The Refit Constitution was never discontinued

cidstorm

Its time to put this myth down for good.

The Olympia could be nothing other other than a Connie refit and it was in service three years before season 6 of DS9. The Connie saucer was never used in its entirety on any ship other than a Connie and you can see it plain as day in the sound of her voice.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Olympia

There is also wreckage of a Connie saucer and engineering hull at the battle of Wolf 359. Both of these components were only used on the real deal refit.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359-other.htm

With in show quotes on current era service, two appearances, and a whole family of ships just as old still in service, it's time to stop spreading any word of a class wide decommissioning.

talonxv

What you just posted is supposition and theory, not hard actual facts.

Considering the Enterprise A was about 7 years old when they decommissioned her, I would have to say it was more likely the entire class was decommissioned about the same time since Excelsiors were taking over, it's far more likely most of the class was decommned.

Just because they reused the prop because it was there does not mean the class was still in service. It was simply a lack of funds and using what they had around.

For all we know, Olimpia could of been a Reliant class with the after hull snapped off due to damage.

cidstorm

talonxv wrote: »

What you just posted is supposition and theory, not hard actual facts.

Considering the Enterprise A was about 7 years old when they decommissioned her, I would have to say it was more likely the entire class was decommissioned about the same time since Excelsiors were taking over, it's far more likely most of the class was decommned.

Just because they reused the prop because it was there does not mean the class was still in service. It was simply a lack of funds and using what they had around.

For all we know, Olimpia could of been a Reliant class with the after hull snapped off due to damage.

We can see a circular outline around half of the saucer and we know the model was a Connie refit model. There's no supposition here.

daveyny

talonxv wrote: »

What you just posted is supposition and theory, not hard actual facts.

Considering the Enterprise A was about 7 years old when they decommissioned her, I would have to say it was more likely the entire class was decommissioned about the same time since Excelsiors were taking over, it's far more likely most of the class was decommned.

Just because they reused the prop because it was there does not mean the class was still in service. It was simply a lack of funds and using what they had around.

For all we know, Olimpia could of been a Reliant class with the after hull snapped off due to damage.

The guys that actually helped create the episode (Drexler, Hutzel & Jein), said they used the exploded ENTERPRISE model from ST:III.

That pretty much confirms that the Olympia was of the same class and refit.

Your "guess" as to when the class was decommissioned is an even less valid supposition.

At least there are "Facts" to back up what the Olympia was apparently created to be, not a guess.

:cool:

cmdrscarlet

Could it be that the subjects statement is true ... And then Worf happened. Starfleet threw almost everything there. So maybe there are no more constitution Refits.

seaofsorrows

They show part of a hull briefly floating in the wreckage at Wolf 359.

Aside from that, there has been no active Constitution Class ship appearing in any other episode of TNG, None in DS9 (except the tribble flashback), and never shown or mentioned in Voyager.

Not once, in all 3 shows combined.. not a single Constitution class seen or discussed anywhere.

You're using one very brief showing that could have been just a prop or a ship pulled out of mothballs out of desperation to fight the Borg as rationale to say that the Constitution was never decommissioned.

The Constitution class has obviously been out of service for a very long time.

It's time to let go.

warmaker001b

Yet we have endgame ENT-era ships flying around in STO.

We have KDF, Starfleet, Rom Republic Navy captains using non-faction ships.

But hey, Constitution-class and Miranda-class ships, despite the latter being used as late as the Dominion War onscreen... having them in endgame Fed use in STO is immersion breaking.

daveyny

seaofsorrows wrote: »

They show part of a hull briefly floating in the wreckage at Wolf 359.

Aside from that, there has been no active Constitution Class ship appearing in any other episode of TNG, None in DS9 (except the tribble flashback), and never shown or mentioned in Voyager.

Not once, in all 3 shows combined.. not a single Constitution class seen or discussed anywhere.

You're using one very brief showing that could have been just a prop or a ship pulled out of mothballs out of desperation to fight the Borg as rationale to say that the Constitution was never decommissioned.

The Constitution class has obviously been out of service for a very long time.

It's time to let go.

Not having seen any other ships of that class, does not automatically mean they don't exist.
The Original series version is obviously no longer used, as they were probably all refit through the years.
But you can't assume something no longer exists just because you haven't seen it in the show.

You can assume that they aren't prevalent, but that also doesn't mean they don't exist.

The Constitution Class has been updated/refit several times and is most likely not a Front-line ship anymore, but they could still be used as couriers and scouts within localized areas.

The fact that we see them drifting around ESD in the game, goes completely against your assumption they are all gone/decommissioned.

:cool:

cidstorm

seaofsorrows wrote: »

They show part of a hull briefly floating in the wreckage at Wolf 359.

Aside from that, there has been no active Constitution Class ship appearing in any other episode of TNG, None in DS9 (except the tribble flashback), and never shown or mentioned in Voyager.

Not once, in all 3 shows combined.. not a single Constitution class seen or discussed anywhere.

You're using one very brief showing that could have been just a prop or a ship pulled out of mothballs out of desperation to fight the Borg as rationale to say that the Constitution was never decommissioned.

The Constitution class has obviously been out of service for a very long time.

It's time to let go.

When we see footage of the New Orleans class in Wolf 359 wreckage people don't just assume it's a galaxy class because it shares a lot of components, we dig deep and find the ship that actually was there as confirmed by the reality behind the show. The reality was that it's a wrecked Connie model, the same one that was in the Wolf 359 wreckage. You can't admit one was a Connie but not the other.

The Olympia was also ending an 8 year mission before it crashed 3 years prior to the episode. In other words it was performing standard duties before the Borg were even discovered.

decuisd24

Federation starship hulls have a 100 hundred year commission life (STTNG technical manual) however the class its self may only be in production for a third of that, so attrition of loss will whittle down the class number over the years. But you must remember the Federation is vast (1000 light years from end to end) so it's very probable that many older classes of ships still exist as border patrol vessels or training ships. There are certainly thousands of ships in mothball yards throughout the Federation and Starfleet extensively re-commissioned many of these ships due to the Dominion war.
Even in the real world you'd be surprised how long some ships can serve for I'm serving in the British Royal Navy and I know of 2 old ships we still use as training vessels HMS Caroline (world war 1 cruiser) and HMS Victory 17th century ship of the line and first sea lords ship. The yanks where still packing battleships till the early 90's.

Unknown

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stofsk

warmaker001b wrote: »

Yet we have endgame ENT-era ships flying around in STO.

We have KDF, Starfleet, Rom Republic Navy captains using non-faction ships.

But hey, Constitution-class and Miranda-class ships, despite the latter being used as late as the Dominion War onscreen... having them in endgame Fed use in STO is immersion breaking.

I know what you're trying to say, but I'd argue those other things are immersion breaking as much as a T5 Connie would be. In fact, even more so, because a T5 Connie is never, ever, going to happen, ever. So it's a total and complete non-issue that people simply refuse to let go of. But right now we have Starfleet Captains flying whatever the flavour of the month Lockbox ship is atm, the Romulan Republic having dozens of Scimitar warbirds, and KDF getting sloppy seconds like the Mogh.

This game could only be improved if it dropped the 'Star Trek Theme Park' aspect to it.

shpoks

warmaker001b wrote: »

Yet we have endgame ENT-era ships flying around in STO.

We have KDF, Starfleet, Rom Republic Navy captains using non-faction ships.

But hey, Constitution-class and Miranda-class ships, despite the latter being used as late as the Dominion War onscreen... having them in endgame Fed use in STO is immersion breaking.

This is my biggest issue with this topic. We have all the TRIBBLE warmaker001b mentioned here, but yet we're somehow restricted from using the one ship that was the center piece at the beginning of it all, at the start of the franchise. The legendary Constitution, the ship on which it all began, nearly 50 years of Trek. To add insult to injury, we can buy the original Enterprise interiors, even the ship herself but locked at T1.

Now, if the developer of this game had shown any interest about consistency I'd be amongst the first people to say "let it go". But STO currently is one heck of a mess of everything, many things even directly ripped-off other franchises that have never been seen on any Star Trek show or movie.
So I would love someone to explain to me, be it Cryptic or CBS - how can the 100 years older Xindi Aquatic Carrier be one of the most potent end-game ships, yet the 100 years newer Constitution is for scrap metal. Especially when the Aquatic Carrier is not the only such example.

More to the point of the topic - I get what the OP is trying to say, explain and put evidence to. It's pointless wheather the Constitution Refit was discontinued or not, because we're not dealing with logic on this topic - we're dealing with nonesensical arbitrary decisions here. Even if it was discontinued that doesn't mean it shouldn't have place in a game like STO where obviously everyhing goes. Everything except the legendary, most iconic, first Starfleet ship on screen, aparently. :rolleyes:

stofsk

Look, although I personally think it's a bit long in the tooth, yeah you can say that about a lot of ship classes (the Excelsior being one of the best Fed cruisers solely because she's one of the devs favourites). I'm not unsympathetic to the idea. Hell, dress it up in the T2 Excalibur's clothes and maybe as a compromise that will get some of the fans to shut the hell up about it. But this game's been around for four years, pushing five. If it hasn't happened by now it ain't going to.

cmdrscarlet

If the 'theme park' were gone people would TRIBBLE the game wasn't "Star Trek". Heck, it's already happening and players get to use the Connie.

If we decide that STO is not canon, then I'm comfortable with the idea that the ship was truly decommissioned after Worf 359 with any remaining in service to die out.

warmaker001b

cmdrscarlet wrote: »

If the 'theme park' were gone people would TRIBBLE the game wasn't "Star Trek". Heck, it's already happening and players get to use the Connie.

If we decide that STO is not canon, then I'm comfortable with the idea that the ship was truly decommissioned after Worf 359 with any remaining in service to die out.

If this game ever TRULY depicted the varied militaries as they supposedly would for 2409, 2410, then fine. But when the first Lockbox/Lobi Non-Faction ship came out, it never has and it only got worse.

You could have made it a really good case to only use modern 2409/2410 era ships with older TNG/DS9/Dominion War era designs still soldiering on. But when Non-Faction ships, ancient ENT-era ships started coming in, the argument to exclude the original centerpiece ship class that started it all for Star Trek was done. Over.

Nobody bats an eye that the extremely old D-7 / K'T'Inga Battlecruiser is viably playable at endgame. Hell, someone got their T5U version to 75k freaking hull. Yes, in canon it was used as late as the Dominion War era. But the sad fact that the KDF can use its original, TOS era ship while Starfleet can't dig out the ORIGINAL starring ship of the franchise strikes people as fine? The fact you can fly Andorian Escorts at T5/T5U and that's not immersion breaking in STO? But a Constitution-class is?

We have playable Species 8472 Bioships playable ingame. But a Constitution-class is immersion breaking?

Come on, Cryptic!

daveyny

The OP wasn't talking about getting a higher tier Connie in the game.
He was simply disputing the thought that the Constitution Class of starships no longer exists.

(His signature is an appeal, but isn't the main deduction of his post)

Some folks apparently believe that the class is no longer viable and therefore isn't used by Star Fleet anymore just because the producers of the shows chose not to depict them as often as other ships.

I simply used the game as the current Trek variation that disproves that thought.

:cool:

lianthelia

warmaker001b wrote: »

Yet we have endgame ENT-era ships flying around in STO.

We have KDF, Starfleet, Rom Republic Navy captains using non-faction ships.

But hey, Constitution-class and Miranda-class ships, despite the latter being used as late as the Dominion War onscreen... having them in endgame Fed use in STO is immersion breaking.

"sighs" Why can't people get it through their heads that Starfleet isn't like most of the stand alone races in the galaxy? Starfleet loves to move onto bigger and better things...just like Humans.

Other races aren't the same...sure they will build new things buy they also love to use and upgrade older designs.

There were very few ships in Starfleet that were long lived...sure Mirandas were used in DS9...but they were nothing but fodder...Starfleet had to throw anything and everything they could at the Dominion.

Do you have any proof they were actually building more Mirandas Dominion war and post? Or could it be there were just a lot of Mirandas available because they were the workhorse of Starfleet until the Nebula which only started to be build 10 years before the Dominion war.

The oldest produced Miranda I can find is the Saratoga...Sisko's old ship....which was destroyed in 2367...which was only 4 years after the Nebula began production. Which was 6 years before the Dominion wars...so the Mirandas could have very well been left over from a Pre-Nebula time period. I doubt they were going to decommission the Mirandas when they knew the Borg were out there and they needed every ship they had at the ready.

The Alien ships on the other hand are kinda silly and I agree...especially with the Undine ships...should of never been playable.

cidstorm

cmdrscarlet wrote: »

If the 'theme park' were gone people would TRIBBLE the game wasn't "Star Trek". Heck, it's already happening and players get to use the Connie.

If we decide that STO is not canon, then I'm comfortable with the idea that the ship was truly decommissioned after Worf 359 with any remaining in service to die out.

Do you have anything to back up your theory? Because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

vetteguy904

daveyny wrote: »

The guys that actually helped create the episode (Drexler, Hutzel & Jein), said they used the exploded ENTERPRISE model from ST:III.

That pretty much confirms that the Olympia was of the same class and refit.

Your "guess" as to when the class was decommissioned is an even less valid supposition.

At least there are "Facts" to back up what the Olympia was apparently created to be, not a guess.

:cool:

but it is not canon


and as far as your wanting an endgame Constitution, again, CBS has said NO. get over it

dareau

On the directly stated topic of this thread:

The Connie did, with photographic evidence, fly in the 24th century, especially Worf 359.

The source of these ships (Active duty? Training? Mothball fleet? Museum piece?) is unstated. Therefore, the future viability of the Connie in the 24th and 25th century is questionable, at best.

As to gameplay concerns, this "issue" has been addressed in the FCT, if my understanding of the last one of these T5 / T6 Connie threads went... Therefore, let's respect the FCT in this matter...

daveyny

vetteguy904 wrote: »

but it is not canon


and as far as your wanting an endgame Constitution, again, CBS has said NO. get over it

Darling, I got over it long ago..., how about you get over being rude and paying attention to the topic at hand...

We are discussing whether or not the Constitution Class (in some way, shape or form) is still in service in the 25th century, not if there should be one viable at endgame in STO.

:cool:

cidstorm

dareau wrote: »

On the directly stated topic of this thread:

The Connie did, with photographic evidence, fly in the 24th century, especially Worf 359.

The source of these ships (Active duty? Training? Mothball fleet? Museum piece?) is unstated. Therefore, the future viability of the Connie in the 24th and 25th century is questionable, at best.

As to gameplay concerns, this "issue" has been addressed in the FCT, if my understanding of the last one of these T5 / T6 Connie threads went... Therefore, let's respect the FCT in this matter...

If you watch the sound of her voice you learn what the ships mission was. It's an 8 year exploration mission deep into the beta quadrant. Calling them just trainers is factually incorrect.

ghyudt

As far as I know, we never see a constitution in service in TNG or Voyager, and I did some searching in DS9 and never saw one there either. The OP does make a point though. All the xindi ships and some others are a lot older than the retired Connie, and therefore should not be tier 5 ships.

organicmanfred

ghyudt wrote: »

As far as I know, we never see a constitution in service in TNG or Voyager, and I did some searching in DS9 and never saw one there either. The OP does make a point though. All the xindi ships and some others are a lot older than the retired Connie, and therefore should not be tier 5 ships.

the "old" ships in game are story wise NOT old ships but current technology built into modular skins which look like older ships.

like all these kitchenware products have these retro look. new technology in old looking hulls.

firehawk4

It is only soft canon at best since it is novels but the Constitution class appears in 2 TNG novels. One is an active starfleet vessel and in the other it was a decommissioned one sold to a private entity.

dave18193

While I agree with the idea of an end-game connie, or at least a connie-like ship such as the gorgeous exeter, I dont think its entirely fair to compare the andorian ships to them.

After all, the andorian escorts are a completely different design to 22nd C Kumari. They are 25th century descendants, brand new in fact.

I just wish theyd put out a T5/6 Exter so we could all find something else to drool over.

warmaker001b

dave18193 wrote: »

While I agree with the idea of an end-game connie, or at least a connie-like ship such as the gorgeous exeter, I dont think its entirely fair to compare the andorian ships to them.

After all, the andorian escorts are a completely different design to 22nd C Kumari. They are 25th century descendants, brand new in fact.

I just wish theyd put out a T5/6 Exter so we could all find something else to drool over.

You serious? :rolleyes:

It is completely fair to bring up that Ancient Andorian Escorts are flying in today's endgame of STO
ENT depiction of the Kumari
STO depiction of the Kumari

lianthelia wrote: »

"sighs" Why can't people get it through their heads that Starfleet isn't like most of the stand alone races in the galaxy? Starfleet loves to move onto bigger and better things...just like Humans.

Other races aren't the same...sure they will build new things buy they also love to use and upgrade older designs.

There were very few ships in Starfleet that were long lived...sure Mirandas were used in DS9...but they were nothing but fodder...Starfleet had to throw anything and everything they could at the Dominion.

Do you have any proof they were actually building more Mirandas Dominion war and post? Or could it be there were just a lot of Mirandas available because they were the workhorse of Starfleet until the Nebula which only started to be build 10 years before the Dominion war.

The oldest produced Miranda I can find is the Saratoga...Sisko's old ship....which was destroyed in 2367...which was only 4 years after the Nebula began production. Which was 6 years before the Dominion wars...so the Mirandas could have very well been left over from a Pre-Nebula time period. I doubt they were going to decommission the Mirandas when they knew the Borg were out there and they needed every ship they had at the ready.

The Alien ships on the other hand are kinda silly and I agree...especially with the Undine ships...should of never been playable.

You really serious in this?

There is canon proof that Starfleet also keeps around old ship classes to continue serving. The Excelsior even BEFORE the Dominion War was still normally serving even though there had already been 2 subsequent replacements of the type. Ambassador and Galaxy-class ships have replaced her, yet here we go, even during a peacetime Starfleet the Excelsior soldiers on.

Starfleet is just like the Klingons with their ships. If the ship can still perform the duties needed by their military, they'll still use them. Would there be better newer things? Sure. There is always a need to patrol regions of space, perform security actions, participate in fleet actions. And no military in Star Trek is fully composed of the hottest, newest, biggest ships. Not even real lilfe navies are like that. Not even a fleet as large as Starfleet is fully composed of Galaxy, Sovereign classes. The Klingons saw that the old D-7/K'T'Inga line could still serve even though the Vor'Cha is completely superior in every possible way, then the later produced Negh'Var. Even into the Dominion War. Starfleet saw that their old ships could still serve. And they have, on screen.

As far as the Mirandas serving Post-Dominion War? Cryptic had answered that already. You must be completely oblivious to the commonplace appearance of Miranda-class ships in STO.

Do you have any proof that the Miranda-class is at an end after all during and after the Dominion War? The canon example is none. They were used in the Dominion War and that is as definitive a canon example and an answer we are ever going to get because with the end of DS9, VOY, and Nemesis, there has been NOTHING else to say otherwise with TV shows and movies.

You can make all the "But" and "If" and whatever guesses you want. But it is undeniable FACT, canon-wise, that Excelsiors, Mirandas served to defend the Federation in the Dominion War. There is canon evidence that even before that cataclysmic war, the Excelsior was still serving.

peetapipmac

I just can't anymore with these Connie threads. :rolleyes:

starkaos

warmaker001b wrote: »

You serious? :rolleyes:

It is completely fair to bring up that Ancient Andorian Escorts are flying in today's endgame of STO
ENT depiction of the Kumari
STO depiction of the Kumari

Calling the STO version of the Kumari the same as the Enterprise version of the Kumari is like calling the Constitution the same as the Galaxy. While there are some obvious similarities, they are completely different ships.

warmaker001b

starkaos wrote: »

Calling the STO version of the Kumari the same as the Enterprise version of the Kumari is like calling the Constitution the same as the Galaxy. While there are some obvious similarities, they are completely different ships.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Take a look at those images again. Think about it, then tell yourself honestly that those are completely different ships.