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Avenger Class Battlecruiser vs. Assault Cruiser Refit
kiloace
Member Posts: 488 Arc User
Career: Engineering
Desired Role: High Damage/Durability
Avenger:
5 Fore Weapons +++
Superior Maneuverability +++
Armament Flexibility (Cannons/Beams) +++
Boff Flexibility ++
Decreased Survivability -
Less Pleasing (Aesthetically) --
More Numerous ---
Total: 11+ vs. 6- = 5 Overall
Assault Cruiser:
Wide-Angle Torpedo +++
More Aesthetically Pleasing +++
Superior Durability ++
Boff Flexibility ++
Less Maneuverable --
Less Armament Flexibility (Beams only) --
Total: 10+ vs. 4- = 6 Overall
I've tried to reduce the decision to prime factors and associated poles (high + count means its important to me. Don't care about anything you have to say about fashion not being just as crucial as function). I still need help deciding.
I hear the Avenger is good, but the Assault Cruiser Refit gains an edge because they're less numerous and aesthetically pleasing (IMO). Both ships have great potential well into Tier 6, and, to be honest, I would still be very happy with both ships. However, limit resources force me to choose ONLY ONE. Suffice it to say, it is going to become the main ship for my alt fed engineer. The role I'm going for is a fairly even split between survivability and raw firepower, with slightly more priority on firepower.
There are some things I will not compromise on, but do you guys have any advice?
Desired Role: High Damage/Durability
Avenger:
5 Fore Weapons +++
Superior Maneuverability +++
Armament Flexibility (Cannons/Beams) +++
Boff Flexibility ++
Decreased Survivability -
Less Pleasing (Aesthetically) --
More Numerous ---
Total: 11+ vs. 6- = 5 Overall
Assault Cruiser:
Wide-Angle Torpedo +++
More Aesthetically Pleasing +++
Superior Durability ++
Boff Flexibility ++
Less Maneuverable --
Less Armament Flexibility (Beams only) --
Total: 10+ vs. 4- = 6 Overall
I've tried to reduce the decision to prime factors and associated poles (high + count means its important to me. Don't care about anything you have to say about fashion not being just as crucial as function). I still need help deciding.
I hear the Avenger is good, but the Assault Cruiser Refit gains an edge because they're less numerous and aesthetically pleasing (IMO). Both ships have great potential well into Tier 6, and, to be honest, I would still be very happy with both ships. However, limit resources force me to choose ONLY ONE. Suffice it to say, it is going to become the main ship for my alt fed engineer. The role I'm going for is a fairly even split between survivability and raw firepower, with slightly more priority on firepower.
There are some things I will not compromise on, but do you guys have any advice?
Post edited by kiloace on
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Avenger can equip the cloaking console.
Assault Cruiser gets an extra cruiser command (Draw Fire).
Assault Cruiser gets the 'cruiser' upgrade package if you go 5U, whereas Avenger gets the 'battlecruiser' package. Basically bonus damage resistance and self healing vs extra crit severity.
Now before I say this, I'll tell you.. I have never flown an Avenger. Honestly though, the stats on it perplex me, I don't get the role this thing is supposed to fill.
It can equip cannons.. well great.. but a Turn Rate of 9 is still pretty terrible for a ship that needs to be facing the enemy. Even with an RCS Console you're still going to spend too much time turning instead of firing.
The ship seems best set up for beams, but if you put beams on it, it just becomes a less durable Assault Cruiser. The two ships are highly similar in damage output but the Assault Cruiser is more durable and far more aesthetically pleasing.
The deciding factor would be simply Cannons or Beams. If you want DHC's then obviously you'll go Avenger, but I honestly think you'll get higher damage output with a beam build Assault Cruiser. Factor in that the Cruiser also has better survivability and my vote is definitely for the Cruiser.
The Avenger however, can do all that keeps an FACR-U in 2nd place while retaining its advantages, and remains top/joint top of Fed Tac Cruisers.
What makes you say this?
Both ships have the same console layout and very similar BoFF layout. The biggest differences are the superior turn rate of the Avenger, the Superior Defense of the Cruiser, and the Weapons layout (5/3 vs 4/4.)
The weapon layout really only matters in a Cannon build and in most cases Beam Builds generate superior DPS to Cannons. If you outfitted both with Beams, the weapon layout would be of little to no value since you would be mostly broadsiding. The Avenger could get turned a little faster to fire a front or rear mounted Torp but that small difference would hardly be enough to push one into a higher tier of damage.
These 2 ships are very comparable to one another, if the Assault Cruiser is 'firmly into the 2nd tier' then so is the Avenger.
They are both 2 of the most capable tactical ships the Federation have to offer. The Avenger is only a clear choice if you're sold on a DHC build.
In all honesty, there is no wrong answer here. Either way, you'll get a good ship capable of putting out high damage which honestly is all that matters in this game anymore.
I have to disagree on that one I have a fleet avenger T5U and when i set it up with 2x fleet neutronuims [turn] and fleet rcs [resall] it deals more damage than the assault cruiser and a beamed avenger and ofcourse i do use fleet tact consoles
My avenger has a cannon/beam mix lol
Ps can anyone help me on my forums please?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=20593751#post20593751
To be clear, I'm not disputing that the Avenger can put out good DPS.. it absolutely can.
I'm disputing the claim that it's in a bracket above the Assault Cruiser.
They are both good ships, they put out comparable DPS depending on how they're built. I can easily push 15k DPS with a simple generic A2B Fleet Assault Cruiser, I'm sure there are Avenger builds that meet that level, some probably top it (I'm not a super elite player by any means.)
Although, I would be interested to see the numbers you're pushing by mixing Cannons and Beams because that is normally a highly inefficient combination. As long as it works for you though, that's all that counts. Again, in all fairness, I'm basing my opinion of the Avenger on it's raw stats, I don't own one so it's entirely possible that I'm missing something when it comes to this ship.
I am however, certain of the Assault Cruisers capability.
Beam boat builds only exceed the DPS of a DHC build when you factor in things like FAW and all the targets it's hitting... 1v1 a DHC build will out do a beam build.. atleast this has been my personal experience. Beam builds also of course have the benifit of wider firing arcs.
Personally... it's only 500 zen more for a full T6 ship.. you sure you don't want to just get say a Guardian or Eclipse?
A reasonable point.
Actually, if he doesn't have the ship yet, he would have to buy from the C-Store for 2500 Zen, then buy a Fleet Module for 500 Zen to get to Fleet. Then another 700 for the T5-U upgrade makes the T5-U cost 3700 vs 3000 for the T6.
In choosing between the two ships, I would put it like this..
If you want T5U set up with Cannons.. Avenger.
If you want T5U set up Beam Arrays.. Assault Cruiser.
If you want the most value for your money, skip them both and buy a T6 ship as john suggested. It's cheaper and you'll be able to upgrade it to T6 Fleet at a later date.
Simple- the boff layout - the Avenger (and Tac Oddy-U for that matter) has a VASTLY superior layout, as it can do 6 Tac boff slots without compromising the eng or sci you want to run - something an Assault Cruiser cannot do if it wants sci boff powers, as it is suffers a Lt. Eng that is fixed, not the Lt. Sci of the Avenger. Strike 1.
On top of that setback, what do you put in your Lt. Eng? Your commander Eng has the space to do all the Eng buffs you need, meaning the Avenger benefits again, as it's Lt. Sci is useful. Strike 2.
Finally, the Guardian. It gains Intel abilities and a Lt. Cm. Sci over a Uni-Sci or eng ACR, enough to render said ACR obsolete. It only clings on due to 6 tac boffs and an extra Tac console, and then we are back to Strike 1. Strike 3 and out.
Unless you want an A2B set up on any of them, but you shouldn't look to do that as it cripples DPS potential.
A better option would be the Fleet Excelsior, solid ship and way faster than the Sovereign. It even has passive bonuses to all power subsystems and a handy transwarp.
Avenger's a different kind of ship after all, but it can do what the Sovvie does, and does it slightly better.
100% agree, but...
Avenger's WAAAAAY better than Excel too, Excel loses 15% crtD mastery.
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Secondly, the Avenger doesnt need Aux2Bat, and hence wins for dps against the -now thanks to a2b gimped- assault in that respect. You can offset this with the phantoms trait, but its still a gamble, so the avenger, which can story faw1 and apb1 if the trait doesnt trigger is superior against a non-a2b-assault. If you fly the assault a2b, you dont need the trait, but then the avenger wins thanks to +5% or more dmg from nukara t4 offense skill.
With the avenger and the avaiability at fleet starbase t4 they effectively made the assault obsolete, as the avenger can do the same plus more then the assault, and is avaiable far faster then the fleet assault.
Third is the quantum torp: doesnt give you much, not really a selling point there.
To sum it up, Avenger wins hands down. Not surprising as its a newer generation (from the looks of it its the child of a assault mating with a vesta).
Yeah I bookmarked that chart. I'm amazed its not on the STO Wiki or something.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zftXJvd3jOWLOuP4NPRMFemqE9YcOr-8p8LCj3kCiV4/edit?pli=1
And survivability is fine, as long as you make shields your tank, not your hull.
For tankiness it's the Regent. But if you want all up firepower, it's the avenger again and again.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I agree with you that it's more aesthetically pleasing and even iconic if you use the Sovereign skin, plus it glides better through space. Generally taken, both are very similar with minor differences, both still very usefull in game. Also the Assault Cruiser makes more sense as a Starfleet cruiser than the half-Vengeance; half-Klingon ripoff.
But just go with what you're heart tells you to. I always tell this to people - pick the one you like how it looks better, cause at the end of the day you'll be stuck looking at it a lot during your game time, regardless which one it is. More enjoyable to have a ship you like then a set of stats.
I got both, and once I get my engineering captain up to 50+(at 12 right now) she'll be flying a regent till she hits the Guardian. Plan to go a bit RP with this captain and give her the Guardian once she hits 4 star Admiral.
But each ship are good workhorses. And I kinda like the look of the Avenger because I equate her to the A-10 Warthog. She wasn't meant to be pretty, she was meant to bring the pain and be utility more than look good.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
No, no, no, no, no, no......no. You got it all wrong. This is the A-10 WarTarg.
You can have your wartarg. I'll keep my Gau 8 Avenger which the raptor much as I lover, simply can't put out that kind of firepower.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
The Assault Cruiser Refit though can still perform well enough. Aesthetically speaking, it's hands down superior to the ghastly Avenger.
I love high performance ships and all but damn, I just can't stand the look of the Avenger.
Again the Avenger was never meant to look pretty. She was meant to be utilitarian, efficient and bring firepower as fast as possible as hard as possible. Which they do.
I like the look of the Avenger because she doesn't try to look pretty. She is meant to be mean and bring the pain and make ships into wreckage.
Yeah want pretty fly a Regent or a Vesta. They are beautiful longswords or rapiers. Avenger, she's a big old battle axe that is supposed to cleave heads from shoulders.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I'm curious, whats the reason for this exactly? is it due to the loss of aux boosting +damage passives? With high aux and the loss of the Nukara T4 trait was worth about 70 dps. With aux at around 35-40 the Nukara T4 trait was only good for about 20dps on each weapon. Are there any other traits that i may have missed?
I'm thinking about dusting off my Avenger too and building it up but its an A2B build and your comment caught my attention. Seems like i'd be trading off some damage for better uptime on offensive abilities. As well as the usual downsides to aux based abilities when running A2B. On my setup that would be HE and PH for its resists.
If you're running a vesta, a2b is actually a worthless ability since you're going to be running aux cannon heavy like I do on mine. My weapon energy is set to minimum and I roll highest on aux.
In the case of having aux DHC, A2B is actually detrimental.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I was just using the vesta as an example of how much max aux affected the nukara T4 trait. I dont actually run A2B on it, i just happened to be sitting in the ship at the time i alt tabbed and decided to post that reply.
Now then, I have a couple more basic questions to ask before I finalize my choice. I'm saying right now that its probably gonna be the Assault Refit, because (as much as it may make some of you cringe) I still value the way something looks over the way it plays. After making that choice, so long as the difference in utility isn't too extensive, I will adapt a working playstyle to that ship's potential.
Right now, my final question:
With the purchase of the Regent, is the Tier 6 hull material available to all variants of the FACR?
The Regent comes with a special hull color (the stark white one) that unlocks on any Assault Cruiser when purchased. It also comes with the Wide Angle Torpedo Launcher and the gas canister that you can use on any ship.
So yes, if you bought the Assault Cruiser Refit, you could use the Regent Skin and hull color on the standard T5 'free' Assault Cruiser as well as the Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit. So if you wanted a Stark White Noble, Sovereign, etc. You could do that.
There may be other ships that have some better options, but it's a very capable vessel. I fly a Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit (T5-u) and can handle anything DR has thrown at me.
It is a whole load of stuff, the Nukara Traits are just one factor. A2B used to be useless until Devs broke it putting it onto the A2X line from the EPTX line, and then it became useful for some ships. By Season 9.5, very few ships performed better A2Bed. Galaxy Retrofits/Star Cruisers - low Tac but high Eng vessels. Post-DR, if you have access to a Phantom T5 Trait, you should not A2B anything - Reciprocity is that good that a 40k DPS Fleet Galaxy has been done with potential for more, whereas an A2B set up one might just reach 35k.
What you are looking to accomplish to achieve DPS is max uptime on Tac abilities, and for beamboats, constant max weapon power. (cannon boats are different due to the way overcap works on them)
The easiest way, pre-DR, on any Tac heavy Fed Cruiser (They all use the same Tac layout for this) is:
TT1, APB1,
TT1,
BFAW1, APB1, BFAW3, (or, swap to BFAW2, APB2, if you want to boost team DPS slightly more)
On an A2B boat, you would use TT1, APB1, BFAW3, (or BFAW2, APB2 as noted)
So, we now have max uptime on Tac abilities, and our beam boat is happily poking everything around it with nice coloured sticks of energy. Usually Rom Plasma, Disruptor or Antiproton.
A2B at this point looks OP, but that is because we've only looked at one aspect of our ship.
The rest of the Boffs will look somewhat like: (Non-A2B)
EPTW/EPTS1, A2SIF, EPTW/EPTS3, DEM3/RSP3 (Lt./Cm. abilities may be swapped)
HE1, TSS2/ST2/PH2/etc. (or, for an ACR pilot, ET1, an extra bit of uptime on a Lt. or Cm. Ability as it has no Sci at this point)
A2B:
EPTS/EPTW1, A2B1, EPTS/EPTW3, Useful Cm. Eng ability.
ET1, A2B1,
HE1, ST2/PH2/etc.
EPTS/EPTW - If using Damage Control Engineers or A2B, whichever you want rank 3 is placed first, the other is Rank 1. If not and only using 1 EPTX, both the same.
We can see the non-A2B boat has better survivability and flexibility, as A2B not only gives up Boff powers from Eng that we actually could use, but it is running no Aux, which means HE is essentially pure debuff removal and cannot be used as a Hull heal or resist effectively, same with any other Aux based skill.
Already, A2B is only just maintaining parity, and we have only covered Boff skills. All the other aspects only seal its fate.
This is a damage centric game, and as the superior firepower ship, you'll find the battlecruiser to fill that role brilliantly. THAT being said...
If your going to go for a battlecruiser, you might as well wait for a fleet eclipse. In my opinion, the eclipse looks ten times better than the regent with all those angles, and it'll likely deal twice to three times the damage set up properly. If your heart is really set on the looks of the regent though, don't think it has a shortage of firepower. I flew one on my engi just before the battlecruiser came out, and I frequently out damaged escorts with an aux2bat setup. None of these ships are slouches when it comes to firepower, though you'll find the eclipse has the most while still keeping the defense of the fleet regent. I don't think I did once in PvE combat in that ship. Battlecruiser is easily the squishiest of the three, but it can still tank much more generously than an escort and deal more damage.
As I said though, if your going for a battlecruiser, might as well save the cash and shell it out for a fleet eclipse, thats what I'd do.
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