Perhaps I was wrong to bring up his losses in film. I mentioned it only as a way to point out why no big money investors where willing to back him at all.
Also claiming his budgets got cut.... when he spent almost 50 million making a movie like lord of war speaks for itself. As for casting choices... are you kidden he has made movies with Bruce Willis / Josh Hartnett / Morgan Freeman / Robin Williams / Nic cage / Ben Kinglsly / Colin Farrell / Giovanni Ribisi... saying people kept him from hiring A list talent is just silly. If anything his main issue was way over spending on things like casting. Honestly going way over budget in general. (which is something Origin almost fired him for back in the wing commander days when he pushed WC4 almost 15 million over budget... back then that was no joke and almost put Origin out for good).
What I should have brought up for the reason to not trust Chris Roberts at all... is simple.
Digital Anvil.
People somehow have forgotten that he has already run this exact scam once before.
Start a company...
Drive a bunch of hype by trading on something you did in the past...
Release Nothing but continue hyping...
Release some Videos, and a few tech demos... (yes there was a playable stripped down freelancer demo 3 years before MS finished the game with out Roberts)
Burn through investor money for a couple years...
Sucker large Company in need of product into buying you out.
That is exactly what he did with Digital Anvil. Started DA in 1996. The only game they ever released was Starlancer. However they had almost nothing to do with that game, it was actually developed by Warthog (warthog was started by the talent that made privater 2). DA had almost nothing to do with that game at all. Then they started work on Freelancer... and hyped the hell out of it for 4 years. Then at the height of the Vaporware calls... Mr Roberts showed off a stripped down tech demo to MS... and sold DA to Microsoft. At that point MS had to put almost 3 more years into making that an actual game they could sell. The game the released wasn't even close to the game Roberts claimed to be making... they threw out almost everything he had been working on in truth. After they got that fail project out... they moved any staff worth keeping to other MS divisions and closed the DA doors.
Bottom line MS got taken by Roberts hard. lol Suckers.
Still I bet a company like EA gets had this time. I somehow doubt they are smart enough to learn from the mistake MS make in almost the exact situation.
OH just FYI as well... Cloud Imperium isn't his first attempt after DA... he also started Point of No Return which had started some projects (he claimed) and did take some investor funds... and did nothing before he shut the doors.
Your Take on CRs history is very misleading, I don't think you know or realized that he has already worked for EA in the past. He started his own company to get away from there BS that is, get it done at this date at any cost. An I like that he doesn't think the same way that MS and EA do, and that he actually wants to produce a game that hasn't been done this way before. Even ED, though similar wont have the same mechanics as SC. Still each look great but its still down to preference.
Here are some useful tidbits of Info for anyone willing to read up on it :P.
Also it is Very unlikely that CR would work for or sellout to EA, since he has worked with them in the past and didn't like there business practice, same thing happened with MS, then he went on a 8-10 year hiatus making movies, then came back to the game development scene with star citizen.
As I remember it starlancer was running behind schedule and over budget due to technical problems involved in getting some new features that were promised integrated into the game, DA's stockholders were impatient for release and demanded DA release the game 'as-is', and CR refused, opting to instead distance himself from the project. The project (and company) were sold to MS to recover the investors interest and MS decided not to complete the project as designed but instead to scrap most of it and rewrite it for a quicker release.
If you really want to trash Chris Roberts, at least be honest about the facts.
Geko and D'Angelo will make STO obsolete. At this rate they're going, long before SC is even released.
Luckily there are more than a few alternatives on the horizon.
Also it is Very unlikely that CR would work for or sellout to EA, since he has worked with them in the past and didn't like there business practice, same thing happened with MS, then he went on a 8-10 year hiatus making movies, then came back to the game development scene with star citizen.
Chris did indeed work for a developer that was bought out by EA. Yes he worked for origin and a few years before he left your right EA picked them up in a stock swap deal. Thing is Chris and his tendency to spend millions more then he should is partly why Rich and Rob the brothers that ran Origin had to sell out. They considered going public, in the end took the EA deal. At that time though frankly EA was no where near the "evil" corp people consider it now. EA had a lot of great people then. In fact a bunch of actual EA (not developers from a bought out house) left EA and founded Warthog. Who Roberts paid to pretty much ghost write starlancer. (Starlancer was almost 100% a Warthog created game).
Anyway I won't argue with you... I have made my points and backed what I could up with fact. Its ok the cult of Roberts is well snowed. I'm sure if I had a video of Roberts talking about ripping people off and doing his best evil laugh you wouldn't believe it to be true. lol
To be frank I'm not sure he really is planning to rip people off. Myself I believe it is more a case of a guy who would love to do all sorts of things but has no idea how to make that happen and turn a profit all at the same time. Of course he has fewer worries with SC as all his "investment" dollars have been gifted to him. That to me is where the entire model gets a little grey. I mean if he never releases anything is Cloud Imp liable. The answer is yes they are. This year more then a few failed kickstarter projects have been sued in class action suits... or litigated directly by state govs.
Not trolling mentioning that Cloud Imp would be libel if they never release an actual full version of SC. (his lawyers could argue the tech demos they have released so far mean any "contract" with his "investors" has been met... still I don't think they could win if they never release). I only mention it so hoping you will remember this post 2-3 years from now. When you hear rumblings of about a class action make sure you get in on it. lol
As I remember it starlancer was running behind schedule and over budget due to technical problems involved in getting some new features that were promised integrated into the game, DA's stockholders were impatient for release and demanded DA release the game 'as-is', and CR refused, opting to instead distance himself from the project. The project (and company) were sold to MS to recover the investors interest and MS decided not to complete the project as designed but instead to scrap most of it and rewrite it for a quicker release.
If you really want to trash Chris Roberts, at least be honest about the facts.
I haven't said anything untrue. Roberts left Origin... not to found DA. He left because EA fired him plain and simple. They fired him not because he is a terrible "artist" they fired him because he doesn't know how to spend a budget in away that allows him(or his employer) to turn a profit. He was let go not because WC4 sucked... but because he spent 3x more then he was supposed to making it. Next time your boss asks you to go down to the local supply story to pick up 100 dollars worth of supplies and you come back having put over 1000 dollars on there amex. Expect to be looking for work.
The main "investor" funny enough on the game side of DA was Microsoft. Who took another 2 years to release Freelancer after buying Roberts out. Yep sounds like they where cracking the whip to make sure the game just got out. (honestly no one would ever admit it and no facts at all on this one... I would assume the DA board wanted Chris out and its hard to fire your founder.... MS pretty much already owned them anyway with there distro deal. IMO they gave him a graceful exit and even allowed him to keep a "consultant" title when the game came out. Yes there I speculated... bet ya thats closer to the truth then anything Roberts has ever said in any interview on the subject though)
Many of the video games words personalities from that time period. Where good at promoting themselves. Most of them got lucky and had there name attached to entire styles of games. Guys like Romero Roberts Meier's Carmak... Romero and Roberts I would say where the kings of the vaporware... guys like Meiers where wise with trademarks and hiring the proper developers to develop the same style of game over and over. Carmak had some cool ideas and is no doubt a genious. Lets all be honest though ID made some great games but they always hyped there engines much more then they deserved. As interesting and sometimes ahead of there time ID engines where... it was still Sweeney and EPIC that powered generations of games with the unreal engine. (and he never self promoted like those other guys.. almost like he know he was just the head of a group of guys that got the job done.)
Anyway seems all I do on these forums anymore is talk about other games.
I'm not a fan of crowd funding for AAA titles. To be honest it sort of disgusts me in general so perhaps I'm biased. Its one thing to give some money to small developer for some odd ball game that is really a labour of love and will never turn a profit (so no one will invest in it). Something like that is cool. (doesn't require 60+ million either lol). However when your talking about a AAA MMO that has the potential to make Billions over its life time... I find it insulting that he expects his potential customers to pay for its development.
On the other hand, I´m 100% sure no developer or investor would dare give him the cash to try and make what he´s saying he can make. Not saying its a great situation, but it is what it is.
You don´t need to look further than what STO has devolved into to see why people are all too willing to throw money his way in the hopes of getting something good out of it.
Think 60 million is a lot? Think about this, if player´s hadn´t been burned by so many AAA pre-orders, how much more money would SC have raised by now? I hear people say that they just will not, ever, buy a game before its complete anymore.
I was fortunate enough that the amounts of cash Roberts was asking for were within my budget so I was happy to throw it his way. If he can deliver half of what he claims i´ll consider it a win. I mean, what else am I going to spend my game cash on? Cryptic?
I haven't played ED yet I will on Dec 14th... everything I have heard so far is great. Of course most of the people loving it right now are the early supporters that are in general into that type of game and have there joystick and Oculus setups ect...
I think he means the lockboxes we open paid for it. So in essence we are ALL paying for Neverwinter, a game I for one, do not play or plan to play at all.
I thought ED launched the 16th not the 14th? Not gonna complain if it launches 2 days early though! Got your HOTAS already Antonio?
I deduce that he had very little money of his own cause there was no other reason to bring in Ortwin Freyermuth... Freyermuth is a lawyer with strong ties to some German media groups that buy movie distribution rights for parts of Europe. Freyermuths Capella pictures (int distribution house) fell apart after they attempted and failed to aquire MGM (as part of a larger group) almost 20 years ago now. In any event the guys is one of Roberts friends of course he was his legal team for Point of No Return Entertainment and Ascendant Pictures... People don't remember that No Return was supposed to be his game house after he failed in the movies. No return never actually made anything at all, I believe he also had investors in that btw. His movie company http://www.ascendantpictures.com/ did produce a few movies no doubt. They did mostly B and smaller movies... they haven't worked on anything in over 7 years so I would assume they are done. They had some good early deals with movies for Weinstien as the distributor, seemed like there movies got smaller instead of larger so perhaps it just fizzeled I don't know. My guess (yes its a guess) he just never made enough of a profit to attract investors for new projects... most movies are funded with investor money.
Frankly Roberts was having issues with funding for SC before the kickstarter... not because it is a game type no one sees profit in... he had issues because after 20+ years of burning investors, or involving them in break even projects no one was willing to trust him with out asking for a good chunk of any potential return.
That isn't read on any blog my friend... its as simple as going and finding the histories of the stuff he has done the last 20 years.
EDIT.
I was interested so I went and found out how much His Movie company lost for investors... so here is a break down for you.
- Lucky Number Sleven. (like this movie btw lol) Gross 22.4 Mil Cost of production 27 Million
Loss of 4.6 Million
- Lord of War Gross 24.1 Million Cost of production 47 Million
Loss of 22.9 Million
- Ask the Dust Gross 742,000 Cost 19+ Million (reported by ascendant)
Loss of 18.258 Million
- The Big White Gross Gross (couldn't find actual numbers on this one it did that bad, opened almost no where and had no major DVD distro deal) ... Cost of production 18 Million... (Robin Williams wasn't cheap lol)
Loss can only assume it had to be close to total but say 17 million
Who is your Caddy? (Yes oh my this is one of his) Gross 5.9 Million... cost of production 8 Million.
Loss 2.1 Millon. (to be honest this isn't bad he should have started with small films from the start)
So just so you understand why he isn't in the movie game anymore... Ascendant has grossed 53.142 Million on its movies... and spent around 120 Million in production.
So to sum up why I don't trust Chirs Roberts (not cause I read it somewhere)
1) Origin wasn't his company he was an employee yes where he made the wing commander stuff all the $ side of things where handled by people that knew what they where doing with that.
2) Digital Anvil... he founded. Had investors bank his Wing Comamnder movie... lost them a ton of money... hired Warthog to make Starlancer. Then promised Freelancer (which was vapor ware 100%)... sold Digital Anvil to Microsoft (which is why I say now CI is going to EA unless someone there is smart enough to remember MS getting burned by Roberts previously) Microsoft spent 2 years finishing Freelancer and got it out (and it was completely different from the game Roberts promised 2 years before when he owned the Co)
3) He starts a Movie company... and looses investors 10s of MILLIONS of dollars. Mostly because he allowed projects like Lord of War to have stupidly large budgets.
4) Founds a New Studio (Cloud Imperium) a few months before going on Kickstarter to beg for free funding... even claims he has investors willing to jump in. Claims he got such a great response he didn't need them... but given his history. I am more willing to believe they got cold feet when they looked at his track record... OR they never existed to begin with. The guy at this point has to have burned almost anyone he would have ever met that had that type of money.
All I can say is WOW man!
I always appreciate such a well researched and well thought out expose. Definitely worth thinking about.
I think he means the lockboxes we open paid for it. So in essence we are ALL paying for Neverwinter, a game I for one, do not play or plan to play at all.
I thought ED launched the 16th not the 14th? Not gonna complain if it launches 2 days early though! Got your HOTAS already Antonio?
ya I guess I sort of knew what he was meaning. Its just the way every developer works though. If cloud imp is ample to release a SC game they will start working on something new right after if not before its done. Just the nature of things.
Ya no HOTAS here... or any joystick of anykind. I have never honestly been a big joystick person. I had a few over the years and always ended up with my fingers all over a keyboard instead. We'll see though if ED sucks me in I may break down and get something.
I always appreciate such a well researched and well thought out expose. Definitely worth thinking about.
I know I likely sound overly harsh on the guy. Honestly I don't think he is a con man... in that he does it on purpose. I think he is just one of those people that constantly shoot for the stars even when its just way out of touch with reality. To me it would be like NASA saying ok in 4 years from now where going to land a man on Neptune... it just wouldn't matter how much money they threw at it.
My main issue with Roberts is his game history. We all remember WC cause they where awsome games. WC4 with Mark Hamill in it... that was insane. The first time I saw Mark in a VIDEO game, it was the coolest thing I ever saw at that point. Thing is we all remember it that way. The video games largest producers though remember it as the project that was supposed to cost 10 mil (which was an Insane budget for a game of that time... like 4-10x normal.) that ended up costing almost 30. We left Origin/EA after WC4... and claimed its cause they didn't want to give him time/money to make what he wanted. I think everyone knew at the time that he was really fired.
His movie company just reinforces what I think the guy is like. Looks at how much money he burned making all those movies. The first one they did Lucky Number Sleven was the only movie that had the right budget attached to it. However that one was co produced with the Weinstein Company... so no doubt they took care of that end of things. After that he did insane things like spend almost 50 million making lord of war... and even the last movie he did. Whos your Caddy ? Really he spent 8 Million making a movie like that... its not shocking it didn't turn any profit.
All well we'll play ED... and if SC ends up being a thing in a couple years perhaps it will be worth switching to.
I know I likely sound overly harsh on the guy. Honestly I don't think he is a con man... in that he does it on purpose. I think he is just one of those people that constantly shoot for the stars even when its just way out of touch with reality.
This is actually my main concern as well. While I was unfamiliar with the sums of money involved I had heard the constant extensions and delays because he had to get things "just right". I was more of an X-Wing player rather than a WC player in those days.
Even now, in SC you see some ship models that really should´ve been locked down months ago are STILL getting redone. They always give good compelling reasons such as new rendering tech that will ultimately make things faster and smoother, but I can´t help but think of all those delays in his previous games. At least he won´t run out of money, should he really need a few extra million he can always just offer up some capitals that would have to be made anyway. While I would not buy a cruiser or something equally huge I wouldn´t mind players owning a few, those things are sure to be lightning rods of player activity, for and against. Unlike others I just shrug at calling it p2w, can anyone really win a sim?
He´s probably aware of his shortcomings by now, he´s surrounded himself with lots of industry veterans (or so we are told, honestly I don´t keep track of who these people are) that will help him get things finished and working.
As far as his movies... the one I absolutely love is Outlander, but I don´t think it made much money either lol.
I heard about SC on the forums and was all sorts of hyped and pumped and ready to throw down the cash to buy.. a model of a ship in a fame that wasn't even close to being done . Seeing how much money the game has raised!!! And still only in what seems like alpha stage really made me stop and reconsider . I mean this is the guy who helped make one of my favorite RTS 's ( conquest frontier wars btw) and couldn't come up with enough cash to finish that out . Kickstarter is great of your a guy who has a great idea and needs a bit of help to finish it up, however 60+ mil and your still needing more?
Someone said its not cause he's stealing on purpose, but he's trying to build a rocket ship with all round parts . It just isn't going to happen . If it does, I'll be in line drooling as I try to steal your freighter while your offline
Every time a new game that's similar to the one your playing is supposed to be its killer, ie TOR was supposed to kill WoW, but guess who released a new xpac on all its servers, had long lines and a DDoS attack ? Here's a hint not TOR.
ya that one was one of the better sci fi B movies in the last few years.
Its also a really really good example of his main issue...
This is from IMDB
"Budget
$50,000,000 (estimated)"
I wouldn´t have put that anywhere near that high, maybe 20 million? I mean, the effects weren´t all that great and they used the classic "hide the monster" technique so the CGI use was minimal! Wonder where the money went?
I heard about SC on the forums and was all sorts of hyped and pumped and ready to throw down the cash to buy.. a model of a ship in a fame that wasn't even close to being done . Seeing how much money the game has raised!!! And still only in what seems like alpha stage really made me stop and reconsider . I mean this is the guy who helped make one of my favorite RTS 's ( conquest frontier wars btw) and couldn't come up with enough cash to finish that out . Kickstarter is great of your a guy who has a great idea and needs a bit of help to finish it up, however 60+ mil and your still needing more?
Someone said its not cause he's stealing on purpose, but he's trying to build a rocket ship with all round parts . It just isn't going to happen . If it does, I'll be in line drooling as I try to steal your freighter while your offline
Every time a new game that's similar to the one your playing is supposed to be its killer, ie TOR was supposed to kill WoW, but guess who released a new xpac on all its servers, had long lines and a DDoS attack ? Here's a hint not TOR.
Actually, the game is in Pre-Alpha stage atm :P, Also he isn't actually out an about asking for More money, he did at the beginning with the kickstarter which was the point. How ever when he noticed that the kickstarter went WAY better then he had figured, he then decided to just use crowd funding entirely for the development of the game.
An people are Still supporting it through pledges, some of them yes I agree are Ridiculous, but those in particular were also extremely limited *like 150ish total* and only the *super rich/I got more money then brains* types bought those lolz.
Even now people have been buying the pledges, which is totally there choice, and your not forced to buy an outrageous package, I spent $40, got the complete game, pre-alpha, alpha and beta access. You also get things added once every stretch goal is met, sometimes even before.
Also note that even though alot of people have bought some of the bigger pledges does not mean that they Really have an advantage, or that you can't get the same thing within the game. Once the game enters I believe beta the pledge store will go away. How ever everything with in the store is obtainable within the game via the ingames own currency. So say I just have an Aurora *starter type ship* I can still go out make some cash and get the Constellation later or even an Idris Corvette. Point is, SC is not a pay to win based game, more or less skill based, actually.
Also 61mill atm isn't all that ridiculous when you consider the fact that he now has over 280+ employee's. So say on average there yearly take home is 60k-100k *based on skill sets, degree's etc etc* that's 16.8mill-28mil just to pay them there wages, not including overtime :P lolz.
Then you have all the equipment needed to produce the game, rendering, sound production physic's etc etc, that's ALOT of hardware and its not cheap, cause you know they didn't go out and buy a bunch of AMD APU based systems to do all the rendering etc etc for the game lolz.
Then you have the expenses of using outside help, such as music, voice overs, etc there not cheap, especially if you want high quality. Then there is the costs of there trips world wide to events like PAX or E3 etc etc, which is also there marketing so they tie together, smart way to do it actually o.o. There's probably more expenses but wouldn't know them without looking them up lolz. Point is 60+ mill for the development of a AAA game anymore is pretty common place, just look at SW:TOR or Destiny and GTA 5 :O.
Also note that even though alot of people have bought some of the bigger pledges does not mean that they Really have an advantage,
While not an advantage there is an undeniable pleasure to be had in walking around the hangar seeing your ships, getting in them and flying them in Arena Commander. I won´t deny I was breathless for a moment when I went into the hangar for the first time and saw my fighter. Its like having your own X-Wing, the larger ships put the Millennium Falcon to shame.
Personally, I believe the hangar module was and is the greatest marketing tool Star Citizen has. Actually seeing "your" ships touches you in a primal level and you want more. First, you get your basic package, its the game and a starter ship. You think you´re fine with that then you get curious, go into the hangar, think its "quite spiffing!" and then you see other ships in youtube videos, and then it all goes downhill.... you want upgrade to a better cooler ship, then when you get the small ship you really want you decide to can get another one, maybe even a big one.....then you´re lost!
Also 61mill atm isn't all that ridiculous when you consider the fact that he now has over 280+ employee's. So say on average there yearly take home is 60k-100k *based on skill sets, degree's etc etc* that's 16.8mill-28mil just to pay them there wages, not including overtime :P lolz.
Mass Effect 3... budget just under 40 million.
World of War**aft... 60 Million.
Cryis 3 (All Console and PC versions including cost of a new Engine) 62 Million.
Just to be clear at 61 millions. (and people seem to be not all that worried about the might need more money stuff)... SC is so far on a list of the most expensive games ever made... 21st. (also most of the games ahead of SC on that list are including Marketing costs.)
To really put in in perspective games like Rift, DC universe, all the call of duty games (few are higher on the most expensive ever list cause of marketing costs none cost more then 50mil to make though), where are less expensive to develop then SC has been so far with at least 2 more years of work to go. In fact the first 2 mass effect games combined cost less to make then SC has so far. Mass Effect 3 with the all star voice acting cast cost under 40 million.
Yes video games cost a ton of money to develop... and some companies choose to spend movie marketing money on them. Really though 60+million for a game with no costs involving actual engine production... or IPs to licence... or any major voice talent to pay for (unless he has some big announcements there later) I would say its a bit much.
Just a side note to... we all Know Roberts famously (or infamously) left Origin cause he claims EA wouldn't let him spend the money to make his games. On that list of most expensive games ever made... EA or Developers they own account for a good 25% of the top 50. (only a couple in the top 20 though, they seem to do a good job of keeping things from spiraling but still spend 30-50 pretty routinely)
I think a more likely contender for Startrek Online Space PvP would be something like Dreadnought (if that game actually works out and gets done). STO is tall ship combat. It has a pretty unique gameplay. And it also grants you relative quick access to the endgame tier of ships.
Star Citizen will have an economy and all that, and the tall ships need a crew (not just a symbolic one like with Bridge Officer powers in STO), and there won't be any "space magic" powers (I am not just talking about Gravity Well and the like, I am also talking about stuff like Cannon Rapid Fire - if you want fast firing cannons, you need to buy fast-firing cannons).
So I think it will be very different. Probably also a lot of fun, but a different type of experience over all.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think a more likely contender for Startrek Online Space PvP would be something like Dreadnought (if that game actually works out and gets done). STO is tall ship combat. It has a pretty unique gameplay. And it also grants you relative quick access to the endgame tier of ships.
Star Citizen will have an economy and all that, and the tall ships need a crew (not just a symbolic one like with Bridge Officer powers in STO), and there won't be any "space magic" powers (I am not just talking about Gravity Well and the like, I am also talking about stuff like Cannon Rapid Fire - if you want fast firing cannons, you need to buy fast-firing cannons).
So I think it will be very different. Probably also a lot of fun, but a different type of experience over all.
Seems like it could be a really fun game. Seems to me like its a MW 1000 feet off the ground sort of.
I am sure it will be that same type of F2P model for sure will be worth checking out if they get it released.
I wouldn´t have put that anywhere near that high, maybe 20 million? I mean, the effects weren´t all that great and they used the classic "hide the monster" technique so the CGI use was minimal! Wonder where the money went?
Not that I've seen the movie, but if you're not seeing it in the effects, not seeing it in any A-List actors/actresses, then it's filling someone's account real well. I don't think they pay writers that much, so that's not lining their pockets, either :cool:
Not that I've seen the movie, but if you're not seeing it in the effects, not seeing it in any A-List actors/actresses, then it's filling someone's account real well. I don't think they pay writers that much, so that's not lining their pockets, either :cool:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-remington/outlander-somehow-unfortu_b_432496.html
From that article;
"(American audiences felt that way too. The movie had a production budget of $50 million and made a grand total of $166,000 in American theaters, along with another $6 million abroad. Battlefield Earth made nearly five times as much. That makes it one of the more legendary flops of the decade.)"
To be fair to Roberts though this was a movie that ended up being produced by a bunch of companies. I think it had a few issues along the way. Still hard to explain how anyone let the budget get up to 50 mil.
I think a more likely contender for Startrek Online Space PvP would be something like Dreadnought (if that game actually works out and gets done). STO is tall ship combat. It has a pretty unique gameplay. And it also grants you relative quick access to the endgame tier of ships.
Star Citizen will have an economy and all that, and the tall ships need a crew (not just a symbolic one like with Bridge Officer powers in STO), and there won't be any "space magic" powers (I am not just talking about Gravity Well and the like, I am also talking about stuff like Cannon Rapid Fire - if you want fast firing cannons, you need to buy fast-firing cannons).
So I think it will be very different. Probably also a lot of fun, but a different type of experience over all.
Had not heard about Dreadnought, and followed MR's link. Having abandoned any hope for ST PvP a while back, have been looking for my next space PvP fix - and believe I've found it - thank you MR for posting! Here's a more in depth link of a dev interview with arena footage for those who may be interested. Unlike SC / ED, this is capital ship combat.
I agree for the most part with Hus, I really don't dig this trend towards preordering and Kickstarters and whatnot. It encourages the marketing hype machine in gaming which seems to be getting closer to scam territory year by year.
With regard to Star Citizen in particular though I think it's probably a mix of both. The lead dev sounds very much like the Peter Molyneux type, someone who is for the most part sincere in his aims but whose ambition far, far outstretches his reach. Hell, Peter pulled it off like a million times from Black and White to Fable 1 and people were still lapping up every ridiculous word he said.
I think that if Star Citizen was a Star Trek game...for example Starfleet Captain, or UFP Citizen...well, all those who are criticizing this game would shout that is about to happen a miracle!:D
JUMPING JELLYBEANS!!!
Can anyone even guess at the kind of crowdfunding levels Star Citizen would have if it was based on the trek IP?
At this rate, star citizen is probably 2 years away, or 3 years away. STO will be dead before that if they don't patch and fix the issues causing dead PVP and nearly dead PVE.
At this rate, star citizen is probably 2 years away, or 3 years away. STO will be dead before that if they don't patch and fix the issues causing dead PVP and nearly dead PVE.
The dead PvE is really the result of their own methods of expansion. Adding new maps works great for a while, but it means your player base gets diluted into more and more maps.
Comments
Your Take on CRs history is very misleading, I don't think you know or realized that he has already worked for EA in the past. He started his own company to get away from there BS that is, get it done at this date at any cost. An I like that he doesn't think the same way that MS and EA do, and that he actually wants to produce a game that hasn't been done this way before. Even ED, though similar wont have the same mechanics as SC. Still each look great but its still down to preference.
Here are some useful tidbits of Info for anyone willing to read up on it :P.
Chris Roberts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Roberts_%28game_developer%29
Freelancer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freelancer_%28video_game%29
Star Citizen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpiRFP7T2c
Interview with CR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQV5DKmYFCc
Some SC Info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M995Mqr67E&list=PLVct2QDhDrB3ZFJgUystJmvMXivxG-r3V
Also it is Very unlikely that CR would work for or sellout to EA, since he has worked with them in the past and didn't like there business practice, same thing happened with MS, then he went on a 8-10 year hiatus making movies, then came back to the game development scene with star citizen.
More horse-hockey.
As I remember it starlancer was running behind schedule and over budget due to technical problems involved in getting some new features that were promised integrated into the game, DA's stockholders were impatient for release and demanded DA release the game 'as-is', and CR refused, opting to instead distance himself from the project. The project (and company) were sold to MS to recover the investors interest and MS decided not to complete the project as designed but instead to scrap most of it and rewrite it for a quicker release.
If you really want to trash Chris Roberts, at least be honest about the facts.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Luckily there are more than a few alternatives on the horizon.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=933661
Chris did indeed work for a developer that was bought out by EA. Yes he worked for origin and a few years before he left your right EA picked them up in a stock swap deal. Thing is Chris and his tendency to spend millions more then he should is partly why Rich and Rob the brothers that ran Origin had to sell out. They considered going public, in the end took the EA deal. At that time though frankly EA was no where near the "evil" corp people consider it now. EA had a lot of great people then. In fact a bunch of actual EA (not developers from a bought out house) left EA and founded Warthog. Who Roberts paid to pretty much ghost write starlancer. (Starlancer was almost 100% a Warthog created game).
Anyway I won't argue with you... I have made my points and backed what I could up with fact. Its ok the cult of Roberts is well snowed. I'm sure if I had a video of Roberts talking about ripping people off and doing his best evil laugh you wouldn't believe it to be true. lol
To be frank I'm not sure he really is planning to rip people off. Myself I believe it is more a case of a guy who would love to do all sorts of things but has no idea how to make that happen and turn a profit all at the same time. Of course he has fewer worries with SC as all his "investment" dollars have been gifted to him. That to me is where the entire model gets a little grey. I mean if he never releases anything is Cloud Imp liable. The answer is yes they are. This year more then a few failed kickstarter projects have been sued in class action suits... or litigated directly by state govs.
Not trolling mentioning that Cloud Imp would be libel if they never release an actual full version of SC. (his lawyers could argue the tech demos they have released so far mean any "contract" with his "investors" has been met... still I don't think they could win if they never release). I only mention it so hoping you will remember this post 2-3 years from now. When you hear rumblings of about a class action make sure you get in on it.
I haven't said anything untrue. Roberts left Origin... not to found DA. He left because EA fired him plain and simple. They fired him not because he is a terrible "artist" they fired him because he doesn't know how to spend a budget in away that allows him(or his employer) to turn a profit. He was let go not because WC4 sucked... but because he spent 3x more then he was supposed to making it. Next time your boss asks you to go down to the local supply story to pick up 100 dollars worth of supplies and you come back having put over 1000 dollars on there amex. Expect to be looking for work.
The main "investor" funny enough on the game side of DA was Microsoft. Who took another 2 years to release Freelancer after buying Roberts out. Yep sounds like they where cracking the whip to make sure the game just got out.
Many of the video games words personalities from that time period. Where good at promoting themselves. Most of them got lucky and had there name attached to entire styles of games. Guys like Romero Roberts Meier's Carmak... Romero and Roberts I would say where the kings of the vaporware... guys like Meiers where wise with trademarks and hiring the proper developers to develop the same style of game over and over. Carmak had some cool ideas and is no doubt a genious. Lets all be honest though ID made some great games but they always hyped there engines much more then they deserved. As interesting and sometimes ahead of there time ID engines where... it was still Sweeney and EPIC that powered generations of games with the unreal engine. (and he never self promoted like those other guys.. almost like he know he was just the head of a group of guys that got the job done.)
Anyway seems all I do on these forums anymore is talk about other games.
Sit back and wait for the final product.
The whole Kickstarter thing I have never felt right about.
On the other hand, I´m 100% sure no developer or investor would dare give him the cash to try and make what he´s saying he can make. Not saying its a great situation, but it is what it is.
You don´t need to look further than what STO has devolved into to see why people are all too willing to throw money his way in the hopes of getting something good out of it.
Think 60 million is a lot? Think about this, if player´s hadn´t been burned by so many AAA pre-orders, how much more money would SC have raised by now? I hear people say that they just will not, ever, buy a game before its complete anymore.
I was fortunate enough that the amounts of cash Roberts was asking for were within my budget so I was happy to throw it his way. If he can deliver half of what he claims i´ll consider it a win. I mean, what else am I going to spend my game cash on? Cryptic?
I think he means the lockboxes we open paid for it. So in essence we are ALL paying for Neverwinter, a game I for one, do not play or plan to play at all.
I thought ED launched the 16th not the 14th? Not gonna complain if it launches 2 days early though! Got your HOTAS already Antonio?
All I can say is WOW man!
I always appreciate such a well researched and well thought out expose. Definitely worth thinking about.
ya I guess I sort of knew what he was meaning.
Ya no HOTAS here... or any joystick of anykind. I have never honestly been a big joystick person. I had a few over the years and always ended up with my fingers all over a keyboard instead. We'll see though if ED sucks me in I may break down and get something.
I know I likely sound overly harsh on the guy. Honestly I don't think he is a con man... in that he does it on purpose. I think he is just one of those people that constantly shoot for the stars even when its just way out of touch with reality. To me it would be like NASA saying ok in 4 years from now where going to land a man on Neptune... it just wouldn't matter how much money they threw at it.
My main issue with Roberts is his game history. We all remember WC cause they where awsome games. WC4 with Mark Hamill in it... that was insane. The first time I saw Mark in a VIDEO game, it was the coolest thing I ever saw at that point. Thing is we all remember it that way. The video games largest producers though remember it as the project that was supposed to cost 10 mil (which was an Insane budget for a game of that time... like 4-10x normal.) that ended up costing almost 30. We left Origin/EA after WC4... and claimed its cause they didn't want to give him time/money to make what he wanted. I think everyone knew at the time that he was really fired.
His movie company just reinforces what I think the guy is like. Looks at how much money he burned making all those movies. The first one they did Lucky Number Sleven was the only movie that had the right budget attached to it. However that one was co produced with the Weinstein Company... so no doubt they took care of that end of things.
All well we'll play ED... and if SC ends up being a thing in a couple years perhaps it will be worth switching to.
This is actually my main concern as well. While I was unfamiliar with the sums of money involved I had heard the constant extensions and delays because he had to get things "just right". I was more of an X-Wing player rather than a WC player in those days.
Even now, in SC you see some ship models that really should´ve been locked down months ago are STILL getting redone. They always give good compelling reasons such as new rendering tech that will ultimately make things faster and smoother, but I can´t help but think of all those delays in his previous games. At least he won´t run out of money, should he really need a few extra million he can always just offer up some capitals that would have to be made anyway. While I would not buy a cruiser or something equally huge I wouldn´t mind players owning a few, those things are sure to be lightning rods of player activity, for and against. Unlike others I just shrug at calling it p2w, can anyone really win a sim?
He´s probably aware of his shortcomings by now, he´s surrounded himself with lots of industry veterans (or so we are told, honestly I don´t keep track of who these people are) that will help him get things finished and working.
As far as his movies... the one I absolutely love is Outlander, but I don´t think it made much money either lol.
Its also a really really good example of his main issue...
This is from IMDB
"Budget
$50,000,000 (estimated)"
Someone said its not cause he's stealing on purpose, but he's trying to build a rocket ship with all round parts . It just isn't going to happen . If it does, I'll be in line drooling as I try to steal your freighter while your offline
Every time a new game that's similar to the one your playing is supposed to be its killer, ie TOR was supposed to kill WoW, but guess who released a new xpac on all its servers, had long lines and a DDoS attack ? Here's a hint not TOR.
I wouldn´t have put that anywhere near that high, maybe 20 million? I mean, the effects weren´t all that great and they used the classic "hide the monster" technique so the CGI use was minimal! Wonder where the money went?
Actually, the game is in Pre-Alpha stage atm :P, Also he isn't actually out an about asking for More money, he did at the beginning with the kickstarter which was the point. How ever when he noticed that the kickstarter went WAY better then he had figured, he then decided to just use crowd funding entirely for the development of the game.
An people are Still supporting it through pledges, some of them yes I agree are Ridiculous, but those in particular were also extremely limited *like 150ish total* and only the *super rich/I got more money then brains* types bought those lolz.
Even now people have been buying the pledges, which is totally there choice, and your not forced to buy an outrageous package, I spent $40, got the complete game, pre-alpha, alpha and beta access. You also get things added once every stretch goal is met, sometimes even before.
Also note that even though alot of people have bought some of the bigger pledges does not mean that they Really have an advantage, or that you can't get the same thing within the game. Once the game enters I believe beta the pledge store will go away. How ever everything with in the store is obtainable within the game via the ingames own currency. So say I just have an Aurora *starter type ship* I can still go out make some cash and get the Constellation later or even an Idris Corvette. Point is, SC is not a pay to win based game, more or less skill based, actually.
Also 61mill atm isn't all that ridiculous when you consider the fact that he now has over 280+ employee's. So say on average there yearly take home is 60k-100k *based on skill sets, degree's etc etc* that's 16.8mill-28mil just to pay them there wages, not including overtime :P lolz.
Then you have all the equipment needed to produce the game, rendering, sound production physic's etc etc, that's ALOT of hardware and its not cheap, cause you know they didn't go out and buy a bunch of AMD APU based systems to do all the rendering etc etc for the game lolz.
Then you have the expenses of using outside help, such as music, voice overs, etc there not cheap, especially if you want high quality. Then there is the costs of there trips world wide to events like PAX or E3 etc etc, which is also there marketing so they tie together, smart way to do it actually o.o. There's probably more expenses but wouldn't know them without looking them up lolz. Point is 60+ mill for the development of a AAA game anymore is pretty common place, just look at SW:TOR or Destiny and GTA 5 :O.
While not an advantage there is an undeniable pleasure to be had in walking around the hangar seeing your ships, getting in them and flying them in Arena Commander. I won´t deny I was breathless for a moment when I went into the hangar for the first time and saw my fighter. Its like having your own X-Wing, the larger ships put the Millennium Falcon to shame.
Personally, I believe the hangar module was and is the greatest marketing tool Star Citizen has. Actually seeing "your" ships touches you in a primal level and you want more. First, you get your basic package, its the game and a starter ship. You think you´re fine with that then you get curious, go into the hangar, think its "quite spiffing!" and then you see other ships in youtube videos, and then it all goes downhill.... you want upgrade to a better cooler ship, then when you get the small ship you really want you decide to can get another one, maybe even a big one.....then you´re lost!
Mass Effect 3... budget just under 40 million.
World of War**aft... 60 Million.
Cryis 3 (All Console and PC versions including cost of a new Engine) 62 Million.
Just to be clear at 61 millions. (and people seem to be not all that worried about the might need more money stuff)... SC is so far on a list of the most expensive games ever made... 21st. (also most of the games ahead of SC on that list are including Marketing costs.)
To really put in in perspective games like Rift, DC universe, all the call of duty games (few are higher on the most expensive ever list cause of marketing costs none cost more then 50mil to make though), where are less expensive to develop then SC has been so far with at least 2 more years of work to go. In fact the first 2 mass effect games combined cost less to make then SC has so far. Mass Effect 3 with the all star voice acting cast cost under 40 million.
Yes video games cost a ton of money to develop... and some companies choose to spend movie marketing money on them. Really though 60+million for a game with no costs involving actual engine production... or IPs to licence... or any major voice talent to pay for (unless he has some big announcements there later) I would say its a bit much.
Just a side note to... we all Know Roberts famously (or infamously) left Origin cause he claims EA wouldn't let him spend the money to make his games. On that list of most expensive games ever made... EA or Developers they own account for a good 25% of the top 50. (only a couple in the top 20 though, they seem to do a good job of keeping things from spiraling but still spend 30-50 pretty routinely)
Star Citizen will have an economy and all that, and the tall ships need a crew (not just a symbolic one like with Bridge Officer powers in STO), and there won't be any "space magic" powers (I am not just talking about Gravity Well and the like, I am also talking about stuff like Cannon Rapid Fire - if you want fast firing cannons, you need to buy fast-firing cannons).
So I think it will be very different. Probably also a lot of fun, but a different type of experience over all.
Seems like it could be a really fun game. Seems to me like its a MW 1000 feet off the ground sort of.
I am sure it will be that same type of F2P model for sure will be worth checking out if they get it released.
Not that I've seen the movie, but if you're not seeing it in the effects, not seeing it in any A-List actors/actresses, then it's filling someone's account real well. I don't think they pay writers that much, so that's not lining their pockets, either :cool:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-remington/outlander-somehow-unfortu_b_432496.html
From that article;
"(American audiences felt that way too. The movie had a production budget of $50 million and made a grand total of $166,000 in American theaters, along with another $6 million abroad. Battlefield Earth made nearly five times as much. That makes it one of the more legendary flops of the decade.)"
To be fair to Roberts though this was a movie that ended up being produced by a bunch of companies. I think it had a few issues along the way. Still hard to explain how anyone let the budget get up to 50 mil.
Had not heard about Dreadnought, and followed MR's link. Having abandoned any hope for ST PvP a while back, have been looking for my next space PvP fix - and believe I've found it - thank you MR for posting! Here's a more in depth link of a dev interview with arena footage for those who may be interested. Unlike SC / ED, this is capital ship combat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYVcad54xWw
They are talking about an 'early 2015' beta launch, so hopefully by the summer anyways.
Kill Feddie.
Waff
With regard to Star Citizen in particular though I think it's probably a mix of both. The lead dev sounds very much like the Peter Molyneux type, someone who is for the most part sincere in his aims but whose ambition far, far outstretches his reach. Hell, Peter pulled it off like a million times from Black and White to Fable 1 and people were still lapping up every ridiculous word he said.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Have fun kill bad guys.
JUMPING JELLYBEANS!!!
Can anyone even guess at the kind of crowdfunding levels Star Citizen would have if it was based on the trek IP?
The dead PvE is really the result of their own methods of expansion. Adding new maps works great for a while, but it means your player base gets diluted into more and more maps.