They work fine, I had a set of 6 (with the Omni-Directional array) on my Rom's Faeht when I was still gearing her (no KCB). Pulled around 15k when I hit up ISA to grab BNPs for the Omega ground set.
Ditto! there's plenty of free gear that is 'good enough'.
I'm not a Science guy, but the advice givers in this thread appear to be doing alright. Looks like you have to not be in the tactical mindset, and actually crank up the Part Gens skill to 400.
I've been experimenting with my sci toon lately, and although a long way off from being happy, I do more dps with tractor beam repulsers than with 6 beam arrays now
The troublesome ships I would be referring to are those that are short on tactical ability slots and weapons slots. But are rich in engineer and science ability slots, and console spots. An extreme example would be
Maybe there's some elite gear setup that would make this playable in the advanced ques, but it certainly isn't an option for the average or even exceptional player. You play something like that in the advanced ques and you will be the team boatanchor. And if there's other people in the group who are not running a winboat-minmax-dps offensive build as well? Enjoy your quick trip home and subsequent 30 minute que cooldown.
This is a little better but it can also be a challenge in the advanced ques. The weapons are 4/4 but it lacks tactical ability slots. (The pets of course help)
Try being on probe duty in khittomer vortex in that when someone messes up and drops a cube on your head. You won't have enough dps to finish the probes and you will be quickly killed by the cube. If these ships and ships like them are marginally playable in the advanced ques, I'd say that difficulty is set wrong.
And if some of you say "challenge accepted!" to this, more power to you, go for it.
Are you kidding me? If its a cruiser, and you dont have access to phantom trait, go a2b. You get technicians in BTran. So long you dont have them, play classic damage control engineer-build without Attackpatterns (faw and such is in those cases more important), as DCEs can easily obtained by doffing engineering, which is one of the easiest to max out (many high cxp-missions), and with t3 you already got 2 blue ones (1 from ferra, 1 from replicator). The lv40 assault is a prime example for this.
But what you posted is even easier. The cruisers have limited options -they can get into trouble, at least on unexperienced players-, but sci ships? They are versatile. Put some torps on it, get some projectile doffs (1 you get form nimbus with leveling, the others from military doffing, also fast and easily level-able), that way you can neglect weapon power. For the cheap build get a photon-torp (many missions reward them, rapidfiring transphasic is also good), the breen-cluster-torp (episode) and hapeng-torp (mission/doffing depending on faction). Max power to aux and shield, neglect engines and weapons. Add some TT and torpabilities. And now you have many, many sci-abilities, normally enough for 2 TSS, 2 HE, 2 GW. Usually you can even throw a TBR in.
Later one would use rom hyper, breen cluster (it simply rocks) and gravimetric/neutronic/bio-torp.
Now comes the big point of the sciships: if you cant dps them out of the universe, you can simply stall them for eternity. Probeduty in a sciship shouldnt be a problem. And a single cube knocking on you shouldnt be a problem either. Play "where angels fear to thread" and you get a good anti-borg shield. Hell, you could even go and add some flowcaps and a TR3 on sciships and deactivate the entire probespawn, so you dont even have to trouble yourself with their shields.
Seriously,as long as its just a timer for optional (like ISA and I think kase too) its very easy with a sciship to do. Might not be fast, but you will finish it. I had a isa today were my 11k designstudy-scyer (I need the trait^^) was the best ship, the next one had 7k, and the worst 4k. We had 3min left on optional. Would have been more if I had used my trainbuild, but currently I play with partgens. With drainbuild (roughly flowcaps+TR3 for mobs) sphere totally dead and so only the hull to shoot. Would have definetly been faster.
But point being, for advanced, Sci ships are enough to do it. You just have to think a bit out of the box.
Less tactical slots can always either be compensated (to a degree it allows every ship to exceed 10k) by either a2b (doffs are free) or torps+sci-abilities (obviously for sciships only). Now the phantom-trait gives even handicapped cruisers a chance to get by without a2b, though that isnt for free.
Are you kidding me? If its a cruiser, and you dont have access to phantom trait, go a2b. You get technicians in BTran. So long you dont have them, play classic damage control engineer-build ...
...
...torps+sci-abilities (obviously for sciships only). Now the phantom-trait gives even handicapped cruisers a chance to get by without a2b, though that isnt for free.
But seriously, at least consider to l2p...
Dude, excellent info, but you should cut the leet attitude, it doesn't help or add to anything. You obviously know a ton about the game, but I think your nuts if you think those ships would work great in this brave new world. So what if they can tractor repel something, it doesn't mean TRIBBLE if they can't kill it.
If things were working well the ques would be full of people, and people would be raving about how much more fun things are.
But it's exactly the opposite, except for a couple overplayed ques, it's a GD wasteland out there. Good luck getting omega marks these days, what is it 9k or something needed for the gear?
It's frightening to me (because I actually like this game) and I'll bet it's frightening to many others (maybe you too) because my $$ spending on the game went through the floor, and I hear the same thing from other people too. Not out of any sort of BS revenge thing but because we are simply not motivated. And what's worse is I haven't seen any hint whatsoever that they think this is worth attention.
I'm not a Science guy, but the advice givers in this thread appear to be doing alright. Looks like you have to not be in the tactical mindset, and actually crank up the Part Gens skill to 400.
-Ok...let's test this. Send me a private message and I will give you my in game name so you can transfer a million EC every time you lose. That should be a blast for you.
You're right, that wouldn't be fun. I really don't see what kind of point you could be making with a comment like that.
But again, I have been talking Advanced. Keep your Elite the way it is.
As have I. Read back in the thread - I mentioned that my builds aren't ready for Elite-level play yet. I spend most of my time in Advanced queues in space, so that's where my perspective is coming from. And my perspective remains that I have no problem with the occasional queue failure, and don't expect to be rewarded for said failure.
It's frightening to me (because I actually like this game) and I'll bet it's frightening to many others (maybe you too) because my $$ spending on the game went through the floor, and I hear the same thing from other people too. Not out of any sort of BS revenge thing but because we are simply not motivated. And what's worse is I haven't seen any hint whatsoever that they think this is worth attention.
I read / heard a lot of players worried about their investments prior to DR, but much less after. With the gear and ship upgrade systems, all it's taking is time to adjust to the new difficulty (that is, unless you're specifically buying new T6 ships, or speeding up the upgrade requirements with ZEN-to-dilithium conversions and other C-Store purchases). None of my ships are being left behind as a result of DR's difficulty change - even my freebie Ambassador, which is locked at T5 and can't be upgraded, is still more than capable of end-game play.
For sure, the goalposts were moved on the players, but that comes with a level cap increase. It'll just take time for players to level up, get the specializations, etc. Nothing, at least as far as I've felt, has been really lost since the update.
I do have to agree on one point, getting 10 marks for losing is stupid. This is war, not kindergarten, you shouldn't get brownie points for trying. You fail a mission you should be happy to get home with your ship and your body in one piece.
Very, very well put. Agreed
I think the main point of frustration for players is that, for the first time in years, things have gotten more difficult. It will take time for the playerbase to adapt, but it will happen. Players who have gotten used to their builds being plenty good for the old queues are having to put in more work. And all players - myself included - are having to level up and earn the new goodies. This will all take time, and it won't be instantaneous.
As the weeks pass, the 'average player' will be better. We all just need to put in some time, adjust our builds, and play the game. Demanding that Advanced be made easier by reducing fail conditions, or that rewards be increased for Normal-level and/or queue fails, is in part about players wanting all of the new things right away. That isn't how an MMO should be designed. Only the people who were top-dogs prior to DR (very much not a group I could include myself in) should be able to adjust with minimal time and effort. The rest of us will need to push ourselves to get that little bit better, with time.
I've read this thread with some interest, especially from those who think this mess is actually a good thing. Learn to play is the old refrain brought back for another round. Yet this thinking doesn't address the real issue at hand: pugs and queues. For most people, this is how they interact with the missions. And it is utterly broken.
I went back to advanced yesterday, after finishing upgrading my best ship to mk 14 epic and ultra rare. My build is compatible with those I've read online from people here assuring that this is enough for advanced even with gear much worse than mine. I solo'd the first 2 spheres in ISA easy enough. I went to help with the generators, and noticed someone was shooting the transformer even though all the generators were still up. Sure enough we failed, though long enough into the mission to feel like a bummer. The moral of this story is that no matter how well you're equipped, how well you've learned to play, you are still only one of five random people. Unless someone here is suggesting that ISA is soloable and that we should have people carried through the mission by those who can, the queue for advanced is broken.
The mission is doable with a team of people who know what they're doing with decent equipment. But the failure option just makes it a poor choice of play when you're are quite likely to fail due to not having five people who can do it. I will not spend my limited time losing and not getting rewards due to the broken system. And people agree with me. Look at the queues for Conduit. Very few people play on advanced now. Almost none on Borg Disconnected. Conduit elite used to have many people playing it; now I see five people in the whole queue. This is a direct result of poor design choices made by our dev team. Trying to excuse it or promote this poor decision is just hurting the game and the majority of players.
So now I can vaporize anything in normal mode but still can't play advanced. Yeah, this has been a rousing success.
I used to be Shakkar with thousands of posts. My very identity was stolen from me so now I am originalshakkar, the original.
Dude, excellent info, but you should cut the leet attitude, it doesn't help or add to anything. You obviously know a ton about the game, but I think your nuts if you think those ships would work great in this brave new world
I might work at my attitude if I wouldnt have to read such nonsense like your second sentence. Sure you can with little investment do much with free stuff. This game isnt p2w, but l2p. Sure, stuffing money in the game helps, but its like polynominal equations. Money would be linear, while l2p would be at least cubic.
Seriously, if my makeshift-scyer can pug with 12k, those two ship can do over 10k too. And for the starter you can do 6-7k plus CC the hell out of it, and dont forget this is a teameffort, not singleplayer.
The problem is, that the game itself doesnt teach anything, nor does it redirect to real guides or builds. If it would, the DR-Difficulty would have been implemented with LoR and the queues were soaring with players.
I also follow this discussion and really like the fact that peeps here are trying to give advice about how to get good dps for free n stuff or hoping that the average player will get better in time. Lol, maybe but maybe not.
For as long as there are queues you are likely to end up in an average team consisting of:
- One DPS King testing his latest build
- One none DPS minded veteran on a more or less effective build but who knows what hes doing.
- One casual who brings an average perhaps undergeared build and is there for the fun pew pew.
- One player who brings in a new toon and can only contribute far below his capabilities and is just there for the grind.
- One totally new player not knowing whats going on and jumping on the first chance to mess things up.
Switch one or two but that constellation is not going to change ever. The way the old elite were designed those teams were able to do just fine, perhaps at the cost of an optional, but everybody was happy.
But now?
The entire team plays against each other because of the way the fail criteria are designed. DPS timers in the background and one direct mistake fails in front of you.
There is hardly any teamwork involved and hardly any challenge because it just depends on how many of a kind from above you end up in your latest queue.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Yep, been done. You need to be able to do about 35-40k DPS and 6k H/S PPS minimum, but it can be done. I cannot be bothered to do it mind, but I do know how to.
Blast initial Cube + Spheres, go right side, nail Cube, ~10% or less on each gen (as long as you do not kill it) once all four gens are done take all 4 out at once, nail transformer as hard as you can, move to left side, repeat, nail Gateway, back to right side to take out the Tac Cube.
Or, if you can take Gate and Tac Cube at once, go left first, right second.
So are you saying 'advanced' should be completable by a team of players who have no idea what they're doing? How is that advanced in any way?
Yes, it should be completable. That means optionals that are optional. We had this, just a few weeks ago and they called it elite. That's all I want.
It's advanced and not elite because it is more difficult, with extra ships with more hp. That is one way it is advanced.
The queues show this problem. Conduit went from over a hundred people on elite to five on advanced.
The queues are how most people play these missions. That means pugs, and that means pugs need to be able to complete or the whole thing is a waste of resources. If they build it, and they will not come, they did something wrong.
Elite is the version you want.
I used to be Shakkar with thousands of posts. My very identity was stolen from me so now I am originalshakkar, the original.
Yes, it should be completable. That means optionals that are optional. We had this, just a few weeks ago and they called it elite. That's all I want.
It's advanced and not elite because it is more difficult, with extra ships with more hp. That is one way it is advanced.
The queues show this problem. Conduit went from over a hundred people on elite to five on advanced.
The queues are how most people play these missions. That means pugs, and that means pugs need to be able to complete or the whole thing is a waste of resources. If they build it, and they will not come, they did something wrong.
Elite is the version you want.
But...
advanced
adˈvɑːnst/Submit adjective
far on or ahead in development or progress.
I would say that understanding the objective of something is a 'basic' requirement, but you're saying that people who don't know what to do should be able to do advanced?
People failed the old Elite? Even queue groups were ignoring the 10% method in ISE and not failing anymore.
My newbie buddy grinded ISE in his undergeared and poorly built free Star Cruiser and never saw a fail. When I took him along in a pre-made group, he parsed at around 5k. Not bad for somebody who insisted on taking two copies of A2SIF because according to him, the 15s cooldown was too long. :rolleyes:
He also wouldn't bind anything. Even after taking things like EPtW at my suggestion, he clicks. He'd click EPtW before he clicked FAW. He'd click EPtS when he was being shot at. I have no idea how he did alright like that.
The start of this thread is the OP complaining about how a PUG broke up because of server lag. If everyone was 'advanced players' you would tried the mission again.
The PUGger that left early is wrong. The fact that the OP threw themselves back in the fire without back up was wrong as well.
The fail was because of a disconnect that was not intended. So do the mission again and not get disconnected or fix your internet connection.
Advanced should be as difficult as Old Elite. Elite should be where we separate the men from the boys. There should be fail conditions for most of the Advanced STFs like letting I.K.S. Kang be destroyed in The Cure Found or letting 10 probes get through the vortex in Khitomer Vortex, but optionals should be optional for Advanced.
Exactly. Players need Advanced to be achievable without major tech upgrade and without tons of rep gear, because they need to beat Advanced to get the materials for the upgrades and the neurals for rep gear to then beat Elite. Or have the normal ones changed to give out those rewards.
Exactly. Players need Advanced to be achievable without major tech upgrade and without tons of rep gear, because they need to beat Advanced to get the materials for the upgrades and the neurals for rep gear to then beat Elite. Or have the normal ones changed to give out those rewards.
You can do an ASTF capable build from mission reward and loot drop gear, you do not need tech upgrades or rep stuff.
I think the problem is not so much that they don't know what they are doing. But when a level 50 player enters a advance stf he is scaled to level 60 (which shouldn't scale to 60 in the first place not a level 60 content). The advance queues unlock at 50 but scale you to level 60 why?
So that level 50 player might be strong at 50 but scaled to 60 makes him a weak player in my eyes. The advance should not scale to level 60. The only stuff to scale to 60 should be elite content. That is why elite unlocks at level 60 not 50.
I would say that understanding the objective of something is a 'basic' requirement, but you're saying that people who don't know what to do should be able to do advanced?
They were elite a few weeks ago. Pull the definition for "elite" off da internets.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I have read large parts of the thread and I think the problem lies within the players. Players are nonlogical beings, however a player has to go to an advance queue from time to time to get an impression how well he is doing. This said, queues have to fail from time to time.
And then there are the kids, the greatest problem in any mmo game. People just jumping in whatever game they think they are cool with. From World of Tanks to SWToR, those players are the problem, ruining everybodys fun. Just because they have no clue what they are doing, but they think they are great. And the game mechanics have to deal with those people. The problem is not that you can't tell them what to do, the problem is, they won't listen. They don't care. No matter how often you try. A solution would be a winrate cap for queus. You have to win say >80% of your normal queue matches to get to advanced. Of course it has drawbacks. It sets back people knowing what they are doing. But for the greater good, there a far more bad players than good players who just started the game.
So yes, it's the games fault that it can't handle the players fault.
It really should be simple, something along these lines would keep everyone happy:
Normal
Basic objectives and no optionals. All enemies are scaled accordingly with what a newbie Lvl. 50 player could be expected to fight. Single "boss" level enemy to present more challenge in later stages of STF.
Rewards at minimum but allow for some extra rewards such as BNP's to be rewarded at random to select players to allow newbies a chance to progress with rep gear etc.
Advanced
Primary objectives as with Normal but now added optional objectives which if completed give extra rewards at the end of the mission.
Added timer on the whole mission, a reasonable length of time to allow completion of all objectives by a pug group (usually 15 mins is adequate, any longer and people loose interest).
NPCs have higher HPs, will spawn faster or will be other a higher standard than on normal.
Some level of understanding of the basic mission requirements are required to be successful.
Rewards are higher with guarantee of items such as BNPs and rare crafting materials is small numbers.
Elite
Primary objectives as above. Optionals are now mandatory as well to not fail the mission and these could be randomly selected from a set list - nobody know what's coming.
Time limit probably reduced as well.
NPCs have much higher HPs, spawn in much bigger numbers and will use high level powers and abilities throughout the mission. The exact NPCs that spawn should have some degree of randomness to increase difficulty (imagine KSE with spheres that shoot back heading for the vortex not hapless probes.
Teamwork and clear understanding of the mission required or you will fail. Pugs probably will fail this unless they are all highly skilled.
To be able to successfully combat the NPCs in this type of mission you need the right kit and more importantly you need to know more than just spamming abilities.
This level of difficulty sorts the men from the boys.
Players need Advanced to be achievable without major tech upgrade and without tons of rep gear, because they need to beat Advanced to get the materials for the upgrades and the neurals for rep gear to then beat Elite.
The entire premise of your post is wrong. Advanced is achievable without tech upgrades or rep gear. You do not need BNPs/APCs to get the best gear, nor do most of the rep gear need BNPs/APCs.
It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them. Blaming failure on not having BNP/APC required gear is a sad and transparent attempt to absolve unskilled and uninformed players of responsibility.
That's not necessarily on you, but the members of your team. You could be a perfectly competent +10k with no rep or Fleet gear (which is easily attainable with a modicum of knowledge and skill), but if the rest of your team decked out in maxed out pre-DR gear (Mk XII URs, rep sets, Lobi toys) still only pull 5k each, at 30k DPS the team will fail without 10% or some very impressive crowd control. Which of course would require knowledge and skill that said team members are lacking.
They were Elite a few years ago, a few weeks ago they were so easy shuttles and T1s could do them.
The game defined the people and missions as elite just last month.
It's the drastic shift from being called elite to now being called failure which has killed the queues. And which I think will kill the game sometime this spring if not changed.
That would make me sad.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
So, I just pugged it with a Sciship, 2 gw and a tbr on board, something every lower dps-sci-ship is capable of mounting. Mainweapon were torps.
I pugged ISA and KASA, in both we did the optionals and especially in ISA being a Sciship came in handy. Those 3 in the ISA-log with <4k should not be allowed to complete an advanced mission, unfortunately I had to pull them through (CC the mobs for "eternity") to proof a point.
Technically, no one did 10k, the sciship (as mentioned in another post a makeshift-scryer, which I need to level) saved the day and unfortunately won against 2 escorts and 2 cruisers. With torps...
What shall I say, the numbers for both otherside-guys are of course to low (map to big), the numbers from myside are pretty much correct.
Again, we beat optional, we didnt have any 10k player with us (technically). I also had only to take the first left probes, then I took on the transformers, cubes and spheres spawning, as myside2 was not capable of doint that. At least he was able to destroy all probes (with 3.3k and a bit GW).
The only point valid of those whining about advanced being to hard is that the rewards are to low. Raise the rewards, leave everything else how it is, and it is fine. You dont need high dps to finish, you dont even need it to complete optionals for some mission.
The game defined the people and missions as elite just last month.
It's the drastic shift from being called elite to now being called failure which has killed the queues. And which I think will kill the game sometime this spring if not changed.
That would make me sad.
Well, many ppl call themselves elite, now they know where they belong.
The game defined the people and missions as elite just last month.
It's the drastic shift from being called elite to now being called failure which has killed the queues. And which I think will kill the game sometime this spring if not changed.
That would make me sad.
Nothing that can be beaten by a T1 ship can be called Elite.
It will pick back up, players will improve and by spring we will all be back to merrily completing ASTFs like they were Pre-DR ESTFs. Because they are - all DR altered fundamentally is DPS required to do it.
The game defined the people and missions as elite just last month.
It's the drastic shift from being called elite to now being called failure which has killed the queues. And which I think will kill the game sometime this spring if not changed.
That would make me sad.
So this goes back to one of my earlier points, that players are a little concerned with not being top-dogs anymore. In several of the dev blogs on this topic, Cryptic said that the old Elite had become far too easy - it didn't fit the definition of "elite" anymore. So the new Elite more suits that full-end-game state. Players need to become better - not just the self-appointed leaders of the queue group, but the entire pug.
Slowly, I've noticed the pug become better over the last few weeks, as players are adjusting. I basically only pug, or go into a pug with a one or two fleetmates pre-teamed. Even in a pure pug, I am seeing a big increase in the success rate of Advanced queues. This is all a temporary problem, and will fix itself as players either a) adjust and gear up for the new difficulty, or b) learn the hard way that they're playing above their level of capability.
Advanced, as has been pointed out, requires a knowledge of what to do and how to play. See this specific dev blog on the subject. Quote from the blog:
We hope you were paying attention during your playthroughs of Normal before jumping into Advanced. Beginning with the release of Delta Rising, failure to complete these formerly optional objectives will result in the immediate failure of the mission. Upon failure, you will receive a portion of the rewards that you would have received for completing the mission, so you still are rewarded for your time spent in the event.
This is how Advanced was intended to play. Players should not be jumping up a difficulty level in queues until they are properly geared, and understand the objectives. I say that, placing myself in that group - I will not allow myself into Elite, until I can properly play Elite.
Well, many ppl call themselves elite, now they know where they belong.
I snipped the self serving stuff that didn't address the issue, and left this elitist TRIBBLE that is at the heart of your problem. You actually think it is a problem that players don't know what a shlub they are and should be more aware of what a TRIBBLE player they are. I do believe you believe this. So the problem in this case is you; wanting people to lose over and over until spring (your fellow traveller says).
The problem that you didn't solve or address is even though you succeeded with a sub par group that the rest of us will too. Random people generate random results. You are convinced this level is right but I don't. One of us is correct. That person is me.
I used to be Shakkar with thousands of posts. My very identity was stolen from me so now I am originalshakkar, the original.
I am on at the same time every single day for almost 3 years. I have never ever seen anything like that.
At this rate I look for a massive cash grab in January/February. Then an announcement after the anniversary that there will be no future content added to the game. Staff all diverted to other projects. Maybe it can continue for 6 months to a year after that before the license gets pulled.
I have been an absolute cheerleader for the game and indeed for cryptic for a long time. And this is the first time that I am concerned. I doubt there will ever be another Trek mmo so I really want this one to last.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Comments
Ditto! there's plenty of free gear that is 'good enough'.
I've been experimenting with my sci toon lately, and although a long way off from being happy, I do more dps with tractor beam repulsers than with 6 beam arrays now
Are you kidding me? If its a cruiser, and you dont have access to phantom trait, go a2b. You get technicians in BTran. So long you dont have them, play classic damage control engineer-build without Attackpatterns (faw and such is in those cases more important), as DCEs can easily obtained by doffing engineering, which is one of the easiest to max out (many high cxp-missions), and with t3 you already got 2 blue ones (1 from ferra, 1 from replicator). The lv40 assault is a prime example for this.
But what you posted is even easier. The cruisers have limited options -they can get into trouble, at least on unexperienced players-, but sci ships? They are versatile. Put some torps on it, get some projectile doffs (1 you get form nimbus with leveling, the others from military doffing, also fast and easily level-able), that way you can neglect weapon power. For the cheap build get a photon-torp (many missions reward them, rapidfiring transphasic is also good), the breen-cluster-torp (episode) and hapeng-torp (mission/doffing depending on faction). Max power to aux and shield, neglect engines and weapons. Add some TT and torpabilities. And now you have many, many sci-abilities, normally enough for 2 TSS, 2 HE, 2 GW. Usually you can even throw a TBR in.
Later one would use rom hyper, breen cluster (it simply rocks) and gravimetric/neutronic/bio-torp.
Now comes the big point of the sciships: if you cant dps them out of the universe, you can simply stall them for eternity. Probeduty in a sciship shouldnt be a problem. And a single cube knocking on you shouldnt be a problem either. Play "where angels fear to thread" and you get a good anti-borg shield. Hell, you could even go and add some flowcaps and a TR3 on sciships and deactivate the entire probespawn, so you dont even have to trouble yourself with their shields.
Seriously,as long as its just a timer for optional (like ISA and I think kase too) its very easy with a sciship to do. Might not be fast, but you will finish it. I had a isa today were my 11k designstudy-scyer (I need the trait^^) was the best ship, the next one had 7k, and the worst 4k. We had 3min left on optional. Would have been more if I had used my trainbuild, but currently I play with partgens. With drainbuild (roughly flowcaps+TR3 for mobs) sphere totally dead and so only the hull to shoot. Would have definetly been faster.
But point being, for advanced, Sci ships are enough to do it. You just have to think a bit out of the box.
Less tactical slots can always either be compensated (to a degree it allows every ship to exceed 10k) by either a2b (doffs are free) or torps+sci-abilities (obviously for sciships only). Now the phantom-trait gives even handicapped cruisers a chance to get by without a2b, though that isnt for free.
But seriously, at least consider to l2p...
Dude, excellent info, but you should cut the leet attitude, it doesn't help or add to anything. You obviously know a ton about the game, but I think your nuts if you think those ships would work great in this brave new world. So what if they can tractor repel something, it doesn't mean TRIBBLE if they can't kill it.
If things were working well the ques would be full of people, and people would be raving about how much more fun things are.
But it's exactly the opposite, except for a couple overplayed ques, it's a GD wasteland out there. Good luck getting omega marks these days, what is it 9k or something needed for the gear?
It's frightening to me (because I actually like this game) and I'll bet it's frightening to many others (maybe you too) because my $$ spending on the game went through the floor, and I hear the same thing from other people too. Not out of any sort of BS revenge thing but because we are simply not motivated. And what's worse is I haven't seen any hint whatsoever that they think this is worth attention.
great info link!!!
You're right, that wouldn't be fun. I really don't see what kind of point you could be making with a comment like that.
As have I. Read back in the thread - I mentioned that my builds aren't ready for Elite-level play yet. I spend most of my time in Advanced queues in space, so that's where my perspective is coming from. And my perspective remains that I have no problem with the occasional queue failure, and don't expect to be rewarded for said failure.
I read / heard a lot of players worried about their investments prior to DR, but much less after. With the gear and ship upgrade systems, all it's taking is time to adjust to the new difficulty (that is, unless you're specifically buying new T6 ships, or speeding up the upgrade requirements with ZEN-to-dilithium conversions and other C-Store purchases). None of my ships are being left behind as a result of DR's difficulty change - even my freebie Ambassador, which is locked at T5 and can't be upgraded, is still more than capable of end-game play.
For sure, the goalposts were moved on the players, but that comes with a level cap increase. It'll just take time for players to level up, get the specializations, etc. Nothing, at least as far as I've felt, has been really lost since the update.
Very, very well put. Agreed
I think the main point of frustration for players is that, for the first time in years, things have gotten more difficult. It will take time for the playerbase to adapt, but it will happen. Players who have gotten used to their builds being plenty good for the old queues are having to put in more work. And all players - myself included - are having to level up and earn the new goodies. This will all take time, and it won't be instantaneous.
As the weeks pass, the 'average player' will be better. We all just need to put in some time, adjust our builds, and play the game. Demanding that Advanced be made easier by reducing fail conditions, or that rewards be increased for Normal-level and/or queue fails, is in part about players wanting all of the new things right away. That isn't how an MMO should be designed. Only the people who were top-dogs prior to DR (very much not a group I could include myself in) should be able to adjust with minimal time and effort. The rest of us will need to push ourselves to get that little bit better, with time.
I went back to advanced yesterday, after finishing upgrading my best ship to mk 14 epic and ultra rare. My build is compatible with those I've read online from people here assuring that this is enough for advanced even with gear much worse than mine. I solo'd the first 2 spheres in ISA easy enough. I went to help with the generators, and noticed someone was shooting the transformer even though all the generators were still up. Sure enough we failed, though long enough into the mission to feel like a bummer. The moral of this story is that no matter how well you're equipped, how well you've learned to play, you are still only one of five random people. Unless someone here is suggesting that ISA is soloable and that we should have people carried through the mission by those who can, the queue for advanced is broken.
The mission is doable with a team of people who know what they're doing with decent equipment. But the failure option just makes it a poor choice of play when you're are quite likely to fail due to not having five people who can do it. I will not spend my limited time losing and not getting rewards due to the broken system. And people agree with me. Look at the queues for Conduit. Very few people play on advanced now. Almost none on Borg Disconnected. Conduit elite used to have many people playing it; now I see five people in the whole queue. This is a direct result of poor design choices made by our dev team. Trying to excuse it or promote this poor decision is just hurting the game and the majority of players.
So now I can vaporize anything in normal mode but still can't play advanced. Yeah, this has been a rousing success.
I might work at my attitude if I wouldnt have to read such nonsense like your second sentence. Sure you can with little investment do much with free stuff. This game isnt p2w, but l2p. Sure, stuffing money in the game helps, but its like polynominal equations. Money would be linear, while l2p would be at least cubic.
Seriously, if my makeshift-scyer can pug with 12k, those two ship can do over 10k too. And for the starter you can do 6-7k plus CC the hell out of it, and dont forget this is a teameffort, not singleplayer.
The problem is, that the game itself doesnt teach anything, nor does it redirect to real guides or builds. If it would, the DR-Difficulty would have been implemented with LoR and the queues were soaring with players.
Actually...
For as long as there are queues you are likely to end up in an average team consisting of:
- One DPS King testing his latest build
- One none DPS minded veteran on a more or less effective build but who knows what hes doing.
- One casual who brings an average perhaps undergeared build and is there for the fun pew pew.
- One player who brings in a new toon and can only contribute far below his capabilities and is just there for the grind.
- One totally new player not knowing whats going on and jumping on the first chance to mess things up.
Switch one or two but that constellation is not going to change ever. The way the old elite were designed those teams were able to do just fine, perhaps at the cost of an optional, but everybody was happy.
But now?
The entire team plays against each other because of the way the fail criteria are designed. DPS timers in the background and one direct mistake fails in front of you.
There is hardly any teamwork involved and hardly any challenge because it just depends on how many of a kind from above you end up in your latest queue.
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Yep, been done. You need to be able to do about 35-40k DPS and 6k H/S PPS minimum, but it can be done. I cannot be bothered to do it mind, but I do know how to.
Blast initial Cube + Spheres, go right side, nail Cube, ~10% or less on each gen (as long as you do not kill it) once all four gens are done take all 4 out at once, nail transformer as hard as you can, move to left side, repeat, nail Gateway, back to right side to take out the Tac Cube.
Or, if you can take Gate and Tac Cube at once, go left first, right second.
So are you saying 'advanced' should be completable by a team of players who have no idea what they're doing? How is that advanced in any way?
Yes, it should be completable. That means optionals that are optional. We had this, just a few weeks ago and they called it elite. That's all I want.
It's advanced and not elite because it is more difficult, with extra ships with more hp. That is one way it is advanced.
The queues show this problem. Conduit went from over a hundred people on elite to five on advanced.
The queues are how most people play these missions. That means pugs, and that means pugs need to be able to complete or the whole thing is a waste of resources. If they build it, and they will not come, they did something wrong.
Elite is the version you want.
But...
I would say that understanding the objective of something is a 'basic' requirement, but you're saying that people who don't know what to do should be able to do advanced?
The way I see it those groups should fail the way they failed in old elite and not the way it is now.
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My newbie buddy grinded ISE in his undergeared and poorly built free Star Cruiser and never saw a fail. When I took him along in a pre-made group, he parsed at around 5k. Not bad for somebody who insisted on taking two copies of A2SIF because according to him, the 15s cooldown was too long. :rolleyes:
He also wouldn't bind anything. Even after taking things like EPtW at my suggestion, he clicks. He'd click EPtW before he clicked FAW. He'd click EPtS when he was being shot at. I have no idea how he did alright like that.
The PUGger that left early is wrong. The fact that the OP threw themselves back in the fire without back up was wrong as well.
The fail was because of a disconnect that was not intended. So do the mission again and not get disconnected or fix your internet connection.
Exactly. Players need Advanced to be achievable without major tech upgrade and without tons of rep gear, because they need to beat Advanced to get the materials for the upgrades and the neurals for rep gear to then beat Elite. Or have the normal ones changed to give out those rewards.
You can do an ASTF capable build from mission reward and loot drop gear, you do not need tech upgrades or rep stuff.
So that level 50 player might be strong at 50 but scaled to 60 makes him a weak player in my eyes. The advance should not scale to level 60. The only stuff to scale to 60 should be elite content. That is why elite unlocks at level 60 not 50.
They were elite a few weeks ago. Pull the definition for "elite" off da internets.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
They were Elite a few years ago, a few weeks ago they were so easy shuttles and T1s could do them.
And then there are the kids, the greatest problem in any mmo game. People just jumping in whatever game they think they are cool with. From World of Tanks to SWToR, those players are the problem, ruining everybodys fun. Just because they have no clue what they are doing, but they think they are great. And the game mechanics have to deal with those people. The problem is not that you can't tell them what to do, the problem is, they won't listen. They don't care. No matter how often you try. A solution would be a winrate cap for queus. You have to win say >80% of your normal queue matches to get to advanced. Of course it has drawbacks. It sets back people knowing what they are doing. But for the greater good, there a far more bad players than good players who just started the game.
So yes, it's the games fault that it can't handle the players fault.
Normal
Basic objectives and no optionals. All enemies are scaled accordingly with what a newbie Lvl. 50 player could be expected to fight. Single "boss" level enemy to present more challenge in later stages of STF.
Rewards at minimum but allow for some extra rewards such as BNP's to be rewarded at random to select players to allow newbies a chance to progress with rep gear etc.
Advanced
Primary objectives as with Normal but now added optional objectives which if completed give extra rewards at the end of the mission.
Added timer on the whole mission, a reasonable length of time to allow completion of all objectives by a pug group (usually 15 mins is adequate, any longer and people loose interest).
NPCs have higher HPs, will spawn faster or will be other a higher standard than on normal.
Some level of understanding of the basic mission requirements are required to be successful.
Rewards are higher with guarantee of items such as BNPs and rare crafting materials is small numbers.
Elite
Primary objectives as above. Optionals are now mandatory as well to not fail the mission and these could be randomly selected from a set list - nobody know what's coming.
Time limit probably reduced as well.
NPCs have much higher HPs, spawn in much bigger numbers and will use high level powers and abilities throughout the mission. The exact NPCs that spawn should have some degree of randomness to increase difficulty (imagine KSE with spheres that shoot back heading for the vortex not hapless probes.
Teamwork and clear understanding of the mission required or you will fail. Pugs probably will fail this unless they are all highly skilled.
To be able to successfully combat the NPCs in this type of mission you need the right kit and more importantly you need to know more than just spamming abilities.
This level of difficulty sorts the men from the boys.
The entire premise of your post is wrong. Advanced is achievable without tech upgrades or rep gear. You do not need BNPs/APCs to get the best gear, nor do most of the rep gear need BNPs/APCs.
It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them. Blaming failure on not having BNP/APC required gear is a sad and transparent attempt to absolve unskilled and uninformed players of responsibility.
That's not necessarily on you, but the members of your team. You could be a perfectly competent +10k with no rep or Fleet gear (which is easily attainable with a modicum of knowledge and skill), but if the rest of your team decked out in maxed out pre-DR gear (Mk XII URs, rep sets, Lobi toys) still only pull 5k each, at 30k DPS the team will fail without 10% or some very impressive crowd control. Which of course would require knowledge and skill that said team members are lacking.
The problem is entirely that these people don't know what they're doing.
These are exactly the same type of people who, back in the days of the 10% method because we didn't have enough DPS, would cause ISEs to fail.
For those who don't do sufficient DPS to blindly blast everything, we are back in those days. Even down to the 10% method being the way to win.
The game defined the people and missions as elite just last month.
It's the drastic shift from being called elite to now being called failure which has killed the queues. And which I think will kill the game sometime this spring if not changed.
That would make me sad.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I pugged ISA and KASA, in both we did the optionals and especially in ISA being a Sciship came in handy. Those 3 in the ISA-log with <4k should not be allowed to complete an advanced mission, unfortunately I had to pull them through (CC the mobs for "eternity") to proof a point.
CombatLogReaderInfected Space[17:41] Dmg(DPS)
Woodwhity 10.427.919(9.903)
OKOne 9.212.248(8.707)
Bad1 3.361.500(3.174)
Bad2 2.832.175(2.676)
Bad3 1.792.152(1.792)
Technically, no one did 10k, the sciship (as mentioned in another post a makeshift-scryer, which I need to level) saved the day and unfortunately won against 2 escorts and 2 cruisers. With torps...
CombatLogReaderKhitomer Space[20:21] Dmg(DPS)
Woodwhity 11.018.314(9.024)
Otherside1 6.705.543(5.496)
Myside1 4.690.319(3.844)
Otherside2 4.364.328(4.785)
Myside2 3.355.831 (3.355)
What shall I say, the numbers for both otherside-guys are of course to low (map to big), the numbers from myside are pretty much correct.
Again, we beat optional, we didnt have any 10k player with us (technically). I also had only to take the first left probes, then I took on the transformers, cubes and spheres spawning, as myside2 was not capable of doint that. At least he was able to destroy all probes (with 3.3k and a bit GW).
The only point valid of those whining about advanced being to hard is that the rewards are to low. Raise the rewards, leave everything else how it is, and it is fine. You dont need high dps to finish, you dont even need it to complete optionals for some mission.
Well, many ppl call themselves elite, now they know where they belong.
Nothing that can be beaten by a T1 ship can be called Elite.
It will pick back up, players will improve and by spring we will all be back to merrily completing ASTFs like they were Pre-DR ESTFs. Because they are - all DR altered fundamentally is DPS required to do it.
N00bs will (or at least should) always struggle.
So this goes back to one of my earlier points, that players are a little concerned with not being top-dogs anymore. In several of the dev blogs on this topic, Cryptic said that the old Elite had become far too easy - it didn't fit the definition of "elite" anymore. So the new Elite more suits that full-end-game state. Players need to become better - not just the self-appointed leaders of the queue group, but the entire pug.
Slowly, I've noticed the pug become better over the last few weeks, as players are adjusting. I basically only pug, or go into a pug with a one or two fleetmates pre-teamed. Even in a pure pug, I am seeing a big increase in the success rate of Advanced queues. This is all a temporary problem, and will fix itself as players either a) adjust and gear up for the new difficulty, or b) learn the hard way that they're playing above their level of capability.
Advanced, as has been pointed out, requires a knowledge of what to do and how to play. See this specific dev blog on the subject. Quote from the blog:
This is how Advanced was intended to play. Players should not be jumping up a difficulty level in queues until they are properly geared, and understand the objectives. I say that, placing myself in that group - I will not allow myself into Elite, until I can properly play Elite.
I snipped the self serving stuff that didn't address the issue, and left this elitist TRIBBLE that is at the heart of your problem. You actually think it is a problem that players don't know what a shlub they are and should be more aware of what a TRIBBLE player they are. I do believe you believe this. So the problem in this case is you; wanting people to lose over and over until spring (your fellow traveller says).
The problem that you didn't solve or address is even though you succeeded with a sub par group that the rest of us will too. Random people generate random results. You are convinced this level is right but I don't. One of us is correct. That person is me.
I logged on this morning at 6:30 am eastern.
There were 30 people playing mirror normal.
10 in CCA, 5 in ISA
ZERO in any other queue.
I am on at the same time every single day for almost 3 years. I have never ever seen anything like that.
At this rate I look for a massive cash grab in January/February. Then an announcement after the anniversary that there will be no future content added to the game. Staff all diverted to other projects. Maybe it can continue for 6 months to a year after that before the license gets pulled.
I have been an absolute cheerleader for the game and indeed for cryptic for a long time. And this is the first time that I am concerned. I doubt there will ever be another Trek mmo so I really want this one to last.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."