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  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I think that is overreacting. They just said they will look to balance it once they have seen how people go in them, and there are a ton of bonuses that we get as we level up. More HP, ship mastery, ship traits, specialisation and the better gear at 13 and 14 is massivly superior.

    What you see now, is not what you are going to see in a few weeks and that will be different to what you see months down the line. I highly suspect in a years time people will be complaining advanved is too easy. Don't panic. if it's a problem in a months time then you can make a more informed choice or lesve accurate feedback.

    Until those "months" are up it makes getting BNPs impossible unless you're in a pre-made. So now I have to wait over a month to get Delta Rep up, and then continue to wait while Cryptic "fixes" something that if you look on tribble forums we were complaining about anyway and they ignored.
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Rep gear is important but there is an abundance of ways to get excellent gear from the exchange, lockboxes, fleets, r&d, new level 13 drops, the upgrade system, the rep stores.

    Romulan and Tholian ones don't need elite items as they have none. Voth and undine have their battlezones so it's only the borg ones that people might struggle to get early on.

    So what you're saying is that Rep gear should now be gated to only the top 25% of the player base?

    Lets see... exchange you need dilithium, generally most people don't have the millions of credits that people are charging for top end gear. Lobi/lockbox requires cash... so you're saying pay2win gotcha. Fleet gear only if you're in a big enough fleet. Small fleets, well you're screwed and anyway if you're in a big enough fleet for fleet gear, you don't necessarily need to PUG. R&D requires mats from... you guessed it Advanced STFs or pay2win R&D boxes. Level 13 drops are a joke, upgrade system... yep pay2win, and rep stores probably, but not enough dps for advanced really.

    So it's either Pay2win or be average enough to basically get mid-line gear capped, making the rep system pretty much worthless.
  • zombiedeadheadedzombiedeadheaded Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The only STF that is 'too hard' (and only because it's stupidly tedious now), is CCA, everything else is fine, if your having problems with things like ISA, then you are the problem.
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Rep required items should drop from Normal STF... like during events. Limit 1 per day per STF for normal level.

    No way can a new player get Rep gear if you need High End 20k+ DPS to win in Advance STF.

    Do foks really want a L50 with a T4 or T5 ship without even Rep Gear? They would basically be trolling folks who do STFs at these new difficulty levels.

    That way it would encourage new players to do as many different STFs at normal as they can in a day. To Prevent farming, make it only drop if you have not completed the Rep yet. So if you have T5 rep already, no drop for that player.
  • w4lt3rw4lt3r Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Well, with the release of this expansion and seeing that STFs / Advanced / Elite queues are all about DPS now, I feel that my science captain has effectively become obsolete. Science ships in general seem to be a waste of a player slow now in the queues.

    Cryptic absolutely dropped the ball with the most ridiculous HP / resistance scaling on advanced mode.. I don't even want to see what Elite holds in. My ship being there already might signal that the instance is going to fail.

    Can we have a 1000 zen captain class change token or something?
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The only STF that is 'too hard' (and only because it's stupidly tedious now), is CCA, everything else is fine, if your having problems with things like ISA, then you are the problem.

    After yesterday’s kithomer ground advanced run we ended up again with 6 minutes to spare on the optional… I know the feeling there.

    Going in with elite teams is an option for some but not for everybody. Make a new toon and pug a few without the support of your friends to get a better feeling how this game must feel now for new or casual players b4 pointing out any problems.
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  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    w4lt3r wrote: »
    Well, with the release of this expansion and seeing that STFs / Advanced / Elite queues are all about DPS now, I feel that my science captain has effectively become obsolete. Science ships in general seem to be a waste of a player slow now in the queues.

    Cryptic absolutely dropped the ball with the most ridiculous HP / resistance scaling on advanced mode.. I don't even want to see what Elite holds in. My ship being there already might signal that the instance is going to fail.

    Can we have a 1000 zen captain class change token or something?

    I totally disagree with this comment. First I generally rank top 1 to 3 in any given slot with a science ship. That aside, I actually see more uses now for science ships, not less. With Science being queen of CC and debuffs, I find them so much more useful now. Dropping shields, lessing enemy dps, CCing mobs in order to more easily accomplish optionals.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I think that is overreacting. They just said they will look to balance it once they have seen how people go in them, and there are a ton of bonuses that we get as we level up. More HP, ship mastery, ship traits, specialisation and the better gear at 13 and 14 is massivly superior.

    What you see now, is not what you are going to see in a few weeks and that will be different to what you see months down the line. I highly suspect in a years time people will be complaining advanved is too easy. Don't panic. if it's a problem in a months time then you can make a more informed choice or lesve accurate feedback.

    That sounds reasonable... I'm still doing the Story content and going to try the Kobali Playground when I find it.

    I'm just kinda frustrated though, I am still trying to get several older Reps to level 5 and these changes have seriously added a lot more time to that goal.

    I'm liking the Eclipse Cruiser, it is an interesting ship to fly.
    The Intelligence BOffs are still a bit confusing, but I'm slowly figuring out their talents.
    (to be honest, the SCI one isn't very useful on the Eclipse because I still need to have Polarize Hull and Hazard Emitters which eliminates using the Intel-SCI in that ship)

    I'm not saying I'm going to stop playing, I'm just not going to be as eager to put anymore money into the game at this point.

    :(
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    That's the problem right there. I can tell a person how to do an STF, but if they don't have the gear, I can't help them. Problem is to get the gear, you need to do Advanced STFs.

    This is a great point.

    You need the gear to beat the missions, you need to beat the missions to get the gear.

    Chicken and the egg... call up Q, cause this is the paradox.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The only STF that is 'too hard' (and only because it's stupidly tedious now), is CCA, everything else is fine, if your having problems with things like ISA, then you are the problem.

    Well, thanks a lot "Mr. I'm So Great I Can Insult All The Players Who Are Beneath Me".

    It seems that there are at least several dozen folks who feel the way I do, going by the comments.

    I hope you've got lot of money, cause your going to have to support the game when all those people give up in frustration trying to play a game that they use to have fun playing.

    I'd try to explain to you how comments like yours are actually part of the problem, but it would go right over your Elitist Head and I don't have the patience for it tonight.

    :rolleyes:
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • dessniperdessniper Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Spending 15-20 minutes in an STF for almost no gain and then having a troll or an idiot blow the whole mission sucked all the fun out of this game.
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  • rickpaaarickpaaa Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Get to at least level 52 first, then have a challenge. There is nothing worse than having a new shiny level 60 ship, and not being able to accomplish what you have done for the last 3 years with ease.

    Winning: fun
    Winning with a tough challenge: fun
    Losing with a challenge that makes you want to have another crack at it, because you know that it can be done: fun
    losing because there's no possibility of winning: That's called Day One of Delta Rising PvE at level 50, and it is unfun to the extreme after a couple of hours

    So stay the hell away from the queues and level up on new mission content, Tau Dewa patrols (Japori is great for XP!), and the two borg STFs on normal... also good for XP. When you're 52, try a fleet alert. It will be a challenge, but you can actually win again.
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    Member since December 2009


  • zombiedeadheadedzombiedeadheaded Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    deokkent wrote: »
    Basically I have a sandwich so you can't be starving.

    I think you're the problem zombiedeadheaded, where's your brain at?

    The point is, if I'm hungry, i know how to make a sandwich, instead of crying to Mama to take the horrible hunger away. You have just as much 'bread' as I do, go make a sandwich.
  • darthraiderxxxdarthraiderxxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    After yesterday’s kithomer ground advanced run we ended up again with 6 minutes to spare on the optional… I know the feeling there.

    Ground difficulty also wasn't increased as much as space was. The difficulty changes to ground maps seem rather reasonable to me (more challenging now, but still doable) while space is just an even bigger DPS race (i don't consider a stupid amount of hull points on even the smallest enemy ships challenging, it is just plain boring).
  • staq16staq16 Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The point is, if I'm hungry, i know how to make a sandwich, instead of crying to Mama to take the horrible hunger away. You have just as much 'bread' as I do, go make a sandwich.

    Hmmm. I rather think that you're missing the very subjective nature of the argument here.

    This is a *game*, not a survival exercise. You can argue that players should just raise their game but if that's not "fun" for the majority - which is where the feedback is pointing at the moment - then something is very wrong.

    Otherwise; casual players (read: those with a life outside STO) walk, game dies, elites cry.
  • zombiedeadheadedzombiedeadheaded Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    staq16 wrote: »
    Hmmm. I rather think that you're missing the very subjective nature of the argument here.

    This is a *game*, not a survival exercise. You can argue that players should just raise their game but if that's not "fun" for the majority - which is where the feedback is pointing at the moment - then something is very wrong.

    Otherwise; casual players (read: those with a life outside STO) walk, game dies, elites cry.

    This game is incredibly easy, it's the definition of casual, if your finding things difficult in STO, don't leave the house, it's dangerous out there.
    And any game that'lowers its game' to increase 'fun', is is not dying, it's dead.
  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    Until those "months" are up it makes getting BNPs impossible unless you're in a pre-made. So now I have to wait over a month to get Delta Rep up, and then continue to wait while Cryptic "fixes" something that if you look on tribble forums we were complaining about anyway and they ignored.

    No, you dont have to wait a month to get the rep up. go play the normal queues or the patrol missions and get your delta marks that way. you may not be able to get their equivalent BNP for the moment, but you can still stockpile the marks and resources for when you can.
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    So what you're saying is that Rep gear should now be gated to only the top 25% of the player base?

    No, i did not. dont put words in my mouth. The rep gear should to a degree take some skill to own by the vast majority of people should be able to get it. it will just take people time to get to 60 first and have some better gear and new powers. there has been a fundamental change to the queues. its like asking someone to play the old elites in level 40 ships with mk10 blues. and this is till on top of the fact they said they are still looking to rebalance. what is the point of making it easier again right now, only to find in two months everyone is geared up and finding them too easy again. have some patience.
    Lets see... exchange you need dilithium, generally most people don't have the millions of credits that people are charging for top end gear. Lobi/lockbox requires cash... so you're saying pay2win gotcha. Fleet gear only if you're in a big enough fleet. Small fleets, well you're screwed and anyway if you're in a big enough fleet for fleet gear, you don't necessarily need to PUG. R&D requires mats from... you guessed it Advanced STFs or pay2win R&D boxes. Level 13 drops are a joke, upgrade system... yep pay2win, and rep stores probably, but not enough dps for advanced really.

    So it's either Pay2win or be average enough to basically get mid-line gear capped, making the rep system pretty much worthless.

    I'm sorry you dont want to do any of the game then. everything can be earned in game for free though a little work and effort. if you are not prepared to spend any money, or join any fleets, or accumulate any dilithium or EC then i dont really care if you don't have the equipment.
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  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I was reluctant to suggest this before as I dont like blocking off content that we had access to before but it might be worth changing advanced to unlock at 55 from now on.

    it might make more logical sense, especially to new players and it would press upon people that these are no longer easy level 50 missions that you can attempt straight away.

    you hit 50, and you play normal queues just fine.

    you hit 55, and then you can start trying advanced with the knowledge you will get better and more powerful over time. players at this time would already have multiple specialization points, ship mastery, maybe even ship traits and hopefully gear would be moving onto mk 13 so the shock wont be quite as great.

    elites at 60 remain for best of the best.

    I have no doubt many would dislike that but it might be a better option for the bigger pitcure, and especially new players moving forward.
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm sorry you dont want to do any of the game then. everything can be earned in game for free though a little work and effort. if you are not prepared to spend any money, or join any fleets, or accumulate any dilithium or EC then i dont really care if you don't have the equipment.

    Way to put words in my mouth. First off, I have the gear and the fleet, I can probably out dps you right now, and if I can't your one of the rare people out there. That's not the point in the greater scheme of things.

    I get it you don't care about anything but how you want the game to be played, and you like the idea of grind, grind, grind, more grind, and more grind obviously, or you prefer to just open your wallet and pay2win. Neither option is particularly viable to casuals, who outnumber us.


    No your solution is more time gates and pay2win. The reputation system already has enough time gates and grind associated with it, and hell half of Delta Rising is grinding just to get a level and grind to get your specializations and grind to get your ship traits and grind to get your R&D. We really dont' need anymore grind.

    And that's what's happening. What your suggesting is that people need to grind marks and EC and Dilithium in order to get mediocre gear to grind some more to get BNPs and still be time gated behind reptuation time gates and dilithium refining time gates and R&D time gates.

    Now all they're done is make it a "difficulty" time gate, and the majority of the player base will never be able to complete it regardless of your belief. They won't get the gear without a huge grind, and they'll leave, and when the average player starts to leave, the game will shut down.

    I'd prefer to avoid that. Leave the difficulty levels as they are, that's fine, leave the R&D boxes as they are, that fine and using your belief they can grind the dilithium to buy zen for that. But add 1 BNP to every bonus mark box would open up the higher tier reputation system gear, allowing a greater way of the average player getting the gear, and then we can show them how to play without them getting frustrated with the game.

    That's all I'm suggesting. Until then the average player will still keep coming into Advanced PUGs and they'll still cause those STFs to fail as they stand now because they won't have the dps to manage it.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I was reluctant to suggest this before as I dont like blocking off content that we had access to before but it might be worth changing advanced to unlock at 55 from now on.

    it might make more logical sense, especially to new players and it would press upon people that these are no longer easy level 50 missions that you can attempt straight away.

    you hit 50, and you play normal queues just fine.

    you hit 55, and then you can start trying advanced with the knowledge you will get better and more powerful over time. players at this time would already have multiple specialization points, ship mastery, maybe even ship traits and hopefully gear would be moving onto mk 13 so the shock wont be quite as great.

    elites at 60 remain for best of the best.

    I have no doubt many would dislike that but it might be a better option for the bigger pitcure, and especially new players moving forward.

    elitism. this is not a good thing.
    new players learn with experience and with the help of the old players
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The only STF that is 'too hard' (and only because it's stupidly tedious now), is CCA, everything else is fine, if your having problems with things like ISA, then you are the problem.

    No, elitist dps wankers is the problem, not the regular player base.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    Stuff.

    The point I am making is that the mission have fundamentally changed. they are now level 60 missions. they can be accessed at 50, which as i said above might now be a mistake, but until people actually get to 60 and have access to the new power then the feedback is largely pointless, as its going to change almost on a day by day basis.

    the increase in difficulty, which cryptic admit might be too high, is vast. however the powers that we have access to is also going to be vast.

    neither of us can say how the mission is going to to feel in the weeks and months to come. if it is still way to hard then it can and will be adjusted.

    its certain that that gap from new 60 to fully powered 60 is going to be much greater than from new 50 to fully geared 50. buty i think that is partly a good thing.

    almost all the current stf's and queues were too easy. having a stupidly easy game is not much better than having a too hard one but this is the time to try and fix that by making sure advanced stay challenging as most people will never be able to do elite by design. are new players going to feel that when they hit 60? yes. i would hope many would want to see the challenge to get better. i dont want it to be frustrating and until we get to see how it all plays out we wont know for sure.

    most new players might go straight to 60 before even thinking about reps. that initial increase in powers and abilities will make things like the battlezones and normal stf's feel even easier than if than when we first tried them.

    rep gear can be easily gotten from the battlezones or new romulus or from fleets or wherever. many may have even lucked on on lower tier upgrades and be sitting on ultra rare or gold equipment. coupled with new mods on the r and d system new players may find that they are significantly better equipped on hitting max than we were when we first did it.

    but all this just means that the here and now is very very hard. i just want to wait and see how it plays out and not judge it on the here and now.
  • uryenserellonturyenserellont Member Posts: 858 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I was reluctant to suggest this before as I dont like blocking off content that we had access to before but it might be worth changing advanced to unlock at 55 from now on.

    it might make more logical sense, especially to new players and it would press upon people that these are no longer easy level 50 missions that you can attempt straight away.

    you hit 50, and you play normal queues just fine.

    you hit 55, and then you can start trying advanced with the knowledge you will get better and more powerful over time. players at this time would already have multiple specialization points, ship mastery, maybe even ship traits and hopefully gear would be moving onto mk 13 so the shock wont be quite as great.

    elites at 60 remain for best of the best.

    I have no doubt many would dislike that but it might be a better option for the bigger pitcure, and especially new players moving forward.

    No you never change existing content to suddenly be locked until higher levels when a new expansion with higher max levels is released. You keep existing content as it is and add new content with higher difficulty and greater rewards. Eventually the old existing content becomes obsolete but it's always there for new players or leveling alts.

    That means current STFs and queues remain exactly as they were on Monday and they develop new STFs for level 60.

    Cryptic did the wrong thing.
  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    elitism. this is not a good thing.
    new players learn with experience and with the help of the old players

    I dont like elitism but how under anyone's definition is my suggestion elitism?

    what was elites, now advanced, have changed. they are significantly tougher to reflect being bumped up to level 60 content.

    if you were designing it from scratch, would it not be logical to open normal at 50, advanced at 55 and elites at 60? thats more or less how its always been done.

    how is asking someone to be 5 levels higher before playing more challenging content elitism?
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    No you never change existing content to suddenly be locked until higher levels when a new expansion with higher max levels is released. You keep existing content as it is and add new content with higher difficulty and greater rewards. Eventually the old existing content becomes obsolete but it's always there for new players or leveling alts.

    That means current STFs and queues remain exactly as they were on Monday and they develop new STFs for level 60.

    Cryptic did the wrong thing.

    Yes, this guy gets it!

    There is nothing wrong with giving the people that wanted harder content what they want.

    The wrong thing, was removing the content that players were currently enjoying in order to do it. There is no reason at all that the old Elite Modes had to be altered in any way other then name to facilitate the release of the new Elite mode.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    everyone who thinks this game is pay2win

    ................just no

    ..............just no

    zen - dilithium conversion
    keys - zen
    r&d boxes - zen or exchange



    its dilithium to win :D
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I dont like elitism but how under anyone's definition is my suggestion elitism?

    what was elites, now advanced, have changed. they are significantly tougher to reflect being bumped up to level 60 content.

    if you were designing it from scratch, would it not be logical to open normal at 50, advanced at 55 and elites at 60? thats more or less how its always been done.

    how is asking someone to be 5 levels higher before playing more challenging content elitism?

    I'm sorry, but I am at lvl55 and, guess what?

    Between mkix gear & a tier5u ship + lvl55 without having to carbon copy some ridiculous dps build, still doesn't cut it in advanced space.

    Going from lvl50 at a fun 9-10k build prior to DR, didn't just magically jump another 50-100% in dps!

    And, no my personal skill is not the issue and, no I am not going to change my build because I am forced to either.

    What I will do is, not pay a single dime till advanced is brought up to average fun PUG ready speed and, I am betting there are more people who would approve of this, than there are saying we should have to change!

    EDIT:mkxi-mkxii
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm sorry, but I am at lvl55 and, guess what?

    Between mkix gear & a tier5u ship + lvl55 without having to carbon copy some ridiculous dps build, still doesn't cut it in advanced space.

    Going from lvl50 at a fun 9-10k build prior to DR, didn't just magically jump another 50-100% in dps!

    And, no my personal skill is not the issue and, no I am not going to change my build because I am forced to either.

    What I will do is, not pay a single dime till advanced is brought up to average fun PUG ready speed and, I am betting there are more people who would approve of this, than there are saying we should have to change!

    MK IX ......................just saying your gimping yourself there

    however if that is a typo, get better gear :P (j/k)
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