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Mission fail optionals need to be elite only.

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  • gameleechgameleech Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Upgrade. The merest mention of that word now makes me hurl. It used to be fun to work on upgrading your gear and ship. Now its synonomous with pay or play to an extreme.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • oridjerraaoridjerraa Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    wrenfu wrote: »
    You just need to upgrade your gear and it'll six the queue problems, silly entitled players :rolleyes:

    These silly 'entitled' players are what keep STO afloat. Just because you live in mommies basement and can buy millions of dil a month to spend on upgrades dose not mean your a majority, otherwise the queues wouldn't have a problem, would it, smartguy!
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I have to agree.

    I would rather see Optional Objectives actually be.. Optional.

    Normal Mode - No Optional Objectives

    Advanced - Optional Objectives, failure results in slightly reduced rewards but the mission continues.

    Elite - All objectives are required.


    There are ways of making the Optionals important that don't involve ending the mission in failure.

    this would be perfect.

    elite players are just a minority, but all the players are considered as elite players.
  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    failure conditions don't need to be removed, some of them just need to be changed. mostly the ones with timers that only encourage a "more dps" mindset

    the conditions in conduit, for example, I like as it forces players to think beyond the usual "shoot at everything until it dies" and actually use different tactics

    removing the failure conditions entirely just makes it same as normal but with more enemy hp, which is harder but still boring, no thanks
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  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    alaric63 wrote: »
    I truely can't believe the complaints. It astounds me how players, weeks into an expansion, expect to dominate. What happens 6 months down the line? They nerf the STF's you have all the items you need and you'll be crying about being bored, and that Cryptic needs to get more content out.


    As you and the other players around learn the fights and get thier gear in order, they will become easier. The new system is designed to be a progression, not a walk over. If you covent the BNP's or the Ancient Power Cells, work your character until you can achieve them. DOn;t expect an already very lenient game to lower itself to your level. Get better.

    there is no excuse for poor game design and this is what we are seeing here this is not about gear this is about game design.

    The fail timers is just well dumb period end of sentance you cannot learn what you need to learn by roaring through a normal one shotting everything you dont learn strategy that way you learn strategy by being given a puzzle and trying to solve it, but you can't solve the puzzle if you are busy failing and being booted out and being made to wait 1 hour before trying to attack the puzzle again. Your also talking to someone who can do most of the advanced and some of the elites depending on which character i am using and if the character is in a guild or not :)


    The only reason people are able to conquer ANY of the q's now is because they had enough exposure pre delta rising and had time to figure out how these puzzles work. No i dont consider blowing everythign up in 10 seconds before the timer runs out the way to beat most of these instances in fact I know there are other ways (because I have done it many many times) but with the implementation of the timers there really is only one way to beat the puzzle and that is to ignore the puzzle build a group with ships that can dish out enough dps to one shot everything so they can beat a timer thereby bypassing the puzzle. This is just bad game design period end of sentance.
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  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    oridjerraa wrote: »
    snip

    Players should be reminded of their own shortcoming in all dificulties. If you are to bad to play a difficulty, settle for one below.
  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    there is no excuse for poor game design and this is what we are seeing here this is not about gear this is about game design.

    The fail timers is just well dumb period end of sentance you cannot learn what you need to learn by roaring through a normal one shotting everything you dont learn strategy that way you learn strategy by being given a puzzle and trying to solve it, but you can't solve the puzzle if you are busy failing and being booted out and being made to wait 1 hour before trying to attack the puzzle again. Your also talking to someone who can do most of the advanced and some of the elites depending on which character i am using and if the character is in a guild or not :)


    The only reason people are able to conquer ANY of the q's now is because they had enough exposure pre delta rising and had time to figure out how these puzzles work. No i dont consider blowing everythign up in 10 seconds before the timer runs out the way to beat most of these instances in fact I know there are other ways (because I have done it many many times) but with the implementation of the timers there really is only one way to beat the puzzle and that is to ignore the puzzle build a group with ships that can dish out enough dps to one shot everything so they can beat a timer thereby bypassing the puzzle. This is just bad game design period end of sentance.


    although I agree some of the conditions should be changed, unless I am missing something, the failure conditions on advanced are the same as the optionals on normal. players should have ample time to study what is required for the next difficulty when they play on normal
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    alaric63 wrote: »
    Your whole post is opinion. There needs to be a challenge, and there needs to be mechanics that help the content to stay relevent. Those are my opinions. Learn to overcome the design. That's the task ahead of us. Get better.

    I guess you didnt read it and game design is not opinion its something that you learn and that they even teach in schools.
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  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    although I agree some of the conditions should be changed, unless I am missing something, the failure conditions on advanced are the same as the optionals on normal. players should have ample time to study what is required for the next difficulty when they play on normal

    What players will learn in most of the normal is "blow it all up fast" but that wont work in elite or advanced. There are a few like say mirror event that can fail if you dont close rifts or something but most can be beat by blowing this up fast in normal so they will carry this to advanced and fail because that is not the puzzle. However they are going to be overpowered in normal so wont actually learn the techniques needed.

    That is why we have this "dps club" or whatevers because EVERYONE thinks that is how you "win" in this game but in fact no its not its a way to bypass certain things. conduit for instance and a few others can be "won" by simply being able to blow stuff up fast, but that is not really the puzzle now is it? The puzzle is about the nano probe ships and how they heal.

    I am sorry but their q's are just sloppy lazy game design instead of them taking the time to design some truly "elite" content for those wanting more of a challenge they just slapped some hp on mobs and added a few stupid timers. Its not hard to build a high dps ship and group with another few people and one shot everything on the contrary its easy as pie. Where is the challenge? how is anything they have done "hard" or even presents any kind of need to use your head?
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    alaric63 wrote: »
    I read it, I just disagree with you. There are infinite ways to design gameplay. I hope they teach that too. One of the points I was trying to make is; there is no "Period end of disscution" issues here. It is all opnion and different people enjoy different things. Lighten up, you are not an authority, you are just another gamer. Oh yeah.... Get better.

    dude remove the trolls and no its bad game design ask anyone who is in the industry who is worth their salt. They took a short cut nothing about this is hard and no i dont need to get better you see I can do them already :D
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  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ummax wrote: »
    What players will learn in most of the normal is "blow it all up fast" but that wont work in elite or advanced. There are a few like say mirror event that can fail if you dont close rifts or something but most can be beat by blowing this up fast in normal so they will carry this to advanced and fail because that is not the puzzle. However they are going to be overpowered in normal so wont actually learn the techniques needed.

    That is why we have this "dps club" or whatevers because EVERYONE thinks that is how you "win" in this game but in fact no its not its a way to bypass certain things. conduit for instance and a few others can be "won" by simply being able to blow stuff up fast, but that is not really the puzzle now is it? The puzzle is about the nano probe ships and how they heal.

    I am sorry but their q's are just sloppy lazy game design instead of them taking the time to design some truly "elite" content for those wanting more of a challenge they just slapped some hp on mobs and added a few stupid timers. Its not hard to build a high dps ship and group with another few people and one shot everything on the contrary its easy as pie. Where is the challenge? how is anything they have done "hard" or even presents any kind of need to use your head?

    if that's what players take away from normal than its a failure on the part of the players, not the game. As for laziness, laziness would be removing the failure conditions entirely leaving us only with mobs with more health as the difference between normal and advanced. I think you may be arguing on the wrong side
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    if that's what players take away from normal than its a failure on the part of the players, not the game. As for laziness, laziness would be removing the failure conditions entirely leaving us only with mobs with more health as the difference between normal and advanced. I think you may be arguing on the wrong side

    lol well lets agree to disagree

    the point i am making is that there is nothing they can do to make these q's an actual challenge to anyone wanting 'more of a challenge' so instead of designing content for those wanting a challenge they made these hp bags and stuffed a few timers on existing instances in an effort to make them "hard"

    What they did to was give me carpel tunnel syndrome, but its not hard. Building a dps ship is not in fact nothing in this game is 'hard' that is the point. Grind is not 'hard' grind is meant to slow people down but its just grind. I enjoy grinding though because I have a stressful job with deadlines in place and login to games and "relax and grind".

    The only thing they achieved in my case anyhow is show me that they need to put a bit more thought into what they are doing. I think the q system was a huge mistake on their part. Instead of rewarding people who do a flawless run on elite and stuff like that they punish players which is the opposite of what good game design is meant to do. It wont make those players 'get better' it will simply make them do something else.

    The 1 hours penalty is hilarious that means anyone whos main source of fun in this game was q's (of which i am not one of them .. i actually prefer the open battle zone format) is being discouraged from remaining logged in. They will actually do a few q's and be finished in 10 minutes possibly fail them all and logout because they have a 1 hour penalty lol. Its possible they may never return especially if this is what they experience more then once. LoL isn't the purpose of game design to engage the player and not make him logout and go download something else? :D

    When I realized what was happening with these systems and the one hour penalty I had a hearty belly laugh because some poor schmo's are just logging in spending 5 minutes top q'ing and failing and then logging out for an hour .. and then well after an hour are they gonna remember to login? LoL hehe NO
  • toadgoadertoadgoader Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Remove the boot on fail... and instead cripple the rewards for missing the optionals.

    Example: Conduit there are two optionals
    1. Prevent the portals from being healed by the probes
    2. Eliminate the spheres within a time limit.

    Reward system. If you miss 1 optional receive 75% of Dil and down grade the ultra rare crafting drop to blue

    If you miss both optionals receive 50% Dil and the bonus crafting drop is now green


    All other rewards stay the same... now you still have a penalty for sucking but it will still give a reward for attempting to play the mission...

    In the current format (boot for mistake) no one in incentivized to learn and get better... the incentive is to not play at all!
  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I do agree booting upon failure is too harsh, maybe a "3 strikes" type of thing

    fail a condition, everyone starts over again, fail 3 times get booted 1 hr lockout

    there does need to be a bit more leeway in that area
  • rygelx16rygelx16 Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Even a full mission failure shouldn't kick the team out. Why can't it just reset so the team can try again? Like every other game ever. Then people can adjust and learn, maybe even get better at the game build some teamwork skills. I wonder sometimes if the devs have ever played any games.
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I do agree booting upon failure is too harsh, maybe a "3 strikes" type of thing

    fail a condition, everyone starts over again, fail 3 times get booted 1 hr lockout

    there does need to be a bit more leeway in that area

    Like the original Vortex...you got so many chances to stop the probes before the mission failed. It's too easy to lose and too hard to win.
  • clooney002clooney002 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    100% agree with this post, remove these mandatory optionals from Advanced and call it a day.
  • f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rimmarie wrote: »
    Subbing (Gold Account) gets you 500 zen too. Not just Lifetime

    Did you not get your zen when you were subbing?

    An alternative , If I may, is also to just spend the same 15 bucks, on zen itself. Granted, you have to buy the EC cap removal, and the other downside, is you can only sell on the exchange items up to 10 Million, but it is doable.

    I have 16 toons right now, 300 day vet (even though I was here, during the launch and Beta) , so zen itself isn't out of the question through just doffing.

    I can easily get 3000 zen every month, and again that in Dilithium for upgrades and what not. Concentrate on one toon, Get them to 60+ and upgraded, buy a new ship, and start over with the next toon.

    All this being said, I 'May" go back to a sub account , if Cryptic keeps working more towards the players, in respect to the problems we had the last few weeks. But even If I hit the 1000 day thing, I'd probably stop the sub altogether.

    Just trying to offer some options. Character slots are not that bad on the C-store, so it may help others get some of the new shinies.
    My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
  • talientalien Member Posts: 712 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Required optionals is just a bad idea, it really does promote "MOAR DPS" as the solution to everything. Why bother with crowd control when it still leaves them alive after your Gravwell, TBR, etc. ends? Not to mention skills like Gravwell are almost as worthless as Torpedoes as a source of damage post DR no matter how high you pump your particle generator skill simply because enemies have so much HP.

    Can't stop the Probes from getting to the gate? MOAR DPS to kill them faster.

    Can't take down the Transformer before the Nanite Spheres get to it? MOAR DPS to kill it faster.

    Can't keep the Kang alive while the rest of the team takes out the Cubes? MOAR DPS to kill the enemies faster.

    Can't rescue enough Romulans before the timer ends in Azure? MOAR DPS to kill the Tholians faster so you can rescue the ships. Yes I've been in groups that have tried having a couple people distract the Tholians and tank them while someone else disables the tractor beams. It doesn't work very well since the Tholians spam FAW and will hit the people doing the disabling.

    As people keep pointing out, more HP and more damage on enemies does not make anything harder, it just makes it take longer to kill them and less time for them to kill you. If you want difficulty take note of the mirror invasion. The AI ships heal and buff each other there, they use Eng Team and Extend Shields on whatever ally needs it and work together. THAT is the sort of thing that would make things challenging, not just bloating the HP and increasing damage output on the AI to force people into upgrading their equipment for MOAR DPS so you can kill them before they kill you.

    If cryptic can do it for one set of enemies they should do it for all of them.
  • f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    talien wrote: »
    Required optionals is just a bad idea, it really does promote "MOAR DPS" as the solution to everything. Why bother with crowd control when it still leaves them alive after your Gravwell, TBR, etc. ends? Not to mention skills like Gravwell are almost as worthless as Torpedoes as a source of damage post DR no matter how high you pump your particle generator skill simply because enemies have so much HP.

    Can't stop the Probes from getting to the gate? MOAR DPS to kill them faster.

    Can't take down the Transformer before the Nanite Spheres get to it? MOAR DPS to kill it faster.

    Can't keep the Kang alive while the rest of the team takes out the Cubes? MOAR DPS to kill the enemies faster.

    Can't rescue enough Romulans before the timer ends in Azure? MOAR DPS to kill the Tholians faster so you can rescue the ships. Yes I've been in groups that have tried having a couple people distract the Tholians and tank them while someone else disables the tractor beams. It doesn't work very well since the Tholians spam FAW and will hit the people doing the disabling.

    As people keep pointing out, more HP and more damage on enemies does not make anything harder, it just makes it take longer to kill them and less time for them to kill you. If you want difficulty take note of the mirror invasion. The AI ships heal and buff each other there, they use Eng Team and Extend Shields on whatever ally needs it and work together. THAT is the sort of thing that would make things challenging, not just bloating the HP and increasing damage output on the AI to force people into upgrading their equipment for MOAR DPS so you can kill them before they kill you.

    If cryptic can do it for one set of enemies they should do it for all of them.

    I so much agree with this sentiment. It's kind of a noggin scratcher, that an optional should be mandatory.
    My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    talien wrote: »
    Required optionals is just a bad idea, it really does promote "MOAR DPS" as the solution to everything. Why bother with crowd control when it still leaves them alive after your Gravwell, TBR, etc. ends? Not to mention skills like Gravwell are almost as worthless as Torpedoes as a source of damage post DR no matter how high you pump your particle generator skill simply because enemies have so much HP.

    Can't stop the Probes from getting to the gate? MOAR DPS to kill them faster.

    Can't take down the Transformer before the Nanite Spheres get to it? MOAR DPS to kill it faster.

    Can't keep the Kang alive while the rest of the team takes out the Cubes? MOAR DPS to kill the enemies faster.

    Can't rescue enough Romulans before the timer ends in Azure? MOAR DPS to kill the Tholians faster so you can rescue the ships. Yes I've been in groups that have tried having a couple people distract the Tholians and tank them while someone else disables the tractor beams. It doesn't work very well since the Tholians spam FAW and will hit the people doing the disabling.

    As people keep pointing out, more HP and more damage on enemies does not make anything harder, it just makes it take longer to kill them and less time for them to kill you. If you want difficulty take note of the mirror invasion. The AI ships heal and buff each other there, they use Eng Team and Extend Shields on whatever ally needs it and work together. THAT is the sort of thing that would make things challenging, not just bloating the HP and increasing damage output on the AI to force people into upgrading their equipment for MOAR DPS so you can kill them before they kill you.

    If cryptic can do it for one set of enemies they should do it for all of them.

    funny, because GW is exactly how I have been doing conduit advanced (successfully, in pugs no less), they may not die but they are not healing the transformer (and a hate to admit it but my ave DPS is quite pitiful), which is why we need these conditions. without them you could absolutely dps your way through them and as stated that's no fun

    and though I cant speak from personal experience, others in my fleet have done azure rescue, not by more dps but by *gasp* tanking the tholians away

    most players are failing BECAUSE they are trying to DPS their way through, because most of them could before on the old elites. now they cant and they need to adapt, give it time
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rygelx16 wrote: »
    Even a full mission failure shouldn't kick the team out. Why can't it just reset so the team can try again? Like every other game ever. Then people can adjust and learn, maybe even get better at the game build some teamwork skills. I wonder sometimes if the devs have ever played any games.

    yup that encourages some people to stick around and try try again.. maybe make a few new friends and learn the strategies, but this thing where you blink once and smile sideways and suddenly something happens and its all over and you have to get back in line. If you think people are going to do this for any length of time your mistaken.
    toadgoader wrote: »
    Remove the boot on fail... and instead cripple the rewards for missing the optionals.

    Example: Conduit there are two optionals
    1. Prevent the portals from being healed by the probes
    2. Eliminate the spheres within a time limit.

    Reward system. If you miss 1 optional receive 75% of Dil and down grade the ultra rare crafting drop to blue

    If you miss both optionals receive 50% Dil and the bonus crafting drop is now green


    All other rewards stay the same... now you still have a penalty for sucking but it will still give a reward for attempting to play the mission...

    In the current format (boot for mistake) no one in incentivized to learn and get better... the incentive is to not play at all!

    This is good game design if people remain and persist to somehow get to the end they need to get something and know if they can work out how to do it right that something if they get a perfect score would be "the awesome".
  • talientalien Member Posts: 712 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    funny, because GW is exactly how I have been doing conduit advanced (successfully, in pugs no less), they may not die but they are not healing the transformer (and a hate to admit it but my ave DPS is quite pitiful), which is why we need these conditions. without them you could absolutely dps your way through them and as stated that's no fun

    and though I cant speak from personal experience, others in my fleet have done azure rescue, not by more dps but by *gasp* tanking the tholians away

    most players are failing BECAUSE they are trying to DPS their way through, because most of them could before on the old elites. now they cant and they need to adapt, give it time

    GW buys some time, yes, but only works if the group has enough damage output to kill the transformer while your GW lasts. Not all groups will, hence a certain amount of damage output is still a must. The nanites cannot be distracted by shooting at them and causing them to switch targets and attack whoever damaged them, they will unerringly head for the transformer no matter what, leaving the only solution to either kill the transformer before they reach it or kill them before they reach it. Killing them is pointless since they spawn in endless waves, so the only way to do it is kill the transformer as fast as you can. How to do this? MOAR DPS.

    I pointed out that I've been in groups that have tried having someone tank the Tholians while someone else disables tractor beams, but it doesn't always work so well because Tholians spam FAW and it's kinda hard to disable tractor beams when you're being hit by random FAW shots. Solution? Kill the Tholians quickly so they don't keep hitting the people who are trying to disable tractor beams with random FAW shots. How to do this? MOAR DPS.

    Sure, you could try TBR and just fly through the blob of Tholians to push as many out of the way as you can, but half the time that ends up pushing some of them towards the disablers instead of away. GW doesn't do much but cram them all into one spot so they can be easier targeted by CSV or tickled by torp spread. MOAR DPS to kill them quickly is still the only solution with a guaranteed result.

    So, yes, adding stupid amounts of HP does nothing but require MOAR DPS. Perhaps if they actually rework the STFs to use objectives that can be better accomplished by a certain type of ship, or having enemies that can be intercepted and distracted to give people more time to accomplish an objective maybe we'd see people thinking of new ways to do things instead of the ONLY change being more HP and more damage output from enemies.
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I can handle getting less score for normal so less marks & dilithium but you should still get the needed items like borg neural processors that you need to get the best kit.
    the problem is you need the best kit to do the advanced cues but you cant get the best kit unless you play the advanced cues.
    catch 22.
    and of course things like BNP are bound to character so you cant buy them on the exchange or even win them on a character that has the good stuff and funnel them to an alt who doesn't.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    talien wrote: »
    GW buys some time, yes, but only works if the group has enough damage output to kill the transformer while your GW lasts. Not all groups will, hence a certain amount of damage output is still a must. The nanites cannot be distracted by shooting at them and causing them to switch targets and attack whoever damaged them, they will unerringly head for the transformer no matter what, leaving the only solution to either kill the transformer before they reach it or kill them before they reach it. Killing them is pointless since they spawn in endless waves, so the only way to do it is kill the transformer as fast as you can. How to do this? MOAR DPS.

    I pointed out that I've been in groups that have tried having someone tank the Tholians while someone else disables tractor beams, but it doesn't always work so well because Tholians spam FAW and it's kinda hard to disable tractor beams when you're being hit by random FAW shots. Solution? Kill the Tholians quickly so they don't keep hitting the people who are trying to disable tractor beams with random FAW shots. How to do this? MOAR DPS.

    Sure, you could try TBR and just fly through the blob of Tholians to push as many out of the way as you can, but half the time that ends up pushing some of them towards the disablers instead of away. GW doesn't do much but cram them all into one spot so they can be easier targeted by CSV or tickled by torp spread. MOAR DPS to kill them quickly is still the only solution with a guaranteed result.

    So, yes, adding stupid amounts of HP does nothing but require MOAR DPS. Perhaps if they actually rework the STFs to use objectives that can be better accomplished by a certain type of ship, or having enemies that can be intercepted and distracted to give people more time to accomplish an objective maybe we'd see people thinking of new ways to do things instead of the ONLY change being more HP and more damage output from enemies.

    I do agree that GW shouldn't be the only way, and the AI on the spheres should be changed so the are "tank-able", but these other points are questions of skill, not game mechanics or even gear. tholians can be tanked or TBR reliably (I have seen the later many times) it requires the right build of Boff skills and the player skill to use them correctly, which can be practiced on normal.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I’m in agreement with the OP. The way I see it after the latest patch the fail criteria still need to go asap on advanced mode. They are the reason why the whole queue lists remain empty. Nothing more, nothing less.

    - Any form of fail criteria due to wrong behaviour of a single player on team need to go.
    - Any form of fail timer cuz of insufficient gear need to go.

    If those changes were implemented the STF would be enjoyable by basically all players in game again. Advanced groups would hardly notice the difference but new players would get their opportunity. The most important part is: The “average team” would have its chance to form up successfully back and peeps from all stands would be interested to queue up again.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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