppl who asked for clarification, and just said they had ill-worded it, and just meant T5-U. I hope, for future reference, that they will take that high road from here on in.
History of PWE are vague descriptions and comments. Everything debated (raged about) are defended with the ToS, disclaimers and whatnot.
You would have no luck in a court. Who would you sue in the first place? Cryptic, PWE or PWI?
You agreed to all the above when creating an account, so you signed away all your rights for all ingame items, characters and your account. (You can read them all and see what you have claim on :rolleyes: )
T5-U are by Cryptic/PWE standards T6 capable (what they have confirmed in several posts afterwards). It's not a T6 ship, but they never actually said/wrote you would get a T6 ship. Just the appropriate capabilities, what you get by the T5-Upgrade.
Sorry for the English skills here. So tired and doesn't really care.
Cryptic stated the ship will be upgradeable to T6 starship capabilities. This really looks like it is not going to happen. There is also no T5U ship which has T6 capabilities that I'm aware of.
As I and others have said, the old bug ship is not getting the full suite of T6 capabilities. Namely the trait and boff seating and use of intel/command abilities. The blog was therefore misleading. If they'd qualified the statement to say some T6 capabilities or otherwise, people complaining wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
I don't think it was deliberate however, just poor wording from whoever wrote the blog. But with something like this, they should know people were going to get butthurt over it.
I think I've said multiple times poor wording, or even internal communication between departments within Cryptic, is likely the entire cause of this issue...
And I'm afraid this is merely your opinion as you've failed to bring anything new to the discussion...
I think I've said multiple times poor wording, or even internal communication between departments within Cryptic, is likely the entire cause of this issue...
Yeah, it's called boredom and this has been a suitable diversion...
From what I've read, it's the opinion of most people on here. You've failed to make your point or any argument. But thanks for trying.
And I'm afraid this is merely your opinion as you've failed to bring anything new to the discussion...
I think I've said multiple times poor wording, or even internal communication between departments within Cryptic, is likely the entire cause of this issue...
Yeah, it's called boredom and this has been a suitable diversion...
That was the kind of response I was expecting. Thanks, I was warned.
I've been in the discussion from the start on various threads, so from that perspective, you've brought nothing new.
If you want people to take you seriously, try putting forward a solid argument.
If you've come to the forums to complain about the AFK system, it's known to be bugged at the moment.
That was the kind of response I was expecting. Thanks, I was warned.
I've been in the discussion from the start on various threads, so from that perspective, you've brought nothing new.
If you want people to take you seriously, try putting forward a solid argument.
You open saying I completely wrong in my opinions and finish by suggesting I have some sort of issue, and you actually expect me to bother responding seriously, beyond the abridged answers I gave you?
Well, don't you think highly of your opinions... Thank you, I've been warned...
Don't feed the troll folks. Just ignore him like you would any random person who comes on the forums and shouts "Cryptic Sucks!!!!"
The fact that his view is the polar opposite of the usual forum troll doesn't make him any less of a forum troll. Anyone who says that it's the people complaining who make this community seem toxic needs to go through this particular person's posting history.
From what I've read, it's the opinion of most people on here. You've failed to make your point or any argument. But thanks for trying.
Ummm... Yes, you did... I've been pretty clear from the start where I stand on this, which is why so many have disagreed with me I might add... But anyway...
Don't feed the troll folks. Just ignore him like you would any random person who comes on the forums and shouts "Cryptic Sucks!!!!"
The fact that his view is the polar opposite of the usual forum troll doesn't make him any less of a forum troll. Anyone who says that it's the people complaining who make this community seem toxic needs to go through this particular person's posting history.
Wow... That's funny, but not unexpected from yourself...
Surprised you haven't tried to declare me a white knight, but then again, I've acknowledged Cryptic are far from perfect, so instead, you resort to calling me a troll...
Ummm... Yes, you did... I've been pretty clear from the start where I stand on this, which is why so many have disagreed with me I might add... But anyway...
You've just quoted me. All I said there was it was the opinion of most people. I think you're wrong, a lot of people do. But were it to come to some kind of arbitration, it doesn't necessarily mean you'd be judged as such.
Be fair - he isn't a forum troll; he just happens to have an opinion on something that many don't agree with.
And I respect his opinion; that does not, however, mean that I have to agree with it.
^^ This.
He's not a troll. Just a regular forum visitor who sometimes likes to bud head a bit. In that sense, I suppose we're all innately 'Troll Capable' that way.
Don't feed the troll folks. Just ignore him like you would any random person who comes on the forums and shouts "Cryptic Sucks!!!!"
The fact that his view is the polar opposite of the usual forum troll doesn't make him any less of a forum troll. Anyone who says that it's the people complaining who make this community seem toxic needs to go through this particular person's posting history.
Good one. Made me laugh. But you're right, the two guys should stop feeding him.
"With the release of Star Trek Online: Delta Rising, this starship (either from this run of the promotion or from previous runs) will be upgradeable to Tier 6 starship capabilities at no cost." -STO
Being in a minority does not automatically disprove my stance, but thanks for trying...
You open saying I completely wrong in my opinions and finish by suggesting I have some sort of issue, and you actually expect me to bother responding seriously, beyond the abridged answers I gave you?
Well, don't you think highly of your opinions... Thank you, I've been warned...
You'll notice I actually said "on pretty much everything"...that doesn't mean everything, I am sorry if you misunderstood that.
Issue was perhaps the wrong word, I'm happy to retract that (not a lot of that goes on). It'd perhaps have been better had I said something like you've got a bee in your bonnet on this. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
As to the status of my opinions? I wouldn't postulate that I feel "highly" of them. It's just my opinion.
If you've come to the forums to complain about the AFK system, it's known to be bugged at the moment.
Do I feel 'entitled' to a free upgrade to a JHSS? No.
Do I think Cryptic should offer a paid upgrade path (not gamble) to allow existing JHAS to become JHSS? Yes.
And here is why...it's all about showing players that investment now will be worth something later.
The speed at which new shiny +1 ships are being released is getting frightening.
As I have said before previously, before DR, your top of the range new toy would be exactly that - top of the range - for a good year or more (two in the case of the original JHAS).
Now that DR has hit we have seen a massive acceleration in promotions, new mechanics, and new tiers of ships being released: T6-intel, T6-fleet (delta lockbox and vaadwar lock box) T6-fleet/command. Each step more powerful than the last in base stats/abilities (rather than just offering different opportunities). Now the JHSS is T6-fleet/command/intel, so is another step up. It is superior to the original JHAS in so many ways (+5 base engine power, additional LTC power (uni), LtC tac becomes LtC tac/intel hybrid, Lt uni becomes Lt uni/command hybrid, T5 mastery trait).
Not allowing the older end-game ships an upgrade path and expecting players to open their wallets and pay AGAIN and IN FULL sets a ridiculous precedent in mnullifying previous investment and in the end has players asking the following two questions:
1) Why would I purchase a new shiny now if I know that in two months something better will come out and outclass it and that all my investment in said shiny will be lost? (ie no upgrade path)
2) Given my answer to 1), why would I purchase a new shiny when my existing ship performs admirably in all the situations I use it for? (ie lack of truely testing content/worthwhile reward structures and non-existant PvP)
This is the whole issue that Cryptic are facing and the longer they ignore it and white-knights defend them the worse it gets for all of us. The less money they will make, the less happy players will become, the more +1 shinies they will release. It is a vicious cycle, and in this one we don't get any undine marks, isomorphic injections nor argonite for taking part.
Comments
Yep... As I've said repeatedly... Not a broken promise, just a really bad choice in wording or a statement made before T5U was fully fleshed out...
Also, baring in mind Trendy (as far as I am aware) is not involved in development of such mechanics, the entire issue could very well have stemmed from information on how T5U would function not being entirely clear at the time of posting...
My signature was dig at such people, yes it was...
What is quite amusing here however is that you've zeroed in on my signature at all, as I have not once mentioned that this expectation that the JHAS should be a T6 is an entitlement mentality...
It either indicates that it's strikes a nerve with you, as you yourself believe that such attitudes are representative of an entitlement mentality, but don't wish to admit it, or you are once again throwing up yet another (third now I believe) straw man argument by turning this into me apparently having an issue with entitled individuals...
Try harder...
Precisely. Clarification was sought directly, and like i said, indiectly, by many lockbox owners also wanting a free T6 Upgrade token for their lockbox ships too (we didn't know exactly, then, what mechanism would be used to upgrade the Bug ship). And never, at any point, did Cryptic come out and say, "No, no, this is all a big misunderstanding. We really just meant T5-U!" If ever there was eminent domain to do so, it was then.
While we're at it, a T5 ship could be said to be 'T5-U Capable', because it can gain access to T5-U (via an Upgrade token). Similarly, no T5-U ship can be said to be 'T6 Capable' in the same sense. Only thru a rather lame way, by arguing T5-U are still 'competitive', and therefore somehow magically 'T6 Capable.' Trust me, if that ever came up in a Court, it wouldn't hold up.
With the exception of a single Boff ability, and the ship trait that defines a T6, T5U have everything else...
They have the 4 initial Ship Mastery levels.
The have the scaling hull.
They have an additional console slot.
This could be interpreted as having 'T6 capabilities'... Which has been the basis of my stance from the beginning...
I guess we shall never know, but I personally doubt it would be as clear cut as you think...
Free Tibet!
But there's already a term for ships that can do all that.... T5-U.
Yup, guess we'll never know, as I reckon no one would be insane enough to ever sue over this; on that we can probably agree.
Who's taken it personally so far?
Which brings me back to it being very poorly worded... I can see where people are coming from, however, I simply disagree with the interpretation and am yet to see an argument which has convinced me to interpret the sentiment in any form, other than what I have stated...
Since we are quite literally just rehashing the same points, at this point, this is gonna have to be a case of agreeing to disagree, we could be here all night otherwise...
Yeah, I honestly cannot say with absolute certainty which way it would fall, but I'm definitely not convinced that it's a clear cut case of 'false advertising'...
Cryptic stated the ship will be upgradeable to T6 starship capabilities. This really looks like it is not going to happen. There is also no T5U ship which has T6 capabilities that I'm aware of.
As I and others have said, the old bug ship is not getting the full suite of T6 capabilities. Namely the trait and boff seating and use of intel/command abilities. The blog was therefore misleading. If they'd qualified the statement to say some T6 capabilities or otherwise, people complaining wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
I don't think it was deliberate however, just poor wording from whoever wrote the blog. But with something like this, they should know people were going to get butthurt over it.
As to the entitlement issue thing, I wouldn't say you necessarily do, but there seems to be an issue with something.
Nor can I, tbh. Hard to predict the future is. Especially when it pertains to legal matters.
Whatever any legal outcome would be, I can readily see how ppl felt misled by this, though. It would certainly have been a lot cleaner, ethically, if they had just answered ppl who asked for clarification, and just said they had ill-worded it, and just meant T5-U. I hope, for future reference, that they will take that high road from here on in.
You would have no luck in a court. Who would you sue in the first place? Cryptic, PWE or PWI?
You agreed to all the above when creating an account, so you signed away all your rights for all ingame items, characters and your account. (You can read them all and see what you have claim on :rolleyes: )
T5-U are by Cryptic/PWE standards T6 capable (what they have confirmed in several posts afterwards). It's not a T6 ship, but they never actually said/wrote you would get a T6 ship. Just the appropriate capabilities, what you get by the T5-Upgrade.
Sorry for the English skills here. So tired and doesn't really care.
And I'm afraid this is merely your opinion as you've failed to bring anything new to the discussion...
I think I've said multiple times poor wording, or even internal communication between departments within Cryptic, is likely the entire cause of this issue...
Yeah, it's called boredom and this has been a suitable diversion...
From what I've read, it's the opinion of most people on here. You've failed to make your point or any argument. But thanks for trying.
That was the kind of response I was expecting. Thanks, I was warned.
I've been in the discussion from the start on various threads, so from that perspective, you've brought nothing new.
If you want people to take you seriously, try putting forward a solid argument.
Being in a minority does not automatically disprove my stance, but thanks for trying...
You open saying I completely wrong in my opinions and finish by suggesting I have some sort of issue, and you actually expect me to bother responding seriously, beyond the abridged answers I gave you?
Well, don't you think highly of your opinions... Thank you, I've been warned...
Never said it did, thanks for trying.
The fact that his view is the polar opposite of the usual forum troll doesn't make him any less of a forum troll. Anyone who says that it's the people complaining who make this community seem toxic needs to go through this particular person's posting history.
Free Tibet!
Oh guys, stop it! Next thing ppl will starting making "Thanks for trying!" banners! :P
Ummm... Yes, you did... I've been pretty clear from the start where I stand on this, which is why so many have disagreed with me I might add... But anyway...
Wow... That's funny, but not unexpected from yourself...
Surprised you haven't tried to declare me a white knight, but then again, I've acknowledged Cryptic are far from perfect, so instead, you resort to calling me a troll...
You've just quoted me. All I said there was it was the opinion of most people. I think you're wrong, a lot of people do. But were it to come to some kind of arbitration, it doesn't necessarily mean you'd be judged as such.
^^ This.
He's not a troll. Just a regular forum visitor who sometimes likes to bud head a bit. In that sense, I suppose we're all innately 'Troll Capable' that way.
Good one. Made me laugh. But you're right, the two guys should stop feeding him.
You'll notice I actually said "on pretty much everything"...that doesn't mean everything, I am sorry if you misunderstood that.
Issue was perhaps the wrong word, I'm happy to retract that (not a lot of that goes on). It'd perhaps have been better had I said something like you've got a bee in your bonnet on this. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
As to the status of my opinions? I wouldn't postulate that I feel "highly" of them. It's just my opinion.
199? Damn, way too high. It should go back to good old days of sub 100.
Do I feel 'entitled' to a free upgrade to a JHSS? No.
Do I think Cryptic should offer a paid upgrade path (not gamble) to allow existing JHAS to become JHSS? Yes.
And here is why...it's all about showing players that investment now will be worth something later.
The speed at which new shiny +1 ships are being released is getting frightening.
As I have said before previously, before DR, your top of the range new toy would be exactly that - top of the range - for a good year or more (two in the case of the original JHAS).
Now that DR has hit we have seen a massive acceleration in promotions, new mechanics, and new tiers of ships being released: T6-intel, T6-fleet (delta lockbox and vaadwar lock box) T6-fleet/command. Each step more powerful than the last in base stats/abilities (rather than just offering different opportunities). Now the JHSS is T6-fleet/command/intel, so is another step up. It is superior to the original JHAS in so many ways (+5 base engine power, additional LTC power (uni), LtC tac becomes LtC tac/intel hybrid, Lt uni becomes Lt uni/command hybrid, T5 mastery trait).
Not allowing the older end-game ships an upgrade path and expecting players to open their wallets and pay AGAIN and IN FULL sets a ridiculous precedent in mnullifying previous investment and in the end has players asking the following two questions:
1) Why would I purchase a new shiny now if I know that in two months something better will come out and outclass it and that all my investment in said shiny will be lost? (ie no upgrade path)
2) Given my answer to 1), why would I purchase a new shiny when my existing ship performs admirably in all the situations I use it for? (ie lack of truely testing content/worthwhile reward structures and non-existant PvP)
This is the whole issue that Cryptic are facing and the longer they ignore it and white-knights defend them the worse it gets for all of us. The less money they will make, the less happy players will become, the more +1 shinies they will release. It is a vicious cycle, and in this one we don't get any undine marks, isomorphic injections nor argonite for taking part.
...#LLAP...