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So...Starfleet totally started the Dominion War
lordkhorak
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I was rewatching DS9, and when I watched "The Jem'Hadar" it became apparent that the Federation is pretty much entirely at fault for leading to the Dominion War.
In the episode a Jem'Hadar beams onto DS9 and basically tells them to F-off sending ships through the wormhole into their territory, and even colonising....like in the case of New Bajor. Now, yes, the Jem'Hadar slaughtering the colony is entirely needless and I wouldn't defend that, but what is the response Dax gives to this gruff but frankly reasonable demand that the Federation stop violating its territory via the wormhole?
"You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant."
Seriously? Seriously? Stop violating our territory, here's evidence of the colony we destroyed for this transgression, we've detained a couple people who went on ****ing holiday here like our territory is a work bonding trip.
The response is no, shove off, we'll explore where we want and we're sending our most heavily armed ship class on armed reconnaissance to determine if you're a threat. Because TRIBBLE you, if you're not we'll be able to impudently prance about your territory exploring without permission.
This is for one officer and some civilians. This is diplomacy time, open a dialogue. We need to resolve this peacefully because, like, they're telling us we're just dropping into their back yard uninvited and it's making them really angry. NOPE! Send the biggest starship possible! POKE THAT BEAR! POKE IT! POKE IT GOOD!
I feel that possibly we would not be cheering on the Federation as victims had they told the Klingon Empire they could file their objections up their own butts if Starfleet decided to 'explore' their way through their territory.
Basically, Federation impudence is the initial spark that allows the slide into the Dominion War. Had they decided to actually respect the territorial integrity of another sovereign nation, and close wormhole access, the Dominion would have zero capability to escalate the situation. Had the Federation gotten paranoid and decided the Dominion were clearly a threat....they could have mined the wormhole and now the Dominion wouldn't even be able to conduct espionage.
:P
DISCUSS! xD
In the episode a Jem'Hadar beams onto DS9 and basically tells them to F-off sending ships through the wormhole into their territory, and even colonising....like in the case of New Bajor. Now, yes, the Jem'Hadar slaughtering the colony is entirely needless and I wouldn't defend that, but what is the response Dax gives to this gruff but frankly reasonable demand that the Federation stop violating its territory via the wormhole?
"You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant."
Seriously? Seriously? Stop violating our territory, here's evidence of the colony we destroyed for this transgression, we've detained a couple people who went on ****ing holiday here like our territory is a work bonding trip.
The response is no, shove off, we'll explore where we want and we're sending our most heavily armed ship class on armed reconnaissance to determine if you're a threat. Because TRIBBLE you, if you're not we'll be able to impudently prance about your territory exploring without permission.
This is for one officer and some civilians. This is diplomacy time, open a dialogue. We need to resolve this peacefully because, like, they're telling us we're just dropping into their back yard uninvited and it's making them really angry. NOPE! Send the biggest starship possible! POKE THAT BEAR! POKE IT! POKE IT GOOD!
I feel that possibly we would not be cheering on the Federation as victims had they told the Klingon Empire they could file their objections up their own butts if Starfleet decided to 'explore' their way through their territory.
Basically, Federation impudence is the initial spark that allows the slide into the Dominion War. Had they decided to actually respect the territorial integrity of another sovereign nation, and close wormhole access, the Dominion would have zero capability to escalate the situation. Had the Federation gotten paranoid and decided the Dominion were clearly a threat....they could have mined the wormhole and now the Dominion wouldn't even be able to conduct espionage.
:P
DISCUSS! xD
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by lordkhorak on
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the ferengi were the first through the otherside who were interacting with the various trade partners and directly interfering, most of them probably connected directly to the dominion, to the dominion's imperialism background the ferengi were like the federation coming through the anomaly which is provocation enough, you also seem to be forgetting the bajoran colonies that were setup in the gamma quadrant, to the dominion all these alpha quadrant races were inferior and a quadrant filled with chaos must be brought to some measure of order, the federation were just one group the dominion were intent on defeating, it wasnt their main goal.
the Odyssey was a warning shot to the rest of the quadrant whih was heeded by the various powers about a dominion invasion anyway. the dominion got what they were looking for, the federation just happened to be the right target for the dominions uses at that moment.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
While the situation could certainly have been handled much better, remember Sisko did go on a diplomatic mission in the very next episode. Granted that could also have been handled better, but dont forget the dominon took them all hostage and experimented on them. The Founder's mistrust of Solids basically meant they would never have reached a mutual diplomatic solution.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
the very idea that starfleet's message of peace and diplomacy was at the muzzle of two torpedo bays and quad energy weapons banks is highly ironic.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
you missing the next segment which is cruicial for your context on the subject, that talak basically stated, "we know what your going to state, however we dont care and any further actions will result in war."
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I never said the Dominion was entirely innocent, especially because of needless things like this. However, the brutal manner of their rebuke to Federation incursions doesn't actually make it any less of a very certain rebuke.
Having just splattered New Bajor and delivered a message to stop violating their territory, the reason for Sisko being detained is....quite obvious.
The Klingons would likely do exactly the same. The Romulans explicitly would have; Tomalok wanted the hulk of the E-D to put on display.
Actually, Oddysey went through AFTER the warning had been given. The Jem'Hadar destroyed New Bajor, detained Sisko, and then went and told DS9, and by extension the Federation, that this was due to territorial incursion and not to continue using the wormhole.
The Odyssey was sent anyway on an armed reconnaissance mission instead of immediately attempting to deal diplomatically with the Dominion position. Even if you can't, you have zero intelligence. You don't send in a Galaxy class blind.
Harsh as it is, the reality is that Sisko should have been written off. Instead the completely blind 'rescue' mission killed an entire starship.
The length of time it took the Dominion to finally take action wouldn't actually be relevant; it wouldn't make the space any less theirs. Also, if the Dominion had *just* annexed it, you still have to deal with the fact that this area of space is now owned by another power. A big one. It is not 'dead space' and free for all any more. As vicious as the Dominion moves to prove this were, ultimately the response should be immediate cessation of wormhole transit and diplomatic talks. If anything, their vicious methods should make a ban on travel even more important, since that opposing power is clearly highly aggressive and you obviously don't want to further antagonise it...justified or not.
All of which happens after the Federation bumbles foolishly into giving them a casus belli for a cold war, AND only possible because the Federation had refused to close the wormhole. With zero traffic moving through it, the Dominion would find it literally impossible to perform any form of espionage....they wouldn't be able to get anywhere.
And the only overt Federation attempt at diplomacy was in the form of sending their most heavily armed warship barrelling cloaked across their territory uninvited.
When faced with a hostile power looking for excuses to conduct cold war operations, leading inevitably to an invasion, the Federation were quite happy to just keep giving them everything they wanted by being totally impudent fools.
Heeding the warning though, would have rendered the Dominion moves to create a war completely impotent. Their whole plan hinges on, in fact, knowing that the Federation would completely ignore them. If they hadn't, the Dominion would have been left scratching their heads. And like I said, a worried Federation could then just sling a minefield in front of their end and never worry about any of it again.
The Federation GIVES the Dominion everything it needs. Without any of it, the Dominion War just can't start.
Nor under cloak. Like I said, they tried, but it could have been handled better.
Personally, I think the Dominion were fully justified to demand the Federation keep out of their space. The Ferengi opened trade negotiations, they did it the right way. The Dominion wanted these invaders from the other side out of their space, and Starflet basically said We'll go where we want. I bet if it was the Dominon who discovered the wormhole and came through, exploring and colonising, Starfleet wouldn't have just said "Yo, so you're explorers? That's cool, come scout out our entire space."
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Here is the Federation, having just staved off the Borg... brought the Cardassians to a seemingly equatable peace... Things are decent with the Klingons, might even be a chance at making good with some other folks.
Here is the Dominion, we hate everybody equally. Won't say why, suck genetic-modified superstormtroopers. Now we have someone from the other end of who-knows-what claiming they come in peace and they've set up a colony without permission.
Neither side was in the mood to negotiate. The Federation twice sent armed warships into the Gamma Quad on "diplomatic missions." The Dominion chose to escalate things as hard as they could both times.
No one... sat back and said "Ok lets cool our collective **** and come to an agreement.... maybe we could explore the GQ over HERE away from your stuff... Or maybe we could come to a diplomatic accord and leave each other alone?" Naahh. Lets resort to blowing up star-systems, military coups, proxy wars, biological warfare and other dickish moves.
Almost like a THIRD PARTY was manipulating both sides, right? MAYBE IT WAS THE ICONIANS.
That's.....not a concern. The point of the detainment doesn't really have to be explained to the detained when you're sending a message to someone else.
It's rude, sure, and unpleasant for the detainees, but they're prisoners. You don't have to tell them ****.
What would even be the point?
"This is why you're detained."
"What can I do to help with this."
"Nothing. I just wasted my breath. You're just a guy we're holding now."
"Ho hum."
We know they do that kind of thing, like they did with the Obsidian order/Tal Shiar fleet.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Sisko legitimately didn't know what was going on, so had a diplomatic envoy (as in a Federation Diplomat, not the Odyssey or the Defiant) gone in, they might have been able to secure his release (or maybe just be executed as well) but by going through in heavily armed ships, Starfleet was daring the Dominion to respond, and the Dominion had the resources to give Starfleet a seriously bloodied nose...
Though of course the Federation should have halted all incursions of their own ships
The Federation were present in the Bajoran system at the request of the Bajoran government, they might have said "We can set up a nice minefield for you..." to which the Bajorans would've given them a thumbs up... :cool:
[Edit to add]
That is unless they decided to go all terrorist again in revenge for the New Bajor Colony... Which would've resulted in the Dominion sending a fleet through to bombard Bajor and exterminate the population...
FEDERATION: "We ain't helping you out if the Dominion plunders your butts for continuing to use the wormhole."
BAJOR: "I tell you what, it's more than good enough that the Prophets' giant temple mouth hole is there, thanks. We'll just close access."
Thats fair enough, just saying, while poeple are claiming they could have just shut it down, that the "Celestial temple" isn't theirs to claim is all
And lets face it those Kai's we see in the show aren't exactly bursting with common sense
The Gama end of the Wormhole WASN'T IN DOMINION SPACE.
In fact they didn't start reaching Dominion space until season 2, in fact part of Sisko's diplomatic mission in the Defiant involved trying to find their territory.
So how exactly does the Dominion have the authority to kick the Federation out of an entire quadrant of space exactly?
First: You actually can't say it wasn't in Dominion space, because you don't know. The Dominion had a very laissez faire attitude to the administration of their 'members', and generally left them to their business as long as they were loyal and not kicking up a fuss. The Jem'Hadar arrive when they need to squish stuff...like, say, all those people piling into their territory via the blue Space Bumhole and making fuss.
Second: The moment the Dominion says it's their space and press their rights as such, with military force, it's their space. You now deal with it as their space. THAT is their authority, and they are not kicking you out of 'an entire quadrant'. They are kicking you out of their territory. That your only access to their quadrant is via the Giant Blue Space Bumhole is irrelevant. Tough.
I have to agree with this, there was no way to know whose space was whose. On earth today, we have diplomatic treaties, hundreds of years of history, actual maps of political boundaries. The Star Trek universe is not so well-defined, with some star systems being technically within one's space, but not being members. For the dominion, their "space" is one of their control, not necessarily ownership. To the dominion, the wormhole may really be their space as far as their definition goes.
Were the Karemma part of the dominion? They certainly traded with them but kept their complete autonomy, so long as they did what was asked of them. So is Karemma in Dominion space? If so, merely trading with them could be considered "violating their territory."
In my opinion, the failure was partly the Dominion's who were too secretive to even let others know that their government existed, let alone who and where it represented. It was also partly the Federation's, in their refusal to see that the flag may already have been planted over the wormhole, even if no one was there to say so the moment they entered. The Ferengi did it best, trading with all those species, exploring new markets, yet (presumably) never firing a shot or losing a life.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
It comes down to this simple fact of international relations: you don't kowtow to imperialists unless you want even worse trouble later. By detaining Sisko and glassing New Bajor the Dominion committed direct, unprovoked acts of war against the Federation and its allies. If Starfleet had not reacted immediately and with force the Dominion would have seen them as weaklings. And the destruction of New Bajor demonstrated abundantly that they weren't interested in peaceful resolutions.
And let's not forget, the Founders see the entire galaxy as their territory, not just the segment of the Gamma Quadrant they actually exercise military control over. If the Federation hadn't continued exploring, it wouldn't have kept the war from happening. It just would've delayed it by a century or so. The Dominion already knew about the Alpha Quadrant superpowers and were preparing to fight them way later, at which juncture it probably would've begun on THEIR terms. As it was, continued Federation use of the wormhole provided valuable intelligence and forced the Founders to fight on the Alpha Quadrant's schedule.
Did the Federation make mistakes? Yes: they underestimated the scale of their opponent. And Jadzia's line was fatuous and off-point. But meeting imperialist violence with force was the correct solution.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
In Founder psychology, there is "us" - the Great Link, the ocean that becomes the drop that becomes the ocean - and "everything else." Some parts of the "everything else" might move, and even talk and pretend to think, but they're not really people... just solids, no better or different than animals really. The useful ones should be domesticated and the dangerous ones exterminated.
You could argue by antagonizing imperialists you're asking for trouble in the present.
The Dominion was speaking softly (Weyoun) and carrying a big stick (New Bajor). They were interested in peaceful relations -- of course those relations were clearly to be subservient to the Dominion.
You could say that about numerous alien governments in Star Trek. Thought crime is not a thing in interstellar politics. Just because an alien faction thinks this or that doesn't mean it gives you a motive to act against them when there are other options available.
To quote Senator Vreenak, "You make an interesting point. But it's still just speculation and theory."
You can't predict the future with accuracy. In that century of delayed war, the Federation could have performed many acts that could have resulted in a peace treaty or win the war with far less casualties and bloodshed.
Still just theory. Any numerous thing can happen between now and the future. And in the Star Trek franchise, there are all kinds of deus ex machina plot devices littered about to stop that war from ever occuring.
I see it more as meeting imperialist violence with imperialist violence. The thing with the Dominion is they were the dark side of the Federation. That was the entire point to the Dominion from a story perspective. Another coalition of alien governments who similarly are a superpower in their part of the galaxy, and are devoted to bringing other alien worlds into their fold and 'enlightening' them with their own version of what democracy is.
Their ideals and the Federation's ideals were simply incompatible with one another. The doctrines of both factions were one of hostility. Given a century or so in delayed war, for all we know Section 31 could have created and deployed the morphogenic virus and twisted their arm into a treaty without the loss of all those lives.
They aren't incapable of peace with the Federation. They just needed the right catalyst to resort to it as an option. And all that was needed is the most precious resource of all -- time.
My character Tsin'xing
And what the Federation has is 200+ years of experience dealing with violent imperialist cultures on its own doorstep: the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians, just to name a few. Picard may wish it was otherwise, but despite whatever Roddenberry had in mind the Star Trek universe doesn't run on idealism, it runs on a mix of realpolitik and enlightened self-interest just like real life does. And the practical, unfortunate fact of reality is that imperialists respect force first and foremost. The Federation is very much an anomaly among the franchise's power blocs in that it isn't interested in military conquest. Really, the only practical difference between the Dominion and the Romulan or Klingon Empires or pre-revolutionary Cardassia is that it's a lot bigger and can replace soldiers faster, and that its leaders are slightly more xenophobic than usual.
And what do we have in the very next episode? The Founders themselves telling us point-blank that they'd expected to meet the Federation in the middle of the next century. And hard evidence that they fear solids and wish to control them by any means necessary. And hard evidence that they do in fact have the military might to pull it off. Sisko et al. screwed up the schedule and changed the rules. Canon fact.
As for the "speak softly and carry a big stick" bit? The big stick came first and was in continuous use through the end of the series. They didn't try the diplomatic approach until several seasons in, and then only as a way to divide and conquer. Honestly, "speak softly and carry a big stick" speaks more to the Federation approach than the Dominion's. I'll see your Theodore Roosevelt and raise you Urdnot Grunt: "Offer a hand in friendship but arm the other."
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Yes, and decisions should be scaled to the severity and imminency of the evidence you suspect is genuine. War should be an option of last resort, but the Federation used it as the first.
Most of these cultures think like the Founders do and see themselves as the supreme species and see the rest of the galaxy as theirs to rule, and are willing to go to war over it.
And as of DS9 most of those species ended up being friendly with us.
Which is true. But they also should have a lasting respect. Section 31 ended the war in what some would call a dishonorable way simply as the means to an ends. We could have ended the Dominion War with diplomacy as an option, instead the Dominion and Federation engaged in a cold war not unlike the Romulans and Federation.
All because both imperialist powers were too desperate to win by any means necessary.
The Federation is interested in conquest by soft power. Financial (or rather resource) power is equally as powerful as any standing military, only in a different way. The Federation is able to sway others under their doctrine of freedom and democracy with the auspice of fellowship and equality.
Up until said member worlds don't like what decisions are made or go against Federation doctrine. And if they aren't interested in peace or diplomacy, then they're considered outsiders at best, and enemies at worst.
Originally the Dominion was supposed to mirror the Federation in the number of species it exhibited. The Domion was originally envisioned as being more than just Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and the Founders. But due to make-up and budgetary constraints (like so much else), and the positive reception of the Jem'Hadar, they had to condense the Dominion to those 3 species.
You could say the same for the Federation. Only when you have games like Star Trek Online (that doesn't have make-up budgets), can you truly see how diverse the Federation is. Otherwise, you could easily mistake the Federation as a humanistic empire with vassal states consisting of Vulcans, Betazoids, etc.
Without the real world make-up and special effects budget into play, the Federation is just as equally xenophobic as the Dominion. Everything in the Federation follows a human influence.
Fact. But also proof Sisko did not extend the olive branch as much as he could. He caught the Dominion off guard and instead of using it to his advantage, he resorted to the typical Starfleet command posturing and saber-rattling.
Which only antagonized them more. You have two imperialist factions who think they have enough firepower to enforce their own political doctrine, and both believe they're 'in the right'.
I don't know. I think diplomacy was used first in the episode "Rules of Acquisition". It's the first time the Dominion is ever mentioned, and it was the Ferengi who made contact with the Karemma over what is the most fundamental aspect of peaceful relations -- trade.