people are forming groups in private/public channels or public channels, the populations of those channels are people who have upgraded their gear and think about the combat a little bit
And this right here is the problem.
I don't blame players who go through all the efforts to upgrade their equipment to Mk 14 Epic.
I don't blame players who can dole out 25k+ DPS and make some of the rest of us look like chumps.
I don't mind the players who want more challenge than they are currently getting with their upgraded gear and 25k+ DPS.
I DO blame Cryptic for thinking that since "Queue A" is getting beaten with regularity and very quickly by these types of players, that EVERYONE is at that level so there needs to be an overall nerf.
How many PUG teams succeed at "Queue A"? Maybe 1 or 2 teams a day? And how many of those same PUG teams even attempt "Queue E"? Likely none.
How many pre-made teams go into "Queue A" with other players who not only know what they are doing but are geared to not only defeat that mission, but make it look like a cake walk? Dozens, perhaps hundreds a day? How many of these same types of teams go into "Queue E" and still make it look pretty dang easy? Likely quite a few.
Now, I have absolutely zero proof, but I'm willing to wager that the players who fall into the 25k+ DPS category and steamroll Advanced and regularly beat Elite queues are less than 10% of the game population. Probably less but I can't say for certain.
And since Cryptic is going purely by metrics on this matter, they see that "Queue A" and "Queue E" are being beaten often enough that things need to be made harder and reward less. The less rewarding sucks for everyone, but the "let's make it harder" part makes the power gap between the haves and have nots even larger. Discouraging the have nots from even trying and giving them no incentive to try to get better. With no incentive, there's no reason to stay, which may explain the seeming drop in game population.
This is all just my opinion going on things I hear players talk about in game and what I read on the forums. But to me, there really does seem to be a huge disconnect between the players and the Devs. And despite the comments of "future buffs coming down the road", I'm still skeptical.
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day.
Set a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
To be a tank or a healer you need to sacrifice dps, a lot of dps, you'll be using universal slots for engineering and science boffs instead of tactical, and your offensive science and engineering abilities for healing and defense, you'll be using engineering and science consoles to boost heals and defense instead of using universal consoles to boost dps.
You only need the threat control skill or a single threat scaling console to keep aggro.
With 10k dps you are not killing the 3 dreadnoughts in borg disconnected in 3 minutes.
With 10k dps you won't kill the assimilated birds of prey before they reach kang nor will you finish the mission in 9 minutes, you'll definitely not finish crystalline catastrophe in 5 minutes.
Face it, roles are dead, there is nothing a tank can do that cannot be solved with enough dps, it just doesn't make sense to have a tank when you can have one guy killing enemies fast enough so they are don't even scratch your shields, why heal when you can kill? dead enemies don't hurt you, so there is no need for healing.
Yes, you need to sacrifice some DPS to tank or heal, just like a high DPSer will give be more fragile. But you still can make reasonable damage as a healer or tank. And my issue are not the players that fill the roles of tank or healers properly, it is the many players that claim to fill a role but neither are tanking/doing damage/healing. The problem i see right now way to often in PUGS is that high DPS players also end up taking by far the most damage and have to keep themself alive. I also highly doubt there are many players out there that complain about a good healer, tank or controller.
Haven't played BDA/BDE a lot but don't you still get your marks/mats/dil package even if you fail to kill the dreads? I think you only lose some marks, that's it.
Who tries to stop the bops in CSA in the first place? You take care of the shipyards first, then you kill the ships. And 5 players with 10k dps each can do that easily.
And in what world do you have to do CCA in 5 minutes or less? And considering most high DPSers are using beams and you can kill the entity with torpedos and a grav well just as fast if not faster, that mission is a terrible example.
And show me one MMO in which more damage does not equal faster completion time of the mission.
Gear is really a small part.....it isn't hard to get blue XIs, a friend of mine broke 10k with them. but its also tactics. A defiant deciding to cut engines and sit the firing at a cube is suicidal, but I see it everyday. No need to be rude about it. I am not being rude or elitist im being honest. You don't need all that special gear to win you need common sense. And a torp build on a ship that turns slower then a 90 year old in a wheelchair doesn't work.
But don't you see the problem with line of thinking? That to succeed only certain builds and playstyles are acceptable. Well what if I like playing a torpedo boat cruiser? Why should what I like to play not be a viable choice? I've frequently done Borg Disconnected normal in T6 sci ships with either a sci or engin captain, and it's excruciating. You simply cannot do enough damage to kill things in a reasonable amount of time that allows you to also save the freed borg, which is an essential task if you want to get more than 20 marks for a ton of work. But when I play this with my tac in a T6 raptor I don't have these problems.
You're only confirming what others have already complained about -- that DPS builds are king, and if you're not, then GTFO, this game is not for you.
And if you don't need special gear, why was that the first thing you complained about in your original post ("white rainbow builds")? My main character is a tac who has, just for fun, outfitted a fleet Avenger with rainbow colored beams (named the "Rainbow Avenger" of course). Why should that be any less viable a ship to play in an advanced queue if that's the ship I enjoy flying? The answer: it shouldn't. But it is, and that's part of the problem. Previous to DR you could do normal with virtually any ship, with any gear, no chance of failure, get a decent amount of marks as well as an elite mark. it worked, and it worked well. Now even normal is a chore unless you have a DPS-centric ship, the rewards are not worth the time invested, and you don't even get the elite mark anymore. It's literally not worth the time or energy to do. So again, the fact you are surprised that those who used to do normal are now doing advanced in the same ships -- the ships they enjoy playing -- and do not grasp the catch-22, STILL baffles me.
You want players to have decent gear when they do advanced or elite, but we have to do at least advanced to get decent gear. With less than 50 marks for a normal STF with a 1 hour timer, cap of 8,000 dilithium a day, and the inability to get the required elite marks on normal and you don't understand why people who shouldn't be doing advanced are doing them anyway? Your inability to grasp the catch-22 is baffling.
Obligatory "You don't need queues, just the patience to wait out the heat death of the universe to get all your APCs from the rep boxes." response.
Stop being so selfish by expecting to get anything within this lifetime.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I don't blame players who go through all the efforts to upgrade their equipment to Mk 14 Epic.
I don't blame players who can dole out 25k+ DPS and make some of the rest of us look like chumps.
I don't mind the players who want more challenge than they are currently getting with their upgraded gear and 25k+ DPS.
I DO blame Cryptic for thinking that since "Queue A" is getting beaten with regularity and very quickly by these types of players, that EVERYONE is at that level so there needs to be an overall nerf.
How many PUG teams succeed at "Queue A"? Maybe 1 or 2 teams a day? And how many of those same PUG teams even attempt "Queue E"? Likely none.
How many pre-made teams go into "Queue A" with other players who not only know what they are doing but are geared to not only defeat that mission, but make it look like a cake walk? Dozens, perhaps hundreds a day? How many of these same types of teams go into "Queue E" and still make it look pretty dang easy? Likely quite a few.
Now, I have absolutely zero proof, but I'm willing to wager that the players who fall into the 25k+ DPS category and steamroll Advanced and regularly beat Elite queues are less than 10% of the game population. Probably less but I can't say for certain.
And since Cryptic is going purely by metrics on this matter, they see that "Queue A" and "Queue E" are being beaten often enough that things need to be made harder and reward less. The less rewarding sucks for everyone, but the "let's make it harder" part makes the power gap between the haves and have nots even larger. Discouraging the have nots from even trying and giving them no incentive to try to get better. With no incentive, there's no reason to stay, which may explain the seeming drop in game population.
This is all just my opinion going on things I hear players talk about in game and what I read on the forums. But to me, there really does seem to be a huge disconnect between the players and the Devs. And despite the comments of "future buffs coming down the road", I'm still skeptical.
I'd also go as far as to say that their metrics are telling them that people are congregating to specific STFs... CCA and ISA (prime examples) because the reward to effort ratios are more tolerable. For this reason, they are nerfing the rewards to CCA (already on Tribble) and have announced nerfs to other STFs in groups spread out over the next few months. As popular as ISA is, it won't be long before they decide to TRIBBLE with the rewards and win-conditions there as well, and the other "popular" STFs.
What their metrics are not telling them is that the playerbase, in general, is dissatisfied with the state of most of the STFs and simply refuse to play them. All the number crunchers at Cryptic see are the numbers of where the players ARE playing.. not WHY the queues are dead. Maybe if they actually did their jobs and "see" the problems in the real world, and not numbers on some spreadsheet, they would have a more realistic view of the current state of the game.
-AoP- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -AoP- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / -AoP- ProjectPhoenix Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
But don't you see the problem with line of thinking? That to succeed only certain builds and playstyles are acceptable. Well what if I like playing a torpedo boat cruiser? Why should what I like to play not be a viable choice? I've frequently done Borg Disconnected normal in T6 sci ships with either a sci or engin captain, and it's excruciating. You simply cannot do enough damage to kill things in a reasonable amount of time that allows you to also save the freed borg, which is an essential task if you want to get more than 20 marks for a ton of work. But when I play this with my tac in a T6 raptor I don't have these problems.
You're only confirming what others have already complained about -- that DPS builds are king, and if you're not, then GTFO, this game is not for you.
And if you don't need special gear, why was that the first thing you complained about in your original post ("white rainbow builds")? My main character is a tac who has, just for fun, outfitted a fleet Avenger with rainbow colored beams (named the "Rainbow Avenger" of course). Why should that be any less viable a ship to play in an advanced queue if that's the ship I enjoy flying? The answer: it shouldn't. But it is, and that's part of the problem. Previous to DR you could do normal with virtually any ship, with any gear, no chance of failure, get a decent amount of marks as well as an elite mark. it worked, and it worked well. Now even normal is a chore unless you have a DPS-centric ship, the rewards are not worth the time invested, and you don't even get the elite mark anymore. It's literally not worth the time or energy to do. So again, the fact you are surprised that those who used to do normal are now doing advanced in the same ships -- the ships they enjoy playing -- and do not grasp the catch-22, STILL baffles me.
your acting like STO is different then any MMO. If you go to SWTOR or WOW and do end game content in base level gear you are handicapping the whole group.......STO is no different. And the DEVs arnt going to cater to that. They are going on the assumption that ppl are progressing. I am not a cryptic fanboy by any stretch but im not going to bag on them for having a positive view on player progression and I am certainly not going to complain about them changing things. I for one enjoyed the challenge of adapting my builds and tactics to the new difficulties.
But don't you see the problem with line of thinking? That to succeed only certain builds and playstyles are acceptable. Well what if I like playing a torpedo boat cruiser?
There are people doing ridiculous things with torpedo boats.
And if you don't need special gear, why was that the first thing you complained about in your original post ("white rainbow builds")? My main character is a tac who has, just for fun, outfitted a fleet Avenger with rainbow colored beams (named the "Rainbow Avenger" of course). Why should that be any less viable a ship to play in an advanced queue if that's the ship I enjoy flying? The answer: it shouldn't. But it is, and that's part of the problem. Previous to DR you could do normal with virtually any ship, with any gear, no chance of failure, get a decent amount of marks as well as an elite mark. it worked, and it worked well. Now even normal is a chore unless you have a DPS-centric ship, the rewards are not worth the time invested, and you don't even get the elite mark anymore. It's literally not worth the time or energy to do. So again, the fact you are surprised that those who used to do normal are now doing advanced in the same ships -- the ships they enjoy playing -- and do not grasp the catch-22, STILL baffles me.
It baffles me that people still expect Advanced level rewards for Normal level ship building. Who is telling you that you have to play advanced? I have silly amounts of fun playing with odd, low DPS builds, and I have higher DPS builds. Guess which ones I take into Advanced content (you know, the harder stuff)?
And there are people doing high DPS with rainbow builds. If you want to bring something kooky into Advanced content, how bout make it able to do the content first? Just because you aren't getting results doesn't mean it's impossible. I can see average to above-average builds and pilots not liking more difficulty, but whining because you cant slap together any old thing, not work on getting it to an average level, and faceroll content is moronic.
I'm still surprised people can't grasp the concept of difficulty levels.
Since the only way to get decent gear requires many thousands of rep marks, 100s of thousands of dilithium, and up to 2 dozen "elite" marks (like BNPs, only obtainable on advanced or elite) your "help" is literally useless. Knowledge is not the problem. The inability to obtain decent gear in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable amount of available resources is the problem.
You want players to have decent gear when they do advanced or elite, but we have to do at least advanced to get decent gear. With less than 50 marks for a normal STF with a 1 hour timer, cap of 8,000 dilithium a day, and the inability to get the required elite marks on normal and you don't understand why people who shouldn't be doing advanced are doing them anyway? Your inability to grasp the catch-22 is baffling.
First, your rhetoric about how hard it is to get reputation gear items is so hyperbolic it borders on self-parody. The most expensive single items cost 750 marks, 5 "elite" marks (if applicable - Rom and Nukara reps have none), 32,000 dilithium, and IIRC some smattering of expertise and/or EC. That's like 4 days of "work" (insofar as playing a game can ever be called work) per item. Less than two weeks to a full set. Once you figure out how to actually complete the missions, it's really not that hard, and eventually you are simply rolling in marks. Even if you are not able to do advanced missions, the only things that cuts you out of are BNP and Ancient Power Cells, because Voth and Undine elite marks are easy to earn in their respective battlezones. So... yeah, not doing advanced keeps you from getting... like 14 total different items? Something like that?
Still, the "catch", such as it is, is that you have to figure out how to complete the missions. The first, most important thing that you have to internalize is that if you imagine getting rep gear is going to be the thing that bridges the gap for you and lets you finally succeed, you are almost certainly bound for disappointment. The fact is that the "necessary" gear bar is low enough that I have alts using ships with the white quality weapons they came with by default, and I can more than hold my own in CE, ISA, BDA, and Azure Advanced. Now, let me preempt the oh so popular "sandwich logic" retort. What I'm saying is not just that I have a sandwich - I'm saying sandwiches are so plentiful that the only reason anyone would ever go hungry is because of a stubborn refusal to bend down and pick one up.
What do I mean by that? Well, let's look at the retorts that happen after someone points out that build quality (power selection) and player skill can enable people to succeed. Inevitably, the argument becomes "I don't want to have to pay to respec into some flavor of the month 'DPS or GTFO' internet build just to progress my character." The problem, of course, is that isn't what the "elitists" are saying - generally speaking, it's not that people need to run the "one true build" to succeed, it's that they need to be willing to put a little bit of effort into thinking about what they actually want to do, and then learn how to do that thing.
If you want to be a tank, okay, that's fine - it might even be REALLY awesome for some missions, like BDA, where being able to pick up aggro and hold it can make you a valuable partner for someone who can do all the rescuing. But if that's what you want to do, you have to actually be willing to learn how to do it. Tanking doesn't mean "bringing a cruiser" - it doesn't even mean "bring a cruiser with a bunch of heals". It means "Think about the powers you select, and how they further the goal of tanking, and how you can support those powers with your gear, skill, and spec selections. Then think about how you can adapt your play-style to account for different situations, and train yourself to become aware of the situation around you so you can adjust accordingly.
Now, you might look at that and say that sounds like it isn't any fun - that I'm advocating making the game "work", and you don't want to have to do all that to "succeed". That's fine - you can totally have fun in the game without doing those things - you just shouldn't assume that you can be an "advanced" or "elite" player without putting effort into your personal skills as a player.
Ultimately, I get why people feel like they "need" the end game gear - I really do. For many people, the only "progress" they perceive is in gear - they don't know what other long term goals they could even really have for a character at max level. My suggestion is simply to look inwards for some of that progression - it might be harder to measure "being better at awareness", but it's probably much more important in terms of success.
It baffles me that people still expect Advanced level rewards for Normal level ship building. Who is telling you that you have to play advanced? I have silly amounts of fun playing with odd, low DPS builds, and I have higher DPS builds. Guess which ones I take into Advanced content (you know, the harder stuff)?
And there are people doing high DPS with rainbow builds. If you want to bring something kooky into Advanced content, how bout make it able to do the content first? Just because you aren't getting results doesn't mean it's impossible. I can see average to above-average builds and pilots not liking more difficulty, but whining because you cant slap together any old thing, not work on getting it to an average level, and faceroll content is moronic.
I'm still surprised people can't grasp the concept of difficulty levels.
Since they removed elite marks (things like Borg Neural Processors) from normal the only way to get them is to do advanced or elite. So if someone wants better gear to do advanced they need rep gear, and to get rep gear they need elite marks, and the only way to get elite marks is to do advanced STFs. Understand the problem?
When normal gave out elite marks this wasn't a problem, and your point would be valid. Since they don't, it isn't.
your acting like STO is different then any MMO. If you go to SWTOR or WOW and do end game content in base level gear you are handicapping the whole group.......STO is no different. And the DEVs arnt going to cater to that. They are going on the assumption that ppl are progressing. I am not a cryptic fanboy by any stretch but im not going to bag on them for having a positive view on player progression and I am certainly not going to complain about them changing things. I for one enjoyed the challenge of adapting my builds and tactics to the new difficulties.
The difference is that in those MMOs you don't have to already have advanced gear to earn advanced gear. Tell me, if my ship has normal gear and I want rep gear, how exactly do I get it without doing advanced STFs? You MUST do advanced, normal is no longer an option since it no longer rewards elite marks. I've said this like 3 times now, are you really that dense you keep missing this most salient point?
Since they removed elite marks (things like Borg Neural Processors) from normal the only way to get them is to do advanced or elite. So if someone wants better gear to do advanced they need rep gear, and to get rep gear they need elite marks, and the only way to get elite marks is to do advanced STFs. Understand the problem?
When normal gave out elite marks this wasn't a problem, and your point would be valid. Since they don't, it isn't.
Agreed.
I think I have a half decent set up (not done a DPS test, but I've got all XII's the majority purple) but I don't want to join Advanced because of all the moaning on the forum about 'scrubs' so I'm waiting to get enough BNP's, thing is, I've been doing the Omega rep at least twice a day (20 hour and one hour) every single day for nearly 2 months and I only have 3 of them. My friend (who plays exactly when I do, we do exactly the same stuff etc) has only 5 BNP's.
I'm actually considering joining Adv just to get 2 more (even though I might not do enough DPS )
The difference is that in those MMOs you don't have to already have advanced gear to earn advanced gear. Tell me, if my ship has normal gear and I want rep gear, how exactly do I get it without doing advanced STFs? You MUST do advanced, normal is no longer an option since it no longer rewards elite marks. I've said this like 3 times now, are you really that dense you keep missing this most salient point?
You do advanced with normal gear. Easy.
You get the rep gear from Romulan, Nukara, Undine, and Voth rep lines first, since those either don't need elite marks or give them out like candy in a battlezone. Easy.
There was never a time, ever, when you could easily or reliably get rep gear from Normal difficulty. If you believe there was, you are misremembering. The clue is in the name "elite mark" - guess which difficulty gave those out by default?
Since they removed elite marks (things like Borg Neural Processors) from normal the only way to get them is to do advanced or elite. So if someone wants better gear to do advanced they need rep gear, and to get rep gear they need elite marks, and the only way to get elite marks is to do advanced STFs. Understand the problem?
When normal gave out elite marks this wasn't a problem, and your point would be valid. Since they don't, it isn't.
False. They also drop from Reputation boxes. And there are only 2 that I can think of otherwise "needing" Advanced STF participation- Borg and Delta.
So, I suppose, IF you were only getting rep gear from those two reps, and IF you absolutely have to have it now, then, I guess?
There is other rep gear besides Borg and Delta. And, even if those are the only rep items you're getting, you can still get them (BNP&apc) from random rep drops. They just may or may not be few and far between. "Inconvenient" is not the same as "impossible."
To say that one must do Advanced content to get rep gear is plainly false.
First, your rhetoric about how hard it is to get reputation gear items is so hyperbolic it borders on self-parody. The most expensive single items cost 750 marks, 5 "elite" marks (if applicable - Rom and Nukara reps have none), 32,000 dilithium, and IIRC some smattering of expertise and/or EC.
Untrue. Omega gear is either 900 or 1000 marks and 34K dilithium for each piece. If you want the entire MACO ship set that's 3000 marks, 102k dil, and 15 BNPs. That requires 15 successful advanced or elite runs of one of the Omega STFs and 13 days of farming 8K of dil per day. Assuming an average of 125 marks per run (on advanced or elite -- on normal it's more like 85 for your first run of the day), you'd need a total of 24 STF runs to get the required 3000 marks.
That's like 4 days of "work" (insofar as playing a game can ever be called work) per item. Less than two weeks to a full set. Once you figure out how to actually complete the missions, it's really not that hard, and eventually you are simply rolling in marks. Even if you are not able to do advanced missions, the only things that cuts you out of are BNP and Ancient Power Cells, because Voth and Undine elite marks are easy to earn in their respective battlezones. So... yeah, not doing advanced keeps you from getting... like 14 total different items? Something like that?
So two weeks of work (unless you find grinding out 8K of dil every day for 13 days "fun" along with doing the same STFs 24 times). And what makes you think a "normal" ship can do battlezone content? Sure, you won't fail. But you'll die. A lot. Cause that's fun. And what if you don't want the Voth, Undine, Romulan, or Nukara sets? Tough sh*t? You'll get what we allow you to have and you'll like it? Sorry, but no. And Heaven forbid you have alts. Then you have the pleasure of doing it all over again for each of them. What fun!
Still, the "catch", such as it is, is that you have to figure out how to complete the missions. The first, most important thing that you have to internalize is that if you imagine getting rep gear is going to be the thing that bridges the gap for you and lets you finally succeed, you are almost certainly bound for disappointment. The fact is that the "necessary" gear bar is low enough that I have alts using ships with the white quality weapons they came with by default, and I can more than hold my own in CE, ISA, BDA, and Azure Advanced. Now, let me preempt the oh so popular "sandwich logic" retort. What I'm saying is not just that I have a sandwich - I'm saying sandwiches are so plentiful that the only reason anyone would ever go hungry is because of a stubborn refusal to bend down and pick one up.
What do I mean by that? Well, let's look at the retorts that happen after someone points out that build quality (power selection) and player skill can enable people to succeed. Inevitably, the argument becomes "I don't want to have to pay to respec into some flavor of the month 'DPS or GTFO' internet build just to progress my character." The problem, of course, is that isn't what the "elitists" are saying - generally speaking, it's not that people need to run the "one true build" to succeed, it's that they need to be willing to put a little bit of effort into thinking about what they actually want to do, and then learn how to do that thing.
If you want to be a tank, okay, that's fine - it might even be REALLY awesome for some missions, like BDA, where being able to pick up aggro and hold it can make you a valuable partner for someone who can do all the rescuing. But if that's what you want to do, you have to actually be willing to learn how to do it. Tanking doesn't mean "bringing a cruiser" - it doesn't even mean "bring a cruiser with a bunch of heals". It means "Think about the powers you select, and how they further the goal of tanking, and how you can support those powers with your gear, skill, and spec selections. Then think about how you can adapt your play-style to account for different situations, and train yourself to become aware of the situation around you so you can adjust accordingly.
Now, you might look at that and say that sounds like it isn't any fun - that I'm advocating making the game "work", and you don't want to have to do all that to "succeed". That's fine - you can totally have fun in the game without doing those things - you just shouldn't assume that you can be an "advanced" or "elite" player without putting effort into your personal skills as a player.
Ultimately, I get why people feel like they "need" the end game gear - I really do. For many people, the only "progress" they perceive is in gear - they don't know what other long term goals they could even really have for a character at max level. My suggestion is simply to look inwards for some of that progression - it might be harder to measure "being better at awareness", but it's probably much more important in terms of success.
And the rest of this rant is just psycho babble for which I simply do not have the will to write a retort. Clearly you missed the part about how the difficulty of the game skyrocketed after DR was released and that there is a whole swath of content that is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, unless you're well-geared.
But I know, not everyone can be as skilled as you are, taking on advanced challenges with white gear and all. Think of the lesser people, don't they deserve to have fun too?
The difference is that in those MMOs you don't have to already have advanced gear to earn advanced gear. Tell me, if my ship has normal gear and I want rep gear, how exactly do I get it without doing advanced STFs? You MUST do advanced, normal is no longer an option since it no longer rewards elite marks. I've said this like 3 times now, are you really that dense you keep missing this most salient point?
Are you not in a fleet? Do you not have friends? I only have 1 toon that is a high DPSer all my others are not level 60 run XI blue or green gear and have no p....yet they do advanced. I team with fleetmates and have fun. if your fleet isn't like that find me at @christianmac. We arnt shy and like having fun.
The difference is that in those MMOs you don't have to already have advanced gear to earn advanced gear. Tell me, if my ship has normal gear and I want rep gear, how exactly do I get it without doing advanced STFs? You MUST do advanced, normal is no longer an option since it no longer rewards elite marks. I've said this like 3 times now, are you really that dense you keep missing this most salient point?
What you and many others fail to understand, is that you do not need rep gear to play advanced. Better gear will not magically make you a lot better. Proper use of your captain and boff abilities will do that. Putting together a solid ship build will do that (blue mk11/12 stuff is enough to start doing advanced). Understanding and properly managing your ships power systems will do that. Improving your piloting skills will do that (how to fly and position your ship in combat). A bad captain won't become suddenly good just with better gear.
What you and many others fail to understand, is that you do not need rep gear to play advanced. Better gear will not magically make you a lot better. Proper use of your captain and boff abilities will do that. Putting together a solid ship build will do that (blue mk11/12 stuff is enough to start doing advanced). Understanding and properly managing your ships power systems will do that. Improving your piloting skills will do that (how to fly and position your ship in combat). A bad captain won't become suddenly good just with better gear.
Thank you very much for improving on my point. gear isn't everything.....you could have a brand new sports car but if your a crappy driver your still going to suck.
What you and many others fail to understand, is that you do not need rep gear to play advanced. Better gear will not magically make you a lot better. Proper use of your captain and boff abilities will do that. Putting together a solid ship build will do that (blue mk11/12 stuff is enough to start doing advanced). Understanding and properly managing your ships power systems will do that. Improving your piloting skills will do that (how to fly and position your ship in combat). A bad captain won't become suddenly good just with better gear.
I never said it did. I replied to someone who complained about seeing under-geared and clueless people in advanced queues. I pointed out that if one wants better gear, like rep gear, one must do advanced STFs because they are the only ones that award elite marks, so one shouldn't be surprised to find under-geared and clueless people in there because doing normal is a total waste of time.
Are you suggesting that people literally waste their time learning to do an STF on normal before moving on to advanced? Interesting notion, but it's simply not going to happen. PUGs have always been a roll of the dice, and always will be. And being in a fleet or having friends is only useful when there are a sufficient quantity of people online at the same time who all want to do what you do. Otherwise it's pointless.
Ill tell you this. The day delta rising came out me and some fleeties tried ISA.....and sucked miserably after trying to do it the way de used to do elites. After talking and trying things out we started beating it and never looked back.....that's right...we beat it with unupgraded builds and tier 5 unupgraded ships....it just took determination and a bit of teamwork. The issues with pugging is the lack of communication and the need for people to be kirks. the key to advanced isn't gear and rep. Its the ability of the team to communicate and work together. How do you think many ppl are breaking 10k? or why the dps channels and the elite STF channels are busy? Its because it easier to get a group that communicates in those channels. If cryptic should do anything its to make interteam communication more effective.
I never said it did. I replied to someone who complained about seeing under-geared and clueless people in advanced queues. I pointed out that if one wants better gear, like rep gear, one must do advanced STFs because they are the only ones that award elite marks, so one shouldn't be surprised to find under-geared and clueless people in there because doing normal is a total waste of time.
Bingo! No matter how much some people would like to keep what they appear to perceive as the unwashed masses out of Advanced, the reward structure requires that you in fact attempt to throw yourself in at the deep end to get what you need to get said rep gear. With some reps, of course, this is more of an issue than others. Nowhere is it worst than Omega, with Delta running a close second.
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I never said it did. I replied to someone who complained about seeing under-geared and clueless people in advanced queues. I pointed out that if one wants better gear, like rep gear, one must do advanced STFs because they are the only ones that award elite marks, so one shouldn't be surprised to find under-geared and clueless people in there because doing normal is a total waste of time.
It's not the only way to get the Elite Marks, though. Sure, the RNG stuff isn't recommended by any means and player luck will vary greatly - but with the Daily Bonus providing enough to do both the Daily and an Hourly along the way to T5...who knows? Still not recommended by any means, mind you. But then there is also still the Dyson and Undine Elite Marks being available from mob play - hit up a battlezone, run around with a bunch of other folks, and yay - Elite Marks. Which basically leaves the BNPs and APCs...but what's needed there, eh? What gearing are folks trying to grab from that? And even so, why are they hitting it up before having grabbed the stuff that would basically make them overgeared to do the content anyway from just missions and random loot droops, eh? Or maybe they've noticed some of the folks out there running 2pc Nukara, Rom Engines, and a Spire Core, eh? No Elite Marks required...hrmmm. But Hell, it's not like there aren't mission sets they could be running along the way too...
Normal being a waste of time doesn't mean that the folks hitting up Advanced in the way they are...actually have any sort of clue. If they did, they wouldn't be hitting them up that way...Hell, they'd likely not be running them at all.
But I know, not everyone can be as skilled as you are, taking on advanced challenges with white gear and all. Think of the lesser people, don't they deserve to have fun too?
Actually, everyone CAN be as skilled as I am, it's just that some people lack even the skills necessary to understand that they are not currently competent, so they mistake their repeated failures for a problem with the system or other external factors, and get increasingly frustrated as they attempt to negotiate through the cognitive dissonance of "I'm a competent player" and "I keep failing". The painful truth is that people who struggle to do things like participate meaningfully in the battlezones simply aren't good at the game. Full stop. Those players will never succeed until they are willing to accept that they need to learn.
As for your end, of course even those people deserve to have fun - they just don't deserve to to get the rewards for advanced players, since, you know, they aren't. If you are saying that the only way for you to have fun is to get the big-boy rewards, but you can't hack that content, that's what we in education call a "teachable moment".
Thank you very much for improving on my point. gear isn't everything.....you could have a brand new sports car but if your a crappy driver your still going to suck.
I never said it did. I replied to someone who complained about seeing under-geared and clueless people in advanced queues. I pointed out that if one wants better gear, like rep gear, one must do advanced STFs because they are the only ones that award elite marks, so one shouldn't be surprised to find under-geared and clueless people in there because doing normal is a total waste of time.
Are you suggesting that people literally waste their time learning to do an STF on normal before moving on to advanced? Interesting notion, but it's simply not going to happen. PUGs have always been a role of the dice, and always will be. And being in a fleet or having friends is only useful when there are a sufficient quantity of people online at the same time who all want to do what you do. Otherwise it's pointless.
I wasn't complaining about TRIBBLE gear im talking about people with white gear who don't follow the team or think that FAW is the answer to everything or go screaming in team chat because im not following his kirkness especially when that dissolves into him attacking the gate instead of following the team. the gear doesn't mean squat. Its the people who think that they waltz into an advance and treat it like its normal. Or come in here and grip about how its so unfair that advanced is hard when ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. Ask questions, learn what works and you will overcome.
Ill tell you this. The day delta rising came out me and some fleeties tried ISA.....and sucked miserably after trying to do it the way de used to do elites. After talking and trying things out we started beating it and never looked back.....that's right...we beat it with unupgraded builds and tier 5 unupgraded ships....it just took determination and a bit of teamwork. The issues with pugging is the lack of communication and the need for people to be kirks. the key to advanced isn't gear and rep. Its the ability of the team to communicate and work together. How do you think many ppl are breaking 10k? or why the dps channels and the elite STF channels are busy? Its because it easier to get a group that communicates in those channels. If cryptic should do anything its to make interteam communication more effective.
Or, y'know, put normal back at the previous normal level of difficulty and go back to giving out elite marks. Nah, cause that would be too easy. Let's instead make people suffer thru repeated failed attempts with 1 hour lockouts and hope they can find PUGs who know how to communicate. Clearly the latter is the better option. Not.
I wasn't complaining about TRIBBLE gear im talking about people with white gear who don't follow the team or think that FAW is the answer to everything or go screaming in team chat because im not following his kirkness especially when that dissolves into him attacking the gate instead of following the team. the gear doesn't mean squat. Its the people who think that they waltz into an advance and treat it like its normal. Or come in here and grip about how its so unfair that advanced is hard when ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. Ask questions, learn what works and you will overcome.
And yet, after saying it like 6 times now you still seem miss the point that PEOPLE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE SINCE ELITE MARKS CANNOT BE OBTAINED BY DOING NORMAL.
No one is complaining about advanced being difficult. People are complaining that they are forced to do it instead of normal because it's the only way to get elite marks. And since so many people are not geared or skilled enough for the advanced difficulty it results in an extremely high level of failure for everyone.
In a perfect world every unskilled player would say "Golly Mr. Christianmac, I see that you're such a talented and highly-skilled player, almost God-like in your ability to deftly deal with what I find to be incredibly difficult and you seem to handle with ease, even with your white gear and crappy T4 ship. Gee Mr. Christianmac, can you teach me so I too can be a God amongst mere mortals?"
But I think you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
No one is complaining about advanced being difficult. People are complaining that they are forced to do it instead of normal because it's the only way to get elite marks. And since so many people are not geared or skilled enough for the advanced difficulty it results in an extremely high level of failure for everyone.
What if instead of just com-whining-plaining about things, if they were to say hit up the forums to ask for help?
"Hey, there is this gear that I want that requires BNPs (or maybe APCs); and I have TRIBBLE luck with those stupid RNG boxes. So I'm going to need to hit up some Advanced queues to get those Elite Marks. Is there any advice on ways that I can improve my build so maybe I don't come off as completely clueless or a leech? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!"
Nah, much easier to whine, make excuses, and leech...
edit: Case it wasn't clear, hope you realize that I'm not attacking you with any of that...
And yet, after saying it like 6 times now you still seem miss the point that PEOPLE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE SINCE ELITE MARKS CANNOT BE OBTAINED BY DOING NORMAL.
No one is complaining about advanced being difficult. People are complaining that they are forced to do it instead of normal because it's the only way to get elite marks. And since so many people are not geared or skilled enough for the advanced difficulty it results in an extremely high level of failure for everyone.
In a perfect world every unskilled player would say "Golly Mr. Christianmac, I see that you're such a talented and highly-skilled player, almost God-like in your ability to deftly deal with what I find to be incredibly difficult and you seem to handle with ease, even with your white gear and crappy T4 ship. Gee Mr. Christianmac, can you teach me so I too can be a God amongst mere mortals?"
But I think you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
So your going to mock my sincere attempt to help? have fun with that. I didn't even go for the elite marks till I hit tier five on undine and delta, by then I had enough rep weapons to outfit 2 ships. But if you want to be meanspirited and attempt to flame me go ahead. and if people want to pug then they can, but I don't see the sense in doing advance queues when you can get marks for projects in normal queues and the projects give boxes that have a good chance to drop weapons that normally cost dilithium. but hey im going to continue to be nice and tell you and anyone else reading this to look me up and ill run with you whenever im online with no judgement, no discrimination and no preconceptions. Cause that is what my fleet and our allied fleets are all about, helping people and faving fun.
What if instead of just com-whining-plaining about things, if they were to say hit up the forums to ask for help?
"Hey, there is this gear that I want that requires BNPs (or maybe APCs); and I have TRIBBLE luck with those stupid RNG boxes. So I'm going to need to hit up some Advanced queues to get those Elite Marks. Is there any advice on ways that I can improve my build so maybe I don't come off as completely clueless or a leech? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!"
Nah, much easier to whine, make excuses, and leech...
edit: Case it wasn't clear, hope you realize that I'm not attacking you with any of that...
Because it would be an long, drawn out series of posts spanning multiple days starting with "are you tac, sci, or engin?" and followed by, "and what ship are you flying", and then "oh you need a better ship -- just convert some dil or drop some cash on Zen and buy one. I know you want to use beams, but you should really use cannons because you're doing it all wrong otherwise. And well you need these cannons, and this set, and these skills" that would require you to completely revamp your character into something you don't want nor find fun to play, with skills and gear you'd only use for STFs and nothing else that you have neither the dil, EC, money or desire to grind for.
And when you say "yeah, that's all a bit too much, I just want to hop in as-is and get it done" you get the following (or similar) response:
Actually, everyone CAN be as skilled as I am, it's just that some people lack even the skills necessary to understand that they are not currently competent, so they mistake their repeated failures for a problem with the system or other external factors, and get increasingly frustrated as they attempt to negotiate through the cognitive dissonance of "I'm a competent player" and "I keep failing". The painful truth is that people who struggle to do things like participate meaningfully in the battlezones simply aren't good at the game. Full stop. Those players will never succeed until they are willing to accept that they need to learn.
As for your end, of course even those people deserve to have fun - they just don't deserve to to get the rewards for advanced players, since, you know, they aren't. If you are saying that the only way for you to have fun is to get the big-boy rewards, but you can't hack that content, that's what we in education call a "teachable moment".
Which is why no one asks for such help in the forums. You're just setting yourself up to get demeaned and ridiculed.
Because it would be an long, drawn out series of posts spanning multiple days starting with "are you tac, sci, or engin?" and followed by, "and what ship are you flying", and then "oh you need a better ship -- just convert some dil or drop some cash on Zen and buy one. I know you want to use beams, but you should really use cannons because you're doing it all wrong otherwise. And well you need these cannons, and this set, and these skills" that would require you to completely revamp your character into something you don't want nor find fun to play, with skills and gear you'd only use for STFs and nothing else that you have neither the dil, EC, money or desire to grind for.
So you include in your post that you want to stick to certain things, and while you appreciate that some things might be better overall for some folks to fly with; you're really looking to get the most out of what you enjoy without being deadweight to the team - cause you know you're choosing to join a team so it is no longer just about you.
Actually, everyone CAN be as skilled as I am, it's just that some people lack even the skills necessary to understand that they are not currently competent, so they mistake their repeated failures for a problem with the system or other external factors, and get increasingly frustrated as they attempt to negotiate through the cognitive dissonance of "I'm a competent player" and "I keep failing". The painful truth is that people who struggle to do things like participate meaningfully in the battlezones simply aren't good at the game. Full stop. Those players will never succeed until they are willing to accept that they need to learn.
As for your end, of course even those people deserve to have fun - they just don't deserve to to get the rewards for advanced players, since, you know, they aren't. If you are saying that the only way for you to have fun is to get the big-boy rewards, but you can't hack that content, that's what we in education call a "teachable moment".
Which is why no one asks for such help in the forums. You're just setting yourself up to get demeaned and ridiculed.
So basically folks have fragile egos and are extremely selfish...?
Cause to me it's basically a case of going into it with some humility in the first place, since you're asking for help...so how can somebody demean you by saying you don't know something when you've gone into it asking for the help because you don't know something?
It's just more and more making excuses. Cause folks do ask for help with stuff and do get help...this can be an extremely helpful community - it can be a very toxic community as folks make excuses.
Comments
And this right here is the problem.
I don't blame players who go through all the efforts to upgrade their equipment to Mk 14 Epic.
I don't blame players who can dole out 25k+ DPS and make some of the rest of us look like chumps.
I don't mind the players who want more challenge than they are currently getting with their upgraded gear and 25k+ DPS.
I DO blame Cryptic for thinking that since "Queue A" is getting beaten with regularity and very quickly by these types of players, that EVERYONE is at that level so there needs to be an overall nerf.
How many PUG teams succeed at "Queue A"? Maybe 1 or 2 teams a day? And how many of those same PUG teams even attempt "Queue E"? Likely none.
How many pre-made teams go into "Queue A" with other players who not only know what they are doing but are geared to not only defeat that mission, but make it look like a cake walk? Dozens, perhaps hundreds a day? How many of these same types of teams go into "Queue E" and still make it look pretty dang easy? Likely quite a few.
Now, I have absolutely zero proof, but I'm willing to wager that the players who fall into the 25k+ DPS category and steamroll Advanced and regularly beat Elite queues are less than 10% of the game population. Probably less but I can't say for certain.
And since Cryptic is going purely by metrics on this matter, they see that "Queue A" and "Queue E" are being beaten often enough that things need to be made harder and reward less. The less rewarding sucks for everyone, but the "let's make it harder" part makes the power gap between the haves and have nots even larger. Discouraging the have nots from even trying and giving them no incentive to try to get better. With no incentive, there's no reason to stay, which may explain the seeming drop in game population.
This is all just my opinion going on things I hear players talk about in game and what I read on the forums. But to me, there really does seem to be a huge disconnect between the players and the Devs. And despite the comments of "future buffs coming down the road", I'm still skeptical.
Set a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Yes, you need to sacrifice some DPS to tank or heal, just like a high DPSer will give be more fragile. But you still can make reasonable damage as a healer or tank. And my issue are not the players that fill the roles of tank or healers properly, it is the many players that claim to fill a role but neither are tanking/doing damage/healing. The problem i see right now way to often in PUGS is that high DPS players also end up taking by far the most damage and have to keep themself alive. I also highly doubt there are many players out there that complain about a good healer, tank or controller.
Haven't played BDA/BDE a lot but don't you still get your marks/mats/dil package even if you fail to kill the dreads? I think you only lose some marks, that's it.
Who tries to stop the bops in CSA in the first place? You take care of the shipyards first, then you kill the ships. And 5 players with 10k dps each can do that easily.
And in what world do you have to do CCA in 5 minutes or less? And considering most high DPSers are using beams and you can kill the entity with torpedos and a grav well just as fast if not faster, that mission is a terrible example.
And show me one MMO in which more damage does not equal faster completion time of the mission.
But don't you see the problem with line of thinking? That to succeed only certain builds and playstyles are acceptable. Well what if I like playing a torpedo boat cruiser? Why should what I like to play not be a viable choice? I've frequently done Borg Disconnected normal in T6 sci ships with either a sci or engin captain, and it's excruciating. You simply cannot do enough damage to kill things in a reasonable amount of time that allows you to also save the freed borg, which is an essential task if you want to get more than 20 marks for a ton of work. But when I play this with my tac in a T6 raptor I don't have these problems.
You're only confirming what others have already complained about -- that DPS builds are king, and if you're not, then GTFO, this game is not for you.
And if you don't need special gear, why was that the first thing you complained about in your original post ("white rainbow builds")? My main character is a tac who has, just for fun, outfitted a fleet Avenger with rainbow colored beams (named the "Rainbow Avenger" of course). Why should that be any less viable a ship to play in an advanced queue if that's the ship I enjoy flying? The answer: it shouldn't. But it is, and that's part of the problem. Previous to DR you could do normal with virtually any ship, with any gear, no chance of failure, get a decent amount of marks as well as an elite mark. it worked, and it worked well. Now even normal is a chore unless you have a DPS-centric ship, the rewards are not worth the time invested, and you don't even get the elite mark anymore. It's literally not worth the time or energy to do. So again, the fact you are surprised that those who used to do normal are now doing advanced in the same ships -- the ships they enjoy playing -- and do not grasp the catch-22, STILL baffles me.
Obligatory "You don't need queues, just the patience to wait out the heat death of the universe to get all your APCs from the rep boxes." response.
Stop being so selfish by expecting to get anything within this lifetime.
I'd also go as far as to say that their metrics are telling them that people are congregating to specific STFs... CCA and ISA (prime examples) because the reward to effort ratios are more tolerable. For this reason, they are nerfing the rewards to CCA (already on Tribble) and have announced nerfs to other STFs in groups spread out over the next few months. As popular as ISA is, it won't be long before they decide to TRIBBLE with the rewards and win-conditions there as well, and the other "popular" STFs.
What their metrics are not telling them is that the playerbase, in general, is dissatisfied with the state of most of the STFs and simply refuse to play them. All the number crunchers at Cryptic see are the numbers of where the players ARE playing.. not WHY the queues are dead. Maybe if they actually did their jobs and "see" the problems in the real world, and not numbers on some spreadsheet, they would have a more realistic view of the current state of the game.
Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
your acting like STO is different then any MMO. If you go to SWTOR or WOW and do end game content in base level gear you are handicapping the whole group.......STO is no different. And the DEVs arnt going to cater to that. They are going on the assumption that ppl are progressing. I am not a cryptic fanboy by any stretch but im not going to bag on them for having a positive view on player progression and I am certainly not going to complain about them changing things. I for one enjoyed the challenge of adapting my builds and tactics to the new difficulties.
There are people doing ridiculous things with torpedo boats.
It baffles me that people still expect Advanced level rewards for Normal level ship building. Who is telling you that you have to play advanced? I have silly amounts of fun playing with odd, low DPS builds, and I have higher DPS builds. Guess which ones I take into Advanced content (you know, the harder stuff)?
And there are people doing high DPS with rainbow builds. If you want to bring something kooky into Advanced content, how bout make it able to do the content first? Just because you aren't getting results doesn't mean it's impossible. I can see average to above-average builds and pilots not liking more difficulty, but whining because you cant slap together any old thing, not work on getting it to an average level, and faceroll content is moronic.
I'm still surprised people can't grasp the concept of difficulty levels.
First, your rhetoric about how hard it is to get reputation gear items is so hyperbolic it borders on self-parody. The most expensive single items cost 750 marks, 5 "elite" marks (if applicable - Rom and Nukara reps have none), 32,000 dilithium, and IIRC some smattering of expertise and/or EC. That's like 4 days of "work" (insofar as playing a game can ever be called work) per item. Less than two weeks to a full set. Once you figure out how to actually complete the missions, it's really not that hard, and eventually you are simply rolling in marks. Even if you are not able to do advanced missions, the only things that cuts you out of are BNP and Ancient Power Cells, because Voth and Undine elite marks are easy to earn in their respective battlezones. So... yeah, not doing advanced keeps you from getting... like 14 total different items? Something like that?
Still, the "catch", such as it is, is that you have to figure out how to complete the missions. The first, most important thing that you have to internalize is that if you imagine getting rep gear is going to be the thing that bridges the gap for you and lets you finally succeed, you are almost certainly bound for disappointment. The fact is that the "necessary" gear bar is low enough that I have alts using ships with the white quality weapons they came with by default, and I can more than hold my own in CE, ISA, BDA, and Azure Advanced. Now, let me preempt the oh so popular "sandwich logic" retort. What I'm saying is not just that I have a sandwich - I'm saying sandwiches are so plentiful that the only reason anyone would ever go hungry is because of a stubborn refusal to bend down and pick one up.
What do I mean by that? Well, let's look at the retorts that happen after someone points out that build quality (power selection) and player skill can enable people to succeed. Inevitably, the argument becomes "I don't want to have to pay to respec into some flavor of the month 'DPS or GTFO' internet build just to progress my character." The problem, of course, is that isn't what the "elitists" are saying - generally speaking, it's not that people need to run the "one true build" to succeed, it's that they need to be willing to put a little bit of effort into thinking about what they actually want to do, and then learn how to do that thing.
If you want to be a tank, okay, that's fine - it might even be REALLY awesome for some missions, like BDA, where being able to pick up aggro and hold it can make you a valuable partner for someone who can do all the rescuing. But if that's what you want to do, you have to actually be willing to learn how to do it. Tanking doesn't mean "bringing a cruiser" - it doesn't even mean "bring a cruiser with a bunch of heals". It means "Think about the powers you select, and how they further the goal of tanking, and how you can support those powers with your gear, skill, and spec selections. Then think about how you can adapt your play-style to account for different situations, and train yourself to become aware of the situation around you so you can adjust accordingly.
Now, you might look at that and say that sounds like it isn't any fun - that I'm advocating making the game "work", and you don't want to have to do all that to "succeed". That's fine - you can totally have fun in the game without doing those things - you just shouldn't assume that you can be an "advanced" or "elite" player without putting effort into your personal skills as a player.
Ultimately, I get why people feel like they "need" the end game gear - I really do. For many people, the only "progress" they perceive is in gear - they don't know what other long term goals they could even really have for a character at max level. My suggestion is simply to look inwards for some of that progression - it might be harder to measure "being better at awareness", but it's probably much more important in terms of success.
Since they removed elite marks (things like Borg Neural Processors) from normal the only way to get them is to do advanced or elite. So if someone wants better gear to do advanced they need rep gear, and to get rep gear they need elite marks, and the only way to get elite marks is to do advanced STFs. Understand the problem?
When normal gave out elite marks this wasn't a problem, and your point would be valid. Since they don't, it isn't.
The difference is that in those MMOs you don't have to already have advanced gear to earn advanced gear. Tell me, if my ship has normal gear and I want rep gear, how exactly do I get it without doing advanced STFs? You MUST do advanced, normal is no longer an option since it no longer rewards elite marks. I've said this like 3 times now, are you really that dense you keep missing this most salient point?
Agreed.
I think I have a half decent set up (not done a DPS test, but I've got all XII's the majority purple) but I don't want to join Advanced because of all the moaning on the forum about 'scrubs' so I'm waiting to get enough BNP's, thing is, I've been doing the Omega rep at least twice a day (20 hour and one hour) every single day for nearly 2 months and I only have 3 of them. My friend (who plays exactly when I do, we do exactly the same stuff etc) has only 5 BNP's.
I'm actually considering joining Adv just to get 2 more (even though I might not do enough DPS
You do advanced with normal gear. Easy.
You get the rep gear from Romulan, Nukara, Undine, and Voth rep lines first, since those either don't need elite marks or give them out like candy in a battlezone. Easy.
There was never a time, ever, when you could easily or reliably get rep gear from Normal difficulty. If you believe there was, you are misremembering. The clue is in the name "elite mark" - guess which difficulty gave those out by default?
False. They also drop from Reputation boxes. And there are only 2 that I can think of otherwise "needing" Advanced STF participation- Borg and Delta.
So, I suppose, IF you were only getting rep gear from those two reps, and IF you absolutely have to have it now, then, I guess?
There is other rep gear besides Borg and Delta. And, even if those are the only rep items you're getting, you can still get them (BNP&apc) from random rep drops. They just may or may not be few and far between. "Inconvenient" is not the same as "impossible."
To say that one must do Advanced content to get rep gear is plainly false.
Untrue. Omega gear is either 900 or 1000 marks and 34K dilithium for each piece. If you want the entire MACO ship set that's 3000 marks, 102k dil, and 15 BNPs. That requires 15 successful advanced or elite runs of one of the Omega STFs and 13 days of farming 8K of dil per day. Assuming an average of 125 marks per run (on advanced or elite -- on normal it's more like 85 for your first run of the day), you'd need a total of 24 STF runs to get the required 3000 marks.
So two weeks of work (unless you find grinding out 8K of dil every day for 13 days "fun" along with doing the same STFs 24 times). And what makes you think a "normal" ship can do battlezone content? Sure, you won't fail. But you'll die. A lot. Cause that's fun. And what if you don't want the Voth, Undine, Romulan, or Nukara sets? Tough sh*t? You'll get what we allow you to have and you'll like it? Sorry, but no. And Heaven forbid you have alts. Then you have the pleasure of doing it all over again for each of them. What fun!
And the rest of this rant is just psycho babble for which I simply do not have the will to write a retort. Clearly you missed the part about how the difficulty of the game skyrocketed after DR was released and that there is a whole swath of content that is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, unless you're well-geared.
But I know, not everyone can be as skilled as you are, taking on advanced challenges with white gear and all. Think of the lesser people, don't they deserve to have fun too?
Are you not in a fleet? Do you not have friends? I only have 1 toon that is a high DPSer all my others are not level 60 run XI blue or green gear and have no p....yet they do advanced. I team with fleetmates and have fun. if your fleet isn't like that find me at @christianmac. We arnt shy and like having fun.
What you and many others fail to understand, is that you do not need rep gear to play advanced. Better gear will not magically make you a lot better. Proper use of your captain and boff abilities will do that. Putting together a solid ship build will do that (blue mk11/12 stuff is enough to start doing advanced). Understanding and properly managing your ships power systems will do that. Improving your piloting skills will do that (how to fly and position your ship in combat). A bad captain won't become suddenly good just with better gear.
Thank you very much for improving on my point. gear isn't everything.....you could have a brand new sports car but if your a crappy driver your still going to suck.
I never said it did. I replied to someone who complained about seeing under-geared and clueless people in advanced queues. I pointed out that if one wants better gear, like rep gear, one must do advanced STFs because they are the only ones that award elite marks, so one shouldn't be surprised to find under-geared and clueless people in there because doing normal is a total waste of time.
Are you suggesting that people literally waste their time learning to do an STF on normal before moving on to advanced? Interesting notion, but it's simply not going to happen. PUGs have always been a roll of the dice, and always will be. And being in a fleet or having friends is only useful when there are a sufficient quantity of people online at the same time who all want to do what you do. Otherwise it's pointless.
Bingo! No matter how much some people would like to keep what they appear to perceive as the unwashed masses out of Advanced, the reward structure requires that you in fact attempt to throw yourself in at the deep end to get what you need to get said rep gear. With some reps, of course, this is more of an issue than others. Nowhere is it worst than Omega, with Delta running a close second.
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It's not the only way to get the Elite Marks, though. Sure, the RNG stuff isn't recommended by any means and player luck will vary greatly - but with the Daily Bonus providing enough to do both the Daily and an Hourly along the way to T5...who knows? Still not recommended by any means, mind you. But then there is also still the Dyson and Undine Elite Marks being available from mob play - hit up a battlezone, run around with a bunch of other folks, and yay - Elite Marks. Which basically leaves the BNPs and APCs...but what's needed there, eh? What gearing are folks trying to grab from that? And even so, why are they hitting it up before having grabbed the stuff that would basically make them overgeared to do the content anyway from just missions and random loot droops, eh? Or maybe they've noticed some of the folks out there running 2pc Nukara, Rom Engines, and a Spire Core, eh? No Elite Marks required...hrmmm. But Hell, it's not like there aren't mission sets they could be running along the way too...
Normal being a waste of time doesn't mean that the folks hitting up Advanced in the way they are...actually have any sort of clue. If they did, they wouldn't be hitting them up that way...Hell, they'd likely not be running them at all.
Actually, everyone CAN be as skilled as I am, it's just that some people lack even the skills necessary to understand that they are not currently competent, so they mistake their repeated failures for a problem with the system or other external factors, and get increasingly frustrated as they attempt to negotiate through the cognitive dissonance of "I'm a competent player" and "I keep failing". The painful truth is that people who struggle to do things like participate meaningfully in the battlezones simply aren't good at the game. Full stop. Those players will never succeed until they are willing to accept that they need to learn.
As for your end, of course even those people deserve to have fun - they just don't deserve to to get the rewards for advanced players, since, you know, they aren't. If you are saying that the only way for you to have fun is to get the big-boy rewards, but you can't hack that content, that's what we in education call a "teachable moment".
I wasn't complaining about TRIBBLE gear im talking about people with white gear who don't follow the team or think that FAW is the answer to everything or go screaming in team chat because im not following his kirkness especially when that dissolves into him attacking the gate instead of following the team. the gear doesn't mean squat. Its the people who think that they waltz into an advance and treat it like its normal. Or come in here and grip about how its so unfair that advanced is hard when ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. Ask questions, learn what works and you will overcome.
Or, y'know, put normal back at the previous normal level of difficulty and go back to giving out elite marks. Nah, cause that would be too easy. Let's instead make people suffer thru repeated failed attempts with 1 hour lockouts and hope they can find PUGs who know how to communicate. Clearly the latter is the better option. Not.
And yet, after saying it like 6 times now you still seem miss the point that PEOPLE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE SINCE ELITE MARKS CANNOT BE OBTAINED BY DOING NORMAL.
No one is complaining about advanced being difficult. People are complaining that they are forced to do it instead of normal because it's the only way to get elite marks. And since so many people are not geared or skilled enough for the advanced difficulty it results in an extremely high level of failure for everyone.
In a perfect world every unskilled player would say "Golly Mr. Christianmac, I see that you're such a talented and highly-skilled player, almost God-like in your ability to deftly deal with what I find to be incredibly difficult and you seem to handle with ease, even with your white gear and crappy T4 ship. Gee Mr. Christianmac, can you teach me so I too can be a God amongst mere mortals?"
But I think you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
What if instead of just com-whining-plaining about things, if they were to say hit up the forums to ask for help?
"Hey, there is this gear that I want that requires BNPs (or maybe APCs); and I have TRIBBLE luck with those stupid RNG boxes. So I'm going to need to hit up some Advanced queues to get those Elite Marks. Is there any advice on ways that I can improve my build so maybe I don't come off as completely clueless or a leech? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!"
Nah, much easier to whine, make excuses, and leech...
edit: Case it wasn't clear, hope you realize that I'm not attacking you with any of that...
So your going to mock my sincere attempt to help? have fun with that. I didn't even go for the elite marks till I hit tier five on undine and delta, by then I had enough rep weapons to outfit 2 ships. But if you want to be meanspirited and attempt to flame me go ahead. and if people want to pug then they can, but I don't see the sense in doing advance queues when you can get marks for projects in normal queues and the projects give boxes that have a good chance to drop weapons that normally cost dilithium. but hey im going to continue to be nice and tell you and anyone else reading this to look me up and ill run with you whenever im online with no judgement, no discrimination and no preconceptions. Cause that is what my fleet and our allied fleets are all about, helping people and faving fun.
Because it would be an long, drawn out series of posts spanning multiple days starting with "are you tac, sci, or engin?" and followed by, "and what ship are you flying", and then "oh you need a better ship -- just convert some dil or drop some cash on Zen and buy one. I know you want to use beams, but you should really use cannons because you're doing it all wrong otherwise. And well you need these cannons, and this set, and these skills" that would require you to completely revamp your character into something you don't want nor find fun to play, with skills and gear you'd only use for STFs and nothing else that you have neither the dil, EC, money or desire to grind for.
And when you say "yeah, that's all a bit too much, I just want to hop in as-is and get it done" you get the following (or similar) response:
Which is why no one asks for such help in the forums. You're just setting yourself up to get demeaned and ridiculed.
So you include in your post that you want to stick to certain things, and while you appreciate that some things might be better overall for some folks to fly with; you're really looking to get the most out of what you enjoy without being deadweight to the team - cause you know you're choosing to join a team so it is no longer just about you.
So basically folks have fragile egos and are extremely selfish...?
Cause to me it's basically a case of going into it with some humility in the first place, since you're asking for help...so how can somebody demean you by saying you don't know something when you've gone into it asking for the help because you don't know something?
It's just more and more making excuses. Cause folks do ask for help with stuff and do get help...this can be an extremely helpful community - it can be a very toxic community as folks make excuses.