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Assembling the Istvaan Shogaatsu issue RADIATION TERRORBOMBER©

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  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    Science and command... never considered that combination, but I see the potential now that you mention it. Massive resist debuffs, buttloads of rad/phys/shield-ignoring-kin damage... yeah, that could work in a mean way.

    I've been working on a sci/command ship and it's been going great. The hangar bay and built in 15% crtD helps too.
  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited April 2015
    I found kemocite weps to be awesome. Finally something to use in the redundant ensign tac position other than tac team!
    Free dps and it seems to work great with the command tree kinetic debuffs.

    They barely seem to do more than 1,500-2,000 rad damage a pop (and that's with my radiation damage bonuses.) Am I missing something? What sort of damage do you get?

    The radiation procs on my bio-photons and neutronic torp do more damage than this power at present, and they don't require wasting a boff power slot, and have 100% uptime.
    I AM WAR.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited April 2015
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    They barely seem to do more than 1,500-2,000 rad damage a pop (and that's with my radiation damage bonuses.) Am I missing something? What sort of damage do you get?

    The radiation procs on my bio-photons and neutronic torp do more damage than this power at present, and they don't require wasting a boff power slot, and have 100% uptime.

    The radiation damage from the ability is not boosted by anything currently (iirc, as I haven't been in game much and didn't make many notes on this power). The Neutronic and Enh Bio radiation damage is boosted by the Energy weap skill, so using the CC deflector (as well as Tac Team) would boost the radDMG from those two torps.

    Also this Tac BOff ability isn't affected by Tac Init (bug, imho). Still, for Tac-rich ships (like the Defiant), it's a much welcomed addition, especially when paired w/ AHOD or A2B (the former being far superior).

    Regardless of whether the radDMG is or isn't boosted, the added radDMG is a nice addition to the reduction in kinetic resistance the target receives. Assuming that the radDMG is applied prior to (or simultaneously with) the kinetic damage, it will still do significant shield damage. Best paired with a Neutronic for shield slamming goodness.

    I cannot stress enough that the radiation proc from Enh BioMolecular torp (and its related family of kinetics) is not a significant source of damage when dealing with targets that have a short TTL (Time To Live). EIGHT seconds to wait for a damage proc is an eternity for small targets. For large targets, the damage is relatively insignificant to the point that it might as well not be there. Either a significant reduction in the time for the damage to be applied (0-2 sec), or a significant increase in the radDMG (you know, like the show where the torp had a delayed blast explosion for massive damage.... canon reference here.) would be a significant improvement for this kinetic variant's line.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • blessedladyboyblessedladyboy Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    My point was that although the actual rad damage isn't massive, the added damage is free as long if you have tac team at global. I wouldn't really suggest putting it anywhere other than ensign, certainly if your in a defiant for example with its redundant ensign slot.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,253 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Been playing on my sci command ship radiation bomber and the Emissions torpedo is far better than the grav torp when used on command ships. For some reason the Emissions torpedo fires far more often than grav torps with concentrate firepower 3. It’s almost like the lingering plasma clouds are triggering the cool down so you get more than twice as many high yield torpedoes in the air with Emissions torps.

    With a PrtG build the Emission torpedo does well over 1000 damage per second per cloud. (I don't eve have any skill points in PrtG) Not counting the basic Plasma DoT or Kinetic damage either. During a quick ISA test run I got well over 100 high yield torpedo shots off. The sci consoles that boost both plasma Exotic and PrtG double boost the Emission torpedo cloud.

    The sci command ship really does feel like a Radiation bomber. But I have a feeling the Tac command ship is better due to the Torpedo Spread 3. All comes down to which you prefer that extra Tac power or extra sci power.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    ankokuneko wrote: »
    why is it when someone complains abut aux levels on an aux to bat build, whenever someone says aux batteries mitigate it they seem to pretend that no one answered them

    Because batteries have a 2min cd maybe?! :)

    Flying an A2B build myself currently; and the advantages are great. But -73.5 aux power is a lot to climb back from. And it often interferes with the duration of my DRB (10 secs). As usual -- and that's a good thing -- A2B is not pure win: it has some disadvantages, not all of which can be mitigated all the time.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    My point was that although the actual rad damage isn't massive, the added damage is free as long if you have tac team at global. I wouldn't really suggest putting it anywhere other than ensign, certainly if your in a defiant for example with its redundant ensign slot.

    I've seen max hits from this land at 11k. On ISA runs, they now make up 2-4k of my DPS. Average damage per hit over the run is about 2.5k on average on my runs since I have gotten it. Not bad I would say. :)
  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited May 2015
    I cannot stress enough that the radiation proc from Enh BioMolecular torp (and its related family of kinetics) is not a significant source of damage when dealing with targets that have a short TTL (Time To Live). EIGHT seconds to wait for a damage proc is an eternity for small targets. For large targets, the damage is relatively insignificant to the point that it might as well not be there. Either a significant reduction in the time for the damage to be applied (0-2 sec), or a significant increase in the radDMG (you know, like the show where the torp had a delayed blast explosion for massive damage.... canon reference here.) would be a significant improvement for this kinetic variant's line.

    It's not just the radiation damage from Enh. Bio-mol/vanilla Bio-mol photons that makes them kick TRIBBLE. It's a combination of factors: fast refire rate, quantum-equivalent damage, 8-sec slow proc, obscene crit chance (when comboed with grav torp set,) AND radiation on top of that.
    I AM WAR.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    The radiation damage from the ability is not boosted by anything currently (iirc, as I haven't been in game much and didn't make many notes on this power). The Neutronic and Enh Bio radiation damage is boosted by the Energy weap skill, so using the CC deflector (as well as Tac Team) would boost the radDMG from those two torps.

    Also this Tac BOff ability isn't affected by Tac Init (bug, imho). Still, for Tac-rich ships (like the Defiant), it's a much welcomed addition, especially when paired w/ AHOD or A2B (the former being far superior).

    Both of these are now fixed. The Gel Pack and the CC Tac Console boost the radDMG of Kemocite.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    It's not just the radiation damage from Enh. Bio-mol/vanilla Bio-mol photons that makes them kick TRIBBLE. It's a combination of factors: fast refire rate, quantum-equivalent damage, 8-sec slow proc, obscene crit chance (when comboed with grav torp set,) AND radiation on top of that.

    They share the same RoF as photons, they do not have quantum equivalent damage, and the crit chance from the Protonic Arsenal 3pc affects all photons with a +10% bonus to critH. Part of your pitch for your build has been the radiation damage component from these torpedoes, and I can attest to you that they are not as significant as you make them out to be. You even put it in ALL CAPS for emphasis.

    Your biggest success has been, and always will be, feedback pulse. Without it, you'll be hard pressed to land as many kills as you currently claim. The abundance of ships with energy weapons is to your advantage when you face off against them. It's what I see in PvP when I played around in it, which is why I specialized in kinetic damage; to hunt FBP users. I concede being average everywhere else in the match, but when someone pops FBP, I get the call to finish them off. I do that with impunity, for I do not fear FBP.

    Now, if you advertised your ship as such, I have no problem with it. Just please, do not misrepresent what is and is not significant damage being performed by your build.

    Thank you.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited May 2015
    Look, I get that you're still butthurt over that time I caught you and your pal trash-talking me behind my back, twice, including one video, but when my photons do the same amounts of damage my quantums do, but at 25% better rate of fire and much higher crit, yes, they are better than quantums, and you're an idiot for stating different.

    As for FBP, it's responsible for at most, 10% of my kills. Vast majority with torps. Don't talk out of your TRIBBLE if you don't know what you're on about, and don't presume to know how I fight. I'm not misrepresenting anything, I'm sharing a build I found successful, and that enraged you because you're trying to do something similar.

    Actually, could you do me a favor? TRIBBLE off and stop posting in my thread. I don't like you, or respect you, or want your input here. Make your own thread if you're better at builds than I am.

    "Thank you."

    (Or maybe you could make another catty video where you call me mean names, that works too.)
    I AM WAR.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    Yes, you caught me at something I told you I was doing. You insulted two other people beforehand who "dared" to question the reasoning for your build, and I 'lost my cool' and "called you names behind your back" because of how you treated them, especially when one of them was not being rude to you at all. So I'll make my apology here for the name calling behind your back.

    I'm sorry.

    Now, with that completed, your information is still incorrect. I also had taken the time to ask questions of people who have been in combat with you. While I am no authority on kinetics, I have studied them enough to be familiar with their performance in PvE & PvP. Some of the information that you are presenting here is factually and demonstrably incorrect.

    Also, you're not the first person to come up w/ a similar build, and I have zero desire to emulate it. I initially wanted to feature your build on a guide, until I started to scrutinize it further. Your reaction to people asking the hard questions about it speaks volumes.

    So, before people start wasting time and resources in an attempt to copy your build and not see this awesome radiation terrorbomber deliver the goods vs competent players (what's left of them anyway), stop with the false advertising.

    Thank you.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,253 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I thought it was far more complicated than one torpedo is flat out better than the other.
    Just looking at raw damage (not crit chance) than 2 Quantum mines will out damage 2 Photon mines even if Bio Photon. On the other hand a Bio Photon torpedo will do more damage than a Quantum torpedo if the target stays alive for more than 8 seconds. If we are talking less than 8 seconds the Quantum is the higher damage torpedo.

    It all gets confusing once we factor in Shearing and crit chance. A Quantum has higher base damage so with a crit hit it will hit harder than a photon and in theory there is a small damage range where you can kill a target in 1 hit with a Quantum while a Photon needs a 2nd shot.

    Quantum’s also deal a higher shearing DoT due to higher base damage. But photons have a 10% better crit chance and that’s not even looking at the unique torpedoes on both sides with further complicate matters.

    Has anyone done the math to work out which is better 10% crit chance for Photons or higher raw damage and higher DoT? from Quantum's. Will the extra crits on the DoT make up for the lower raw damage the Dot is based on?

    My view tends to be in short engagements and for spike/burst damage Quantum win out. But for longer fights photons (more so bio photons) can come out on top. For mines I think with 1 launcher Photon mines win out, with 2 launchers Quantum win out but for torpedo's its more completed then saying one is a flat out winner. Ships factor into it as well . Certain ships tend to lean towards favouring certain torpedo types.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I thought it was far more complicated than one torpedo is flat out better than the other.
    Just looking at raw damage (not crit chance) than 2 Quantum mines will out damage 2 Photon mines even if Bio Photon. On the other hand a Bio Photon torpedo will do more damage than a Quantum torpedo if the target stays alive for more than 8 seconds. If we are talking less than 8 seconds the Quantum is the higher damage torpedo.

    It all gets confusing once we factor in Shearing and crit chance. A Quantum has higher base damage so with a crit hit it will hit harder than a photon and in theory there is a small damage range where you can kill a target in 1 hit with a Quantum while a Photon needs a 2nd shot.

    Quantum’s also deal a higher shearing DoT due to higher base damage. But photons have a 10% better crit chance and that’s not even looking at the unique torpedoes on both sides with further complicate matters.

    Has anyone done the math to work out which is better 10% crit chance for Photons or higher raw damage and higher DoT? from Quantum's. Will the extra crits on the DoT make up for the lower raw damage the Dot is based on?

    My view tends to be in short engagements and for spike/burst damage Quantum win out. But for longer fights photons (more so bio photons) can come out on top. For mines I think with 1 launcher Photon mines win out, with 2 launchers Quantum win out but for torpedo's its more completed then saying one is a flat out winner. Ships factor into it as well . Certain ships tend to lean towards favouring certain torpedo types.

    You have brought up most of the factors that go into deciding which torp to shoot and when to shoot it.

    To keep it simple, I submit to you my experiences in both PvE and PvP:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/darkknightucf/videos
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I thought it was far more complicated than one torpedo is flat out better than the other.

    It's one of the things I've grumbled about the alphabetical order of operations thing about...wanting to TS/HY but only being able to HY/TS...meh.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    It's one of the things I've grumbled about the alphabetical order of operations thing about...wanting to TS/HY but only being able to HY/TS...meh.

    Look, man, it was a fight just to get attention on the firing priority, let alone getting any sort of fix. :-)

    I'm with you, though, as it would be nice if the Sheshar proc (torpedo barrage) didn't proc up to 10 seconds later, and interfere with TS3.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
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