test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Official New Upgrade System Feedback Thread

1235727

Comments

  • blitzy4blitzy4 Member Posts: 839 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'd suggest adding to the R&D window at the bottom below the schools a way to get into the upgrade window so you can check the timers.
    jKixCmJ.jpg
    "..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino



  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I don't think it is. Its in line with the upgrade pricing from neverwinter. Its awful and we need to make a fuss about it if we don't want it to stay awful.... actually there probably isn't any point, no amount of fuss ever seems to move cryptic to change anything...

    The problem is that nw allows three times the dil earning and refining, plus has an auction house that runs on dil not ec. Any price here should be 1\3 or 1\4 the price in nw at most.
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    As a test, I upgraded all the equipment on my T5-U Narcine to Mk XIV Gold Quality. Since I can get "free" Dilthium from the Drozana Test Console and the R and D Materials are hard to come by, I used only the 10K EC Vendor Upgrade Kits.

    I set myself up with one toon at ESD to purchase the kits and drop them in the account bank and the other parked at Drozana where I could get unlimited access to dilithium and ECs. I then started clicking as fast and furious as humanly possible, filling my inventory with dilithium tester boxes and opening them as fast as I could. Alternating with that was the process of upgrading items, again clicking "Apply Upgrade" and "Finish Now" as fast as possible.

    Final results:

    BAD - It took me around four and half solid hours of this to finish all the items. The dilithium cost was in the millions and the EC cost was in the hundreds of millions. By the end my hand was cramping and my eyes were bleary.

    GOOD - I did manage to end up with "drool-worthy" version of all my gear, as the special mods for EPIC quality are excellent.

    FEEDBACK SUMMARY -

    1. The actual results of the upgrading were awesome but the process to get there was dreadfully boring and ludicrously costly.

    2. At the current cost and time gate values, Mk XIV EPIC gear will be completely out of reach for any but the most dedicated and obsessed players.

    3. Someone who has been leveling crafting (me, for instance) stands to make a fortune (at the expense of other players) in ECs selling Superior upgrade kits but without using zen to buy dilithium it might take years to grind enough dilithium to actually finish a ship.

    So, system is neato, costs are off the chart stupid high, any but the most hardcore players will have no chance at all of getting the good gear. I am one of those hardcore players and still want the system to be tweaked in favor of the casual player. As I discussed cost and time gates with my fellow players in The Trading Channel (significant because theses are the "richest" players in STO) the overwhelming reaction was "looks like I am gonna be done with this" even from a friend who has LTS and just purchased the Delta Rising pack. For players with multiple alts, the situation is even more dreadful. Assuming real money to buy zen to buy dilithium with wasn't an issue, it would still mean spending almost two hours per ship to get fully upgraded.


    BOTTOM LINE: Time gate needs to be DRASTICALLY reduced or preferably go away altogether and dilithium cost needs to be brought down to a reasonable level, otherwise what is a potentially awesome mini-game and method to keep gear relevant will be D.O.A. and have a seriously negative effect on the reception of Delta Rising.
  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Does the fleet dilithium discount factor into these ridiculously absurd upgrade costs?
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The cost to get Gold Gear is insane and I believe it will drive most people to not particapate in the upgrading system at all, such as myself. This is the single most important thing they need to fix, its worse then the Fleet T-U vs. Fleet T-6 difference issue even, by far.
  • cookiecrookcookiecrook Member Posts: 4,524 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I have to agree on most points when it comes to not liking the UI. This has completely turned me away from crafting and the DOff system that we currently have on Holodeck. he more things that are forced into this system, the less reason I am going to have to play. I will also toss in my objection to the current upgrading costs.
    <
    > <
    > <
    >
    Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
  • freenos85freenos85 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    So from what i can see the upgrade cost per item from MK XII to MK XIV is roughly 18.5k per item. That's at least the case for things like weapons and shields/engines/deflectors. Console will be cheaper (maybe 1/3).

    This is of course assuming that you use the superior upgrade kits which will give you 12,800 TP each and have the best TP/Dili ratio. These can be more problematic, because certain purple ressources like Craylon Gas or Dentarium or Argonite Gas are rather rare and thus can push the EC costs of an upgrade quite substantially.

    The only real problem i have is with the upgrade costs to another rarity. With each upgrade kit applied (after you have upgraded your item to MK XIV) it will fill another pool of TP (216,000 this time) and by doing so will apply an increase in chance that the item will be upgraded after the TP pool has been filled (eventually the chance will become 100%).
    This results in massive amount of dili used just to get one item to a higher rarity for an item. It's basically upgrading your item without any benefit, just so you can get a chance increase of it becomming better.
    So essentially trying to upgrade the rarity of your item will result in multiplication of the original upgrade cost. (it took me a at least 5 tries to upgrade my console to ultraviolet quality and that's with only a 30% chance of doing so)

    Here's a link to a google doc (by startrekker on reddit) that shows you how much the average upgrade cost for an MK XII weapon would be: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JU8ciOpp5kbplvwFanr7ast9THnAwC3LywmYHZREMx0/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
  • pwefailpwefail Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    i just made a MK13 accx2 dmgx2 spiral wave disruptor on tribble.... 51k dil ..SAY WHAT ? :mad:
    The player formerly known as Chunter.
  • neotrident12neotrident12 Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The time and Dil requirements for any upgrade is staggeringly poor. Three and a half weeks and 300,000 Dilithium to upgrade my ship is an unacceptable time gate/expense, not only that but if I were to perform a different "build" on my ship I would have to buy Mk12 gear and go through the whole process again!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • schneemann83schneemann83 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The time and Dil requirements for any upgrade is staggeringly poor. Three and a half weeks and 300,000 Dilithium to upgrade my ship is an unacceptable time gate/expense, not only that but if I were to perform a different "build" on my ship I would have to buy Mk12 gear and go through the whole process again!

    Maybe Cryptic should take a huge step back from their monetization and remove the base dilithium costs from upgrading. Most items we'll upgrade did already -be it fleet, reputation or crafting- require considerable investments.

    So why not let upgrading be free of dilithium, but -just like it is already- time consuming. Accelerating would still require Dil, so you'll still have a major sink- pay for convenience, one of the basic f2p ideas, a setup much easier to sell than what is currently on tribble.
  • drake122svkdrake122svk Member Posts: 731 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    They want you to give them more money man, the dil cost will not go away.
  • coffeemikecoffeemike Member Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The Tier-5U ship upgrades I can deal with considering I don't PVP and I like mOar hull on my Vesta Class... this I cannot. So no crafting for me and mOar dilithium hoarding.
  • trelane87trelane87 Member Posts: 242 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The more I think about these upgrade costs the more I start to wonder where is the logic in their reasoning for it. It's been stated by the devs numerous times that they want people to fly more ships and not stick with just one ship, but this system kills that. I already use multiple ships on my main toon and both those ships have completely different builds... I will have to spend over 600k dilithum and hundreds of upgrade tokens just to get the gear up to XIV quality, not even taking into account wanting to upgrade them to epic quality, and that is just on one toon. The whole system as it stands now will only punish people with multiple ships on one toon or multiple toons, the dilithium cost needs to be drastically reduced, chance for quality upgrade needs to either be increased or somehow made 100% chance for a reasonable cost, and the amount of upgrade tokens needed needs to be reduced for this system to be more palatable for casual players.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    flyingtarg wrote: »
    Many of the "level-less" items (The items that use the ∞ symbol) may not be upgradeable until level 60.

    Other items that won't be upgradeable include "Starter" items, such as the Phaser pistol you get in the tutorial, and any Common quality weapons that come with ships (For example, a Mk X phaser array that comes by default on a Tier 5 ship). These items will never be upgradeable.

    Pretty much everything else should be, so keep these reports coming, these are extremely useful to us.

    Is there any reason still to buy the Jem'Hadar space set Lobi gear upgrade? Does it include anything new? It seems like a bit of a bummer if it cost 300 Lobi to turn gear into something everyone can get for 30k dilithium, unless owners of the Lobi pack will get something extra like a hull texture or something on that order.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Good question! Let us test this!

    We'll start with a Mk I Phaser Full Auto Rifle.

    After 1 application of a [Improved Ground Gear Tech Upgrade] (5000 TP) it has enough overflow TP to upgrade it all the way to Mk VII and it picked up 1 Uncommon [modifier] along the way!

    And the answer is... the model changes. It now has the Mk VII model with the glowy bits instead of the Mk I model. Sorry Charlie, this just ain't your day. :(

    What about special weapons like the Federation Type 3 (TOS) rifle, the C-Store TOS pistols, or the Bajoran phaser rifle?

    Those start off with unique visuals.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2014
    Is there any reason still to buy the Jem'Hadar space set Lobi gear upgrade? Does it include anything new? It seems like a bit of a bummer if it cost 300 Lobi to turn gear into something everyone can get for 30k dilithium, unless owners of the Lobi pack will get something extra like a hull texture or something on that order.

    That upgrade pack has been removed, internally. It will no longer be available once the Upgrade System goes live to Holodeck.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    That upgrade pack has been removed, internally. It will no longer be available once the Upgrade System goes live to Holodeck.

    I can see, for simplicity sake, why you'd fold the Jemmy stuff into the new system.

    But, 150 or 200 lobi was a pretty big investment for those of us who upgraded a space or ground set.

    Any chance of a token gesture towards that?

    Perhaps give us a free upgrade to Mk XIII?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2014
    rinkster wrote: »
    But, 150 or 200 lobi was a pretty big investment for those of us who upgraded a space or ground set.

    Any chance of a token gesture towards that?

    Nope. I know that'll be an unpopular answer, but it is what it is.

    Keep in mind that you have the Mk XII version at this price, while everyone else must start from Mk XI in the Upgrade System, and improve it from there.

    The Ground Set also included a Costume Unlock which will need to be purchased separately from now on. So call that a built-in bonus, if you like.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rinkster wrote: »
    I can see, for simplicity sake, why you'd fold the Jemmy stuff into the new system.

    But, 150 or 200 lobi was a pretty big investment for those of us who upgraded a space or ground set.

    Any chance of a token gesture towards that?

    Perhaps give us a free upgrade to Mk XIII?

    Heck, I'd love a BO (a clone of the mission Jem'Hadar), a Veteran BO token (like the ones from the Dilithium conversion), or a title or something. I don't expect a refund but given that Cryptic was very actively promoting that pack by giving it new visuals something like 3-4 months ago, it would be nice if the people who took the bait didn't get left completely out in the cold there.

    That was a full costume or BO price.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Nope. I know that'll be an unpopular answer, but it is what it is.

    Keep in mind that you have the Mk XII version at this price, while everyone else must start from Mk XI in the Upgrade System, and improve it from there.

    The Ground Set also included a Costume Unlock which will need to be purchased separately from now on. So call that a built-in bonus, if you like.

    I get the ground set but "it is what it is" is kind of a jerk-y answer. 200 Lobi isn't exactly worth the very small amount of dilithium it will take for Mk XI to Mk XII.

    If Cryptic can't be bothered to get details like this right, why should anybody spend money with you guys?
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    I get the ground set but "it is what it is" is kind of a jerk-y answer. 200 Lobi isn't exactly worth the very small amount of dilithium it will take for Mk XI to Mk XII.

    If Cryptic can't be bothered to get details like this right, why should anybody spend money with you guys?

    Lol, I spent the 200 lobi on two toons, although that was a long time ago. Oh well. At least I'm one step ahead. :(
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Nope. I know that'll be an unpopular answer, but it is what it is.

    Keep in mind that you have the Mk XII version at this price, while everyone else must start from Mk XI in the Upgrade System, and improve it from there.

    The Ground Set also included a Costume Unlock which will need to be purchased separately from now on. So call that a built-in bonus, if you like.

    Yeah, that'd be what I do call an unpopular answer.

    Lobi is, to me, the hardest currency to acquire in the game.

    The two ground sets I've bought represented as much of a financial investment in the game (in terms of keys bought to open boxes) as a C-store ship.

    I appreciate the efforts that have been made to keep peoples purchases relevent, through the various upgrade processes.

    I do find it a great pity that this, admittedly small, area has not received the same attention.








    Edited to add, just felt the need to point out what kind of investment we're talking here.

    At the average of 5 lobi a box, the ground set requires an average of 30 boxes to opened.

    YMMV obviously.

    That's north of $30 of zen spent somewhere, even if you buy the keys off the exchange or swap dilithium for zen.

    Now, its not the only thing you get for that $30, but it is a fair part of it.

    Two ground sets represents a proportion of $60 spent on the game.

    I really do think that should have been considered when the upgrading processes were thought through.
  • siliconpsychosiliconpsycho Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Good grief

    Im a single toon guy, iv'e spent quite a bit on increasing my inventory and banks to the max possible amount of slots. they are currently FULL of fleet / rep gear.

    I run lots of different loadouts on my large ship collection.

    This is not for me. Ill take the 20odd dps loss per weapon and 1-2% loss per console and stick with what I already have. I cant grind that sort of dil on one character. And no, alts are not for me.

    The days of me spending real money on this game are now long gone. Nothing I have seen of the new systems on tribble excite me AT ALL. Sure, im looking forward to the new story content, but that is about it.

    My enthusiasm for the game is rapidly dwindling :mad:
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    1) Has anyone been able to upgrade the Solanae 2nd Deflector and do you have stats on an Epic version of it?

    2) Are the Voth weapons that are exclusive to the voth ships (the ones that come in it by default) going to be upgradable? If so, could they be added to the reclaim tab since a lot of us had to get rid of them because of space constraints/they were mk X so they seemed to be wasting space?
  • doublechadoublecha Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    In related news, you say that if you're not hurry the cost will be 0 dilithuim.
    False announcement, thank PWE system
    Qapla'
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    doublecha wrote: »
    In related news, you say that if you're not hurry the cost will be 0 dilithuim.
    False announcement

    Lol, not only false, but you actually end up spending more dilithium going cheap. Going the fancier but less dil way, it's old school pre-rep Borg STF grinding (well, grinding all Elite STF queues) combined with the mats grinding lotto. Requiring VR mats or salvage, pure evil.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Are the Voth weapons that are exclusive to the voth ships (the ones that come in it by default) going to be upgradable?

    These are the same as the Voth Antiproton Weapons that were included in the Voth Lock Box. So if you'd like upgradeable versions, you can acquire them elsewhere.

    None of the starter equipment that comes pre-equipped on Starships will be upgradeable, other than special exceptions like Consoles and some special unique weapons (Wide-Angle Quantum, for example).
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • bridgernbridgern Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I know that you need our money but this is getting the wrong direction we need something that does not cost Dilithium for a change.
    Bridger.png
  • doublechadoublecha Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    From Season 9 this game is sick. With Delta Rising, it died
    Since the beginning you do not want to admit that R&D is very poorly designed, it is rejected by the majority of players. A year for all schools level 20, and millions of dilithium to upgrade the items at XIV.
    Qapla'
  • captaind3captaind3 Member Posts: 2,449 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    1) Can we have the option to make multiple upgrade kits like we do with components?

    2) where you have the upgrade window (where you add the tech kits and accelerators) it shows you the item that you have and the item what it will become. the future items shows the same stats as the old item. it makes it look like its not worth upgrading. either show the new stats or remove that tootip as it will confuse people.

    3) I am not a fan of the high dilithium costs involved. i understand that this is new powerful gear and it wont be cheap but i think costs should come down, especially considering how expensive these items often were to get in the first place. i assume mak xiv purples will drop in game, so why would people spend so much if its all this expensive?

    EDIT - Just found out that the higher upgrade packs offer more points and significantly reduce the prices involved, so im not as worried about the pricing now. seems far more in line with what i expected.

    4) the one thing i have a real problem with is the time it takes to upgrade things. in the R&D system, i think its fine as you dont want people to burn through it, and you are making new items so the delay is acceptable and understandable. in this you are taking your old items and making them better. but once you upgrade you lose your item for hours on end. that will make people less inclined to keep playing that character until their item is ready. they may not have a suitable replacement or may not want to keep moving different equipment in and out.

    the upgrade system already costs a lot to make new items. you dont need to add an extra layer of time and money on top of it. at least nothing more than say 15 minutes at the most.

    the R&D system takes months and you can speed that up via millions of dilithium and im fin with that. in the upgrade people have to pay the millions whether they do it all in one day or over months. you dont need to charge more to speed it up.

    I would think that the dilithium that we have already invested in the fleet gear and the rep gear would certainly account for something. A reduction in the cost of those items. A Rep shield costs 34,000 dilithium. Then we're looking at An additional 26,000 to get it to MKXIV and even more to max out the rarity.

    That's pretty brutal if you consider that on a Tier 5-U that's 22 items to upgrade. That's just for one whole loadout.

    On the crafting of Upgrade Kits end, I'm asking you, I'm begging you, PLEASE rework how the R&D Materials boxes give us the very rare drops. I'm just asking for something like lockboxes. Lockboxes guarantee at least 4 lobi per box. I just want one very rare material drop per Materials box. Just the one on the box. Getting a Dentarium once out of every thirty Undine Infiltration runs isn't cutting it. They're already required for crafting, but the fact that they're needed to craft the new upgrade kits is going to make them extremely expensive and the Superior Upgrade kits very hard for the poor folks among us.
    Tried the upgrade system with a crafted UR Omni-Beam and superior tech upgrade items.

    First step: Crafting the tech item, doing so one by one (or with high skill currently mostly three per run). Just creating them is as of now already quite a click-orgy.

    Now apply each tech item individually. Another good dozen of clicks. 6 (XIII) + 10 (XIV) superior items, each accompanied with 1075 dil as additional cost (not counting dil to accelerate).... sigh. Quite an investment to overcome your planned obsolescence.

    But this is only the beginning. Each additional upgrade cycle adds ~2% chance to increase rarity. So another few dozens of upgrade cycles, each (now ~16 superior tech and dil) taking 36 hours to complete. Being on tribble I decided to accelerate with dil. Half an hour of clicking, countless of superior tech items and over half a million of dilithium (a lot of it for accelerating) later, my beam has finally gotten the rarity upgrade (before after screenshot: http://imgur.com/2RAMpy5).

    And now I imagine to repeat that with the items I have on my ship and char... I'm puzzled: What's the point of this upgrade system, for whom is this system designed?

    My first thought: You'll might have to be causal - one set of items for you, one for your ship. That should keep the costs in check - or not. Still a lot of tech items, still a lot of dilithium -likely much more than any causal player has spend ever before-, and your items are unavailable for overall quite a lot of time, even if you'll just upgrade to 14 without also trying to upgrade rarity. Thus, I guess most causals are likely long gone playing another game before seeing the end of their upgrade reign.

    Now it might be for the hardcore crowd - those who play a lot and have a load of dil and mats. But those will also have many items on their chars, and likely have a lot of alts. Just thinking about upgrading more than a few items and on a number of chars... might be cheaper to build your own starbase than upgrading your stuff.

    Please cryptic, cut down the costs of this upgrade system. Regardless if it's a causal player or a whale, you're bleeding them to death with the current setup.


    Suggestions:

    - Let us craft tech items in bulk, preferable stacks way beyond the 5 we got for components (may as well increase that limit too). This would add quite a bit of QoL improvement on the crafting side.
    - Let us use any very rare material instead of a specific one to craft superior/experimental upgrade items. The availability of those mats is largely different, and with the required amounts there will otherwise be an insane shortage for some of them.


    - Double the research xp for all tech upgrade items. This would cut a bit of the tedious clicking, and would bring dil costs down to a slightly more reasonable level for an upgrade.

    - Increase the chance to upgrade rarity for "regular" tech upgrade items. I'm aware that there is the experimental upgrade item, but with the UR material requirement they'll likely going to be quite elusive for most players, just like cstore/lockbox accelerators. Thus there should be a more reasonable chance to do it with just regular (superior) upgrade items.
    That sounds bad.

    Reducing the clicks is simple Quality of Life. Ease of use will encourage use. I'm hoping this is just early installment weirdness as you guys did add the multiple component crafting later on.
    Maybe Cryptic should take a huge step back from their monetization and remove the base dilithium costs from upgrading. Most items we'll upgrade did already -be it fleet, reputation or crafting- require considerable investments.

    So why not let upgrading be free of dilithium, but -just like it is already- time consuming. Accelerating would still require Dil, so you'll still have a major sink- pay for convenience, one of the basic f2p ideas, a setup much easier to sell than what is currently on tribble.

    That would be ideal, I would even accept a significantly reduced dilithium cost though. If we were to buy this gear wholesale in a Fleet store or something then it would be say 20% more expensive. We should pay that extra 20% of dilithium as the upgrade cost. That seems perfectly reasonable especially considering how many items there are.
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo9_r1_400.gif
    "Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many — they are few"
Sign In or Register to comment.