Most of these cultures think like the Founders do and see themselves as the supreme species and see the rest of the galaxy as theirs to rule, and are willing to go to war over it.
And as of DS9 most of those species ended up being friendly with us.
I don't know. I think diplomacy was used first in the episode "Rules of Acquisition". It's the first time the Dominion is ever mentioned, and it was the Ferengi who made contact with the Karemma over what is the most fundamental aspect of peaceful relations -- trade.
See, I always interpreted the Karemma as having acted without the knowledge or consent of the Dominion's central government, given how demonstrably xenophobic it is. You will notice that the central government's actions, i.e. blasting the hell out of any non-Dominion ship or installation they ran across, is kinda counter to trade relations.
Peaceful trade wasn't going to make for favorable diplomatic relations as long as the Founders had their manifest destiny thing going. At best it was an additional intelligence source.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It comes down to this simple fact of international relations: you don't kowtow to imperialists unless you want even worse trouble later. By detaining Sisko and glassing New Bajor the Dominion committed direct, unprovoked acts of war against the Federation and its allies. If Starfleet had not reacted immediately and with force the Dominion would have seen them as weaklings. And the destruction of New Bajor demonstrated abundantly that they weren't interested in peaceful resolutions.
That is not how international relations work in the slightest. With such lunatic logic NATO would currently be embroiled in a war with Russia because we "didn't kowtow to Imperialists". Reacting immediately with force under some idea that you shouldn't look like a 'weakling' means you invade damn near everything in sight. The Federation would have been in existential wars with the Klingon Empire, Romulans, Cardassians, and every belligerent species-of-the-week.
Such a policy would be the policy of the Terran Empire.
And let's not forget, the Founders see the entire galaxy as their territory, not just the segment of the Gamma Quadrant they actually exercise military control over. If the Federation hadn't continued exploring, it wouldn't have kept the war from happening. It just would've delayed it by a century or so. The Dominion already knew about the Alpha Quadrant superpowers and were preparing to fight them way later, at which juncture it probably would've begun on THEIR terms. As it was, continued Federation use of the wormhole provided valuable intelligence and forced the Founders to fight on the Alpha Quadrant's schedule.
None of which the Federation actually knew, and the real point is that by refusing to adhere to the violent request of the Dominion and responding in the belligerent manner you're arguing for, they allowed the war to occur. In fact, your idea of immediate retaliatory violence, not to be a 'weakling', gives the Dominion every single excuse it wants to get started on the warmongering.
By comparison, Starfleet deciding to maybe not just sling anything they please through the wormhole in an act of impudent arrogance, leaves the Dominion high and dry. They can't build up a series of perceived violations. They can't conduct the espionage required to give them conditions to gain a foothold, like with Cardassia (because they physically can't pass through the wormhole), and as a result an invasion via the wormhole alone would fail.
Did the Federation make mistakes? Yes: they underestimated the scale of their opponent. And Jadzia's line was fatuous and off-point. But meeting imperialist violence with force was the correct solution.
The mistake of, "Oooops, turns out the guys we tried to bully our way through to press our 'right' to explore are double hard b*****ds," is an excuse that is actually worse than the one the Dominion was using. The Dominion was rejecting Starfleet intrusion by claiming that coming through the wormhole was a violation of their territory. Starfleet counters this by saying....you totally can't stop us exploring, guys. And then basically invades said territory.
In the end, only our authorial omniscience allows us to see the Dominion are ultimately the bad guys with ulterior motives of trying to create conditions for an eventual invasion. On the ground, however, Starfleet is openly obstinate and belligerent to a situation they would never, ever have tried to pull on the Klingons, Romulans, or Cardassians, because they knew they'd get their face beat in by a peer opponent. They do, in fact, have gigantic Neutral Zones with said powers so neither side has to worry about getting their face beat in by a peer opponent over territorial disputes.
Do I think the Federation started the war? Yes I do, the blame lies at the feet of Ben Sisko, just as he is responsible for his own choice to fire WMDs into the atmosphere of a Cardassian planet.
That was Eddington. Sisko WMD'd a Maquis planet. And yes, that was absolutely criminal and done purely so the writers could make gratuitous Les Miz references. As far as I'm concerned, in my headcanon that episode falls squarely with "Threshold" in the "it never happened" column and they caught Eddington the old-fashioned way.
Even if the Founders had not known about Odo, or if they had been less driven to bring him (alone out of their 100 lost children) home at all costs, the war would have happened. Even if the Founders did not exist and the Dominion had been a more typical interstellar power, the war would have most likely happened due to Sisko's actions.
The war was going to happen regardless. The Founders were planning on it. Sisko screwed up their game by learning about them a hundred years too early.
He had already landed on a penal colony, and sabotaged it when he left.
If that's the episode where Kai Opaka died and then came back to life, you're misremembering. He left its defenses intact, he just distracted them long enough for himself, Julian, and Kira to escape.
A "sacred hunt" that was severely endangering his command. He was perfectly within his rights as a commanding officer to order his security teams to fire on hostile boarders.
Don't tell me you're part of the idiot "Starfleet's not a military WAAAAAHH!" crowd.
his crew nearly turned violent towards visitors due to a miscommunication about a game,
And you would have done what in his place, exactly? The Wadi didn't ask for their consent nor explain that none of it was actually real or lethal.
Go watch the series again, and pay closer attention this time.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If your opening act is the total destruction of a colony full of innocent civilians, without warning, you're sending a pretty strong signal that you're not in the least interested in negotiation in any manner whatsoever.
Note that even when the planet of American Indians had to be vacated in the DMZ, the Cardassian Union gave them notice. Heck, when the Sheliak Corporate moved to enforce their own treaty terms, they provided the invasive colony with 48 hours' notice. The Dominion? There's someone on one of our worlds, who obviously don't know who we are - kill them!!
That is not how international relations work in the slightest. With such lunatic logic NATO would currently be embroiled in a war with Russia because we "didn't kowtow to Imperialists".
I'll give you a hint: Militaries don't exist just to actively exert force. Most of the time the threat is all you need. It's similar to mutually assured destruction: Neither Russia nor NATO nor the EU is willing to directly go to war because they know neither of them is going to come off looking pretty (i.e. going to war over Crimea and Ukraine isn't worth it), which means the bargaining table is still open. Same with the Federation and its neighbors as of 2370 (Klingons excluded because the Feds have had an actual alliance with them since 2293). Contrast that with, this is the first time the Dominion and Federation have actually come into contact. Neither side knows for certain what the other is capable of.
Reacting immediately with force under some idea that you shouldn't look like a 'weakling' means you invade damn near everything in sight. The Federation would have been in existential wars with the Klingon Empire, Romulans, Cardassians, and every belligerent species-of-the-week.
Such a policy would be the policy of the Terran Empire.
Or the policy of somebody who believes in the "broken windows" theory. You've got a building with a broken window that's not getting fixed. People then feel free to break the other windows because people are d**ks and obviously nobody cares enough. It's just as applicable to international relations as it is to law enforcement.
As I alluded in response to iconians, the detente of the Alpha Quadrant didn't happen overnight. The Federation has shot at and been shot at by literally every single one of its various neighbors, Ferengi included, at various points in the past.
None of which the Federation actually knew, and the real point is that by refusing to adhere to the violent request of the Dominion and responding in the belligerent manner you're arguing for, they allowed the war to occur. In fact, your idea of immediate retaliatory violence, not to be a 'weakling', gives the Dominion every single excuse it wants to get started on the warmongering.
They didn't need an excuse. That's my entire point. The Dominion deliberately targeted Federation and Federation-allied civilians for systematic extermination well before Starfleet made any overtly hostile moves at all. That's not technically genocide since it's governmental allegiance-based rather than racial or ethnic, but it's in the same category.
By comparison, Starfleet deciding to maybe not just sling anything they please through the wormhole in an act of impudent arrogance, leaves the Dominion high and dry. They can't build up a series of perceived violations.
Sure they can. Not like they need to be worried about how they look to their citizenry. Even if they do, they can just make s**t up.
They can't conduct the espionage required to give them conditions to gain a foothold, like with Cardassia (because they physically can't pass through the wormhole)
Can so. They're changelings. All they need is to leave a ship or two alive (notice they never said they had destroyed all the ships that were on their side of the wormhole) and replace the crew.
and as a result an invasion via the wormhole alone would fail.
It failed purely on strategic and tactical terms. It's a choke point that the Dominion must secure in order to have a beachhead, because Star Trek warp drives are too slow to make hoofing it practical. And the enemy controls the opposite side. By contrast, on the Dominion's schedule, a hundred years from now they wouldn't need the wormhole because they'd have worked their way to the Federation border the old-fashioned way. Just like in a theoretical scenario where we replace the Dominion with the Galactic Empire from Star Wars, the Empire can skip capturing Deep Space 9 entirely because their hyperdrives are fast enough to make trans-galactic travel happen in a practical amount of time. The choke point becomes irrelevant.
The mistake of, "Oooops, turns out the guys we tried to bully our way through to press our 'right' to explore are double hard b*****ds," is an excuse that is actually worse than the one the Dominion was using. The Dominion was rejecting Starfleet intrusion by claiming that coming through the wormhole was a violation of their territory. Starfleet counters this by saying....you totally can't stop us exploring, guys. And then basically invades said territory.
It wasn't the Dominion's territory. Occupancy is what counts, not wild-TRIBBLE territorial claims. If they'd had military bases and patrols going from day one it would be their territory, but the Federation and its allies got there first. As it was they simply claimed hegemony over the entire galaxy regardless of what the actual situation on the ground was.
In the end, only our authorial omniscience allows us to see the Dominion are ultimately the bad guys with ulterior motives of trying to create conditions for an eventual invasion. On the ground, however, Starfleet is openly obstinate and belligerent to a situation they would never, ever have tried to pull on the Klingons, Romulans, or Cardassians, because they knew they'd get their face beat in by a peer opponent. They do, in fact, have gigantic Neutral Zones with said powers so neither side has to worry about getting their face beat in by a peer opponent over territorial disputes.
And how did those Neutral Zones get set up? By peace treaties created after long and bloody wars.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Going into the Penal Colony, we have only his assumtion that he did not permanently damage the systems there, no follow up. Yes he assumes things went properly, and their plan was a temporary window kind of idea, but this is Trek where the freaking video games can kill you every other week (Holodecks), so an unanticipated malfunction is always possible.
Even if such a malfunction did happen, it wouldn't matter. The prisoners don't have any starships to get offworld with.
Moving on to the sacred hunt. The initial hostilities aside, after the hunter's commander had met with Sisko he agreed that for future hunts the wormhole would be off-limits, which could be interpreted as Dominion citizens respecting Federation Sovreignty.
Again, the Dominion did not have actual control over the wormhole and its surrounds until "The Jem'Hadar", regardless of what their wild-TRIBBLE claims were. There's a lot of fandom guessing but no actual evidence that the Hunters have any connection to the Dominion. All that happens there is that the Hunters agree to respect Federation and Bajoran sovereignty.
No on to the Wadi's game, what did Kirk's crew do during similar circumstances in Spectre of the Gun? The difference is, that was a test, and the Enterprise crew had been informed they were going to die, they still strove for a peaceful resolution. Now I will grant that the people dealing with the Wadi in that circumstance, Kira, Odo, Quark, were not Starfleet, but it could have been dealt with better.
Sisko and Kira were inside the game and didn't have any way to actually contact the Wadi. How the frak were they supposed to do anything about it? And Quark and Odo had no idea what was going on; as far as they could tell, four of the installation's senior staff officers had been frakking kidnapped. That's a hostile act no matter which way you slice it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
On the subject of territoriality, the system where the wormhole terminates (I believe the closest star was identified as Idran in Emissary) There were cryptic hints and references about the Dominion and Changelings prior to Sisko and Quark getting captured Deliverance-Style, so I take that as a sign that the system may indeed be part of Dominion Territory, but possibly in a more remote area, or even on their (The Dominion's) Outer Rim. When the warning was given to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, Starfleet should have listened, not gone sabre-rattling with the Odyssey and then the Defiant (especially not the Defiant) because that gave the Founders the proof they wanted that their loathing of solids had basis...
On the subject of territoriality, the system where the wormhole terminates (I believe the closest star was identified as Idran in Emissary) There were cryptic hints and references about the Dominion and Changelings prior to Sisko and Quark getting captured Deliverance-Style, so I take that as a sign that the system may indeed be part of Dominion Territory, but possibly in a more remote area, or even on their (The Dominion's) Outer Rim. When the warning was given to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, Starfleet should have listened, not gone sabre-rattling with the Odyssey and then the Defiant (especially not the Defiant) because that gave the Founders the proof they wanted that their loathing of solids had basis...
They didn't need proof. Per "The Search, Part II", the Dominion started conquering stars at least 2,000 years ago, when humanity was in the early Iron Age and the Vulcans only had sublight travel. They decided on their "conquer them so they don't kill us for being superior to them" modus operandi millennia before the Federation was even thought of.
EDIT: Besides which, two years the Feds had to TRIBBLE around in that area of space and they didn't encounter a single Dominion patrol? Starfleet patrols its own outer areas considerably more heavily. Food for thought.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
On the topic of the Ferengi and their trade efforts
This would never have been a basis for a long standing peace in my opinion.
The Dominion clearly possessed everything they needed to run an expansive Empire, anything they could want they could take, and from the background the tv series gives us the Dominion has had a lot of experience taking things they want.
Anybody attempting to trade with the Dominion is practically advertising their civilisations valuable resources for the Dominion to come along and subjugate their species, either peacefully like the Karemma, or to "pacify" them with Jem'Hadar shocktroops and claim that resource
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
They didn't need proof. Per "The Search, Part II", the Dominion started conquering stars at least 2,000 years ago, when humanity was in the early Iron Age and the Vulcans only had sublight travel. They decided on their "conquer them so they don't kill us for being superior to them" modus operandi millennia before the Federation was even thought of.
EDIT: Besides which, two years the Feds had to TRIBBLE around in that area of space and they didn't encounter a single Dominion patrol? Starfleet patrols its own outer areas considerably more heavily. Food for thought.
Equally, as the Dominion had been in power for 2000 years, (as well as using techniques like The Blight) they may not have patrolled as much as Starfleet might, because they felt secure in their powerbase (until Starfleet started nosing around...)
Equally, as the Dominion had been in power for 2000 years, (as well as using techniques like The Blight) they may not have patrolled as much as Starfleet might, because they felt secure in their powerbase (until Starfleet started nosing around...)
You can't mark a border in space. If you don't have ships in the air and/or shoes on the ground, or an internationally agreed-upon border like the DMZ or Neutral Zones, or even some kind of signal buoy that says "Yo, this space is ours, GTFO", you don't own it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
On the topic of the Ferengi and their trade efforts
This would never have been a basis for a long standing peace in my opinion.
Many long standing peace agreements have been founded on beneficial trade and commerce. If both parties are willing to make it happen, of course.
If both parties decide to be grandstanding blowhards who are too proud to humble themselves and make concessions, then no, you are correct. A long standing peace would likely not happen.
The Dominion clearly possessed everything they needed to run an expansive Empire, anything they could want they could take, and from the background the tv series gives us the Dominion has had a lot of experience taking things they want.
That's usually how it goes. But one of two parties in this theoretical scenario are new to the gamma quadrant. One of them are not.
Regardless of who thinks who owns the space on the other side of the wormhole, only the Dominion are familiar with the area. The Federation are the strangers in a strange new quadrant. The Dominion are not.
Anybody attempting to trade with the Dominion is practically advertising their civilisations valuable resources for the Dominion to come along and subjugate their species, either peacefully like the Karemma, or to "pacify" them with Jem'Hadar shocktroops and claim that resource
You could argue the same with Federation trade. Obey the Human-founded and Human-sponsored Federation charter, with their Human-dominated starships... or suffer economic hardship by refusing to participate, and when you do actually need help, watch Starfleet refuse to help you because of their flawed prime directive.
The difference between the Dominion and Federation is ideologies, but the structure of both factions are eerily similar.
Use Diplomacy to try to get what you want -- either through honest good intentions like Picard, or manipulative deception like Weyoun.
And hell, if that doesn't work... just fire some ray guns at people because hey, you're the Dominion/Federation. Who is capable of stopping you?
Something else that occurred to me just now: the Ferengi dealt with the Dosi before the Karemma in "Rules of Acquisition". The Dosi spoke of the Dominion as if they were somebody else outside of them, not their own superiors. Rather a strong indication that the Dominion's actual borders did not include the wormhole's surrounds until "The Jem'Hadar".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In the galactic neighborhood, the Federation were the newcomers to the Gamma Quadrant. Regardless of where the Dominion's borders actually are, the Gamma Quadrant is their turf.
It's been documented in Star Trek before that if a certain government faction or species wants the Federation to go take a long walk off a short cliff, the Federation generally honors their request.
I didn't hear Picard argue with the Paxans over where their borders actually extended to. He just knew they were a violent xenophobic race who wanted to destroy the Enterprise-D for finding their hidden planet.
So instead of beating his chest and telling them that the Paxans have no authority to tell them where they can and can't explore, he conceded when it became evident the Paxans could kill them all.
In the galactic neighborhood, the Federation were the newcomers to the Gamma Quadrant. Regardless of where the Dominion's borders actually are, the Gamma Quadrant is their turf.
It's been documented in Star Trek before that if a certain government faction or species wants the Federation to go take a long walk off a short cliff, the Federation generally honors their request.
I didn't hear Picard argue with the Paxans over where their borders actually extended to. He just knew they were a violent xenophobic race who wanted to destroy the Enterprise-D for finding their hidden planet.
So instead of beating his chest and telling them that the Paxans have no authority to tell them where they can and can't explore, he conceded when it became evident the Paxans could kill them all.
The Paxans didn't massacre minimum tens of thousands of civilians with no provocation. They merely ejected you from their space and erased your memory of their existence. No harm, no foul. EDIT: And they were content to keep to themselves. The Dominion are conquistadors.
If the Dominion ultimatum had come first the Federation might have actually honored the request. Instead it only came after the Dominion initiated hostilities. This cannot be stressed enough: the Dominion were the aggressors.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Hell, even the Metrons put up a warning buoy. The Dominion? They just kill you. No notice, no warning - you're in their space, even unknowingly, you have to die.
And again, I quote Hobbes: "It's hard to co-exist with things that want to kill you."
You could argue the same with Federation trade. Obey the Human-founded and Human-sponsored Federation charter, with their Human-dominated starships... or suffer economic hardship by refusing to participate, and when you do actually need help, watch Starfleet refuse to help you because of their flawed prime directive.
The difference between the Dominion and Federation is ideologies, but the structure of both factions are eerily similar.
Use Diplomacy to try to get what you want -- either through honest good intentions like Picard, or manipulative deception like Weyoun.
And hell, if that doesn't work... just fire some ray guns at people because hey, you're the Dominion/Federation. Who is capable of stopping you?
Thats not in question, the Federation are expansionist in their own right, but at least its inclusive with a chance of upward Mobility
The comment, that the "Federation is no more than a homo sapiens only club" is even on screen but the election of an Efrosian and a Grazerite UFP president at least confirm that Non-founding Member worlds have a possibility of putting forward a serious candidate for leadership
Such a possibility in the Dominion would be unthinkable, a conquered solid be elected leader ? Not a chance.
If you are a Solid and your not in sworn service to the Living Gods then your to be subjugated, without regard regard to your geographical or astronomical location
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
My conclusion tends to be that the Founders, while extremists, are pretty much correct. Solids are dicks.
Look, the Federation is run by and consists almost entirely of humans. I don't care if it has pointed ears or antennae or a paintjob. If it's an actor with makeup, it's a human, regardless of what you call it. End of story. You want me to take your aliens seriously? Design actual aliens. And the Federation's record with aliens is...less than stellar. I mean, I've already gone over this other places, really, with the Undine being one of the more egregious examples.
(Side note: you might be able to get away with rubber-forehead aliens if you made them actually act properly alien, but Trek is terrible at that too.)
But even with the Founders, it's hard to argue that they aren't justified. Remember, they sent out a hundred of their own to explore the galaxy. And what happened to the one that found itself in the hands of solids, hm? It was experimented on and basically tortured for years, before finally getting a job and being ostracized for the rest of its life, all pretty much because a: the nosejob-humans were too stupid to make sure that blob of gel isn't sentient before you start messing with it, and b: because humans in general have a horribly negative reaction to anything that doesn't look exactly like them, at least in Trek. Probably in real life too.
Now, I can't really lay the blame for the Federation being so aggressive toward the Dominion solely at the feet of this xenophobia, because they didn't really know what the Founders were until after much of the saber-rattling had already taken place. I'd have to check to be sure, but I don't think they had any real indication that they were dealing with aliens until the Link planet incident. Either way, though, their reaction was pretty mind-numbingly stupid. Surrendering is bad most of the time, yeah, but they were violating sovereign space. When that happens, you leave, apologize, and then if the other guys are dangerous, tell them you'll blow them up if they violate your space.
For that matter, you could make a case that the Founders are even justified in wanting to rule. I mean, they're pretty much just flat-out better than humanoids. At everything, as Khan would say. Their ability to shapeshift, their high resilience, and their presumably higher intellect should give them the right to be in charge of their inferiors, in the same way that humans are superior to lesser animals...
And yet these "superior" Founders were defeated by mere Solids. Doesn't sound that "superior" to me.
Their invasion was halted. Not really a defeat.
Plus, being a superior lifeform doesn't mean a whole lot in an interstellar war. There were a lot of other factors involved. But an unarmed Changeling versus an unarmed human? Yeah, the Changeling's gonna win.
Yes, and decisions should be scaled to the severity and imminency of the evidence you suspect is genuine. War should be an option of last resort, but the Federation used it as the first.
I am pretty sure that it was the Dominion that destroyed New Bajor, and before that, no miltiary actions by anyone had happened.
So no, the Dominion did strike first. They didn't even try to inform the Federation or anyone else - not even the Ferengi, by the way - that they considered that space theirs and wanted an end to the Federation's exploration of the Gamma Quadrant.
That wasn't just trying to appear strong to avoid a potentially hostile imperialist to stop expanding - it was an intentionally executed assault that could only provoke a conflict.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I feel I should point out that construing Jadzia's statement to the Jem'hadar as tantamount to 'we're staying, sod off' is rather out of context. What she said was 'You're making a mistake if you think holding Commander Sisko will stop the Federation from exploring the Gamma Quadrant'.
That's more like saying 'We won't negotiate as long as you're holding our officer hostage'. This is the stance of nearly every country on this planet and the Federation already has a pattern of attempting to secure the release of its nationals if they've been apprehended. As the planet Sisko had visited was relatively close to the Wormhole and no Dominion vessels had yet been sighted, it was seen as possible to effect a rescue without entering a confrontation.
Yes, the Federation escalated tensions, but they also attempted to de-escalate in 'The Search'. The fact it was the Defiant is irrelevant - the Dominion had illustrated that Federation vessels could not withstand an attack, so they sent the only ship they did have which could survive or avoid an engagement to negotiate. When the US President visits another country for diplomatic reasons, he travels with armed USAF personnel, the Secret Service and an escort of armed US jet fighters. Likewise, the Klingons always sent their frontline vessels (Vorcha, Negh'var or K't'inga) to negotiate with the Federation and whenever the Dominion did negotiate with the Federation, they sent one of their Heavy Cruisers. The Romulans also had a habit of sending D'Deridex Warbirds and the Cardassians would send entire squadrons of Galors, etc.
The Defiant was sent because it was the only ship which had a shot at surviving long enough to open negotiations. The same reason Air Force One gets a fighter escort and why the Enterprise gets sent to negotiate with other powers. 'Those who want peace must prepare for war'.
Look, the Federation is run by and consists almost entirely of humans. I don't care if it has pointed ears or antennae or a paintjob. If it's an actor with makeup, it's a human, regardless of what you call it. End of story. You want me to take your aliens seriously? Design actual aliens. And the Federation's record with aliens is...less than stellar. I mean, I've already gone over this other places, really, with the Undine being one of the more egregious examples.
(Side note: you might be able to get away with rubber-forehead aliens if you made them actually act properly alien, but Trek is terrible at that too.)
Just because you can't afford to use CGI all the time or come up with truly alien psychology doesn't make them any less of non-humans. The show says they're aliens, ergo they're aliens.
But even with the Founders, it's hard to argue that they aren't justified. Remember, they sent out a hundred of their own to explore the galaxy. And what happened to the one that found itself in the hands of solids, hm? It was experimented on and basically tortured for years, before finally getting a job and being ostracized for the rest of its life, all pretty much because a: the nosejob-humans were too stupid to make sure that blob of gel isn't sentient before you start messing with it, and b: because humans in general have a horribly negative reaction to anything that doesn't look exactly like them, at least in Trek. Probably in real life too.
And the Founders' instinctive reaction to solids is different how?
Now, I can't really lay the blame for the Federation being so aggressive toward the Dominion solely at the feet of this xenophobia, because they didn't really know what the Founders were until after much of the saber-rattling had already taken place. I'd have to check to be sure, but I don't think they had any real indication that they were dealing with aliens until the Link planet incident. Either way, though, their reaction was pretty mind-numbingly stupid. Surrendering is bad most of the time, yeah, but they were violating sovereign space. When that happens, you leave, apologize, and then if the other guys are dangerous, tell them you'll blow them up if they violate your space.
A: Once again, it wasn't the Dominion's sovereign space, regardless of whether they said it was or not. The Dosi were much closer to the wormhole than the nearest Dominion member (the Karemma), and were almost certainly not members at that time.
B: The Federation has been dealing with violent imperialists for ages and reacted to them like they'd react if the Romulans or Cardassians shot up one of their colonies and took the inhabitants prisoner: They went in hard to retrieve them. That the attempt failed says more about the tactical doctrines of a peacetime Starfleet (e.g. insufficient screening elements for their battleships: in the real world aircraft carriers go in as part of a battle group, not with a handful of Coast Guard cutters) than it does about whether it was the right thing to do.
For that matter, you could make a case that the Founders are even justified in wanting to rule. I mean, they're pretty much just flat-out better than humanoids. At everything, as Khan would say. Their ability to shapeshift, their high resilience, and their presumably higher intellect should give them the right to be in charge of their inferiors, in the same way that humans are superior to lesser animals...
Right, the "rights of a superior species" argument. But their intellect is not demonstrably higher than the average humanoid. And they're not so different from solids in their reactions either. Mentally, they are very certainly not superior to humanoids, or else they wouldn't have turned conquistador.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You can't mark a border in space. If you don't have ships in the air and/or shoes on the ground, or an internationally agreed-upon border like the DMZ or Neutral Zones, or even some kind of signal buoy that says "Yo, this space is ours, GTFO", you don't own it.
Sure you can. As you just said, Neutral Zones, DMZ, and as mentioned, the Metrons did it... My point, was that the Dominion were so comfortable with their position pf power, that they did not even need to do that, because everyone in the area knew where their turf began (other than Starfleet, who were from the other side of the galaxy )
I'd say it was that disastrous first contact and a whole disastrous series of events which caused the Dominion war.
Not only did the first encounter go spectacularly wrong with the loss of the Odyssey, the failed Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order strike and massacre in the Omarian Nebula raises the tensions even further with the Founders. Sisko's minefield was the excuse the Dominion were looking for to commence open warfare
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I am pretty sure that it was the Dominion that destroyed New Bajor, and before that, no miltiary actions by anyone had happened.
So no, the Dominion did strike first. They didn't even try to inform the Federation or anyone else - not even the Ferengi, by the way - that they considered that space theirs and wanted an end to the Federation's exploration of the Gamma Quadrant.
That wasn't just trying to appear strong to avoid a potentially hostile imperialist to stop expanding - it was an intentionally executed assault that could only provoke a conflict.
You're making the mistake of thinking that the Founders do/have to think like Humans/the Federation. They don't have to give a warning for anything they do in their territory. They're not Human, so they won't think like Humans. They still have the memory of being beaten and chased by solids, and are refusing to ever be put in that situation again, so they don't give warnings, they simply shoot first and think about asking questions later...
But an unarmed Changeling versus an unarmed human? Yeah, the Changeling's gonna win.
And in a conflict between an unarmed bear and an unarmed human, the bear wins. Does that make bears our superiors, whom we should simply cringe aside from when they make a demand?
And when the Metrons wanted a boundary, they marked the boundary. The buoy that was capable of moving to block the ship may not have been easy to understand, but it was there. They at least tried to avoid conflict with other races.
The Dominion, OTOH, does not appear to have been anywhere near the GQ end of the wormhole - until suddenly one day they appear out of the blue, kill everyone on New Bajor, kidnap a Starfleet officer, and then announce that this is their turf, and by the way no you can't have your captain back. That's not "negotiation" - that's a terrorist demand. And their psychology is sufficiently human-like to have both a concept of territory and a concept of other creatures not like themselves, so it was their responsibility to give any offenders against their propriety a chance to leave before anything gets starts.
Sorry, Vorta (I assume at this point that you're a Vorta trying to make your masters look better), but the blame for this one floats in the Great Link, not the Federation Council.
Comments
See, I always interpreted the Karemma as having acted without the knowledge or consent of the Dominion's central government, given how demonstrably xenophobic it is. You will notice that the central government's actions, i.e. blasting the hell out of any non-Dominion ship or installation they ran across, is kinda counter to trade relations.
Peaceful trade wasn't going to make for favorable diplomatic relations as long as the Founders had their manifest destiny thing going. At best it was an additional intelligence source.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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That is not how international relations work in the slightest. With such lunatic logic NATO would currently be embroiled in a war with Russia because we "didn't kowtow to Imperialists". Reacting immediately with force under some idea that you shouldn't look like a 'weakling' means you invade damn near everything in sight. The Federation would have been in existential wars with the Klingon Empire, Romulans, Cardassians, and every belligerent species-of-the-week.
Such a policy would be the policy of the Terran Empire.
None of which the Federation actually knew, and the real point is that by refusing to adhere to the violent request of the Dominion and responding in the belligerent manner you're arguing for, they allowed the war to occur. In fact, your idea of immediate retaliatory violence, not to be a 'weakling', gives the Dominion every single excuse it wants to get started on the warmongering.
By comparison, Starfleet deciding to maybe not just sling anything they please through the wormhole in an act of impudent arrogance, leaves the Dominion high and dry. They can't build up a series of perceived violations. They can't conduct the espionage required to give them conditions to gain a foothold, like with Cardassia (because they physically can't pass through the wormhole), and as a result an invasion via the wormhole alone would fail.
The mistake of, "Oooops, turns out the guys we tried to bully our way through to press our 'right' to explore are double hard b*****ds," is an excuse that is actually worse than the one the Dominion was using. The Dominion was rejecting Starfleet intrusion by claiming that coming through the wormhole was a violation of their territory. Starfleet counters this by saying....you totally can't stop us exploring, guys. And then basically invades said territory.
In the end, only our authorial omniscience allows us to see the Dominion are ultimately the bad guys with ulterior motives of trying to create conditions for an eventual invasion. On the ground, however, Starfleet is openly obstinate and belligerent to a situation they would never, ever have tried to pull on the Klingons, Romulans, or Cardassians, because they knew they'd get their face beat in by a peer opponent. They do, in fact, have gigantic Neutral Zones with said powers so neither side has to worry about getting their face beat in by a peer opponent over territorial disputes.
The war was going to happen regardless. The Founders were planning on it. Sisko screwed up their game by learning about them a hundred years too early.
If that's the episode where Kai Opaka died and then came back to life, you're misremembering. He left its defenses intact, he just distracted them long enough for himself, Julian, and Kira to escape.
A "sacred hunt" that was severely endangering his command. He was perfectly within his rights as a commanding officer to order his security teams to fire on hostile boarders.
Don't tell me you're part of the idiot "Starfleet's not a military WAAAAAHH!" crowd.
And you would have done what in his place, exactly? The Wadi didn't ask for their consent nor explain that none of it was actually real or lethal.
Go watch the series again, and pay closer attention this time.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Note that even when the planet of American Indians had to be vacated in the DMZ, the Cardassian Union gave them notice. Heck, when the Sheliak Corporate moved to enforce their own treaty terms, they provided the invasive colony with 48 hours' notice. The Dominion? There's someone on one of our worlds, who obviously don't know who we are - kill them!!
Or the policy of somebody who believes in the "broken windows" theory. You've got a building with a broken window that's not getting fixed. People then feel free to break the other windows because people are d**ks and obviously nobody cares enough. It's just as applicable to international relations as it is to law enforcement.
As I alluded in response to iconians, the detente of the Alpha Quadrant didn't happen overnight. The Federation has shot at and been shot at by literally every single one of its various neighbors, Ferengi included, at various points in the past.
They didn't need an excuse. That's my entire point. The Dominion deliberately targeted Federation and Federation-allied civilians for systematic extermination well before Starfleet made any overtly hostile moves at all. That's not technically genocide since it's governmental allegiance-based rather than racial or ethnic, but it's in the same category.
Sure they can. Not like they need to be worried about how they look to their citizenry. Even if they do, they can just make s**t up.
Can so. They're changelings. All they need is to leave a ship or two alive (notice they never said they had destroyed all the ships that were on their side of the wormhole) and replace the crew.
It failed purely on strategic and tactical terms. It's a choke point that the Dominion must secure in order to have a beachhead, because Star Trek warp drives are too slow to make hoofing it practical. And the enemy controls the opposite side. By contrast, on the Dominion's schedule, a hundred years from now they wouldn't need the wormhole because they'd have worked their way to the Federation border the old-fashioned way. Just like in a theoretical scenario where we replace the Dominion with the Galactic Empire from Star Wars, the Empire can skip capturing Deep Space 9 entirely because their hyperdrives are fast enough to make trans-galactic travel happen in a practical amount of time. The choke point becomes irrelevant.
It wasn't the Dominion's territory. Occupancy is what counts, not wild-TRIBBLE territorial claims. If they'd had military bases and patrols going from day one it would be their territory, but the Federation and its allies got there first. As it was they simply claimed hegemony over the entire galaxy regardless of what the actual situation on the ground was.
And how did those Neutral Zones get set up? By peace treaties created after long and bloody wars.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Even if such a malfunction did happen, it wouldn't matter. The prisoners don't have any starships to get offworld with.
Again, the Dominion did not have actual control over the wormhole and its surrounds until "The Jem'Hadar", regardless of what their wild-TRIBBLE claims were. There's a lot of fandom guessing but no actual evidence that the Hunters have any connection to the Dominion. All that happens there is that the Hunters agree to respect Federation and Bajoran sovereignty.
Sisko and Kira were inside the game and didn't have any way to actually contact the Wadi. How the frak were they supposed to do anything about it? And Quark and Odo had no idea what was going on; as far as they could tell, four of the installation's senior staff officers had been frakking kidnapped. That's a hostile act no matter which way you slice it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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They didn't need proof. Per "The Search, Part II", the Dominion started conquering stars at least 2,000 years ago, when humanity was in the early Iron Age and the Vulcans only had sublight travel. They decided on their "conquer them so they don't kill us for being superior to them" modus operandi millennia before the Federation was even thought of.
EDIT: Besides which, two years the Feds had to TRIBBLE around in that area of space and they didn't encounter a single Dominion patrol? Starfleet patrols its own outer areas considerably more heavily. Food for thought.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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This would never have been a basis for a long standing peace in my opinion.
The Dominion clearly possessed everything they needed to run an expansive Empire, anything they could want they could take, and from the background the tv series gives us the Dominion has had a lot of experience taking things they want.
Anybody attempting to trade with the Dominion is practically advertising their civilisations valuable resources for the Dominion to come along and subjugate their species, either peacefully like the Karemma, or to "pacify" them with Jem'Hadar shocktroops and claim that resource
Starfleet recalled all vessels and did not take any further action against the dominion until the "aid" convoys to cardassia began.
Then sisko mines the wormhole which starts the Dominion War...
Admiral Sovak
Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers...
Equally, as the Dominion had been in power for 2000 years, (as well as using techniques like The Blight) they may not have patrolled as much as Starfleet might, because they felt secure in their powerbase (until Starfleet started nosing around...)
You can't mark a border in space. If you don't have ships in the air and/or shoes on the ground, or an internationally agreed-upon border like the DMZ or Neutral Zones, or even some kind of signal buoy that says "Yo, this space is ours, GTFO", you don't own it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Many long standing peace agreements have been founded on beneficial trade and commerce. If both parties are willing to make it happen, of course.
If both parties decide to be grandstanding blowhards who are too proud to humble themselves and make concessions, then no, you are correct. A long standing peace would likely not happen.
That's usually how it goes. But one of two parties in this theoretical scenario are new to the gamma quadrant. One of them are not.
Regardless of who thinks who owns the space on the other side of the wormhole, only the Dominion are familiar with the area. The Federation are the strangers in a strange new quadrant. The Dominion are not.
You could argue the same with Federation trade. Obey the Human-founded and Human-sponsored Federation charter, with their Human-dominated starships... or suffer economic hardship by refusing to participate, and when you do actually need help, watch Starfleet refuse to help you because of their flawed prime directive.
The difference between the Dominion and Federation is ideologies, but the structure of both factions are eerily similar.
Use Diplomacy to try to get what you want -- either through honest good intentions like Picard, or manipulative deception like Weyoun.
And hell, if that doesn't work... just fire some ray guns at people because hey, you're the Dominion/Federation. Who is capable of stopping you?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It's been documented in Star Trek before that if a certain government faction or species wants the Federation to go take a long walk off a short cliff, the Federation generally honors their request.
I didn't hear Picard argue with the Paxans over where their borders actually extended to. He just knew they were a violent xenophobic race who wanted to destroy the Enterprise-D for finding their hidden planet.
So instead of beating his chest and telling them that the Paxans have no authority to tell them where they can and can't explore, he conceded when it became evident the Paxans could kill them all.
The Paxans didn't massacre minimum tens of thousands of civilians with no provocation. They merely ejected you from their space and erased your memory of their existence. No harm, no foul. EDIT: And they were content to keep to themselves. The Dominion are conquistadors.
If the Dominion ultimatum had come first the Federation might have actually honored the request. Instead it only came after the Dominion initiated hostilities. This cannot be stressed enough: the Dominion were the aggressors.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And again, I quote Hobbes: "It's hard to co-exist with things that want to kill you."
Thats not in question, the Federation are expansionist in their own right, but at least its inclusive with a chance of upward Mobility
The comment, that the "Federation is no more than a homo sapiens only club" is even on screen but the election of an Efrosian and a Grazerite UFP president at least confirm that Non-founding Member worlds have a possibility of putting forward a serious candidate for leadership
Such a possibility in the Dominion would be unthinkable, a conquered solid be elected leader ? Not a chance.
If you are a Solid and your not in sworn service to the Living Gods then your to be subjugated, without regard regard to your geographical or astronomical location
Look, the Federation is run by and consists almost entirely of humans. I don't care if it has pointed ears or antennae or a paintjob. If it's an actor with makeup, it's a human, regardless of what you call it. End of story. You want me to take your aliens seriously? Design actual aliens. And the Federation's record with aliens is...less than stellar. I mean, I've already gone over this other places, really, with the Undine being one of the more egregious examples.
(Side note: you might be able to get away with rubber-forehead aliens if you made them actually act properly alien, but Trek is terrible at that too.)
But even with the Founders, it's hard to argue that they aren't justified. Remember, they sent out a hundred of their own to explore the galaxy. And what happened to the one that found itself in the hands of solids, hm? It was experimented on and basically tortured for years, before finally getting a job and being ostracized for the rest of its life, all pretty much because a: the nosejob-humans were too stupid to make sure that blob of gel isn't sentient before you start messing with it, and b: because humans in general have a horribly negative reaction to anything that doesn't look exactly like them, at least in Trek. Probably in real life too.
Now, I can't really lay the blame for the Federation being so aggressive toward the Dominion solely at the feet of this xenophobia, because they didn't really know what the Founders were until after much of the saber-rattling had already taken place. I'd have to check to be sure, but I don't think they had any real indication that they were dealing with aliens until the Link planet incident. Either way, though, their reaction was pretty mind-numbingly stupid. Surrendering is bad most of the time, yeah, but they were violating sovereign space. When that happens, you leave, apologize, and then if the other guys are dangerous, tell them you'll blow them up if they violate your space.
For that matter, you could make a case that the Founders are even justified in wanting to rule. I mean, they're pretty much just flat-out better than humanoids. At everything, as Khan would say. Their ability to shapeshift, their high resilience, and their presumably higher intellect should give them the right to be in charge of their inferiors, in the same way that humans are superior to lesser animals...
Their invasion was halted. Not really a defeat.
Plus, being a superior lifeform doesn't mean a whole lot in an interstellar war. There were a lot of other factors involved. But an unarmed Changeling versus an unarmed human? Yeah, the Changeling's gonna win.
I am pretty sure that it was the Dominion that destroyed New Bajor, and before that, no miltiary actions by anyone had happened.
So no, the Dominion did strike first. They didn't even try to inform the Federation or anyone else - not even the Ferengi, by the way - that they considered that space theirs and wanted an end to the Federation's exploration of the Gamma Quadrant.
That wasn't just trying to appear strong to avoid a potentially hostile imperialist to stop expanding - it was an intentionally executed assault that could only provoke a conflict.
That's more like saying 'We won't negotiate as long as you're holding our officer hostage'. This is the stance of nearly every country on this planet and the Federation already has a pattern of attempting to secure the release of its nationals if they've been apprehended. As the planet Sisko had visited was relatively close to the Wormhole and no Dominion vessels had yet been sighted, it was seen as possible to effect a rescue without entering a confrontation.
Yes, the Federation escalated tensions, but they also attempted to de-escalate in 'The Search'. The fact it was the Defiant is irrelevant - the Dominion had illustrated that Federation vessels could not withstand an attack, so they sent the only ship they did have which could survive or avoid an engagement to negotiate. When the US President visits another country for diplomatic reasons, he travels with armed USAF personnel, the Secret Service and an escort of armed US jet fighters. Likewise, the Klingons always sent their frontline vessels (Vorcha, Negh'var or K't'inga) to negotiate with the Federation and whenever the Dominion did negotiate with the Federation, they sent one of their Heavy Cruisers. The Romulans also had a habit of sending D'Deridex Warbirds and the Cardassians would send entire squadrons of Galors, etc.
The Defiant was sent because it was the only ship which had a shot at surviving long enough to open negotiations. The same reason Air Force One gets a fighter escort and why the Enterprise gets sent to negotiate with other powers. 'Those who want peace must prepare for war'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Just because you can't afford to use CGI all the time or come up with truly alien psychology doesn't make them any less of non-humans. The show says they're aliens, ergo they're aliens.
And the Founders' instinctive reaction to solids is different how?
A: Once again, it wasn't the Dominion's sovereign space, regardless of whether they said it was or not. The Dosi were much closer to the wormhole than the nearest Dominion member (the Karemma), and were almost certainly not members at that time.
B: The Federation has been dealing with violent imperialists for ages and reacted to them like they'd react if the Romulans or Cardassians shot up one of their colonies and took the inhabitants prisoner: They went in hard to retrieve them. That the attempt failed says more about the tactical doctrines of a peacetime Starfleet (e.g. insufficient screening elements for their battleships: in the real world aircraft carriers go in as part of a battle group, not with a handful of Coast Guard cutters) than it does about whether it was the right thing to do.
Right, the "rights of a superior species" argument. But their intellect is not demonstrably higher than the average humanoid. And they're not so different from solids in their reactions either. Mentally, they are very certainly not superior to humanoids, or else they wouldn't have turned conquistador.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Sure you can. As you just said, Neutral Zones, DMZ, and as mentioned, the Metrons did it... My point, was that the Dominion were so comfortable with their position pf power, that they did not even need to do that, because everyone in the area knew where their turf began (other than Starfleet, who were from the other side of the galaxy
Not only did the first encounter go spectacularly wrong with the loss of the Odyssey, the failed Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order strike and massacre in the Omarian Nebula raises the tensions even further with the Founders. Sisko's minefield was the excuse the Dominion were looking for to commence open warfare
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
You're making the mistake of thinking that the Founders do/have to think like Humans/the Federation. They don't have to give a warning for anything they do in their territory. They're not Human, so they won't think like Humans. They still have the memory of being beaten and chased by solids, and are refusing to ever be put in that situation again, so they don't give warnings, they simply shoot first and think about asking questions later...
And when the Metrons wanted a boundary, they marked the boundary. The buoy that was capable of moving to block the ship may not have been easy to understand, but it was there. They at least tried to avoid conflict with other races.
The Dominion, OTOH, does not appear to have been anywhere near the GQ end of the wormhole - until suddenly one day they appear out of the blue, kill everyone on New Bajor, kidnap a Starfleet officer, and then announce that this is their turf, and by the way no you can't have your captain back. That's not "negotiation" - that's a terrorist demand. And their psychology is sufficiently human-like to have both a concept of territory and a concept of other creatures not like themselves, so it was their responsibility to give any offenders against their propriety a chance to leave before anything gets starts.
Sorry, Vorta (I assume at this point that you're a Vorta trying to make your masters look better), but the blame for this one floats in the Great Link, not the Federation Council.