Y I know its easy with 5x 50kers but there are not many 50kers. Yet.
I puged isa and won it. I'm good thank you. I stoped puging 1 week after DR when people started catching up to lvl 60. Elite's should be available to those who can beat Advanced with good scores.
Not everyone.
So why did you stop pugging after DR...Did it get too hard to pug or did all the fails turn you off?
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Personally I cant stand it if players who spend their PvE time hiding behind some elite or dps channels come to forums and brag about how easy elite contend is. Everything else is cool.
Depending on the strength of your team assembled or gambled you can basically set the difficulty for yourself from 100% to 0% and there is nothing easy or difficult about it.
Everybody who thinks of himself to be worthy enough fit into those channels should be able by now to run some sort of risk assessment about every one of those meagre selection of maps.
Do I pug DRE all by myself? Sure thing cuz I know for certain I can conclude 40-60% of that map allone leaving the same amount for FOUR OTHER PLAYERS to do. Sure it can still fail but in my experience the chances are slim thanks to my contribution. And even so fife minutes lost and probably a toonjump in order so what?
Other maps like NTTE I dont pug by myself but rather run it with 2 friends I know I can rely on. Same result. Only if the remaining 2 pugs are a total disaster we end up in a fail but then again not much lost.
Sure if you are a die hard pugger (which I respect very much) and decide to go for a 15 min PvE where only at the end a challenge awaits then you could end up disappointed.
Tell you what? I pug one way or the others on almost a daily basis and Im proud to report that in most cases I rather end up surprised by the pugs more that I am annoyed.
STOs players are getting good and its only a matter of time in my opinion until the average team prevails in pve again. Like mentioned in post #2 the reward/effort ratio on the right maps is dizzing and there for us to be taken before Cryptic in their unbelievable helplessness (sorry guys but you really seem to act that way with your players) cant do anything else but to nerf it again.
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"Do I pug DRE all by myself? Sure thing cuz I know for certain I can conclude 40-60% of that map allone leaving the same amount for FOUR OTHER PLAYERS to do. Sure it can still fail but in my experience the chances are slim thanks to my contribution. And even so fife minutes lost and probably a toonjump in order so what?"
I've been in ANRAs where I clear/free 2 stations and the other 4 puggers can't do a single t'liss by themselves in 3 minutes. It happens. Frequently, actually.
I have been in ISAs that failed because someone went right alone and I'm the only one taking damage on the left because the npcs refuse to attack the other players. Getting over 50% of the damage is a liability sometimes and it doesn't matter if your teammates. have. heals!
I've failed a few Korfez pugs that were going just fine until the 4th phase because everyone attacked the spam instead of the dread and its torps. Sorry, I don't have the 200k dps necessary to take out the dread alone.
You're right about the issue. The overall the fail rate may be more or less where Cryptic wants it, even though dps channel queues are winning nearly 100% of the time and pugs 0% of the time and other private queues somewhere in between.
The only thing Cryptic could do is impose some kind of standard on doing advanced/elite content (pass a test round, get an accolade, something) so that the pugs can catch up to the private queues. Doing so (along with providing basic build/strategy help, or even just links to some great advice already available online) would:
a) let people know that their build/piloting isn't that great (I thought I was pretty good way back in the day when I finished the episode content and was level 50, but oh man did I suck), and
b) inspire people to actually take the time and learn the game's basic mechanics (not necessarily fancy stuff like overcapping or where to get a GDF in a mission, but basic stuff like not running rainbow builds or setting up your weapons so that they can all fire without your ship doing 180's all the time).
The only reason so many people are "hiding" in those dps channels is because Cryptic hasn't/probably won't do that so the DPS channels are a way of players imposing a basic standard on one another. Even queues that originate in DPS-10K (really, not that high at all and you can do it with mk 12 exchange gear and/or in any ship or play-style out there) are like night and day compared to pugs because people generally know how to point their ship at something, use boff abilities as frequently as possible, and actually do the mission objectives.
The only reason so many people are "hiding" in those dps channels is because Cryptic hasn't/probably won't do that so the DPS channels are a way of players imposing a basic standard on one another. Even queues that originate in DPS-10K (really, not that high at all and you can do it with mk 12 exchange gear and/or in any ship or play-style out there) are like night and day compared to pugs because people generally know how to point their ship at something, use boff abilities as frequently as possible, and actually do the mission objectives.
And thats totally OK for me.
I just wanted to point out that word easy related to elite contend is something highly circumstantial.
If somebody seeks a challenge, I just think that making this game harder is not the way to go but trying to carry and teach new players while filling the deserted queue lists could be. There I feel challenged, in the public elite stf and in dps 10.000 channels im subscribed as well, I do not.
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1 very high DPS player usually is enough for BHE and can carry the whole team.
Tacs are optimal for NTTE since you have a very short time in NTTE. Not unlike in BHE wherein you need sustained DPS thus more favorable to Eng toons.
Sci. They are not needed in the ground nor they are competitive. Optimal toons in NTTE are Tacs followed by Engs.
I doubt the OP do most premades. Private queues are not premades. You still have to queue up and you have no idea what your teammate builds are initially. The difference between PuGs and DPS channel is that DPS channels have minimum requirements. So you at least know your teammates have the basic knowledge of the game.
If you need tacs to finish NTTE on time you're doing it wrong, but then you also think that Sci's aren't competitive, so I can't really take that seriously.
Actually I would call a private queue from a channel more premade than pugging a queue, because regardless the odds of you completing the mission from the channels is much better than pugging any day, and honestly, if the players are competent you could run a mission practically with junk and still win. When they actually bother to make the Elites genuinely Elite then things will get interesting.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Normal should be playable to all of the players unless you and your group is utterly abysmal. If you want to do elite, you must be an elite level player and in an elite group just to do it. It is called Elite mission for a reason.
So... you're one of the top 1% who wants less than 1% to be able to do the content. Claps. Do you really think a couple hundred people can keep the game going?
One of my characters is around the top 1% on the ground. But I pug. Pugging IS the game. It has been for almost 5 years. This is how 95% or more of the playerbase interacts. They have not moved to private queues. That is not the reason the missions are empty. They have simply quit playing them. Which is obviously sooo healthy for the game.
These missions are #$%&@ing fine the way they are. Leave them alone and let NTTE be the speed challenge for those wanting a pug challenge. Go play some supaaa leeeet gamaa game. Stop trying to shut this game down.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If you need tacs to finish NTTE on time you're doing it wrong, but then you also think that Sci's aren't competitive, so I can't really take that seriously.
I think so as well. In fact in NTTE I favour my engineer. Cool DPS while having at least some shield heals. My Scies sadly stay at home there. They on the other hand remain my first choice on UIE. If the temple quest pops, and no matter how good the team is in defending it, some decent heals on the preacher seem needed. Could be that the Undine pull some psi stuff on him but I dont know. In any case a cool map for toons or teams in general which are low on dps.
But I pug. Pugging IS the game. It has been for almost 5 years. This is how 95% or more of the playerbase interacts.
Well it truly is a shame you know. When I popped into Wolf 359 the other day to get my anniversary TRIBBLE going the instance was FULL of players hovering within the derbies field playing this ridiculous omega game.
Kk those thingies do some good on mk2 gear and wheeee need no dil when applied but sorry I rather get my salvage in pve right along with the Dil to apply it instead of doing this mindless activity like a Zombie for hours.
The in game population seems huge on occasion yet the queue list remains empty. The more I think of it the more Im afraid that cryptic simply wants to shift the game away from team play and especially the meeting of likeminded players in pugs into a more solo player oriented game.
Lol sorry for the off topic rant but this whole empty queue and everybody is doing omega grind instead was as close to battery farming as it can get.
Happy 5th anniversary STO.
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Hard to say really how many it's pulling from the queues. When I do my run of elites the longest waiting time is NTTE - can be 10 minutes. I believe you can figure the waiting time by the % chance of failure.
Overall if the chance of failure is too high the mission will slip to a big Zero and seldom pop again. This is THE indication of what the players want. They want to be able to complete the missions.
The outlier being BDA I guess because enough new people come to it as the main new mission.
For me the only important question is what percentages make the game healthy and sustainable.
I believe that is top 10% for elite. And top 50% for advanced. With a >50% success rate in all cases.
We're close to this in many missions. While others (mostly the argonite missions) are not even close - with sub 10% success rates.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
For me the only important question is what percentages make the game healthy and sustainable.
I believe that is top 10% for elite. And top 50% for advanced. With a >50% success rate in all cases.
These sounds like solid thoughts but I'd rather also see elite above 50%.
What makes estimates a bit hard in my opinion is the massive abyss in difficulty/successrate between some advanced and elite maps, especially under the reward/effort ratio. And I dont mean elite being harder here at all.
How is (my favourite map) IGA (yea you read correctly) by all means supposed to be filled with DRE as competitor in the same queue list? How can new players even find out what is right for them then?
For the time being Im just happy that some mission at least can be quead for. Taking a friend/fleetmate or two and simply PUG UP has been my live in STO the past 3 years. If this works I can still have fun (and will invest probably millions of fun earned dil in the upgrade system). If not, fin! There is no need to invest RL money for dil or ships when one cant put it to good use in the end. I was obviously under a huge error in judgment when I thought Id buy a full queue list as part of my lifetime sub a few years ago.
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I think so as well. In fact in NTTE I favour my engineer. Cool DPS while having at least some shield heals. My Scies sadly stay at home there. They on the other hand remain my first choice on UIE. If the temple quest pops, and no matter how good the team is in defending it, some decent heals on the preacher seem needed. Could be that the Undine pull some psi stuff on him but I dont know. In any case a cool map for toons or teams in general which are low on dps.
Honestly in the right hands a Sci can be good anywhere, its just a shame so many people have no idea how to play one. The other thing is though, is that I play with some pretty epic people and we're a little too good at bouncing off one another to make more efficient progress in the missions. Also prefer health heals over shields, though I do have a shield tank engi that works reasonably well.
On the thread topic though, we do need better Elite modes, this whole thing with the hull increases being the only real change was rather lame. We need more intelligent AI, unique non-time based optionals (plenty of them too) and also I'd like to see space and ground combined as part of the Elite level so that they are a real test and not what we have now which is a DPS fest and not much else.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Honestly in the right hands a Sci can be good anywhere, its just a shame so many people have no idea how to play one. The other thing is though, is that I play with some pretty epic people and we're a little too good at bouncing off one another to make more efficient progress in the missions. Also prefer health heals over shields, though I do have a shield tank engi that works reasonably well.
On the thread topic though, we do need better Elite modes, this whole thing with the hull increases being the only real change was rather lame. We need more intelligent AI, unique non-time based optionals (plenty of them too) and also I'd like to see space and ground combined as part of the Elite level so that they are a real test and not what we have now which is a DPS fest and not much else.
Oh true.
Well a bit of variety is there like freeing hostages or doing interviews but it all remains very rudimentary. As far as higher difficulty is concerned current PvE basically only leaves puging or taking new fleet members as option. Of course the line between feeling challenged or feeling annoyed is rather thin.
Im curious what kind of elite stuff we get next. Personally I hope for the classic Borg STF (they once were ground and space combined) or Terradome (which had that as well) but somehow I doubt to see that happen.
PS. If you can give any advise how to strengthen my Scis for NTTE id appreciate it. Mine really seem to lack offensive capabilities there, especially compared to my engineers or tacs.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
So... you're one of the top 1% who wants less than 1% to be able to do the content. Claps. Do you really think a couple hundred people can keep the game going?
One of my characters is around the top 1% on the ground. But I pug. Pugging IS the game. It has been for almost 5 years. This is how 95% or more of the playerbase interacts. They have not moved to private queues. That is not the reason the missions are empty. They have simply quit playing them. Which is obviously sooo healthy for the game.
These missions are #$%&@ing fine the way they are. Leave them alone and let NTTE be the speed challenge for those wanting a pug challenge. Go play some supaaa leeeet gamaa game. Stop trying to shut this game down.
Well said, but sadly they wont stop till they will ruin this game so only their lil DPS gang can complete it. Its like talking to the walls. They may be smart and capable, but very egoistic and short sighted ppl.
One thing tho. Its kinda funny that these so called elite players dont go towards PvP. Thats far more challanging then any PvE. Ohh, right... there the enemies think, outsmart you and fight back you:rolleyes:
Well it truly is a shame you know. When I popped into Wolf 359 the other day to get my anniversary TRIBBLE going the instance was FULL of players hovering within the derbies field playing this ridiculous omega game.
Kk those thingies do some good on mk2 gear and wheeee need no dil when applied but sorry I rather get my salvage in pve right along with the Dil to apply it instead of doing this mindless activity like a Zombie for hours.
The in game population seems huge on occasion yet the queue list remains empty. The more I think of it the more Im afraid that cryptic simply wants to shift the game away from team play and especially the meeting of likeminded players in pugs into a more solo player oriented game.
Lol sorry for the off topic rant but this whole empty queue and everybody is doing omega grind instead was as close to battery farming as it can get.
Happy 5th anniversary STO.
Ppl do the omega grind (and some others argala) becouse they dont have anything worthy to do. There arent some masochistic timers and fail conditions nor cooldowns for fails to TRIBBLE you up.
The queues's fail conditions and fail cd also makes them a waste of time. You can get only 10 marks and a "bonus" of 1 hour CD for 20-30 mins of gameplay. Yeah... TRIBBLE that.
Ppl that do the omega game are not to blame, but Cryptic and the morrons that cry for harder content becouse they are too afraid to PvP or they suck at it getting their asses kicked and need some DPS numbers to boost their ego.
Honestly in the right hands a Sci can be good anywhere, its just a shame so many people have no idea how to play one. The other thing is though, is that I play with some pretty epic people and we're a little too good at bouncing off one another to make more efficient progress in the missions. Also prefer health heals over shields, though I do have a shield tank engi that works reasonably well.
On the thread topic though, we do need better Elite modes, this whole thing with the hull increases being the only real change was rather lame. We need more intelligent AI, unique non-time based optionals (plenty of them too) and also I'd like to see space and ground combined as part of the Elite level so that they are a real test and not what we have now which is a DPS fest and not much else.
I agree with everything. I play 99% of my time with a sci too.
@snipey I never mentioned HSE or HGE as easy and needing a boost.
I concur with a new standard for Elite games besides lvl 60. Like Bug Hunt, you got to complete a normal mission first, then win the [advanced] to get to [elite].
That sounds good as a start, beating the advanced at least once before you can play Elite.
And in case some of you have forgotten. Pre-DR elites == After-DR advanced.
It is not absolutely necessary to focus your "puging" in elite games.
And if you think you can win an [Elite] "dungeon" anywhere in any game without a pre-made team and some kind of strategy, YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.
PS. If you can give any advise how to strengthen my Scis for NTTE id appreciate it. Mine really seem to lack offensive capabilities there, especially compared to my engineers or tacs.
It could be a few things, like having 9 points in skills when you really shouldn't go past 6. If you have the endothermic kit module (as opposed to exothermic) that is pretty decent at dishing out damage alongside hyperonic radiation. 6 points in particle physics will buff those pretty well, and if you have a kit with [Part] on it should make a noticeable improvement again.
What weapons you choose to use probably depends on how often you get to exploit and how far away from you're target you tend to be.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
One thing tho. Its kinda funny that these so called elite players dont go towards PvP. Thats far more challanging then any PvE. Ohh, right... there the enemies think, outsmart you and fight back you:rolleyes:
I like how there are still pvp'ers on the forums. It's adorable!
I did PVP once since DR. It took over an hour to get enough people for the arena to pop. When it did it was less PVP and more PVGPU, what with all the new animations. Someone with a Faeht and Surgical Strikes took me out a few times when I couldn't even see them and it was over in like 3 minutes.
I mean, I'm sure whoever had that Faeht had some fun laughing at me. Good for them. But I never signed up for a PVP queue again, and I'm guessing I'm not alone considering how much emptier the PVP queues are compared to the PVE queues. So joke's on them.
If you need tacs to finish NTTE on time you're doing it wrong, but then you also think that Sci's aren't competitive, so I can't really take that seriously.
Actually I would call a private queue from a channel more premade than pugging a queue, because regardless the odds of you completing the mission from the channels is much better than pugging any day, and honestly, if the players are competent you could run a mission practically with junk and still win. When they actually bother to make the Elites genuinely Elite then things will get interesting.
I never Said you need Tacs to finish NTTE. I said Tacs are optimal for NTTE. You are Trying to twist what I said.
So... you're one of the top 1% who wants less than 1% to be able to do the content. Claps. Do you really think a couple hundred people can keep the game going?
Again, Why do all playerbase need to do elite content? Are all players spoiled and self entitled like players who whine in the forums? Players can still do normal content.
One of my characters is around the top 1% on the ground. But I pug. Pugging IS the game. It has been for almost 5 years. This is how 95% or more of the playerbase interacts. They have not moved to private queues. That is not the reason the missions are empty. They have simply quit playing them. Which is obviously sooo healthy for the game.
I dont see your account name at the Top 1%. it is the account name they count not the character name. Because if your claim is true that you are Top 1%, you are dealing 600 DPS for BHE/1,000 DPS+ for NTTE. thats enough to do PuG ground Elite content and succeed most of the time since you can carry the whole PuG groups DPS.
The claim that majority of the queues are PuGs, that has been a fallacy since DR. What holds true 3 years ago isnt true today.
And if you think you can win an [Elite] "dungeon" anywhere in any game without a pre-made team and some kind of strategy, YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.
This was nearly 100% possible in the game Star Trek Online as of October 13, 2014.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I dont see your account name at the Top 1%. it is the account name they count not the character name. Because if your claim is true that you are Top 1%, you are dealing 600 DPS for BHE/1,000 DPS+ for NTTE. thats enough to do PuG ground Elite content and succeed most of the time since you can carry the whole PuG groups DPS.
The claim that majority of the queues are PuGs, that has been a fallacy since DR. What holds true 3 years ago isnt true today.
I am not affiliated with any dps channel or list. I can carry about 50% of most of these missions - such as DRE, BHE. Only about 25% in Nukara for some reason.
3 years?? It's only 3 months.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I never Said you need Tacs to finish NTTE. I said Tacs are optimal for NTTE. You are Trying to twist what I said.
I see no Sci toons at Top 15 at NTTE.
Again, Why do all playerbase need to do elite content? Are all players spoiled and self entitled like players who whine in the forums? Players can still do normal content.
I dont see your account name at the Top 1%. it is the account name they count not the character name. Because if your claim is true that you are Top 1%, you are dealing 600 DPS for BHE/1,000 DPS+ for NTTE. thats enough to do PuG ground Elite content and succeed most of the time since you can carry the whole PuG groups DPS.
The claim that majority of the queues are PuGs, that has been a fallacy since DR. What holds true 3 years ago isnt true today.
Not how your original post read, certainly can be taken that way. But thanks a lot for showing all you can comprehend are the DPS numbers, as I assume you are quoting them from the league table on the log reader? You don't win anything but fake ego competitions doing it that way, and also show up how little you know about the game, that DPS, by your logic is ground king?
As I said before, I can't take your previous statement seriously, this one is even worse. You don't have a wider understanding on the potential of how the systems can interact, that's your problem and I have no qualms if you want to stay that way. After all, I sure don't feel spoilt or egoistic knowing how things work, I just enjoy working out the real optimal then seeing how it works in practice. The worst thing to do is let yourself get blinded by a single way of working.
Considering the rest of your post is deluded and elitist rubbish I'll leave it there, I can't take people seriously when they insist on your kind of mindset.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I find this conversation interesting as I do prefer to PUG ground missions. I enjoy pugging them.
In my recent Redshirt Survival Guide Part 1 and Part 2 i tried to bring closer BHE , DRSE and NTTE to begginers with absolute low cost (1mil EC) and yet efficient gear.
Promptly i have received a PM from a very condescending player from DPS channels how I am only 470 or smtn on NTTE leaderboard and i dare make guides. :roleyes:
I didn't even parse ground missions anyway.
Then i have equipped just bit better gear and lookie there, jumped to 43. spot (now 50)
in NTTE league same day. like it means anything with all the bombardment of concussive tachyon delta t5.
Others have commented how i should put 4mil EC TR-116 in my 1 milEC build, then some more why am i not in constant crouch position. smh
Few days past and i started joining DPS channel 10,30, 50k DRSE, BHE, NTTE, NSDTE runs.
Surprisingly, such teams failed more then Pugs. with all by the book DPS.
That is my experience, one could have different.
But yeah, I will always prefer to pug in ground combat.
In space, well yeah, good dps group will finish the mission more quickly which is my goal to get the stuff i need.
I find this conversation interesting as I do prefer to PUG ground missions. I enjoy pugging them.
In my recent Redshirt Survival Guide Part 1 and Part 2 i tried to bring closer BHE , DRSE and NTTE to begginers with absolute low cost (1mil EC) and yet efficient gear.
Promptly i have received a PM from a very condescending player from DPS channels how I am only 470 or smtn on NTTE leaderboard and i dare make guides. :roleyes:
I didn't even parse ground missions anyway.
Then i have equipped just bit better gear and lookie there, jumped to 43. spot (now 50)
in NTTE league same day. like it means anything with all the bombardment of concussive tachyon delta t5.
Others have commented how i should put 4mil EC TR-116 in my 1 milEC build, then some more why am i not in constant crouch position. smh
Few days past and i started joining DPS channel 10,30, 50k DRSE, BHE, NTTE, NSDTE runs.
Surprisingly, such teams failed more then Pugs. with all by the book DPS.
That is my experience, one could have different.
But yeah, I will always prefer to pug in ground combat.
In space, well yeah, good dps group will finish the mission more quickly which is my goal to get the stuff i need.
Shar, as much as I have real issues with that guide because of the premise it works from, no one has any business saying that people can't make guides just because of some table. I said since before they released that parser that people taking league tables too seriously would lead to ill use of them to bad ends, looks like that's now been proven right
I've made guides to help people as well, other fleet members have contributed with their own material and as a result we've educated a lot of people on how the game works, and properly. There's a lot of people in this game and not enough educational material for it. It doesn't help when a lot of the material is wrong or utterly biased of course but that's another issue entirely.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Shar, as much as I have real issues with that guide because of the premise it works from, no one has any business saying that people can't make guides just because of some table. I said since before they released that parser that people taking league tables too seriously would lead to ill use of them to bad ends, looks like that's now been proven right
I've made guides to help people as well, other fleet members have contributed with their own material and as a result we've educated a lot of people on how the game works, and properly. There's a lot of people in this game and not enough educational material for it. It doesn't help when a lot of the material is wrong or utterly biased of course but that's another issue entirely.
That Premise you don't like being?
I have just equipped most inexpensive but still efficient stuff i could find, filled holes with adapted maco 2pc and shattering harmonics for NTTE.
It works without ground traits, without expensive LB kits and with a weapon that costs 4250 dil.
Look, I am long time on DPS channels, since 5k 11k and 20k in s7 or 8 i believe, kirks protege, real elite NWS, long time pvper and even longer a pug player and condensceding behaviour is not unusual in any of those groups.
My guide is not "do what i do or else" it's basically a "see what i do wrong/good and go from there"
I pugged and finished every mission in game. i did it also in premade groups, i have almost entire ground gear at my disposal and i could have made a video where i kneel and aim entire time or toss grenades, call orbital strikes, but i would never made such video.
It is not fun for me to play that way. FPS "Aiming" system dynamic is just not fun in STO, and kneeling trait, well fkn lol.
Its the same when someone says that spac tacs must use AP BFAW in PvE and CRF/BO escort in PvP or else low kill ratio/DPS. Same with Scis, engs etc.
There are numerous valid builds and play styles, why limit the horizon to "do this or less DPS"
It is always more fun if you can do it your way, isn't it?
Game is grindy enough, why not take a enormous minigun or whatever you like and just have fun if it worksfor you?
Not how your original post read, certainly can be taken that way. But thanks a lot for showing all you can comprehend are the DPS numbers, as I assume you are quoting them from the league table on the log reader? You don't win anything but fake ego competitions doing it that way, and also show up how little you know about the game, that DPS, by your logic is ground king?
As I said before, I can't take your previous statement seriously, this one is even worse. You don't have a wider understanding on the potential of how the systems can interact, that's your problem and I have no qualms if you want to stay that way. After all, I sure don't feel spoilt or egoistic knowing how things work, I just enjoy working out the real optimal then seeing how it works in practice. The worst thing to do is let yourself get blinded by a single way of working.
Considering the rest of your post is deluded and elitist rubbish I'll leave it there, I can't take people seriously when they insist on your kind of mindset.
Sheez. I entered the conversation because someone mentioned Sci toons are best/optimal for NTTE. Which I said are not. Which is a fact. Like I mentioned, Tacs are optimal for NTTE.
DPS is if you want to achieve an optimized state. But you cannot get away with Elite ground missions without anyone doing DPS. because you still have to kill the NPCs.
More likely it is you is hard headed. You just cant finish BHE nor NTTE with everyone parsing 50 DPS. You just cant. Do the math. BHE Spawnomother - 104k HP(with the ability to heal 100k HP) in 5 mins in 30 Secs vs 250 DPS total for the group.
Few days past and i started joining DPS channel 10,30, 50k DRSE, BHE, NTTE, NSDTE runs.
Surprisingly, such teams failed more then Pugs. with all by the book DPS.
Because you asked on space channels. Go to ground DPS channels and since you are parsing 400 DPS ask at DPS-400 for assured ground run quality.
It is the common mistake I see for players complaining that they are not getting ground quality runs on Space channels.
Nothing to be ashamed of really and I think the answer is simple. Even if you have superb skill/build and extraordinary DPS at your disposal, unlike BHE, it needs to be distributed over large areas of the map simultaneously or things just get harder (rifts-->>critters). This just seems to be impossible to be implemented 1 man so you simply rely on 1-2 potent team members at least.
Take DRE. I can clear 2 hostages of that map on my own without breaking into sweat (and if Im undisturbed as in pre-aggrovated Elachi groups). 3 works too depending on my toon. 4 is unlikely but not impossible if I have passive support in form of tac initiative but I see no chance I could free them all.
And in case some of you have forgotten. Pre-DR elites == After-DR advanced.
It is not absolutely necessary to focus your "puging" in elite games.
And if you think you can win an [Elite] "dungeon" anywhere in any game without a pre-made team and some kind of strategy, YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.
Well pre dr elite = post dr advanced is simply not true. Even if you have invested hundreds of thousands of dil into your star ship its simply false. But your thread is about elite and so we should spare ourselves that discussion.
I also pointed out that there is even an abyss between advanced and elite which definitely does NOT put elite on a harder scale throughout the bank. Also note that a lot of puggers only can run the elite version of a map because advanced and normal never pop at all.
Your thread is a cool one and seeing that peeps give advice or even links to tutorials is awesome. Nevertheless I dont see any form of mutual agreement between all participants because they are simply all right.
We have 3 groups.
1) Peeps well networked with fellow elite players via channels or fleets: I belong to that group and can confirm that many elite maps are as unchallenging as it can be if they are run in that fashion. I do it that way either for fun with friends or for grinding dil/mats/salvage but not for challange.
2) Experienced players who pug by choice and have their individual reason to do so: I belong to that group as well and when I do I want to be challenged and I am very much at that. When I run a solid risk assessment I often turn out to be successful. Sometimes Im even surprised in a positive way. On some occasions its very annoying though but then again its what I signed up for. Period.
3) Players who are new, not networked, inexperienced or what so ever. They are doomed to play omega game instead of PvE queues and the elite maps, including the rewards they offer, remain inaccessible. Normal or advanced modes are often deserted so no chance for them to see some stages at all.
Personally I doubt that cryptic can come with a satisfactory solution for all. In my opinion enhancing the difficulty even further is NOT the way to go. If players from group 1) get bored I understand that and my suggested workaround seems to do 2). In doing so you encounter a challenge and perhaps the community can be pushed forward to include 3) like they always were before Delta Rising hit us.
And for what its worth I still think cryptic should get rid of a lot of fail criteria. They move from not even be noteworthy in 1) to be unbearable in 3). I dont think they do any good at all. Cryptic could have easily revamped them into considerable additional rewards where the fulfilment or fail of former optional would dicede how much a team gets.
Why our publisher chose to dived the community instead of generating a positive game climate where every player no matter what standing he has could contribute to remains hidden from me and the most massive disappointment of DR in my opinion.
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Why our publisher chose to dived the community instead of generating a positive game climate where every player no matter what standing he has could contribute to remains hidden from me and the most massive disappointment of DR in my opinion.
It's greed, plain and simple. They want to frustrate that third group you mentioned into paying for what they believe are shortcuts that will let them play with the first two groups without getting yelled at.
Apparently, they are no longer content just making money off the people who have the spare cash to spend on the latest shiny when it comes out, or the hardcore PVE/PVPers who grab the shinies they believe they need to remain competitive.
"There will never be enough blood to wash away my need for vengeance! A single world...I could destroy a million worlds and it would not be enough! Your existence is an insult to the memory of my people! I will continue my fight, even if I must fight alone!"
I have just equipped most inexpensive but still efficient stuff i could find, filled holes with adapted maco 2pc and shattering harmonics for NTTE.
It works without ground traits, without expensive LB kits and with a weapon that costs 4250 dil.
Look, I am long time on DPS channels, since 5k 11k and 20k in s7 or 8 i believe, kirks protege, real elite NWS, long time pvper and even longer a pug player and condensceding behaviour is not unusual in any of those groups.
My guide is not "do what i do or else" it's basically a "see what i do wrong/good and go from there"
I pugged and finished every mission in game. i did it also in premade groups, i have almost entire ground gear at my disposal and i could have made a video where i kneel and aim entire time or toss grenades, call orbital strikes, but i would never made such video.
It is not fun for me to play that way. FPS "Aiming" system dynamic is just not fun in STO, and kneeling trait, well fkn lol.
Its the same when someone says that spac tacs must use AP BFAW in PvE and CRF/BO escort in PvP or else low kill ratio/DPS. Same with Scis, engs etc.
There are numerous valid builds and play styles, why limit the horizon to "do this or less DPS"
It is always more fun if you can do it your way, isn't it?
Game is grindy enough, why not take a enormous minigun or whatever you like and just have fun if it worksfor you?
Tell me one good reason.
I'm certainly not saying DPS or nothing, goes against what I've already said. I'm saying there's a right and wrong way about doing builds effectively, and behind that is how you go about funding them. Funding ground builds is not expensive if you are willing to learn how to make ec, that should have been the premise because honestly, I've always found that teaching people how to make some ec is the single best thing you can do.
If people want to make a specific type of ground build that is perfectly fine, but it isn't doing anyone a service telling them these builds done properly are expensive, I mean hell some of the best ground builds, DPS or otherwise, are cheap. The right and wrong way to do it is down to how you make that effective, which is most people's stumbling point from my experience over the years.
In short, teach people how to make easy ec and how to get over the effectiveness hurdle, the rest should fall into place in most cases.
Sheez. I entered the conversation because someone mentioned Sci toons are best/optimal for NTTE. Which I said are not. Which is a fact. Like I mentioned, Tacs are optimal for NTTE.
DPS is if you want to achieve an optimized state. But you cannot get away with Elite ground missions without anyone doing DPS. because you still have to kill the NPCs.
More likely it is you is hard headed. You just cant finish BHE nor NTTE with everyone parsing 50 DPS. You just cant. Do the math. BHE Spawnomother - 104k HP(with the ability to heal 100k HP) in 5 mins in 30 Secs vs 250 DPS total for the group.
I have adapted to the game. Have you?
Hang on a minute, 50 DPS isn't hard to break, I mean hell 250 DPS isn't difficult on ground, and you can get 300 DPS just with a pre-DR build that's made properly. Post-DR I'm still sorting out an experiment for that, but you seem to have missed the point of my post entirely about how other systems can work together to create better efficiency.
I'm trying to avoid talking about NTTE too much because it is such an easy mission, as is Bug Hunt and DRSE, they aren't a true test of anything so I am trying to be broad. Oh, and your maths only works if you're doing what I call brute force progression, in other words little to no obstacle removal, which is generally the case with mostly Tac teams.
Why our publisher chose to dived the community instead of generating a positive game climate where every player no matter what standing he has could contribute to remains hidden from me and the most massive disappointment of DR in my opinion.
No worries, hope it works for you.
I think the argument in here is just a case in point. My team and myself play this ground content in a way that is highly effective and takes full advantage of the different potentials of the options available to us, which just to add was done from us playing a style we enjoyed.
Pax is used to the DPS route and so will tout that horn until his fingers go numb, as I will my cause because we both find that they're optimal ways of doing things. I think though the real issue with DR was that the way Cryptic attempted to make things more difficult was so lame and cheap that it only exacerbated the differences between different parts of the community like our argument is beginning to show.
I agree with you entirely it is a sad state of affairs. However I feel that unless Cryptic makes more of an effort to make the end-game content something that compels us towards more challenging, fluid content that makes us want to diversify more, I think we can expect this kind of thing to continue, and truthfully that would suck because back in the day the community wasn't as divided as it is now.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I think though the real issue with DR was that the way Cryptic attempted to make things more difficult was so lame and cheap that it only exacerbated the differences between different parts of the community like our argument is beginning to show.
I can't agree there. Listen me out.
In space in DR they have introduced Battle of Korfez which is perfectly doable in full PUG.
First 10 times at least i won it that way. You need some high damage SPIKES but mobility and teamwork is more important.
and
Borg Disconected Elite
See, those two missions are done right.
I can completely ALONE clear at least half objectives throughout BDE just by saving ships and not firing 1 shot in a ship that can cloak. 0 DPS.
With 1 players on each side doing same you can do complete mission given how final 3 bosses are optional.
with 2 players on each side without anyone cloaking you can win it.
Further more, 2 players that will engage the enemy so others can save, don't need to push out DPS.
They just need to generate enough threat. With a cpt threat skill, AoE attacks, consoles, Delta Doffs etc.
They can have weapon power on minimum, focused on threat and survival, with minimum DPS and still do their part super effective.
Now ground.
DR introduced Bug Hunt.
It can be a bit chaotic in PUG group until you see what other people strengths are. Can they AoE, are they good in single target takedown, do the debuff, expose, etc.
Perfectly adaptable for any cpt. class with enough mobility.
What they did wrong was with revamp of ISA, CSA etc
Pumping enemy HP and high enemy hits naturally brought "need" for more DPS.
Bit older missions like Viscous Cycle and Undine Assault are in completely different league.
VCE is solvable without killing 1 enemy ship(and most fast runs are done that way) and just killing planet killers.
while Undine Assault is a very hard mission that requires everything from the team.
Remember now cheap IGE was in s6? cross the invisible line? that's cheapest mechanic used in any video game. KAGE is just needlessly strechted out, and CGE well, yeah it is fun and dynamic until it becomes a speed run.
Nukara missions NTTE and NSDTE are easy but satisfying.
UIE is so boring i almost never do it anymore.
DRSE IMO stands out like a perfectly balanced, fun and dynamic mission on a good old-school type of map.
But, yes. Bringing people to high DPS with tricks like Plasma Doping, gold AP FAW, neutronic Spread, recommending TR-116 as a must have and some other abilities didn't reflect good on quality of gameplay.
Like we are starting to see in many threads; condescension from some players that suddenly came to good DPS and who's understanding of the missions or mechanics is very limited beyond recommended setups for DPS.
Borg Disconected Elite
See, those two missions are done right.
I can completely ALONE clear at least half objectives throughout BDE just by saving ships and not firing 1 shot in a ship that can cloak. 0 DPS.
With 1 players on each side doing same you can do complete mission given how final 3 bosses are optional.
with 2 players on each side without anyone cloaking you can win it.
Further more, 2 players that will engage the enemy so others can save, don't need to push out DPS.
They just need to generate enough threat. With a cpt threat skill, AoE attacks, consoles, Delta Doffs etc.
.
This is an amusing analysis for Pugging this mission advanced. Elite does not pop anymore for pug which is also telling of your analysis. Before I quit playing this abomination there were many times when I freed 12 in the first round and the other 4 players freed 2 = fail.
Second and third round I might free 8 while the others free ZERO.
In some 60 tries at the mission ZERO pug successes - for the #1 featured DR new mission queue.
In most missions if you can carry 50% solo you will win. Not this one. If you can solo rounds 2 and 3 hats off to you.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Comments
So why did you stop pugging after DR...Did it get too hard to pug or did all the fails turn you off?
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Depending on the strength of your team assembled or gambled you can basically set the difficulty for yourself from 100% to 0% and there is nothing easy or difficult about it.
Everybody who thinks of himself to be worthy enough fit into those channels should be able by now to run some sort of risk assessment about every one of those meagre selection of maps.
Do I pug DRE all by myself? Sure thing cuz I know for certain I can conclude 40-60% of that map allone leaving the same amount for FOUR OTHER PLAYERS to do. Sure it can still fail but in my experience the chances are slim thanks to my contribution. And even so fife minutes lost and probably a toonjump in order so what?
Other maps like NTTE I dont pug by myself but rather run it with 2 friends I know I can rely on. Same result. Only if the remaining 2 pugs are a total disaster we end up in a fail but then again not much lost.
Sure if you are a die hard pugger (which I respect very much) and decide to go for a 15 min PvE where only at the end a challenge awaits then you could end up disappointed.
Tell you what? I pug one way or the others on almost a daily basis and Im proud to report that in most cases I rather end up surprised by the pugs more that I am annoyed.
STOs players are getting good and its only a matter of time in my opinion until the average team prevails in pve again. Like mentioned in post #2 the reward/effort ratio on the right maps is dizzing and there for us to be taken before Cryptic in their unbelievable helplessness (sorry guys but you really seem to act that way with your players) cant do anything else but to nerf it again.
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I've been in ANRAs where I clear/free 2 stations and the other 4 puggers can't do a single t'liss by themselves in 3 minutes. It happens. Frequently, actually.
I have been in ISAs that failed because someone went right alone and I'm the only one taking damage on the left because the npcs refuse to attack the other players. Getting over 50% of the damage is a liability sometimes and it doesn't matter if your teammates. have. heals!
I've failed a few Korfez pugs that were going just fine until the 4th phase because everyone attacked the spam instead of the dread and its torps. Sorry, I don't have the 200k dps necessary to take out the dread alone.
You're right about the issue. The overall the fail rate may be more or less where Cryptic wants it, even though dps channel queues are winning nearly 100% of the time and pugs 0% of the time and other private queues somewhere in between.
The only thing Cryptic could do is impose some kind of standard on doing advanced/elite content (pass a test round, get an accolade, something) so that the pugs can catch up to the private queues. Doing so (along with providing basic build/strategy help, or even just links to some great advice already available online) would:
a) let people know that their build/piloting isn't that great (I thought I was pretty good way back in the day when I finished the episode content and was level 50, but oh man did I suck), and
b) inspire people to actually take the time and learn the game's basic mechanics (not necessarily fancy stuff like overcapping or where to get a GDF in a mission, but basic stuff like not running rainbow builds or setting up your weapons so that they can all fire without your ship doing 180's all the time).
The only reason so many people are "hiding" in those dps channels is because Cryptic hasn't/probably won't do that so the DPS channels are a way of players imposing a basic standard on one another. Even queues that originate in DPS-10K (really, not that high at all and you can do it with mk 12 exchange gear and/or in any ship or play-style out there) are like night and day compared to pugs because people generally know how to point their ship at something, use boff abilities as frequently as possible, and actually do the mission objectives.
And thats totally OK for me.
I just wanted to point out that word easy related to elite contend is something highly circumstantial.
If somebody seeks a challenge, I just think that making this game harder is not the way to go but trying to carry and teach new players while filling the deserted queue lists could be. There I feel challenged, in the public elite stf and in dps 10.000 channels im subscribed as well, I do not.
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If you need tacs to finish NTTE on time you're doing it wrong, but then you also think that Sci's aren't competitive, so I can't really take that seriously.
Actually I would call a private queue from a channel more premade than pugging a queue, because regardless the odds of you completing the mission from the channels is much better than pugging any day, and honestly, if the players are competent you could run a mission practically with junk and still win. When they actually bother to make the Elites genuinely Elite then things will get interesting.
So... you're one of the top 1% who wants less than 1% to be able to do the content. Claps. Do you really think a couple hundred people can keep the game going?
One of my characters is around the top 1% on the ground. But I pug. Pugging IS the game. It has been for almost 5 years. This is how 95% or more of the playerbase interacts. They have not moved to private queues. That is not the reason the missions are empty. They have simply quit playing them. Which is obviously sooo healthy for the game.
These missions are #$%&@ing fine the way they are. Leave them alone and let NTTE be the speed challenge for those wanting a pug challenge. Go play some supaaa leeeet gamaa game. Stop trying to shut this game down.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I think so as well. In fact in NTTE I favour my engineer. Cool DPS while having at least some shield heals. My Scies sadly stay at home there. They on the other hand remain my first choice on UIE. If the temple quest pops, and no matter how good the team is in defending it, some decent heals on the preacher seem needed. Could be that the Undine pull some psi stuff on him but I dont know. In any case a cool map for toons or teams in general which are low on dps.
Well it truly is a shame you know. When I popped into Wolf 359 the other day to get my anniversary TRIBBLE going the instance was FULL of players hovering within the derbies field playing this ridiculous omega game.
Kk those thingies do some good on mk2 gear and wheeee need no dil when applied but sorry I rather get my salvage in pve right along with the Dil to apply it instead of doing this mindless activity like a Zombie for hours.
The in game population seems huge on occasion yet the queue list remains empty. The more I think of it the more Im afraid that cryptic simply wants to shift the game away from team play and especially the meeting of likeminded players in pugs into a more solo player oriented game.
Lol sorry for the off topic rant but this whole empty queue and everybody is doing omega grind instead was as close to battery farming as it can get.
Happy 5th anniversary STO.
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Hard to say really how many it's pulling from the queues. When I do my run of elites the longest waiting time is NTTE - can be 10 minutes. I believe you can figure the waiting time by the % chance of failure.
Overall if the chance of failure is too high the mission will slip to a big Zero and seldom pop again. This is THE indication of what the players want. They want to be able to complete the missions.
The outlier being BDA I guess because enough new people come to it as the main new mission.
For me the only important question is what percentages make the game healthy and sustainable.
I believe that is top 10% for elite. And top 50% for advanced. With a >50% success rate in all cases.
We're close to this in many missions. While others (mostly the argonite missions) are not even close - with sub 10% success rates.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
These sounds like solid thoughts but I'd rather also see elite above 50%.
What makes estimates a bit hard in my opinion is the massive abyss in difficulty/successrate between some advanced and elite maps, especially under the reward/effort ratio. And I dont mean elite being harder here at all.
How is (my favourite map) IGA (yea you read correctly) by all means supposed to be filled with DRE as competitor in the same queue list? How can new players even find out what is right for them then?
For the time being Im just happy that some mission at least can be quead for. Taking a friend/fleetmate or two and simply PUG UP has been my live in STO the past 3 years. If this works I can still have fun (and will invest probably millions of fun earned dil in the upgrade system). If not, fin! There is no need to invest RL money for dil or ships when one cant put it to good use in the end. I was obviously under a huge error in judgment when I thought Id buy a full queue list as part of my lifetime sub a few years ago.
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Honestly in the right hands a Sci can be good anywhere, its just a shame so many people have no idea how to play one. The other thing is though, is that I play with some pretty epic people and we're a little too good at bouncing off one another to make more efficient progress in the missions. Also prefer health heals over shields, though I do have a shield tank engi that works reasonably well.
On the thread topic though, we do need better Elite modes, this whole thing with the hull increases being the only real change was rather lame. We need more intelligent AI, unique non-time based optionals (plenty of them too) and also I'd like to see space and ground combined as part of the Elite level so that they are a real test and not what we have now which is a DPS fest and not much else.
Oh true.
Well a bit of variety is there like freeing hostages or doing interviews but it all remains very rudimentary. As far as higher difficulty is concerned current PvE basically only leaves puging or taking new fleet members as option. Of course the line between feeling challenged or feeling annoyed is rather thin.
Im curious what kind of elite stuff we get next. Personally I hope for the classic Borg STF (they once were ground and space combined) or Terradome (which had that as well) but somehow I doubt to see that happen.
PS. If you can give any advise how to strengthen my Scis for NTTE id appreciate it. Mine really seem to lack offensive capabilities there, especially compared to my engineers or tacs.
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Well said, but sadly they wont stop till they will ruin this game so only their lil DPS gang can complete it. Its like talking to the walls. They may be smart and capable, but very egoistic and short sighted ppl.
One thing tho. Its kinda funny that these so called elite players dont go towards PvP. Thats far more challanging then any PvE. Ohh, right... there the enemies think, outsmart you and fight back you:rolleyes:
Ppl do the omega grind (and some others argala) becouse they dont have anything worthy to do. There arent some masochistic timers and fail conditions nor cooldowns for fails to TRIBBLE you up.
The queues's fail conditions and fail cd also makes them a waste of time. You can get only 10 marks and a "bonus" of 1 hour CD for 20-30 mins of gameplay. Yeah... TRIBBLE that.
Ppl that do the omega game are not to blame, but Cryptic and the morrons that cry for harder content becouse they are too afraid to PvP or they suck at it getting their asses kicked and need some DPS numbers to boost their ego.
I agree with everything. I play 99% of my time with a sci too.
@snipey I never mentioned HSE or HGE as easy and needing a boost.
I concur with a new standard for Elite games besides lvl 60. Like Bug Hunt, you got to complete a normal mission first, then win the [advanced] to get to [elite].
That sounds good as a start, beating the advanced at least once before you can play Elite.
And in case some of you have forgotten. Pre-DR elites == After-DR advanced.
It is not absolutely necessary to focus your "puging" in elite games.
And if you think you can win an [Elite] "dungeon" anywhere in any game without a pre-made team and some kind of strategy, YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.
It could be a few things, like having 9 points in skills when you really shouldn't go past 6. If you have the endothermic kit module (as opposed to exothermic) that is pretty decent at dishing out damage alongside hyperonic radiation. 6 points in particle physics will buff those pretty well, and if you have a kit with [Part] on it should make a noticeable improvement again.
What weapons you choose to use probably depends on how often you get to exploit and how far away from you're target you tend to be.
I like how there are still pvp'ers on the forums. It's adorable!
I did PVP once since DR. It took over an hour to get enough people for the arena to pop. When it did it was less PVP and more PVGPU, what with all the new animations. Someone with a Faeht and Surgical Strikes took me out a few times when I couldn't even see them and it was over in like 3 minutes.
I mean, I'm sure whoever had that Faeht had some fun laughing at me. Good for them. But I never signed up for a PVP queue again, and I'm guessing I'm not alone considering how much emptier the PVP queues are compared to the PVE queues. So joke's on them.
I never Said you need Tacs to finish NTTE. I said Tacs are optimal for NTTE. You are Trying to twist what I said.
I see no Sci toons at Top 15 at NTTE.
Again, Why do all playerbase need to do elite content? Are all players spoiled and self entitled like players who whine in the forums? Players can still do normal content.
I dont see your account name at the Top 1%. it is the account name they count not the character name. Because if your claim is true that you are Top 1%, you are dealing 600 DPS for BHE/1,000 DPS+ for NTTE. thats enough to do PuG ground Elite content and succeed most of the time since you can carry the whole PuG groups DPS.
The claim that majority of the queues are PuGs, that has been a fallacy since DR. What holds true 3 years ago isnt true today.
This was nearly 100% possible in the game Star Trek Online as of October 13, 2014.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I am not affiliated with any dps channel or list. I can carry about 50% of most of these missions - such as DRE, BHE. Only about 25% in Nukara for some reason.
3 years?? It's only 3 months.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Not how your original post read, certainly can be taken that way. But thanks a lot for showing all you can comprehend are the DPS numbers, as I assume you are quoting them from the league table on the log reader? You don't win anything but fake ego competitions doing it that way, and also show up how little you know about the game, that DPS, by your logic is ground king?
As I said before, I can't take your previous statement seriously, this one is even worse. You don't have a wider understanding on the potential of how the systems can interact, that's your problem and I have no qualms if you want to stay that way. After all, I sure don't feel spoilt or egoistic knowing how things work, I just enjoy working out the real optimal then seeing how it works in practice. The worst thing to do is let yourself get blinded by a single way of working.
Considering the rest of your post is deluded and elitist rubbish I'll leave it there, I can't take people seriously when they insist on your kind of mindset.
In my recent Redshirt Survival Guide Part 1 and Part 2 i tried to bring closer BHE , DRSE and NTTE to begginers with absolute low cost (1mil EC) and yet efficient gear.
Promptly i have received a PM from a very condescending player from DPS channels how I am only 470 or smtn on NTTE leaderboard and i dare make guides. :roleyes:
I didn't even parse ground missions anyway.
Then i have equipped just bit better gear and lookie there, jumped to 43. spot (now 50)
in NTTE league same day. like it means anything with all the bombardment of concussive tachyon delta t5.
Others have commented how i should put 4mil EC TR-116 in my 1 milEC build, then some more why am i not in constant crouch position. smh
Few days past and i started joining DPS channel 10,30, 50k DRSE, BHE, NTTE, NSDTE runs.
Surprisingly, such teams failed more then Pugs. with all by the book DPS.
That is my experience, one could have different.
But yeah, I will always prefer to pug in ground combat.
In space, well yeah, good dps group will finish the mission more quickly which is my goal to get the stuff i need.
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SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
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Shar, as much as I have real issues with that guide because of the premise it works from, no one has any business saying that people can't make guides just because of some table. I said since before they released that parser that people taking league tables too seriously would lead to ill use of them to bad ends, looks like that's now been proven right
I've made guides to help people as well, other fleet members have contributed with their own material and as a result we've educated a lot of people on how the game works, and properly. There's a lot of people in this game and not enough educational material for it. It doesn't help when a lot of the material is wrong or utterly biased of course but that's another issue entirely.
That Premise you don't like being?
I have just equipped most inexpensive but still efficient stuff i could find, filled holes with adapted maco 2pc and shattering harmonics for NTTE.
It works without ground traits, without expensive LB kits and with a weapon that costs 4250 dil.
Look, I am long time on DPS channels, since 5k 11k and 20k in s7 or 8 i believe, kirks protege, real elite NWS, long time pvper and even longer a pug player and condensceding behaviour is not unusual in any of those groups.
My guide is not "do what i do or else" it's basically a "see what i do wrong/good and go from there"
I pugged and finished every mission in game. i did it also in premade groups, i have almost entire ground gear at my disposal and i could have made a video where i kneel and aim entire time or toss grenades, call orbital strikes, but i would never made such video.
It is not fun for me to play that way. FPS "Aiming" system dynamic is just not fun in STO, and kneeling trait, well fkn lol.
Its the same when someone says that spac tacs must use AP BFAW in PvE and CRF/BO escort in PvP or else low kill ratio/DPS. Same with Scis, engs etc.
There are numerous valid builds and play styles, why limit the horizon to "do this or less DPS"
It is always more fun if you can do it your way, isn't it?
Game is grindy enough, why not take a enormous minigun or whatever you like and just have fun if it worksfor you?
Tell me one good reason.
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SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
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Not my team, remember? ;-)
Sheez. I entered the conversation because someone mentioned Sci toons are best/optimal for NTTE. Which I said are not. Which is a fact. Like I mentioned, Tacs are optimal for NTTE.
DPS is if you want to achieve an optimized state. But you cannot get away with Elite ground missions without anyone doing DPS. because you still have to kill the NPCs.
More likely it is you is hard headed. You just cant finish BHE nor NTTE with everyone parsing 50 DPS. You just cant. Do the math. BHE Spawnomother - 104k HP(with the ability to heal 100k HP) in 5 mins in 30 Secs vs 250 DPS total for the group.
I have adapted to the game. Have you?
Because you asked on space channels. Go to ground DPS channels and since you are parsing 400 DPS ask at DPS-400 for assured ground run quality.
It is the common mistake I see for players complaining that they are not getting ground quality runs on Space channels.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
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Oh thx for that one.
Nothing to be ashamed of really and I think the answer is simple. Even if you have superb skill/build and extraordinary DPS at your disposal, unlike BHE, it needs to be distributed over large areas of the map simultaneously or things just get harder (rifts-->>critters). This just seems to be impossible to be implemented 1 man so you simply rely on 1-2 potent team members at least.
Take DRE. I can clear 2 hostages of that map on my own without breaking into sweat (and if Im undisturbed as in pre-aggrovated Elachi groups). 3 works too depending on my toon. 4 is unlikely but not impossible if I have passive support in form of tac initiative but I see no chance I could free them all.
Well pre dr elite = post dr advanced is simply not true. Even if you have invested hundreds of thousands of dil into your star ship its simply false. But your thread is about elite and so we should spare ourselves that discussion.
I also pointed out that there is even an abyss between advanced and elite which definitely does NOT put elite on a harder scale throughout the bank. Also note that a lot of puggers only can run the elite version of a map because advanced and normal never pop at all.
Your thread is a cool one and seeing that peeps give advice or even links to tutorials is awesome. Nevertheless I dont see any form of mutual agreement between all participants because they are simply all right.
We have 3 groups.
1) Peeps well networked with fellow elite players via channels or fleets: I belong to that group and can confirm that many elite maps are as unchallenging as it can be if they are run in that fashion. I do it that way either for fun with friends or for grinding dil/mats/salvage but not for challange.
2) Experienced players who pug by choice and have their individual reason to do so: I belong to that group as well and when I do I want to be challenged and I am very much at that. When I run a solid risk assessment I often turn out to be successful. Sometimes Im even surprised in a positive way. On some occasions its very annoying though but then again its what I signed up for. Period.
3) Players who are new, not networked, inexperienced or what so ever. They are doomed to play omega game instead of PvE queues and the elite maps, including the rewards they offer, remain inaccessible. Normal or advanced modes are often deserted so no chance for them to see some stages at all.
Personally I doubt that cryptic can come with a satisfactory solution for all. In my opinion enhancing the difficulty even further is NOT the way to go. If players from group 1) get bored I understand that and my suggested workaround seems to do 2). In doing so you encounter a challenge and perhaps the community can be pushed forward to include 3) like they always were before Delta Rising hit us.
And for what its worth I still think cryptic should get rid of a lot of fail criteria. They move from not even be noteworthy in 1) to be unbearable in 3). I dont think they do any good at all. Cryptic could have easily revamped them into considerable additional rewards where the fulfilment or fail of former optional would dicede how much a team gets.
Why our publisher chose to dived the community instead of generating a positive game climate where every player no matter what standing he has could contribute to remains hidden from me and the most massive disappointment of DR in my opinion.
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It's greed, plain and simple. They want to frustrate that third group you mentioned into paying for what they believe are shortcuts that will let them play with the first two groups without getting yelled at.
Apparently, they are no longer content just making money off the people who have the spare cash to spend on the latest shiny when it comes out, or the hardcore PVE/PVPers who grab the shinies they believe they need to remain competitive.
I'm certainly not saying DPS or nothing, goes against what I've already said. I'm saying there's a right and wrong way about doing builds effectively, and behind that is how you go about funding them. Funding ground builds is not expensive if you are willing to learn how to make ec, that should have been the premise because honestly, I've always found that teaching people how to make some ec is the single best thing you can do.
If people want to make a specific type of ground build that is perfectly fine, but it isn't doing anyone a service telling them these builds done properly are expensive, I mean hell some of the best ground builds, DPS or otherwise, are cheap. The right and wrong way to do it is down to how you make that effective, which is most people's stumbling point from my experience over the years.
In short, teach people how to make easy ec and how to get over the effectiveness hurdle, the rest should fall into place in most cases.
Hang on a minute, 50 DPS isn't hard to break, I mean hell 250 DPS isn't difficult on ground, and you can get 300 DPS just with a pre-DR build that's made properly. Post-DR I'm still sorting out an experiment for that, but you seem to have missed the point of my post entirely about how other systems can work together to create better efficiency.
I'm trying to avoid talking about NTTE too much because it is such an easy mission, as is Bug Hunt and DRSE, they aren't a true test of anything so I am trying to be broad. Oh, and your maths only works if you're doing what I call brute force progression, in other words little to no obstacle removal, which is generally the case with mostly Tac teams.
No worries, hope it works for you.
I think the argument in here is just a case in point. My team and myself play this ground content in a way that is highly effective and takes full advantage of the different potentials of the options available to us, which just to add was done from us playing a style we enjoyed.
Pax is used to the DPS route and so will tout that horn until his fingers go numb, as I will my cause because we both find that they're optimal ways of doing things. I think though the real issue with DR was that the way Cryptic attempted to make things more difficult was so lame and cheap that it only exacerbated the differences between different parts of the community like our argument is beginning to show.
I agree with you entirely it is a sad state of affairs. However I feel that unless Cryptic makes more of an effort to make the end-game content something that compels us towards more challenging, fluid content that makes us want to diversify more, I think we can expect this kind of thing to continue, and truthfully that would suck because back in the day the community wasn't as divided as it is now.
I can't agree there. Listen me out.
In space in DR they have introduced Battle of Korfez which is perfectly doable in full PUG.
First 10 times at least i won it that way. You need some high damage SPIKES but mobility and teamwork is more important.
and
Borg Disconected Elite
See, those two missions are done right.
I can completely ALONE clear at least half objectives throughout BDE just by saving ships and not firing 1 shot in a ship that can cloak. 0 DPS.
With 1 players on each side doing same you can do complete mission given how final 3 bosses are optional.
with 2 players on each side without anyone cloaking you can win it.
Further more, 2 players that will engage the enemy so others can save, don't need to push out DPS.
They just need to generate enough threat. With a cpt threat skill, AoE attacks, consoles, Delta Doffs etc.
They can have weapon power on minimum, focused on threat and survival, with minimum DPS and still do their part super effective.
Now ground.
DR introduced Bug Hunt.
It can be a bit chaotic in PUG group until you see what other people strengths are. Can they AoE, are they good in single target takedown, do the debuff, expose, etc.
Perfectly adaptable for any cpt. class with enough mobility.
What they did wrong was with revamp of ISA, CSA etc
Pumping enemy HP and high enemy hits naturally brought "need" for more DPS.
Bit older missions like Viscous Cycle and Undine Assault are in completely different league.
VCE is solvable without killing 1 enemy ship(and most fast runs are done that way) and just killing planet killers.
while Undine Assault is a very hard mission that requires everything from the team.
Remember now cheap IGE was in s6? cross the invisible line? that's cheapest mechanic used in any video game. KAGE is just needlessly strechted out, and CGE well, yeah it is fun and dynamic until it becomes a speed run.
Nukara missions NTTE and NSDTE are easy but satisfying.
UIE is so boring i almost never do it anymore.
DRSE IMO stands out like a perfectly balanced, fun and dynamic mission on a good old-school type of map.
But, yes. Bringing people to high DPS with tricks like Plasma Doping, gold AP FAW, neutronic Spread, recommending TR-116 as a must have and some other abilities didn't reflect good on quality of gameplay.
Like we are starting to see in many threads; condescension from some players that suddenly came to good DPS and who's understanding of the missions or mechanics is very limited beyond recommended setups for DPS.
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This is an amusing analysis for Pugging this mission advanced. Elite does not pop anymore for pug which is also telling of your analysis. Before I quit playing this abomination there were many times when I freed 12 in the first round and the other 4 players freed 2 = fail.
Second and third round I might free 8 while the others free ZERO.
In some 60 tries at the mission ZERO pug successes - for the #1 featured DR new mission queue.
In most missions if you can carry 50% solo you will win. Not this one. If you can solo rounds 2 and 3 hats off to you.
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