"Most Training Manuals can be purchased off of any current Bridge Officer Training Officer and will include any power which is currently available on these trainers."
They've also stated that this how they're planning the holodeck release (see. that first blog.) Crafting is applicable to those special abilities you could once only get through captain training (ie. you).
You can change the quantity (up to 5), and then the times stack. (This is how it always works, I The ability to set the quantity is more a convenience feature than anything else).
In short, use one slot to craft 5, it takes 20 hours. Use 5 slots to craft 1 each, it takes 4 hours. Similarly, if you want to flood the market, use 5 slots to craft 5 each and tomorrow you have your exchange dump. It's flexible.
Real problems like being unable to train Untradable and Unique boffs in Captain powers of a different type?
How many Engineering Captains have a Intel/Science Boff with GW3? Zero.
It's a bit late to tell you that now, but you can ask someone else to train your BOFF, unless it's a bound boff.
So yeah, I have GW3 on my engi captain. Alongside AP:B 3 and BFAW 3.
Anyway, I think this is a step in the good direction, and it's something I've been hoping and waiting since I first played STO.
Sure it takes a bit of time and some resources (not much). But once my BOFF will have all the skill I want, I will forget the whole thing. To me, it's a one time fee.
It's so much better than having to deal with my limited BOFF roster everytime I want to change a build or I have a new ship, and I spend hours to find a way to make my build work without having to delete a BOFF/change his skill while he is used on another build.
It's a bit late to tell you that now, but you can ask someone else to train your BOFF, unless it's a bound boff.
So yeah, I have GW3 on my engi captain.
Please reread what I have wrote. I said Intel/Science, and ALL intel boffs are Bound. So no you dont have an Intel/Science with GW3 if you are an Engineer.
Please reread what I have wrote. I said Intel/Science, and ALL intel boffs are Bound. So no you dont have an Intel/Science with GW3 if you are an Engineer.
Can't you trade the white intel boff ? I haven't done that. So I'm not sure.
Can't you trade the white intel boff ? I haven't done that. So I'm not sure.
intel boffs are all currently bound to character meaning if you need an intel power, you need to train it yourself. The new system will fix that.
For the others saying it's just some EC to train a boff now...yeah it is but that's for each time. The new system will mean training a boff once and never having to do it again for that power. It also means switching powers in a map. I could swap epts3 for eptw3 in a STF if I feel I don't need the extra shield resistance and want extra DPS without changing boffs, for example. That's something I'm looking forward to. One advanced STF gives more than enough Dil to train one boff a power that you get to keep forever. That's pretty neat in my opinion.
It's a bit late to tell you that now, but you can ask someone else to train your BOFF, unless it's a bound boff.
So yeah, I have GW3 on my engi captain. Alongside AP:B 3 and BFAW 3.
ding ding ding! Though the present system must admittedly suck for those without friends, or at least a fleet.
they're introducing a grind for training boff skills? might be the straw
No, they aren't. Though captain-trainable boff manuals (any that were offered by the old skill trainer will still be offered as completed manuals by the same skill trainer) are being handled through the R+D system, there will be no additional grind involved in getting them beyond merely aquiring the right skills (for tac/sci/eng), necessary specialization points (for intel/command), and green crafting materials (if somehow you don't have an over-abundance of those anyway).
Everything unlocks via the same requirements (roughly, high level intel powers are being brought down from 22 to 20 spec points), its just being handled with much more flexible mechanics (which incidentally makes it an tradable commodity in a free marketplace, which is where the additional costs and time-gating come in. There has to be something to the production that prevents craftable GW3 manuals from reaching the same economic low as replicatable food items, small ground devices, and commodities. Ie. resources [time, dil, and mats] beyond EC.)
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There has to be something to the production that prevents craftable GW3 manuals from reaching the same economic low as replicatable food items, small ground devices, and commodities. Ie. resources [time, dil, and mats] beyond EC.)
Why? Why does there need to be something?
This new system helps with training bound bridge officers, which is great. This new system also makes it inevitable that training manuals for really powerful bridge officer powers will appear in future lockboxes. So what if captain-trainable skills end up really cheap on the exchange? Right now, you just need someone to train your bridge officers for 300 energy credits.
20 hour timegates, no thanks let's just keep it instant
... and free
And with the exchange what does that result in? EPtW3 selling for about as much as root beer. If you're going to explose a system in a video game to an economic system you want that interaction to do something to the process of earning content with effort vaguely proportional to its value to gameplay. Some of these abilities can be quite useful (compared to their cheap NPC boff-trainer alternatives). The kicker NOW is that only some captains have access to them [except through an unintentional exploit of the trading system]. Remove that and what do you have? An unjustifiable situation, they might as well put all abilities in the vendor's inventory instead.
And while that might be a perfectly functional way of revamping skill training its taking away a unique aspect of player professions and for no better reason than to maintain a very simplistic expectation as set by the old system (minus the context that made it work.) On the other hand they could add a time/dil cost in order to create a definite amount of intrinsic value in the captain-trainable manuals so that being able to make your own copy of EPtW3 is a recognizable facet to being an ENG (with the right skill set.)
More to consider, more to work with, more depth. That's a better design for a video game (big, over-arching concern), however much it may drain your character's virtual piggy bank (small, personal concern. It may be the more noticable, but that's not the same as saying its the most important.)
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This new system helps with training bound bridge officers, which is great. This new system also makes it inevitable that training manuals for really powerful bridge officer powers will appear in future lockboxes. So what if captain-trainable skills end up really cheap on the exchange? Right now, you just need someone to train your bridge officers for 300 energy credits.
If you don't have a cost beyond EC for an item that you can produce at will, the cost of that item on the exchange will be near enough that original cost that you might as well not bother putting it anywhere but the most accessible vendors.
Resources (time, materials, dilithium) build in value to a crafted item. Players can use that added value to earn money via reliably translating their playtime into money through surprisingly normal economic processes (you take raw materials and translate them through effort into more desirable goods that you can sell at a reliable profit to other individuals, because they don't have the willingness, time, and/or capability to do what you did for that item).
It should be said though that training manuals do not need to be incorportated into this industrial approach to STO loot in order to work or in order for that approach to continue. However if they were, craftable training manual could provide players with another potential direction from which to approach a rich free-market. Its could be an expansion of the principle, allowing more specialized "professions" to exist within the STO economy (gear, upgrades, and then skill manuals), making it much more interesting to interact with which would in a word make the game better. But it would come at the cost of having the items cost something (and something that not all players would be willing to pay in all circumstances, hence the use of the exchange.)
The question is simply that of "adding a game system" (and letting it benefit the game in a rather simple and direct way) or "adding a game system with some tweaks" (to try to set it so that it can interact constructively with other facets to this MMO in order to create compound benefits.) Either way Cryptic has their boff skill revamp, but STO could get more for the investment by making a meaningful commodity out of training manuals.
Compared to "it used to be free" that may be hard to personally accept, but just consider where else the game uses costs to create additional mechanics and gameplay. The hurdle is just in ignoring the first reaction built into us as consumers.
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And with the exchange what does that result in? EPtW3 selling for about as much as root beer. If you're going to explose a system in a video game to an economic system you want that interaction to do something to the process of earning content with effort vaguely proportional to its value to gameplay. Some of these abilities can be quite useful (compared to their cheap NPC boff-trainer alternatives). The kicker NOW is that only some captains have access to them [except through an unintentional exploit of the trading system]. Remove that and what do you have? An unjustifiable situation, they might as well put all abilities in the vendor's inventory instead.
And while that might be a perfectly functional way of revamping skill training its taking away a unique aspect of player professions and for no better reason than to maintain a very simplistic expectation as set by the old system (minus the context that made it work.) On the other hand they could add a time/dil cost in order to create a definite amount of intrinsic value in the captain-trainable manuals so that being able to make your own copy of EPtW3 is a recognizable facet to being an ENG (with the right skill set.)
Are you seriously calling trading bridge officers with other players in order to train them an "exploit?"
There is no ADDED value in adding a cost where it doesn't need one. Say, I decide to train one of my bridge officers. Either I need to use refined dilithium, some materials, some energy credits, and a bunch of time waiting for the item to "finish" crafting or I purchase a training manual off the exchange for some energy credits. I train my bridge officer and the item is consumed. Where's the added value? The cost is totally artificial. I am not getting any added value from having additional cost to the item.
More to consider, more to work with, more depth. That's a better design for a video game, however much it may drain your character's virtual piggy bank.
What do you mean by "more to consider, more to work with, more depth"? What am I supposed to consider? What am I working with? What depth? The bridge officer powers themselves haven't been changed. It is just an added cost that adds nothing.
The WHOLE point of this system is to get players to either use up their refined dilithium or buy Zen to exchange for refined dilthium to get past the ARTIFICIAL timegate. It doesn't matter if the system inconveniences 99 players and they decide not to pay to get pass the timegate, the system was implemented to get that ONE player who will.
EDIT: Added on, you responded to my previous post while I was typing this out.
Resources (time, materials, dilithium) build in value to a crafted item. Players can use that added value to earn money via reliably translating their playtime into money through surprisingly normal economic processes (you take raw materials and translate them through effort into more desirable goods that you can sell at a reliable profit to other individuals, because they don't have the willingness, time, and/or capability to do what you did for that item).
Compared to "it used to be free" that may be hard to personally accept, but just consider where else the game uses costs to create additional mechanics and gameplay. The hurdle is just in ignoring the first reaction built into us as consumers.
How will players make energy credits through crafting these training manuals? I imagine that there's enough players of all three different careers that there won't be a shortage of any specific training manual. The cost of the training manual on the exchange, after the initial couple of days, should normalize so that the cost equals to roughly the cost of the materials needed to craft the item.
Why should we ignore the reaction of "it used to be free"? I feel that it's a perfectly rational, logical reaction to what is happening. We experience that reaction for a reason.
Are you seriously calling trading bridge officers with other players in order to train them an "exploit?"
Yes, not with the negative connoations you apparently assume (because I suspect you just want to be a contrarian) but just as a description of its use of a loophole in the player trading mechanic that I'm sure no dev intentionally put there.
Is there any moral judgement in using it? No but its not a part of the game's design.
There is no ADDED value in adding a cost where it doesn't need one.
This might be better handled if you took an intro course to economic systems (or just read something on it, though hopefully at above the level of a wiki). Basically my response is "insert statement of basic economic theory here." Value is added by additional cost. Not in the sense of what a consumer sees (ex. a feature list) but in how the economy treats it.
What do you mean by "more to consider, more to work with, more depth"? What am I supposed to consider? What am I working with? What depth?.
Again, economics. If you can't see this its not my or even the game's problem, but a fault with your perspective. These interactions exist in game. People "mine" resources to "fabricate" items to sell at a marked up price according to the value added by the effort. This mirrors (in a very rudimentary fashion) how civilization works (because its what enabled specialized professions to arise in human society) and I invite you to try to learn about that process (because, among other things, as it is applicable to STO it would help you considerably to participate with this discussion).
If you make craftable manuals cost more [of a resource that isn't just EC] than they did before under a crafting system you allow [let's just call for the sake of simplicity] the mechanic of civilization to act on the boff skill training system. Its not necessary but having it there does add depth to the game as a whole (by creating a larger set of meaningful interactions and approaches beyond the simplest possible implementation of the gameplay mechanics.)
The benefit of this to us I shouldn't need to argue (and I wouldn't if the rally cry "Gimme Free!" wasn't so easily at hand) for an MMO (where a rudimentary RPG/action game is made into a much, much, much larger game just on the basis on the additional social interactions, most especially those that are economic in nature.)
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Yes, not with the negative connoations you apparently assume (because I suspect you just want to be a contrarian) but just as a description of its use of a loophole in the player trading mechanic that I'm sure no dev intentionally put there.
I'm a contrarian? I don't see many people wanting additional costs and you're the one who supports adding costs for the sole purpose of adding costs. What do you mean by "I'm sure no dev intentionally put there"? Could you tell us how Cryptic originally intended for players to train bridge officers in powers only trainable by other captain careers.
This might be better handled if you took an intro course to economic systems (or just read something on it, though hopefully at above the level of a wiki). Basically my response is "insert statement of basic economic theory here." Value is added by additional cost. Not in the sense of what a consumer sees (ex. a feature list) but in how the economy treats it.
Value is not added by additional costs, but through additional benefits. Bridge officer training remains the same, the added cost did not add any additional value. I either train my bridge officer in Emergency Power to Weapons III or ask another player to do it today. When this new system comes out, I need to either craft a EPtW III manual or purchase the manual for it off the exchange. The bridge officer power remains the same despite the additional costs, no value was added. Additional costs should mean additional benefits, there is no additional benefit. Your definition of value sounds more like inflation, the price (or cost) went up, but the item remains the same.
Again, economics. If you can't see this its not my or even the game's problem, but a fault with your perspective. These interactions exist in game. People "mine" resources to "fabricate" items to sell at a marked up price according to the value added by the effort. This mirrors (in a very rudimentary fashion) how civilization works (because its what enabled specialized professions to arise in human society) and I invite you to try to learn about that process (because, among other things, as it is applicable to STO it would help you considerably to participate with this discussion).
There is no value added with the increased cost of bridge officer training. You can purchase an item off the exchange, improve the item through upgrading, and sell the improved item on the exchange for a higher price. The higher price represents the time, effort, and resources that went into the item, that is adding value. That is different from what is happening with bridge officer training. Bridge officer training will be pretty much the same after the new system comes out. Instead of training bridge officers yourself or asking someone else to do it, you use training manuals. The only real change will the increased cost.
If you make craftable manuals cost more [of a resource that isn't just EC] than they did before under a crafting system you allow [let's just call for the sake of simplicity] the mechanic of civilization to act on the boff skill training system. Its not necessary but having it there does add depth to the game as a whole (by creating a larger set of meaningful interactions and approaches beyond the simplest possible implementation of the gameplay mechanics.)
The benefit of this to us I shouldn't need to argue (and I wouldn't if the rally cry "Gimme Free!" wasn't so easily at hand) for an MMO (where a rudimentary RPG/action game is made into a much, much, much larger game just on the basis on the additional social interactions, most especially those that are economic in nature.)
It's the same interactions that exist right now. Engineering and science players need tactical players to train their bridge officers. There is no depth added with additional costs. If you want depth, maybe add a small bit of variation to bridge officer powers. Training slightly different bridge officer powers requires different materials. That is adding depth to the game. Merely increasing costs is not depth.
Seriously, what's wrong with "Gimme Free!"? I wouldn't have phrased it like that, but lower costs benefit you too.
Seriously, what's wrong with "Gimme Free!"? I wouldn't have phrased it like that, but lower costs benefit you too.
What he is saying (and is entirely correct about) is that "Gimme Free!" might feel great for the individual, but it (at best) results in a missed opportunity to create more hooks for players to participate in things like the in-game economy. If the dilithium cost to create the captain only training manuals were removed, then the expectation would be that those manuals would be priced more or less identically to the vendor skills, but located on the exchange. That would feel great for the players, but it doesn't really create any new interest in the economy. In fact, it seems to beg the question of why bother having them at all? Why not just put those skills in the vendor with the rest if there's nothing "special" about them?
I would anticipate that in such a world the standard practice when getting a new BOff would be to simply buy all the skills from the vendor and off the exchange (because why not? They are so cheap as to be almost free, right?), and then simply train them all so that your new BOff can do whatever. There's no actual game there - no cost/benefit analysis, no consideration of which powers you want for your current build and which you can do without at the moment. This, in turn, removes most of the value of the skills your BOff has, making BOffs less valuable overall, and further begging the question of why even bother with training at all - why not just give all BOffs all the available powers and save players the minor cost and hassle of getting all the powers in the first place?
Moreover, I think people are making a mistake when they look at this ONLY from the perspective of the consumer. Given how the system works, you don't have to grind up a crafting school to be a producer of training manuals, you simply have to have the proper skills unlocked from your investment of skill points on your captain. By assigning a dilithium value to those captain only skills you already have, Cryptic has suddenly given you an opportunity to become a producer of something that has some intrinsic value, and by making those items tradeable on the exchange they have made it so that it is easy for you to reach your "market" of players who want those skills.
Couple this with the fact that honestly not everyone has easy access to these captain only skills right now - and that the "value" of them currently seems to be tied more to the inconvenience of that process and less to anything intrinsic in the skills themselves, and you can see that this system, while creating a "cost" for the consumer (which, let's be clear, is NOT dilithium - it's EC that the consumer pays for the PADD/manual on the exchange), it creates "value" for the producer (and everyone can choose to be a producer here if they like).
Well, that's a misleading title if I've ever seen one. That's for the "Finish Now" button. Which I've come to affectionately call the "Instant Gratification" button.
Wich is not, in this particular case. Well... it is, but also not in the same time, again, in this case.
You see, I dont get the reason for the "3rd wall", as I call it. Other then to TRIBBLE up the player and provide an unfun game experience. Yes, you dont have to spend if you dont want to, but sometimes you have to. And its not the point that its optional or not, the point is why is there??
Let me explain. And I'll add an analogy with a real life scenario for example.
So you have the 1st wall (time spent or money, both are resources) wich consist of unlocking the option to buy something. What ever is the lvl 15 on crafting school or the necesary lvl in specialisation via grind to be able to craft the padds. This equals to actually go to the a real shop.
Then you have the 2nd wall wich consist of the resources wich are needed for the crafted item. This is actually earning your money to pay for an item you purchase.
Then there is the 3rd wall, wich is an artificial timer that serves no purpose whatsoever other then to frustrate the player and TRIBBLE up his game experience. There isnt even about instant gratification, since you allready spent plenty of time/ressources within the first 2 walls.
This one has no reason to exists. Lets say when you buy a real item you get this conversation:
Customer: "Ok, can I have that in a plastic bag please (after you payed for the item)"
Seller: "Nope"
Customer: "What??"
Seller: "You have to come tommorow to pick it up or pay an extra 10 bucks to get it now"
Customer: "Oh, its promised to some1 else and you dont have anymore in stock maybe?"
Seller: "Oh no, its not the case. In fact tomorrow it will be the same item"
Customer: "Then its 60 bucks, not 50 maybe? (Lets say the item was 50 bucks)"
Seller: "Oh no, the cost is 50 bucks, you just payed for it"
Customer: "Then give me the item I just payed for"
Seller: "Nope, sry, you will have it tomorrow or today if you pay extra 10 bucks"
Customer: "Why?"
Seller: "For no reason"
Customer: ""
This is a very bad direction that all games are going that defy the very core concept of games. Wich are now nothing more then "things" that TRIBBLE you and provide an unfun experience.
Whats next, adding a timer and a Finish now button after making a ship purchase from C-store? Becouse sadly we are not far from there
So you have the 1st wall (time spent or money, both are resources) wich consist of unlocking the option to buy something. What ever is the lvl 15 on crafting school or the necesary lvl in specialisation via grind to be able to craft the padds. This equals to actually go to the a real shop.
First misunderstanding - this part isn't changing at all. You don't have to "grind" the crafting school for skills - if you have unlocked the skills (which is done the same way as it is now - putting 3 or 6 points into a particular skill on the captain's skill sheet), then you have the ability to craft those training manuals, full stop.
Then you have the 2nd wall wich consist of the resources wich are needed for the crafted item. This is actually earning your money to pay for an item you purchase.
Right- this is the part that adds value to the item, because it creates a situation where some people will prefer to spend EC to buy already crafted PADDs, while others will prefer to spend dilithium on crafting the PADDs and thus save themselves some EC off the exchange. Without this tension, there would be basically no market for the PADDs or for the training manuals they craft.
Then there is the 3rd wall, wich is an artificial timer that serves no purpose whatsoever other then to frustrate the player and TRIBBLE up his game experience. There isnt even about instant gratification, since you allready spent plenty of time/ressources within the first 2 walls.
This one has no reason to exists.
I think you are misunderstanding the time gate here - the idea is to craft your PADDs at the end of your play session, such that they are ready at the beginning of the next one. The idea is that players will want to think ahead and plan out their purchases, or else will want to go to the exchange to "buy it now" and cost themselves a little bit of extra EC. Again, this tension helps drive the market, because it creates a scenario where people who value EC over instant gratification can trade surplus production to people who value instant gratification over EC.
This is a very bad direction that all games are going that defy the very core concept of games. Wich are now nothing more then "things" that TRIBBLE you and provide an unfun experience.
Whats next, adding a timer and a Finish now button after making a ship purchase from C-store? Becouse sadly we are not far from there
Herein we get to the crux of the problem - there are always going to be players that don't enjoy planning out their purchases, or thinking about how to best utilize their resources etc. There are going to be people who just want to get what they want, when they want it, so they can have fun playing with their toys as their whims dictate. While I think that can work well in a single player game (and indeed, I personally will use mods and cheats etc to play single player games that way sometimes), I think it doesn't really work in an MMO where one of the essential assumptions of the genre is that you will be interacting with other people in multiple ways, including economically.
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Your comment bears no relation to his comment.
Free Tibet!
In short, use one slot to craft 5, it takes 20 hours. Use 5 slots to craft 1 each, it takes 4 hours. Similarly, if you want to flood the market, use 5 slots to craft 5 each and tomorrow you have your exchange dump. It's flexible.
The current 150 ec
I'd rather keep the retraining method with those 2 options.
Versus the current system which already is instant and only costs 150-300 ec.
Yeah, no. I think I'd rather see company resources invested into fixing actual problems. This whole affair is a faux solution in search of one.
Real problems like being unable to train Untradable and Unique boffs in Captain powers of a different type?
How many Engineering Captains have a Intel/Science Boff with GW3? Zero.
So yeah, I have GW3 on my engi captain. Alongside AP:B 3 and BFAW 3.
Anyway, I think this is a step in the good direction, and it's something I've been hoping and waiting since I first played STO.
Sure it takes a bit of time and some resources (not much). But once my BOFF will have all the skill I want, I will forget the whole thing. To me, it's a one time fee.
It's so much better than having to deal with my limited BOFF roster everytime I want to change a build or I have a new ship, and I spend hours to find a way to make my build work without having to delete a BOFF/change his skill while he is used on another build.
Please reread what I have wrote. I said Intel/Science, and ALL intel boffs are Bound. So no you dont have an Intel/Science with GW3 if you are an Engineer.
intel boffs are all currently bound to character meaning if you need an intel power, you need to train it yourself. The new system will fix that.
For the others saying it's just some EC to train a boff now...yeah it is but that's for each time. The new system will mean training a boff once and never having to do it again for that power. It also means switching powers in a map. I could swap epts3 for eptw3 in a STF if I feel I don't need the extra shield resistance and want extra DPS without changing boffs, for example. That's something I'm looking forward to. One advanced STF gives more than enough Dil to train one boff a power that you get to keep forever. That's pretty neat in my opinion.
I traded mine off to have gw3 done up, then again its probably just a reporting error.
Yes! You Are Correct, Bierstein, Sir!
I do enjoy your guile here in this thread.
And...wait for it...
Klingons do not show mercy, and, they do not take prisoners!
They do tend to blow up their own Moon though.
ding ding ding! Though the present system must admittedly suck for those without friends, or at least a fleet.
No, they aren't. Though captain-trainable boff manuals (any that were offered by the old skill trainer will still be offered as completed manuals by the same skill trainer) are being handled through the R+D system, there will be no additional grind involved in getting them beyond merely aquiring the right skills (for tac/sci/eng), necessary specialization points (for intel/command), and green crafting materials (if somehow you don't have an over-abundance of those anyway).
Everything unlocks via the same requirements (roughly, high level intel powers are being brought down from 22 to 20 spec points), its just being handled with much more flexible mechanics (which incidentally makes it an tradable commodity in a free marketplace, which is where the additional costs and time-gating come in. There has to be something to the production that prevents craftable GW3 manuals from reaching the same economic low as replicatable food items, small ground devices, and commodities. Ie. resources [time, dil, and mats] beyond EC.)
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yeah works great for all the bound boffs I have like my liberated borg...oh wait...
No idea what that means, but if that mean's I can call you a troll now I will take that opportunity.
... and free
Why? Why does there need to be something?
This new system helps with training bound bridge officers, which is great. This new system also makes it inevitable that training manuals for really powerful bridge officer powers will appear in future lockboxes. So what if captain-trainable skills end up really cheap on the exchange? Right now, you just need someone to train your bridge officers for 300 energy credits.
And with the exchange what does that result in? EPtW3 selling for about as much as root beer. If you're going to explose a system in a video game to an economic system you want that interaction to do something to the process of earning content with effort vaguely proportional to its value to gameplay. Some of these abilities can be quite useful (compared to their cheap NPC boff-trainer alternatives). The kicker NOW is that only some captains have access to them [except through an unintentional exploit of the trading system]. Remove that and what do you have? An unjustifiable situation, they might as well put all abilities in the vendor's inventory instead.
And while that might be a perfectly functional way of revamping skill training its taking away a unique aspect of player professions and for no better reason than to maintain a very simplistic expectation as set by the old system (minus the context that made it work.) On the other hand they could add a time/dil cost in order to create a definite amount of intrinsic value in the captain-trainable manuals so that being able to make your own copy of EPtW3 is a recognizable facet to being an ENG (with the right skill set.)
More to consider, more to work with, more depth. That's a better design for a video game (big, over-arching concern), however much it may drain your character's virtual piggy bank (small, personal concern. It may be the more noticable, but that's not the same as saying its the most important.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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If you don't have a cost beyond EC for an item that you can produce at will, the cost of that item on the exchange will be near enough that original cost that you might as well not bother putting it anywhere but the most accessible vendors.
Resources (time, materials, dilithium) build in value to a crafted item. Players can use that added value to earn money via reliably translating their playtime into money through surprisingly normal economic processes (you take raw materials and translate them through effort into more desirable goods that you can sell at a reliable profit to other individuals, because they don't have the willingness, time, and/or capability to do what you did for that item).
It should be said though that training manuals do not need to be incorportated into this industrial approach to STO loot in order to work or in order for that approach to continue. However if they were, craftable training manual could provide players with another potential direction from which to approach a rich free-market. Its could be an expansion of the principle, allowing more specialized "professions" to exist within the STO economy (gear, upgrades, and then skill manuals), making it much more interesting to interact with which would in a word make the game better. But it would come at the cost of having the items cost something (and something that not all players would be willing to pay in all circumstances, hence the use of the exchange.)
The question is simply that of "adding a game system" (and letting it benefit the game in a rather simple and direct way) or "adding a game system with some tweaks" (to try to set it so that it can interact constructively with other facets to this MMO in order to create compound benefits.) Either way Cryptic has their boff skill revamp, but STO could get more for the investment by making a meaningful commodity out of training manuals.
Compared to "it used to be free" that may be hard to personally accept, but just consider where else the game uses costs to create additional mechanics and gameplay. The hurdle is just in ignoring the first reaction built into us as consumers.
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Are you seriously calling trading bridge officers with other players in order to train them an "exploit?"
There is no ADDED value in adding a cost where it doesn't need one. Say, I decide to train one of my bridge officers. Either I need to use refined dilithium, some materials, some energy credits, and a bunch of time waiting for the item to "finish" crafting or I purchase a training manual off the exchange for some energy credits. I train my bridge officer and the item is consumed. Where's the added value? The cost is totally artificial. I am not getting any added value from having additional cost to the item.
What do you mean by "more to consider, more to work with, more depth"? What am I supposed to consider? What am I working with? What depth? The bridge officer powers themselves haven't been changed. It is just an added cost that adds nothing.
The WHOLE point of this system is to get players to either use up their refined dilithium or buy Zen to exchange for refined dilthium to get past the ARTIFICIAL timegate. It doesn't matter if the system inconveniences 99 players and they decide not to pay to get pass the timegate, the system was implemented to get that ONE player who will.
EDIT: Added on, you responded to my previous post while I was typing this out.
How will players make energy credits through crafting these training manuals? I imagine that there's enough players of all three different careers that there won't be a shortage of any specific training manual. The cost of the training manual on the exchange, after the initial couple of days, should normalize so that the cost equals to roughly the cost of the materials needed to craft the item.
Why should we ignore the reaction of "it used to be free"? I feel that it's a perfectly rational, logical reaction to what is happening. We experience that reaction for a reason.
Yes, not with the negative connoations you apparently assume (because I suspect you just want to be a contrarian) but just as a description of its use of a loophole in the player trading mechanic that I'm sure no dev intentionally put there.
Is there any moral judgement in using it? No but its not a part of the game's design.
This might be better handled if you took an intro course to economic systems (or just read something on it, though hopefully at above the level of a wiki). Basically my response is "insert statement of basic economic theory here." Value is added by additional cost. Not in the sense of what a consumer sees (ex. a feature list) but in how the economy treats it.
Again, economics. If you can't see this its not my or even the game's problem, but a fault with your perspective. These interactions exist in game. People "mine" resources to "fabricate" items to sell at a marked up price according to the value added by the effort. This mirrors (in a very rudimentary fashion) how civilization works (because its what enabled specialized professions to arise in human society) and I invite you to try to learn about that process (because, among other things, as it is applicable to STO it would help you considerably to participate with this discussion).
If you make craftable manuals cost more [of a resource that isn't just EC] than they did before under a crafting system you allow [let's just call for the sake of simplicity] the mechanic of civilization to act on the boff skill training system. Its not necessary but having it there does add depth to the game as a whole (by creating a larger set of meaningful interactions and approaches beyond the simplest possible implementation of the gameplay mechanics.)
The benefit of this to us I shouldn't need to argue (and I wouldn't if the rally cry "Gimme Free!" wasn't so easily at hand) for an MMO (where a rudimentary RPG/action game is made into a much, much, much larger game just on the basis on the additional social interactions, most especially those that are economic in nature.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'm a contrarian? I don't see many people wanting additional costs and you're the one who supports adding costs for the sole purpose of adding costs. What do you mean by "I'm sure no dev intentionally put there"? Could you tell us how Cryptic originally intended for players to train bridge officers in powers only trainable by other captain careers.
Value is not added by additional costs, but through additional benefits. Bridge officer training remains the same, the added cost did not add any additional value. I either train my bridge officer in Emergency Power to Weapons III or ask another player to do it today. When this new system comes out, I need to either craft a EPtW III manual or purchase the manual for it off the exchange. The bridge officer power remains the same despite the additional costs, no value was added. Additional costs should mean additional benefits, there is no additional benefit. Your definition of value sounds more like inflation, the price (or cost) went up, but the item remains the same.
There is no value added with the increased cost of bridge officer training. You can purchase an item off the exchange, improve the item through upgrading, and sell the improved item on the exchange for a higher price. The higher price represents the time, effort, and resources that went into the item, that is adding value. That is different from what is happening with bridge officer training. Bridge officer training will be pretty much the same after the new system comes out. Instead of training bridge officers yourself or asking someone else to do it, you use training manuals. The only real change will the increased cost.
It's the same interactions that exist right now. Engineering and science players need tactical players to train their bridge officers. There is no depth added with additional costs. If you want depth, maybe add a small bit of variation to bridge officer powers. Training slightly different bridge officer powers requires different materials. That is adding depth to the game. Merely increasing costs is not depth.
Seriously, what's wrong with "Gimme Free!"? I wouldn't have phrased it like that, but lower costs benefit you too.
Vestereng, I honestly don't think I've said this to anyone before, but you need to take my sig to heart.
Really.
What he is saying (and is entirely correct about) is that "Gimme Free!" might feel great for the individual, but it (at best) results in a missed opportunity to create more hooks for players to participate in things like the in-game economy. If the dilithium cost to create the captain only training manuals were removed, then the expectation would be that those manuals would be priced more or less identically to the vendor skills, but located on the exchange. That would feel great for the players, but it doesn't really create any new interest in the economy. In fact, it seems to beg the question of why bother having them at all? Why not just put those skills in the vendor with the rest if there's nothing "special" about them?
I would anticipate that in such a world the standard practice when getting a new BOff would be to simply buy all the skills from the vendor and off the exchange (because why not? They are so cheap as to be almost free, right?), and then simply train them all so that your new BOff can do whatever. There's no actual game there - no cost/benefit analysis, no consideration of which powers you want for your current build and which you can do without at the moment. This, in turn, removes most of the value of the skills your BOff has, making BOffs less valuable overall, and further begging the question of why even bother with training at all - why not just give all BOffs all the available powers and save players the minor cost and hassle of getting all the powers in the first place?
Moreover, I think people are making a mistake when they look at this ONLY from the perspective of the consumer. Given how the system works, you don't have to grind up a crafting school to be a producer of training manuals, you simply have to have the proper skills unlocked from your investment of skill points on your captain. By assigning a dilithium value to those captain only skills you already have, Cryptic has suddenly given you an opportunity to become a producer of something that has some intrinsic value, and by making those items tradeable on the exchange they have made it so that it is easy for you to reach your "market" of players who want those skills.
Couple this with the fact that honestly not everyone has easy access to these captain only skills right now - and that the "value" of them currently seems to be tied more to the inconvenience of that process and less to anything intrinsic in the skills themselves, and you can see that this system, while creating a "cost" for the consumer (which, let's be clear, is NOT dilithium - it's EC that the consumer pays for the PADD/manual on the exchange), it creates "value" for the producer (and everyone can choose to be a producer here if they like).
Wich is not, in this particular case. Well... it is, but also not in the same time, again, in this case.
You see, I dont get the reason for the "3rd wall", as I call it. Other then to TRIBBLE up the player and provide an unfun game experience. Yes, you dont have to spend if you dont want to, but sometimes you have to. And its not the point that its optional or not, the point is why is there??
Let me explain. And I'll add an analogy with a real life scenario for example.
So you have the 1st wall (time spent or money, both are resources) wich consist of unlocking the option to buy something. What ever is the lvl 15 on crafting school or the necesary lvl in specialisation via grind to be able to craft the padds. This equals to actually go to the a real shop.
Then you have the 2nd wall wich consist of the resources wich are needed for the crafted item. This is actually earning your money to pay for an item you purchase.
Then there is the 3rd wall, wich is an artificial timer that serves no purpose whatsoever other then to frustrate the player and TRIBBLE up his game experience. There isnt even about instant gratification, since you allready spent plenty of time/ressources within the first 2 walls.
This one has no reason to exists. Lets say when you buy a real item you get this conversation:
Customer: "Ok, can I have that in a plastic bag please (after you payed for the item)"
Seller: "Nope"
Customer: "What??"
Seller: "You have to come tommorow to pick it up or pay an extra 10 bucks to get it now"
Customer: "Oh, its promised to some1 else and you dont have anymore in stock maybe?"
Seller: "Oh no, its not the case. In fact tomorrow it will be the same item"
Customer: "Then its 60 bucks, not 50 maybe? (Lets say the item was 50 bucks)"
Seller: "Oh no, the cost is 50 bucks, you just payed for it"
Customer: "Then give me the item I just payed for"
Seller: "Nope, sry, you will have it tomorrow or today if you pay extra 10 bucks"
Customer: "Why?"
Seller: "For no reason"
Customer: "
This is a very bad direction that all games are going that defy the very core concept of games. Wich are now nothing more then "things" that TRIBBLE you and provide an unfun experience.
Whats next, adding a timer and a Finish now button after making a ship purchase from C-store? Becouse sadly we are not far from there
Pretty ironic to hear a developer apologist talk about "not questioning things", wouldn't you say?
The in-cohenrent bable you put in there speaks for itself though and is all I had to see
I can't believe people are objecting to it, so I guess we're even?
First misunderstanding - this part isn't changing at all. You don't have to "grind" the crafting school for skills - if you have unlocked the skills (which is done the same way as it is now - putting 3 or 6 points into a particular skill on the captain's skill sheet), then you have the ability to craft those training manuals, full stop.
Right- this is the part that adds value to the item, because it creates a situation where some people will prefer to spend EC to buy already crafted PADDs, while others will prefer to spend dilithium on crafting the PADDs and thus save themselves some EC off the exchange. Without this tension, there would be basically no market for the PADDs or for the training manuals they craft.
I think you are misunderstanding the time gate here - the idea is to craft your PADDs at the end of your play session, such that they are ready at the beginning of the next one. The idea is that players will want to think ahead and plan out their purchases, or else will want to go to the exchange to "buy it now" and cost themselves a little bit of extra EC. Again, this tension helps drive the market, because it creates a scenario where people who value EC over instant gratification can trade surplus production to people who value instant gratification over EC.
Herein we get to the crux of the problem - there are always going to be players that don't enjoy planning out their purchases, or thinking about how to best utilize their resources etc. There are going to be people who just want to get what they want, when they want it, so they can have fun playing with their toys as their whims dictate. While I think that can work well in a single player game (and indeed, I personally will use mods and cheats etc to play single player games that way sometimes), I think it doesn't really work in an MMO where one of the essential assumptions of the genre is that you will be interacting with other people in multiple ways, including economically.