Seriously, what's wrong with "Gimme Free!"? I wouldn't have phrased it like that, but lower costs benefit you too.
What he is saying (and is entirely correct about) is that "Gimme Free!" might feel great for the individual, but it (at best) results in a missed opportunity to create more hooks for players to participate in things like the in-game economy. If the dilithium cost to create the captain only training manuals were removed, then the expectation would be that those manuals would be priced more or less identically to the vendor skills, but located on the exchange. That would feel great for the players, but it doesn't really create any new interest in the economy. In fact, it seems to beg the question of why bother having them at all? Why not just put those skills in the vendor with the rest if there's nothing "special" about them?
I would anticipate that in such a world the standard practice when getting a new BOff would be to simply buy all the skills from the vendor and off the exchange (because why not? They are so cheap as to be almost free, right?), and then simply train them all so that your new BOff can do whatever. There's no actual game there - no cost/benefit analysis, no consideration of which powers you want for your current build and which you can do without at the moment. This, in turn, removes most of the value of the skills your BOff has, making BOffs less valuable overall, and further begging the question of why even bother with training at all - why not just give all BOffs all the available powers and save players the minor cost and hassle of getting all the powers in the first place?
Moreover, I think people are making a mistake when they look at this ONLY from the perspective of the consumer. Given how the system works, you don't have to grind up a crafting school to be a producer of training manuals, you simply have to have the proper skills unlocked from your investment of skill points on your captain. By assigning a dilithium value to those captain only skills you already have, Cryptic has suddenly given you an opportunity to become a producer of something that has some intrinsic value, and by making those items tradeable on the exchange they have made it so that it is easy for you to reach your "market" of players who want those skills.
Couple this with the fact that honestly not everyone has easy access to these captain only skills right now - and that the "value" of them currently seems to be tied more to the inconvenience of that process and less to anything intrinsic in the skills themselves, and you can see that this system, while creating a "cost" for the consumer (which, let's be clear, is NOT dilithium - it's EC that the consumer pays for the PADD/manual on the exchange), it creates "value" for the producer (and everyone can choose to be a producer here if they like).
Well, that's a misleading title if I've ever seen one. That's for the "Finish Now" button. Which I've come to affectionately call the "Instant Gratification" button.
Wich is not, in this particular case. Well... it is, but also not in the same time, again, in this case.
You see, I dont get the reason for the "3rd wall", as I call it. Other then to TRIBBLE up the player and provide an unfun game experience. Yes, you dont have to spend if you dont want to, but sometimes you have to. And its not the point that its optional or not, the point is why is there??
Let me explain. And I'll add an analogy with a real life scenario for example.
So you have the 1st wall (time spent or money, both are resources) wich consist of unlocking the option to buy something. What ever is the lvl 15 on crafting school or the necesary lvl in specialisation via grind to be able to craft the padds. This equals to actually go to the a real shop.
Then you have the 2nd wall wich consist of the resources wich are needed for the crafted item. This is actually earning your money to pay for an item you purchase.
Then there is the 3rd wall, wich is an artificial timer that serves no purpose whatsoever other then to frustrate the player and TRIBBLE up his game experience. There isnt even about instant gratification, since you allready spent plenty of time/ressources within the first 2 walls.
This one has no reason to exists. Lets say when you buy a real item you get this conversation:
Customer: "Ok, can I have that in a plastic bag please (after you payed for the item)"
Seller: "Nope"
Customer: "What??"
Seller: "You have to come tommorow to pick it up or pay an extra 10 bucks to get it now"
Customer: "Oh, its promised to some1 else and you dont have anymore in stock maybe?"
Seller: "Oh no, its not the case. In fact tomorrow it will be the same item"
Customer: "Then its 60 bucks, not 50 maybe? (Lets say the item was 50 bucks)"
Seller: "Oh no, the cost is 50 bucks, you just payed for it"
Customer: "Then give me the item I just payed for"
Seller: "Nope, sry, you will have it tomorrow or today if you pay extra 10 bucks"
Customer: "Why?"
Seller: "For no reason"
Customer: ""
This is a very bad direction that all games are going that defy the very core concept of games. Wich are now nothing more then "things" that TRIBBLE you and provide an unfun experience.
Whats next, adding a timer and a Finish now button after making a ship purchase from C-store? Becouse sadly we are not far from there
So you have the 1st wall (time spent or money, both are resources) wich consist of unlocking the option to buy something. What ever is the lvl 15 on crafting school or the necesary lvl in specialisation via grind to be able to craft the padds. This equals to actually go to the a real shop.
First misunderstanding - this part isn't changing at all. You don't have to "grind" the crafting school for skills - if you have unlocked the skills (which is done the same way as it is now - putting 3 or 6 points into a particular skill on the captain's skill sheet), then you have the ability to craft those training manuals, full stop.
Then you have the 2nd wall wich consist of the resources wich are needed for the crafted item. This is actually earning your money to pay for an item you purchase.
Right- this is the part that adds value to the item, because it creates a situation where some people will prefer to spend EC to buy already crafted PADDs, while others will prefer to spend dilithium on crafting the PADDs and thus save themselves some EC off the exchange. Without this tension, there would be basically no market for the PADDs or for the training manuals they craft.
Then there is the 3rd wall, wich is an artificial timer that serves no purpose whatsoever other then to frustrate the player and TRIBBLE up his game experience. There isnt even about instant gratification, since you allready spent plenty of time/ressources within the first 2 walls.
This one has no reason to exists.
I think you are misunderstanding the time gate here - the idea is to craft your PADDs at the end of your play session, such that they are ready at the beginning of the next one. The idea is that players will want to think ahead and plan out their purchases, or else will want to go to the exchange to "buy it now" and cost themselves a little bit of extra EC. Again, this tension helps drive the market, because it creates a scenario where people who value EC over instant gratification can trade surplus production to people who value instant gratification over EC.
This is a very bad direction that all games are going that defy the very core concept of games. Wich are now nothing more then "things" that TRIBBLE you and provide an unfun experience.
Whats next, adding a timer and a Finish now button after making a ship purchase from C-store? Becouse sadly we are not far from there
Herein we get to the crux of the problem - there are always going to be players that don't enjoy planning out their purchases, or thinking about how to best utilize their resources etc. There are going to be people who just want to get what they want, when they want it, so they can have fun playing with their toys as their whims dictate. While I think that can work well in a single player game (and indeed, I personally will use mods and cheats etc to play single player games that way sometimes), I think it doesn't really work in an MMO where one of the essential assumptions of the genre is that you will be interacting with other people in multiple ways, including economically.
First misunderstanding - this part isn't changing at all. You don't have to "grind" the crafting school for skills - if you have unlocked the skills (which is done the same way as it is now - putting 3 or 6 points into a particular skill on the captain's skill sheet), then you have the ability to craft those training manuals, full stop.
You are misunderstanding. I was not refering at the captain's skills only, wich you conviently nit pick lol. I was refering at the whole officer training school system, wich will include future specializations, and also at the other schools wich you WILL HAVE TO unlock via grinding. And that is a wall, but wich I never said I was against.
Right- this is the part that adds value to the item, because it creates a situation where some people will prefer to spend EC to buy already crafted PADDs, while others will prefer to spend dilithium on crafting the PADDs and thus save themselves some EC off the exchange. Without this tension, there would be basically no market for the PADDs or for the training manuals they craft.
I think you are misunderstanding the time gate here - the idea is to craft your PADDs at the end of your play session, such that they are ready at the beginning of the next one. The idea is that players will want to think ahead and plan out their purchases, or else will want to go to the exchange to "buy it now" and cost themselves a little bit of extra EC. Again, this tension helps drive the market, because it creates a scenario where people who value EC over instant gratification can trade surplus production to people who value instant gratification over EC.
Here you are misunderstanding my point. Why I am FORCED to do something at CERTAIN time? I play as MY TIME and SCHEDULE dictates me, not as some1 tells me. Yes I know the idea behind it, but again, now the devs have started to tell me when to play too? Ok, they can tell me how to play their game, but also when?? Its one of the most ridiculous things I even heard. And its also based on a wrong supposition. Lets say, if I refine my dil at the begining of my play session, I am basicly screwed if I hit un upgrade or start to craft an item, wich I allready payed for with my resources. And what tension? It adds frustration, not tention, into A GAME.... You know, they were supposed to be fun and all:rolleyes: And again with the instant gratification??? Its not, since the player allready waits and pays the TRIBBLE out for an item. This timer, the "3rd wall" I've speak of, is nothing more then a rip off from newly games/tablet games, even single player ones but wich of course require an online connection, where for a part to be installed it takes 2 days:mad: Probably PWE looked around and got inspired from. There isnt any case of instant gratification where you unlock an option to buy an item and you pay for it/work for it. And then you have to wait/pay again? For what???
Herein we get to the crux of the problem - there are always going to be players that don't enjoy planning out their purchases, or thinking about how to best utilize their resources etc. There are going to be people who just want to get what they want, when they want it, so they can have fun playing with their toys as their whims dictate. While I think that can work well in a single player game (and indeed, I personally will use mods and cheats etc to play single player games that way sometimes), I think it doesn't really work in an MMO where one of the essential assumptions of the genre is that you will be interacting with other people in multiple ways, including economically.
Again, its a god damm game. Or at least it was. Planing purchases sure sounds alot like a job or something and far less then a game. And wich supposed to be a Star Trek game, where they didnt had much economy and had replicators, yet this game sure has alot of purchases and timers to wait for something be "crafted"
And you speak of interactig?? This just killed the whole traning for friends/fleeties, so it actually cuts the interaction. Economically?? Thats not interation, thru an exchange hub. Mind as well be a computer/NPC at the other end, it wont matter.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Comments
What he is saying (and is entirely correct about) is that "Gimme Free!" might feel great for the individual, but it (at best) results in a missed opportunity to create more hooks for players to participate in things like the in-game economy. If the dilithium cost to create the captain only training manuals were removed, then the expectation would be that those manuals would be priced more or less identically to the vendor skills, but located on the exchange. That would feel great for the players, but it doesn't really create any new interest in the economy. In fact, it seems to beg the question of why bother having them at all? Why not just put those skills in the vendor with the rest if there's nothing "special" about them?
I would anticipate that in such a world the standard practice when getting a new BOff would be to simply buy all the skills from the vendor and off the exchange (because why not? They are so cheap as to be almost free, right?), and then simply train them all so that your new BOff can do whatever. There's no actual game there - no cost/benefit analysis, no consideration of which powers you want for your current build and which you can do without at the moment. This, in turn, removes most of the value of the skills your BOff has, making BOffs less valuable overall, and further begging the question of why even bother with training at all - why not just give all BOffs all the available powers and save players the minor cost and hassle of getting all the powers in the first place?
Moreover, I think people are making a mistake when they look at this ONLY from the perspective of the consumer. Given how the system works, you don't have to grind up a crafting school to be a producer of training manuals, you simply have to have the proper skills unlocked from your investment of skill points on your captain. By assigning a dilithium value to those captain only skills you already have, Cryptic has suddenly given you an opportunity to become a producer of something that has some intrinsic value, and by making those items tradeable on the exchange they have made it so that it is easy for you to reach your "market" of players who want those skills.
Couple this with the fact that honestly not everyone has easy access to these captain only skills right now - and that the "value" of them currently seems to be tied more to the inconvenience of that process and less to anything intrinsic in the skills themselves, and you can see that this system, while creating a "cost" for the consumer (which, let's be clear, is NOT dilithium - it's EC that the consumer pays for the PADD/manual on the exchange), it creates "value" for the producer (and everyone can choose to be a producer here if they like).
Wich is not, in this particular case. Well... it is, but also not in the same time, again, in this case.
You see, I dont get the reason for the "3rd wall", as I call it. Other then to TRIBBLE up the player and provide an unfun game experience. Yes, you dont have to spend if you dont want to, but sometimes you have to. And its not the point that its optional or not, the point is why is there??
Let me explain. And I'll add an analogy with a real life scenario for example.
So you have the 1st wall (time spent or money, both are resources) wich consist of unlocking the option to buy something. What ever is the lvl 15 on crafting school or the necesary lvl in specialisation via grind to be able to craft the padds. This equals to actually go to the a real shop.
Then you have the 2nd wall wich consist of the resources wich are needed for the crafted item. This is actually earning your money to pay for an item you purchase.
Then there is the 3rd wall, wich is an artificial timer that serves no purpose whatsoever other then to frustrate the player and TRIBBLE up his game experience. There isnt even about instant gratification, since you allready spent plenty of time/ressources within the first 2 walls.
This one has no reason to exists. Lets say when you buy a real item you get this conversation:
Customer: "Ok, can I have that in a plastic bag please (after you payed for the item)"
Seller: "Nope"
Customer: "What??"
Seller: "You have to come tommorow to pick it up or pay an extra 10 bucks to get it now"
Customer: "Oh, its promised to some1 else and you dont have anymore in stock maybe?"
Seller: "Oh no, its not the case. In fact tomorrow it will be the same item"
Customer: "Then its 60 bucks, not 50 maybe? (Lets say the item was 50 bucks)"
Seller: "Oh no, the cost is 50 bucks, you just payed for it"
Customer: "Then give me the item I just payed for"
Seller: "Nope, sry, you will have it tomorrow or today if you pay extra 10 bucks"
Customer: "Why?"
Seller: "For no reason"
Customer: "
This is a very bad direction that all games are going that defy the very core concept of games. Wich are now nothing more then "things" that TRIBBLE you and provide an unfun experience.
Whats next, adding a timer and a Finish now button after making a ship purchase from C-store? Becouse sadly we are not far from there
Pretty ironic to hear a developer apologist talk about "not questioning things", wouldn't you say?
The in-cohenrent bable you put in there speaks for itself though and is all I had to see
I can't believe people are objecting to it, so I guess we're even?
First misunderstanding - this part isn't changing at all. You don't have to "grind" the crafting school for skills - if you have unlocked the skills (which is done the same way as it is now - putting 3 or 6 points into a particular skill on the captain's skill sheet), then you have the ability to craft those training manuals, full stop.
Right- this is the part that adds value to the item, because it creates a situation where some people will prefer to spend EC to buy already crafted PADDs, while others will prefer to spend dilithium on crafting the PADDs and thus save themselves some EC off the exchange. Without this tension, there would be basically no market for the PADDs or for the training manuals they craft.
I think you are misunderstanding the time gate here - the idea is to craft your PADDs at the end of your play session, such that they are ready at the beginning of the next one. The idea is that players will want to think ahead and plan out their purchases, or else will want to go to the exchange to "buy it now" and cost themselves a little bit of extra EC. Again, this tension helps drive the market, because it creates a scenario where people who value EC over instant gratification can trade surplus production to people who value instant gratification over EC.
Herein we get to the crux of the problem - there are always going to be players that don't enjoy planning out their purchases, or thinking about how to best utilize their resources etc. There are going to be people who just want to get what they want, when they want it, so they can have fun playing with their toys as their whims dictate. While I think that can work well in a single player game (and indeed, I personally will use mods and cheats etc to play single player games that way sometimes), I think it doesn't really work in an MMO where one of the essential assumptions of the genre is that you will be interacting with other people in multiple ways, including economically.
There are bugs and connection issues more than enough in game wghich have not been adressed.:mad:
I'd be buying Zen except I want to buy ships, not rent them.
And again, where I said I was against this?
Here you are misunderstanding my point. Why I am FORCED to do something at CERTAIN time? I play as MY TIME and SCHEDULE dictates me, not as some1 tells me. Yes I know the idea behind it, but again, now the devs have started to tell me when to play too? Ok, they can tell me how to play their game, but also when?? Its one of the most ridiculous things I even heard. And its also based on a wrong supposition. Lets say, if I refine my dil at the begining of my play session, I am basicly screwed if I hit un upgrade or start to craft an item, wich I allready payed for with my resources. And what tension? It adds frustration, not tention, into A GAME.... You know, they were supposed to be fun and all:rolleyes: And again with the instant gratification??? Its not, since the player allready waits and pays the TRIBBLE out for an item. This timer, the "3rd wall" I've speak of, is nothing more then a rip off from newly games/tablet games, even single player ones but wich of course require an online connection, where for a part to be installed it takes 2 days:mad: Probably PWE looked around and got inspired from. There isnt any case of instant gratification where you unlock an option to buy an item and you pay for it/work for it. And then you have to wait/pay again? For what???
Again, its a god damm game. Or at least it was. Planing purchases sure sounds alot like a job or something and far less then a game. And wich supposed to be a Star Trek game, where they didnt had much economy and had replicators, yet this game sure has alot of purchases and timers to wait for something be "crafted"
And you speak of interactig?? This just killed the whole traning for friends/fleeties, so it actually cuts the interaction. Economically?? Thats not interation, thru an exchange hub. Mind as well be a computer/NPC at the other end, it wont matter.
Official boff training revamp feedback thread is located http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1345151
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
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