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It's official, KDF make substandard ships!

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tilarta wrote: »
    I've been going through the level 55-60 content and as I've been levelling higher, I've noticed something extremely annoying:

    My Starfleet cruiser can fight through the enemies reasonably well.
    But my KDF cruiser, all it seems it can do is explode. Endlessly.

    Since they're using the exact same weapons, sets, consoles, BOFF skills, etc, it's unusual that my Starfleet vessel will shrug off the damage and my KDF ship does not.

    It's actually gotten to the point where I've gone to Kobali Prime to earn my daily Delta Quadrant Rep Marks, because the cruiser just can't survive enemy engagements anymore!

    What factors are making the difference here? Even before this happened, my KDF cruiser was never on par with my Starfleet cruiser.

    Heck, even my Scimitar (engineering) survives better and it's supposedly not even as durable!

    Nope, what's official is that you don't have a damn clue how to fly a Klingon battlecruiser. Back before Delta Rising I took a bare-bones Mirror Negh'Var, geared with nothing but mission rewards, into then-Elite queues all the time. Never had any problem at all keeping it alive even if I was pugging. And I think I've died a grand total of twice in "Borg Disconnected" in my Tor'Kaht, both times at the boss stage and one of those because of a nasty bout of lag.

    Look at your trait set, look at your skillset, look at your gear. It's not the ship, it's the captain.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    In terms of the general survivability of Fed vs. KDF starships the one thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the Leadership Boff trait which provides +20% repair rate and it stacks for all Boffs with this ability. Only humans have the Leadership trait so a cruiser with human Boffs in all 5 station will have their Leadership trait stack. There's a diminishing return though so that 5 Boff does not give +100% repair rate.
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I never had issues flying a KDF battlecruiser. And most of the time I'm in a regular K'Tinga Retrofit. Not a "Fleet" version. Or in the Kamarag.
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    USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
    Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2015
    Man, all I can think of is the old, old thread about how the scimitar needs a survivability buff.

    To which was said:
    agresiel2 wrote: »
    ok rather than telling the OP that he is wrong and that the scim is actually very VERY sturdy i thought id just video myself doing something ive been meaning to do.

    the combatlog.log is in the description of the video, my build is too
    due to BFAW being broken and NOT having any team buffs my dps is MUCH MUCH lower than normal but i still got 17.8k which is respectable

    SO HERE proof scim doesn't need a buff in anyway, and guys quote me here i actually think it needs a little nerf, take its pets away !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_jC3NJyKsQ&feature=youtu.be

    if you dont like the music mute it and play your own :)

    ENJOY!

    I'm just going to agree with the other posters here and say that it's a case of PEBKAC.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

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    Build questions? Look here!
  • tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jaguarskx wrote: »
    In terms of the general survivability of Fed vs. KDF starships the one thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the Leadership Boff trait which provides +20% repair rate and it stacks for all Boffs with this ability. Only humans have the Leadership trait so a cruiser with human Boffs in all 5 station will have their Leadership trait stack. There's a diminishing return though so that 5 Boff does not give +100% repair rate.

    I rechecked my traits and realized I confused Leadership with Creative.
    Considering it's a human only trait and I have 1 Human BOFF and a Human Captain on my Sovereign class, is that enough to make an appreciable difference in ship repair rates?


    Any ship that costs c-points is off-limits at the moment, I've got a bug in my Steam client that prevents me from running the game in Steam.
    And because of that, the c-point purchasing function cannot be enabled.


    As to the survivability prior to this point, I don't think we had any comparable enemies to the Vaardwaur prior to this expansion.
    They hit pretty hard, more so then any other enemy I've encountered.
    So comparing any enemy faction to the Vaardwaur isn't a fair comparision.


    A warning, if you're going to post a hostile response, don't.
    You're not helping solve the situation and it's immature.
    And it doesn't make me want to share my build more then I did before, it just makes me want to keep it even more confidential.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tilarta wrote: »
    I rechecked my traits and realized I confused Leadership with Creative.
    Considering it's a human only trait and I have 1 Human BOFF and a Human Captain on my Sovereign class, is that enough to make an appreciable difference in ship repair rates?


    I think it can make an appreciable difference. I have a Fed engineer flying the Sovereign and a KDF engineer flying the mirror Neg'var. I find the Sovereign to be a bit more survivable so the Leadership skill seems to help with hull repair for the Fed. It seems the KDF is dealt a double whammy. Humans are better at repairs because they have been designed that way and is working as intended. The large crew size bug works against the KDF and Cryptic does not seem to want to address it because, "No one really plays the KDF faction".

    I compensated for this by installing a very rare SIF generator MK XII. However, that takes up an engineering console. The mirror Neg'var has a Lt. Cmdr science station which means I can use Gravity Well 1, which in turns means that I needed to get Aux Power up to a decent level to at least make GW1 somewhat effective. Since I had a decent Aux Power it use the Aux to SIF Boff ability to help with repairs. Eventually, I decided to remove the SIF generator because as long as I keep my shield ups and deal with plasma burn I would be ok.

    Abilities that I used for hull repair are as follows:

    Engineer - Engineering Team 1, Aux to SIF 2
    Science - Hazard Emitters 1
    Captain - Miracle Worker


    ====================================================


    As for C-Points, why not simply buy Zen directly from PWE? I have never had any problems do that myself.
  • edited January 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Well, if it's the Vaads that are giving you trouble, there's a trait in the 8472 rep Tier IV that you might want to try. It's called "Nanoprobe Feedback" and it'll reflect damage back at the enemy: 10% chance to reflect all damage from a directed energy attack, 10 second CD, which if you're being mobbed basically means you're reflecting a shot every ten seconds.

    Also you may want to change out your shield. I run a Dyson shield on my Tor'Kaht and a Borg Set on my D'deridex, both of which have a very good regen proc (DJC shield regenerates shields, 3-piece Borg regenerates hull, which is very useful if I cloak under fire, which BoPs, the Mat'Ha and the Qib can all do).

    Also factor in that the Vaadwaur use polaron weapons. An energy signature dampener console from the Dyson Rep store couldn't hurt.

    And again, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Unless it's the Bortasqu' don't try to fly a battlecruiser like a Fed cruiser. Battlecruisers are designed to be flown similarly to escorts, so play to your ship's strengths. If you're set on using beams, use dual beam banks rather than trying to broadside with beam arrays. Otherwise, use DHCs and turrets.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Yeah, a battlecruiser's designed to be flown like a slow, heavy escort. DBBs or DHCs are the way to go; my QIb is wicked powerful with DBBs.

    Mat'Ha is better than any Fed t6 by far; a really good Phantom pilot might beat it in pvp, but pvp is broken. PVE, the Mat'Ha rules.
  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Well, to be far, our substandard KDF ships can still take down the state-of-the-art frontline ships from the other factions.
    Member since November 2009... I think.
    (UFP) Ragnar
  • edited January 2015
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  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2015
    tilarta wrote: »
    A warning, if you're going to post a hostile response, don't.
    You're not helping solve the situation and it's immature.
    And it doesn't make me want to share my build more then I did before, it just makes me want to keep it even more confidential.

    See, if there was an appreciable problem, you'd get real responses. You're getting some interesting ones about crew and leadership, and while those will have marginal effects, they're not going to be significant. But, the common factor in a lack of success is you, and not sharing your build will prevent the problem from being solved.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jaguarskx wrote: »
    Abilities that I used for hull repair are as follows:

    Captain - Miracle Worker

    Isn't Miracle Worker a Engineer specific skill?
    I don't think all Captains have it.
    jaguarskx wrote: »
    As for C-Points, why not simply buy directly from PWE? I have never had any problems do that myself.

    I tried it once.
    Then I got some error code I didn't recognize about being unable to access whatever authentication server responsible for processing the credit card transaction.

    This happened two, maybe three times, then I gave up.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tilarta wrote: »
    Isn't Miracle Worker a Engineer specific skill?
    I don't think all Captains have it.



    I tried it once.
    Then I got some error code I didn't recognize about being unable to access whatever authentication server responsible for processing the credit card transaction.

    This happened two, maybe three times, then I gave up.


    Yes, it is an engineer specific skill and I pretty sure I stated my KDF toon flying the Mirror Negh'var is an engineer. My other two KDF toons (Tactical, Science) both flies the T5u B'rel Retrofit BoP. They do not have that ability.
  • ghyudtghyudt Member Posts: 1,112 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    misterde3 wrote: »
    *deliberately misunderstands the term* whoah! There are Fed-Aligned Cardassians in this game?:P

    As I recall, the negh'var was forced to retreat when the defiant and another smaller ship started poking at its blind spots. What an epic failure that turned out to be.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ghyudt wrote: »
    As I recall, the negh'var was forced to retreat when the defiant and another smaller ship started poking at its blind spots. What an epic failure that turned out to be.

    It's called Plot Armor. Like when that Defiant-class arrogantly took on a Jem'Hadar Battleship or in First Contact's opening battle. They expose what the Defiant-class really is: A cheap corvette.

    The Defiant in First Contact was doing no better than the Centaur-class, which was Starfleet's newer "Miranda" style ship.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • ceekayzeroceekayzero Member Posts: 411 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It's called Plot Armor. Like when that Defiant-class arrogantly took on a Jem'Hadar Battleship or in First Contact's opening battle. They expose what the Defiant-class really is: A cheap corvette.

    I wouldn't compare the Defiant to a Syndic nickel corvette!

    The Defiant is an escort - it is designed to support larger ships in major engagements. It's not a battleship (like the Sovereign or Dominion ship in "Valiant") or a battle cruiser (like a Negh'var). It was fighting out of its depth, and got its butt handed to it.

    I choose to view the Defiant's success in "Shattered Mirror" as a result of very bad training and tactics by the Alliance, versus the much more experienced Prime-Universe Benjamin Sisko.

    Now, as to the OP's post: Considering that the Negh'var has one more engineering slot at the expense of a tactical slot, that's actually a pretty big deal for survivability against the Vaadwaur - absent DOFFs, you're not going to have TT on constant cooldown; or have BFAW on global. I mean, you can get an extra ET1 in there, but...

    The synergies. We don't know how they are affecting your ship and whether you need a simple tweak to fix things, or a massive overhaul. But that BOFF station difference cascades into trait differences cascades into...well, lots of things.
  • tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It's called Plot Armor. Like when that Defiant-class arrogantly took on a Jem'Hadar Battleship.

    Don't compare the Valiant to the Defiant, the crew situations are completely different.

    The Defiant has a veteran Starfleet crew, including a captain who knows it inside out and a pilot skilled at maneuvering small craft.

    The Valiant had a crew of Academy trainees who were nowhere near ready to take a ship into combat, let alone an copy of experimental prototype warship that wasn't well known to the majority of Starfleet crews.
    It's even stated that their engineers have very little idea how to repair the Valiant, it takes Nog (an engineer who has a familiarity with Defiant systems) to get it fully functional.
    And their "captain" (he was one of the trainees) had delusions of grandeur, fueled by drug induced sleep deprivation.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tilarta wrote: »
    Don't compare the Valiant to the Defiant, the crew situations are completely different.

    The Defiant has a veteran Starfleet crew, including a captain who knows it inside out and a pilot skilled at maneuvering small craft.

    The Valiant had a crew of Academy trainees who were nowhere near ready to take a ship into combat, let alone an copy of experimental prototype warship that wasn't well known to the majority of Starfleet crews.
    It's even stated that their engineers have very little idea how to repair the Valiant, it takes Nog (an engineer who has a familiarity with Defiant systems) to get it fully functional.
    And their "captain" (he was one of the trainees) had delusions of grandeur, fueled by drug induced sleep deprivation.

    What about Sector 001? Or when it tangled with the Lakota, a ship fifty-some-odd years older?

    The Defiant's only an invincible plot device when Sisko's in the command chair. And even that's not guaranteed when the enemy has a technical advantage. The Defiant lost its first fight with the Jem'Hadar and never scored an on-screen kill against anything bigger than a Chel Grett.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    What about Sector 001? Or when it tangled with the Lakota, a ship fifty-some-odd years older?

    The Defiant's only an invincible plot device when Sisko's in the command chair. And even that's not guaranteed when the enemy has a technical advantage. The Defiant lost its first fight with the Jem'Hadar and never scored an on-screen kill against anything bigger than a Chel Grett.

    The Lakota had the capability to destroy the Defiant. Of course, both being crewed by Starfleet there's reluctance on fighting with "the gloves off." When Cmdr Benteen was told to use Quantums to take out the Defiant, she refused to do so since that would destroy the Defiant.

    Not bad for a ship-class dating from Kirk's era, though obviously refitted for the current threats the Federation faced.

    Also in First Contact with the Defiant in poor shape, what comes in to save the day? A Sovereign-class.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    See, if there was an appreciable problem, you'd get real responses. You're getting some interesting ones about crew and leadership, and while those will have marginal effects, they're not going to be significant. .

    I disagree. if the Devs have not fixed the crew mechanic, then Leadership or Crew size is a big deal for KDF ships as the mechanic is still broken and allows smaller crewed ships to heal hull faster than larger crewed ships, and in some situations those same ships never recoup crew losses at all in combat - leaving them in a permanent crippled state in that aspect.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2015
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    I disagree. if the Devs have not fixed the crew mechanic, then Leadership or Crew size is a big deal for KDF ships as the mechanic is still broken and allows smaller crewed ships to heal hull faster than larger crewed ships, and in some situations those same ships never recoup crew losses at all in combat - leaving them in a permanent crippled state in that aspect.

    You're vastly overstating the value of crew size, especially on those large ships (which are engineering heavy). I'm not saying it's good that it's broken, I'm saying it's insignificant. The Pirate trait is far more significant than the Leadership trait anyway.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ghyudt wrote: »
    As I recall, the negh'var was forced to retreat when the defiant and another smaller ship started poking at its blind spots. What an epic failure that turned out to be.

    That was the mirror Negh'var which is a lot bigger than the standard negh'var in the ds9 episode shattered mirror
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
      edited January 2015
      You're vastly overstating the value of crew size, especially on those large ships (which are engineering heavy). I'm not saying it's good that it's broken, I'm saying it's insignificant. The Pirate trait is far more significant than the Leadership trait anyway.

      Not for staying alive and hull healing oneself. Crew is vital, and under the current crew mechanic large crews suffer more from the inability to regen fast enough to get hull repair out of 1% effectiveness. Hardly insignificant when one has no crew in combat.
      Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

      R.I.P
    • tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
      edited February 2015
      I decided to try a APU cruiser on my KDF to see if this would provide any relevant data as to whether the crew number was the defining factor.

      APU Cruiser: Crew Level 200.

      I've only done a few tests so far, but the initial results were quite promising, it handled like I expected of a Starfleet cruiser in terms of durability/repair.

      This is fairly conclusive evidence that it was the crew number that was at fault here, since it is the only variable that changed when I moved to this vessel.

      If the Kobali Anniversary cruiser is compatible with my station/skill layout, I'm planning to use that in the future, since it has a crew number of 650 which should allow me to avoid this problem again.


      So all this talk about needing to adjust my build was going up a certain garden path, since it wouldn't have fixed the innate problem that exists with KDF ships/crew mechanic.

      Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
      Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
    • dwatt78dwatt78 Member Posts: 76 Arc User
      edited February 2015
      I haven't seen any issues with my b'rel t5-u survivability so far. I even did some of the delta content on advanced with only one time getting overwhelmed. kdf have stronger hulls and feds have bigger shields.
    • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
      edited February 2015
      starswordc wrote: »
      Nope, what's official is that you don't have a damn clue how to fly a Klingon battlecruiser. Back before Delta Rising I took a bare-bones Mirror Negh'Var, geared with nothing but mission rewards, into then-Elite queues all the time. Never had any problem at all keeping it alive even if I was pugging. And I think I've died a grand total of twice in "Borg Disconnected" in my Tor'Kaht, both times at the boss stage and one of those because of a nasty bout of lag.

      Look at your trait set, look at your skillset, look at your gear. It's not the ship, it's the captain.

      I took every kind of content with my "bare boned" Hegh'ta, including the stfs one elite (obviously) and also every kind of regular content on advanced or elite (whatever I felt like).

      On level 54 I had to switch to normal, on level 57 I wasn't able to survive a single encounter without constantly beeing one-hitted any more.
      So whatever you did before does not really say much.
      worffan101 wrote: »
      Yeah, a battlecruiser's designed to be flown like a slow, heavy escort. DBBs or DHCs are the way to go; my QIb is wicked powerful with DBBs.

      Mat'Ha is better than any Fed t6 by far; a really good Phantom pilot might beat it in pvp, but pvp is broken. PVE, the Mat'Ha rules.

      What makes the mat'ha so special?
      Cause I really need a new ship for my kdf, nothing I have right now feels enjoyable.

      Actually I tnink about retiring my kdf for good and promote my kdf allied romulan to my main. The scomitar is at least still fun.
      ceekayzero wrote: »
      I wouldn't compare the Defiant to a Syndic nickel corvette!

      The Defiant is an escort - it is designed to support larger ships in major engagements. It's not a battleship (like the Sovereign or Dominion ship in "Valiant") or a battle cruiser (like a Negh'var). It was fighting out of its depth, and got its butt handed to it.

      I choose to view the Defiant's success in "Shattered Mirror" as a result of very bad training and tactics by the Alliance, versus the much more experienced Prime-Universe Benjamin Sisko.

      Now, as to the OP's post: Considering that the Negh'var has one more engineering slot at the expense of a tactical slot, that's actually a pretty big deal for survivability against the Vaadwaur - absent DOFFs, you're not going to have TT on constant cooldown; or have BFAW on global. I mean, you can get an extra ET1 in there, but...

      The synergies. We don't know how they are affecting your ship and whether you need a simple tweak to fix things, or a massive overhaul. But that BOFF station difference cascades into trait differences cascades into...well, lots of things.

      Actually the defiante is designed for swarm tactics, so not to support bigger ships but to support other defiantes.
      She was build to fight the Borg and here this tactics makes a hell lot of sense....
    • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
      edited February 2015
      I took every kind of content with my "bare boned" Hegh'ta, including the stfs one elite (obviously) and also every kind of regular content on advanced or elite (whatever I felt like).

      On level 54 I had to switch to normal, on level 57 I wasn't able to survive a single encounter without constantly beeing one-hitted any more.
      So whatever you did before does not really say much.

      Does the phrase "apples and oranges" ring any bells? A Hegh'ta is a bird-of-prey. It's supposed to be a glass cannon. And on that one in particular you've got the lowest hull rating of any ship in the game except the Aquarius (which has better shields and more boff powers), and you probably have most of your boff slots pointed towards tac.

      The Negh, even the Mirror Negh, is a BC. It may not be as tough as a Fed cruiser but it's a lot more durable than a BoP.
      "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
      — Sabaton, "Great War"
      VZ9ASdg.png

      Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
    • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
      edited February 2015
      starswordc wrote: »
      Does the phrase "apples and oranges" ring any bells? A Hegh'ta is a bird-of-prey. It's supposed to be a glass cannon. And on that one in particular you've got the lowest hull rating of any ship in the game except the Aquarius (which has better shields and more boff powers), and you probably have most of your boff slots pointed towards tac.

      The Negh, even the Mirror Negh, is a BC. It may not be as tough as a Fed cruiser but it's a lot more durable than a BoP.

      Nope I have the commander slot as tac, the rest is deffense and aux 2 bat. At least in the latest setup, did switch arround a lot, but never had more then 1 tac...

      However the point is that getting into trouble with a t5 without u ship at the current endgame does not necessarily mean a terrible player..,
    • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
      edited February 2015
      starswordc wrote: »
      What about Sector 001? Or when it tangled with the Lakota, a ship fifty-some-odd years older?
      It was a fight between Starfleet Officers that weren't entirely convinced of killing each other - but the Excelsior crew was told that there were CHanglings commanding the Defiant. The Defiant crew knew that they were fighting Starfleet officers. Worf didn't even fire back initially! And the Excelsior still lost more crew than the Defiant.
      Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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