Well GW III + TS III (Gravimetric torps) + Isometric Charge + max particle gens = literally a whole waves of NPC's dead in seconds.
That shows to me that Sci is not useless even with the most basic skills and equipment, before you start looking into full drain or shutdown builds that need more forwards planning.
Add in things like doffs that cause aftershock GW's and projectile cool-downs and you can wipe out most of the map before the rest of the team gets in range.
Plus you can set sensor analysis on the big boss targets and leave it to stack up to give you a boost when you need to deal with them. If everyone on the team puts sensor analysis on a boss ship and lets it stack for the whole match it has a dammed big effect when you go in for the kill.
Doesn't sensor analysis require you to hold the target lock, though?
Well GW III + TS III (Gravimetric torps) + Isometric Charge + max particle gens = literally a whole waves of NPC's dead in seconds.
That shows to me that Sci is not useless even with the most basic skills and equipment, before you start looking into full drain or shutdown builds that need more forwards planning.
Add in things like doffs that cause aftershock GW's and projectile cool-downs and you can wipe out most of the map before the rest of the team gets in range.
Plus you can set sensor analysis on the big boss targets and leave it to stack up to give you a boost when you need to deal with them. If everyone on the team puts sensor analysis on a boss ship and lets it stack for the whole match it has a dammed big effect when you go in for the kill.
So...Sci's can do a mean burst every three minutes! Wow...that's so OP...while we're waiting 3 minutes for IC to cooldown, a minute for GW III to cooldown, and 30 seconds for TS III to cooldown a Tac is putting out steady and strong damage.
Plus honestly...how many Sci ships have a Lt Cmdr Tac? Not a whole lot of them.
Cryptic hates Science, plain and simple...especially after I looked at the horrible stats of the Scryer...I mean come on.
2 Tac consoles, Lt Tac (Which means you can't use the dual cannons effectively unless you play A2B...on a Sci ship.) and it would appear no SA but the kept the useless SST...so this is effectively the weakest Science ship in the game.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
with all due respect, some science ships are more attuned to PvP, whereas (as the nature of the game stands as of right now) your Tac-Sci ships are more attuned to PvE. If you want to do damage in a PvE, youll need that Tac-Sci ship. its as simple as that.
TheGrateLordeCheesus Ship build coordinator for The Breakfast Club http://WWW.TBCSTO.COM Doesn't Owe AnyoneEC Kirks Prot
So...Sci's can do a mean burst every three minutes! Wow...that's so OP...while we're waiting 3 minutes for IC to cooldown, a minute for GW III to cooldown, and 30 seconds for TS III to cooldown a Tac is putting out steady and strong damage.
Plus honestly...how many Sci ships have a Lt Cmdr Tac? Not a whole lot of them.
Cryptic hates Science, plain and simple...especially after I looked at the horrible stats of the Scryer...I mean come on.
2 Tac consoles, Lt Tac (Which means you can't use the dual cannons effectively unless you play A2B...on a Sci ship.) and it would appear no SA but the kept the useless SST...so this is effectively the weakest Science ship in the game.
There may be a lack of sci ships compared to tac or cruisers, but the ones in the game can be used very effectively.
Plus honestly...how many Sci ships have a Lt Cmdr Tac? Not a whole lot of them.
To be honest, TSII works almost as well with the GWIII/Grav Torp build. I was regularly getting first place in the Crystalline Cataclysm Event on my Engi Romulan in my Story/Lobi DSD using that combo, and my Sci fed char in a Vesta was no slouch either, getting 2-3rd place most times and the odd first place, and he's a character that I haven't come close to finishing my build on (lacking most of the Rep gear I want, and using mostly Story mission based equipment up to the Breen FE... and honestly I don't focus on getting the most optimal build). Results that surprised the heck out of me.
So, yeah, it's definitely possible to build a Sci ship for DPS if you really want to, but it'll be spike DPS, based over a large number of targets rather than a focused steady stream of DPS on one target. But there's nothing wrong with that, especially in PvE.
But the thing is, dps really is not the only measure of how effective a build is. It's just what a lot of people assume is the most important thing.
A lot of spike damage builds can put out enormous hits and vape anything they go up against but yet their dps will be really low due to com various cool downs.
Science ships can put out pretty huge spike damage too and using grav wells and TS as above is just one example.
It's just different ways of approaching the same issue. Yes an escort or cruiser can put out more damage and will move one the next target quickly but in a sci boat you can easily wipe out the whole wave in one go with some careful planning.
There may be a lack of sci ships compared to tac or cruisers, but the ones in the game can be used very effectively.
I didn't say they couldn't...but normally you need to specialize in one area...and damage is probably the weakest area for Sci.
I love Sci abilities...they're really fun...just they suffer. It's just so much easier to throw beams on a ship in PvE or DBB and Cannons in PvP and just fire away than use and build for Sci powers.
They just really don't care much...the Scryer only makes me feel that even more...I mean you got a Nice BC and a nice Escort...but the T6 Sci ship is just complete trash...even if it had SA the only thing that would set it above the weaker Sci ships is the Intel abilities.
The Ha'nom...which isn't a great Sci ship puts the Scryer to shame, SA, 3 tac consoles, and BC...just so much better.
Without SA it a lot of draining/damage, why take a Scryer when you can take the BC with more tac slots, 3rd tac console, and 2 more weapons or the Escort with 1 more weapon and 3 more tac consoles?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
To be honest, TSII works almost as well with the GWIII/Grav Torp build. I was regularly getting first place in the Crystalline Cataclysm Event on my Engi Romulan in my Story/Lobi DSD using that combo, and my Sci fed char in a Vesta was no slouch either, getting 2-3rd place most times and the odd first place, and he's a character that I haven't come close to finishing my build on (lacking most of the Rep gear I want, and using mostly Story mission based equipment up to the Breen FE... and honestly I don't focus on getting the most optimal build). Results that surprised the heck out of me.
So, yeah, it's definitely possible to build a Sci ship for DPS if you really want to, but it'll be spike DPS, based over a large number of targets rather than a focused steady stream of DPS on one target. But there's nothing wrong with that, especially in PvE.
I have no problems getting 1st-3rd in my Vesta...that doesn't mean a whole lot. In case you haven't noticed the skill cap in STO is pretty HUGE. Not to mention that the Vesta is the strongest and the DSD is one of the strongest below the Vesta...
I myself play a Sci character in a Vesta...I play a cannon build...a cannon build without just stacking a bunch of Aux cannons, I use regular wepaons and have 125 weapon power...plus I use Advanced Danubes atm...I go from as far as optimal as I can and I can regularly get in the top 3...the only thing *optimal* about my ship is I fly the Recon verison.
If you can do it in something like the DSSV then that may be a more worthy accomplishment....
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
There is a lot of good discussion going on. Here are the concerns I have with science captain in science ships. It usually only revolves around abilities that don't work on high end NPCs. Some abilities need to be reworked.
Photonic Shockwave. Premise is a good ability. It is a repel, disable, and damage ability all in one. Problem is that to make it effective it cost a lot of skill points. You have to spec into grav gen, particle gen, and sub space decompiler. Few years ago it was doing more damage, but cryptic found it was doing twice what is was suppose to. Now the damage is dismal at best. It would be better with shield pen. Also there is no console the boost the component that give the disable. The disable cost 3000 skill point per tic while the counter to the disable subsystem repair cost half as much. One other thing is the radius needs to be expanded. I would change the way this work. Make the damage, repel, and disable be based off aux power. Increase the radius to 5km, everything with in 3 km takes full damage and everything 3-5 takes half.
Viral matrix. This works? Sounds good but all NPCs seem to ignore it. And the NPCs that don't you don't need to use it one. This is a complete waste of a power in PvE. PvP once again subsystem repair makes it useless, unless you get lucky and find someone with a week skill. In a group or premade it could be made viable.
Tractor beam: great ability in PvE specially with a shield drain doff. It is a decent hold damage could be doubled in my opinion. In PvP this sucks damage is not good and there are to many counter. Escort and science vessel can easily run off and cruisers just wipe the damage off.
Energy drain abilities are ok. Cheap to spec into and against the right targets they excell. The problem is it is either one extreme of the other. In both PvE and PvP they either cripple you or you wipe it off. The problem I have with it is resist to drain is to high and there needs to be a rock bottom a player can be drained to, let's say a min of 15 power in all level. Is the min a player can be drained.
Shields Drains suffer from to much resistance to be useful in PvP but in PvE once shields are downt eh ability become useless, much like Borg STFs. To many unshielded targets.
Scramble sensors just needs to work for the prescribed time and work on high end NPCs
Jam sensors, I would change the way it works, make it throwable. This would allow science players to hide target the have aggro and give them a few seconds to catch a cooldown. So if a tank or a escort is taking to much damage the science ability will hid the target it is thrown on.
Mask energy. Increase make it a combination of the old jam sensor and current mask energy. Increase the damage required before buff is lost. With the way power creep is now, this needs a buff.
To go back to something the OP mentioned and everyone else ignored...
regarding the "life" of other (allied) ships - displaying a bar above them - you already can do that. It's an option in your user-side graphics settings. You apparently have it turned off (which is the default).
oh! ok thx; i'm going to take a look at the settings
here is my build : (exotic damage build) skill : starship particle generator : 3
weapon: 125
shield : 80
engine : 47
aux : 81
I'm not sure to keep the CC deflector
oh i made a mistake in my first post: my grav well 3 deals 950 dps, not 1500; sorry
btw, i don't want pure DPS, but only the chance to be more effective against average ships (nicor, small cruisers etc). I use as reference the undine stfs because they are the hardest. In the other stfs (borgs, etc), nobody needs a healer and sci abilities are not needed when you are with 2 or 3 OP ships :P . And borgs don't seem affected by sci abilities. My hope is that all the stfs will be as hard than the undine stfs; at least, each class of ships has a real job to do.
I love how completely uninformed so many of this games players are.
Sci is;
1) Not a weapon DPS class.
2) The best class you can possibly have on your team. (for PvP OR PvE)
3) The class that has benefited the most from almost every change the past year.
Sci PvE DPS is stupid simple once you realize your DPS as a sci is NOT about your beam weapons.
Here are some tips... if you can't figure it out from there you should not be playing a sci.
- Sensor Ann will stack up to 25% dmg boost on a single target. Does this help you against a grouping of spheres no... but will it help you disintegrate a gate solo. YES.
- Energy weapons are pointless. EXOTIC dmg is how a sci creates dmg. You have 2 Traits you want for that. 1-Conversion of Energy 2-Particle Manipulator. If you want to play DMG sci you really should have or be working toward having PM.
- Torpedoes are the only way to go for Sci DPS. They are high dmg and the nature of Base dmg calculations in STO, mean even a Lowly Rep Photon with NO tac consoles at all... can hit 40-60k Crit hits like crazy on debuffed gates when you are using a Proper Sensor Ann / debuff stack.
- AOE control skills. Gravity well is one of the most useful utility skills in PvE right now. Great for grabbing spawns of probes spheres and for controlling things like HY torps from undine.
- Torpedo Spread is your friend. If you are running something like faw you have failed so very hard building your sci.
- Power settings... your in a science ship not an escort. Weapon power is not important most of the time. Have 2 settings one Full aux... and one Full weapons. ONLY switch to full weapons when ALL of your aux dependent skills are on cool down for awhile. (really all you should have is 1-3 energy weapons anyway... standard DPS sci build would be something like...
Experimental Proton - Graviton Photon - Bio Enhanced Photon
360 Beam array - Cutting Beam - Heavy Dis/Phaser Turret.
Trust me with that exact weapon setup I can parse 28k in ISE... stop thinking like a Cruiser Kirk.
- Look for Skill synergies. Have a Sci ship with a LT Cmd Engi... why not combo something like Eject Warp Plasma with Tractor repulsor + a DOFF.
- USE your stupid Sub disables. Yes they are weak. No they are not direct DPS... still lowering DPS or Stopping a Fleeing EPTE running Sphere... or yes sometimes when you COMBO (Synergies remember) You can easily drop the shields right off a tac cube. (Then More SYNERGIES you are firing TORPS Boom Boom)
- Last tip I'll post... REMOVE your stupid -threat consoles. So often I see sci players in STF ques taking no argo... great you don't die thats nice. You are also NOT building stacks of Conversion of Energy. Run enough armor and heals to survive some tanking... pull that argo, build 3 stacks and if You have Particle Manipulator for sure your Exotic DMG will more then equal any and all but the most Extreme Min Maxed Tac builds.
One final bit of advise here is a list of all the DMG Science Skills and what you should be doing with them in PvE.
Gravity well - AOE hold, pull together the trash combo with things like Torp spread and AOE weapons like cluster torps to remove entire groups and rack up massive DPS score if you care about such things.
Tykens Rift - AOE drain, Don't use it on trash... if you run it save it for things like Tac Cubes and cobmo it with Target Shields. (why not its free)
Tractor beam repulstors - Main Stay SCI DPS skill... this is the Exotic Dmg version of FAW. That should sum it up for those that don't know. However Run a TBR reversal Doff so you don't just scatter mobs all over the place.
Tractor Beam - Not as useful in PvE... however can still be useful on something like say a sci carrier where stopping a NPC will allow your pets to kill it very fast.
Photonic Shockwave. Low DPS for PvE... however can be semi useful on Some ParticleM builds Again more of a PvP skill where it will counter channeled skills like TBR.
Feedback pulse. - Again don't bother with this skill in PvE. It returns dmg sure but almost none of the NPCs in STO shoot more then one energy weapon at you anyway. The return is pitiful because the NPCS are. Most NPC dmg comes from Kinetic dmg.
Energy Siphen. NPCs don't counter this so it is a nice DPS reducer on gates or a Synergy skill to shut shields down. Bonus is it boosts your own power.
Scramble Sensors - Don't bother for PvE. Long cool down... the scramble doesn't last all that long... and won't even effect stronger mobs.
Viral Matrix - Same thing as SS... its a good PvP skill if you use it right but in PvE its effect is to short its cool down to long and higher end mobs are immune or so resisted they may as well be.
Jam sensors - Not a great PvE skill... it breaks to easy and really you should be able to tank with skills that are up far more often. This is another Semi useful PvP skill.
i don't want to have a torp boat, i'm not interested by this way of playing :P,
however i have followed some of your advices; -threat replaced by + threat (only 2 for now)
Tractor beam repulstors - Main Stay SCI DPS skill... this is the Exotic Dmg version of FAW. That should sum it up for those that don't know. However Run a TBR reversal Doff so you don't just scatter mobs all over the place.
I've heard of this before but I never had one:
What is the name or type of that one? Is it available on the Exchange or from DOFF missions? Or was it a lockbox thingy?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
i don't want to have a torp boat, i'm not interested by this way of playing :P,
however i have followed some of your advices; -threat replaced by + threat (only 2 for now)
Even if you neutral them out you should be good... some - some +.
Just make sure you have enough tank to handle a bit of argo of course.
I always sound harsh don't get me wrong you can do sci with out torps. Honestly though once you go that way you will never ever go back.
Run a hyrbid... some energy (for disables ect) and 1-2 torps. That seems to work best imo... for both CC (some torp procs are awsome and reliable).. healing (put more power in aux)... and DMG (torps still hit harder then anything else and sci have so many ways to get to hull with them.
Set power levels to something like ... 50 25 25 100.. with a second setting at 100 25 25 50. Keep in mind if you run the Nukura +DMG based on aux power levels running at 50 weapon power isn't as crazy as it seems. You may even want to experiment with a 75 25 25 75 setting. Not sure if you have a Plasmotic Leech console (there expensive right now if you don't) there not required but if you have one perhaps run 2 armours with a leech instead of 3.
For doffs you could run plenty of things... only required one really would be the TBR reversal doff.
After that you could Spend doffs lowering cool downs on Teams for better tanking... or you could run a Matter Anti Matter that disables engines on targets effected by EWP (not sure how good it really is in pve most NPCS stop in it anyway) If you really want more DPS you can even put in 1-3 Torpedo Doffs.
For rep traits Run something like ... Both Nukura Aux power + Omega kinetic shearing + Nano shield or something.
For the other traits... if you run torps Intimedating strikes is very nice to have.
Other then that Conversion of Energy... and if you have it Particle Manipulator (if you don't have it start working on it) run the 20hr science mission every day. If you can make cheap consoles as well to speed it up. (forget the other schools till you have the sci one and the trait done) With the build I posted + 9 points in Particle Generators that build would have around 60% crit on exotic dmg. (TBR in that builds case... and the fluidic console dmg if you hit NPCS with it)
Yes I didn't put any tac consoles in you don't need them. Run one escape console like the fluidic universal so you can GTF if for some reason you are having issues tanking a gate or something if your team isn't helping enough in some way.
PS In case it wasn't super obvious this is a lot of rep stuff... the Gravity Torp + Experimental Proton wepaon + console will mean MORE Photon dmg + More Crit hit and Crit D. The bio torp + heavy turret will give you a nice constant slow proc on a single target (or on tons with spread... but spread with Gravity torp is insane in PvE)
Also of course make the build your own... if you would like to continue running say GW 3 you can for sure do that. Just run one TBR 2 + GW 3... cool downs are longer but it would do a great job cleaning up spheres in infected ect.
I've heard of this before but I never had one:
What is the name or type of that one? Is it available on the Exchange or from DOFF missions? Or was it a lockbox thingy?
They come out of the Voth Duty officer pack... which is a drop from the Voth lockbox.
There tractor beam doffs with these names
Fed - Graga Mal
KDF - Falla Okev
Think there around 8mil right now on the exchange. TBR is popular so they have spiked a bit. They drop to around 5-6mil during the week.
The Nebula build isn't bad, but you're overdoing it on the particle generators. Two are generally fine for PvE, and with 9 points into the PGen skill you're getting some diminishing returns on slots that are better used for universal slots or field generators. And yes, torpedoes are a large part of your damage, so you'd be insane not to toss in at least one photon torp console. Especially considering since each of those particle generators you have in your science slots are adding a whole heckuva lot less than a 26%+ dmg boost. And you're firing a torp a lot faster than using TBR.
Lose EP2E and slot EP2S, the Nebula is already tanky and if you're worried about speed, grab an engine battery. I also use the fleet consoles to add to turn rate and defenses, but I know a lot of people can't make that investment either w/ dilith or having a fleet at that level. Either way, though, I highly suggest if you run a TBR build to pull in enemies, slot at least one mine to a rear slot. It'll increase your dps a lot more than a turret will (unless it's a long cd, like a tricobalt), and since you're ignoring +mine dmg consoles you can drop in any type of dmg you want for the dmg procs. I normally aim for the low cd ones since I enjoy littering the area with mines as I aggro everything, but can let loose with some great spike dmg with the nukara web ones since they deal a non-resist dmg type in space. And with any torp sci boat, no need to run weapons at much power, since even the turrets are only there for the proc chance--hence why it should be plasma or disruptor for the most part.
The Nebula can tank even better with an Engi Captain at her helm since you get an extra saving roll (Miracle Worker, twice with trait) and a decent shield power. I also wouldn't recommend running an A2Bat build without being an Engi since it gets dicey at times, heh.
Not sure you understand what Particle Manipulator does. 25% crit for every 100 pgen skill.
99 from skill tree... 150 or so from consoles... and another 20-30 depending on which Pgen deflector you run. makes for 60-75% Crit hit on exotic dmg skills. Meaning that TBR 3 will be hitting for 4-5k per crit hit... on up to 3 NPCs at a time.
On the torp dmg yes indeed it is a large part of the dmg... I run the Dyson console which gives you pretty much one torp console. (as well as 10% crit chance on BOTH rep photons... as well as 10% CrtD for running the 3 piece) Running a second torp dmg console... sure it may give you a bit of dmg. I simply suggested it may be wise to run a fluidic or something as I also suggested running +Threat consoles to tank and build Conversion of Energy Stacks. (more Exotic Dmg).
If you max your Pgens... get a 3 stack of COE with Particle Manipulator it is very possible to see 7-8k Hits from TBR x 3 targets. (with a reversal doff its easy to group up the trash mob NPCs and drag em through the EWP...) Comboed with EWP (which also gains the Crit Chance from PM trait) you can chew through most NPC groups as fast as any scatter volley / FAW tac.
Disagree with jam sensors being low utility in pve. If you ever get stuck by tractor beams by the borg, scramble sensors can disable the tractor beam because the borg can no longer see you.
It can be quite handy.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Not sure you understand what Particle Manipulator does. 25% crit for every 100 pgen skill.
What is particle manipulator? i tried looking up the term on gamepedia but nothing came up.
Also i've seen people using the reverse tbr to drag stuff around, but combining it with EWP is pretty funny. That's like grabbing someones head, holding it up to your butt and farting lol
Disagree with jam sensors being low utility in pve. If you ever get stuck by tractor beams by the borg, scramble sensors can disable the tractor beam because the borg can no longer see you.
It can be quite handy.
Scramble or Jam? Personally, for Tractor Beam countering, I prefer Polarize Hull for the added damage res so you can continue to take damage, build resist and CoE stacks and even energy if using the MACO shield.
What is particle manipulator? i tried looking up the term on gamepedia but nothing came up.
Also i've seen people using the reverse tbr to drag stuff around, but combining it with EWP is pretty funny. That's like grabbing someones head, holding it up to your butt and farting lol
It's the trait unlocked when reaching level 15 in the Science crafting school.
I've been experimenting lately with building an energy DPS science vessel using the Mirror DSSV, just to prove it can be done. So far I've only made it to 8.5K chaining TBR, but that's just with Mk XII blue Tac consoles, and VR Mk XI plasma weapons, without Particle Manipulator. I'll be switching up to torps soon to see how much of a boost that'll give me in ISE pug runs.
What is particle manipulator? i tried looking up the term on gamepedia but nothing came up.
Also i've seen people using the reverse tbr to drag stuff around, but combining it with EWP is pretty funny. That's like grabbing someones head, holding it up to your butt and farting lol
You paint quite the picture. lol
Particle Manipulator is the Crafting trait you gain when you Level the Science School to 15.
Particle Manipulator
- Gain 25% critical hit chance on Exotic damaging skills for every 100 points in Particle Generators.
So if you just put 9 points in the skill tree things like Gravity well, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Tykens (the dmg part of the skill), Photonic Shockwave... as well as some torpedo procs and some Rep/Item skills, EWP as it is exotic dmg asso gains a chance to crit.
If you stack Pgens up to 400 or more its 100% crit. That is pretty hard to do with out really really dedicating to all the new Pgen Crafting consoles + pretty much any and every uni console and +PGen deflector you can get. However sitting at 200-300 isn't hard to do at all which easily sits you over 50% Crit Hit on exotic.
aww TRIBBLE...i had only planned on leveling crafting on my Tac main. Dunno if i play my Sci enough or if i like them enough to level the Science School to 15.
aww TRIBBLE...i had only planned on leveling crafting on my Tac main. Dunno if i play my Sci enough or if i like them enough to level the Science School to 15.
Just start the 20hr mission every day... costs you next to nothing.
Doing just that it is just under 90 days (3 months) to level. Even if you skip a lot of days still will have it done before Xmas with out spending anything for it. If you decide you want it you can do the 20hr and craft 2-4 consoles at the same time. Depending how much you play that toon you can have it done pretty quickly with out it really costing you anything. (you can sell the consoles you craft for what they cost mostly... in fact you can turn a profit depending on the market)
I'm late to this thread (discovered it while searching for info on PM trait) but I can attest that it's possible to be effective as a Sci in both PvE and PvP - provided you commit fully to the play style.
For example, after running as a Fed Tac for 2.5 years, I rolled my first new toon - a Reman Sci (KDF-aligned). And, of course, I made lots of mistakes as I learned how to do "Science" in STO. It wasn't until I gave up my Tac-focus (you'll never be as good at "pew-pew" as a real Tac) and jumped into a proper Sci-focused build that I finally became "comfortable" in my Sci "skin."
I now fly a Romulan Temporal Science Vessel (R'mor class) that literally has no Tac consoles (dumping ground for universals) and no Tac officers at any of its bridge stations. I run with full aux at all times (the rest of the power is split between shields/engines) and absolutely shred stuff in PvE and PvP with a combination of TBR2/3 (doff'd to reverse the direction of the pulses), ~280 in Part Gen skills (through 9 points + 4 embassy consoles + solanae deflector) and EWP.
I'm now working on my Science crafting skills to get the PM trait at level 15. Once I have that, and perhaps a sixth doff slot, my build will be complete. But even now, it is the most OP ship I've ever flown, and I frequently place 1st in CCE by simply parking next to the CE (0Km range) and spamming my exotics, torps and mines all over it.
Note: For PvP, I swap to TBR2 + FBP3 for the lolz...
If you're looking to do Scimitar / Avenger / Mogh DPS numbers, you're not going to do that with a true science ship.
You can still do respectable enough damage to not be a gaping black hole of missing DPS for your group.
The key with science ships and the associated abilities is in general, not about the weapons you carry, though they may be a factor for certain builds (like GW+TS+Dyson Grav Torp). Your weapons are not what define your capability mostly with sci ships, but what Science abilities you load. Eng & Tac BOFF abilities also can enhance them.
Everyone wants to talk about DPS with science ships, but quite honestly you can be more effective in your team by concentrating your efforts with CC and heals.
Grav Well isn't just a great DPS, it's also a great CC. Same with (reversed) TBR.
Using a Target Shield and Tyken's and Energy Siphon can drop a shied quicker then most people blink. That's all great for your DPS especially just before your Torp Spread goes off, but imagine suddenly doing that when you have Scim on your team. Nothing... NOTHING lives through that.
With Sci sometimes to not think pure DPS for you, and think "What will get the most DPS for my team". Spamming Grav Well is great. Hitting it at just the right time is epic.
My personal favorite combo right now is Grav Well + Tyken's Rift. Grav Well pulls them in, Tyken's Rift them to do more damage and drain their energy. Add a Energy Siphon to a Artillary ship, and let all those little assault ships it's launching blow up in it's face.
You won't get the dps parse for it, but those warp explosions can be a serious bane to a trapped boss mob.
there is something very crappy with how the science ships are handled in this game.
- first of all, with a sci ship ( i mean with real sci ship, not the tac/sci ships) you can't do a lot of dps, so how you can earn purple gears from stfs .
- most of the sci abilities seem really meh. My nebula has grav well3 with more than 1500 kinetic damage, + a lot of stuffs to increase exotic damages; but in fact i don't see a lot of efficiency.
- feedback pulse -> meh
- tractor beam -> meh
only the healing abilities are good.
I'm sorry to say sir you have no idea what you are talking about.
There are a lot of builds using part gen boosters and hull hammer skills that can wipe most enemies faster than you think. Try this get 5 fleet part gen consoles mk12 mix that with TBR with pulling doff / Grav torp TS 1 or 2 / GW3 / isometric charge / T5 nukara rep cascade and watch the fireworks
Comments
Doesn't sensor analysis require you to hold the target lock, though?
So...Sci's can do a mean burst every three minutes! Wow...that's so OP...while we're waiting 3 minutes for IC to cooldown, a minute for GW III to cooldown, and 30 seconds for TS III to cooldown a Tac is putting out steady and strong damage.
Plus honestly...how many Sci ships have a Lt Cmdr Tac? Not a whole lot of them.
Cryptic hates Science, plain and simple...especially after I looked at the horrible stats of the Scryer...I mean come on.
2 Tac consoles, Lt Tac (Which means you can't use the dual cannons effectively unless you play A2B...on a Sci ship.) and it would appear no SA but the kept the useless SST...so this is effectively the weakest Science ship in the game.
Ship build coordinator for The Breakfast Club http://WWW.TBCSTO.COM
Doesn't Owe Anyone EC
Kirks Prot
It has been changed to a toggle ability. It can also be placed on an ally to increase your healing on them.
I would also like to add that it will get its 6 stacks while the target (friend or foe) is within 10 km even if you don't keep it targeted.
I like to target the transformer and hit SA then go and kill the generators so when I retarget the transformer I have my 6 stacks all ready.
There may be a lack of sci ships compared to tac or cruisers, but the ones in the game can be used very effectively.
To be honest, TSII works almost as well with the GWIII/Grav Torp build. I was regularly getting first place in the Crystalline Cataclysm Event on my Engi Romulan in my Story/Lobi DSD using that combo, and my Sci fed char in a Vesta was no slouch either, getting 2-3rd place most times and the odd first place, and he's a character that I haven't come close to finishing my build on (lacking most of the Rep gear I want, and using mostly Story mission based equipment up to the Breen FE... and honestly I don't focus on getting the most optimal build). Results that surprised the heck out of me.
So, yeah, it's definitely possible to build a Sci ship for DPS if you really want to, but it'll be spike DPS, based over a large number of targets rather than a focused steady stream of DPS on one target. But there's nothing wrong with that, especially in PvE.
A lot of spike damage builds can put out enormous hits and vape anything they go up against but yet their dps will be really low due to com various cool downs.
Science ships can put out pretty huge spike damage too and using grav wells and TS as above is just one example.
It's just different ways of approaching the same issue. Yes an escort or cruiser can put out more damage and will move one the next target quickly but in a sci boat you can easily wipe out the whole wave in one go with some careful planning.
I didn't say they couldn't...but normally you need to specialize in one area...and damage is probably the weakest area for Sci.
I love Sci abilities...they're really fun...just they suffer. It's just so much easier to throw beams on a ship in PvE or DBB and Cannons in PvP and just fire away than use and build for Sci powers.
They just really don't care much...the Scryer only makes me feel that even more...I mean you got a Nice BC and a nice Escort...but the T6 Sci ship is just complete trash...even if it had SA the only thing that would set it above the weaker Sci ships is the Intel abilities.
The Ha'nom...which isn't a great Sci ship puts the Scryer to shame, SA, 3 tac consoles, and BC...just so much better.
Without SA it a lot of draining/damage, why take a Scryer when you can take the BC with more tac slots, 3rd tac console, and 2 more weapons or the Escort with 1 more weapon and 3 more tac consoles?
I have no problems getting 1st-3rd in my Vesta...that doesn't mean a whole lot. In case you haven't noticed the skill cap in STO is pretty HUGE. Not to mention that the Vesta is the strongest and the DSD is one of the strongest below the Vesta...
I myself play a Sci character in a Vesta...I play a cannon build...a cannon build without just stacking a bunch of Aux cannons, I use regular wepaons and have 125 weapon power...plus I use Advanced Danubes atm...I go from as far as optimal as I can and I can regularly get in the top 3...the only thing *optimal* about my ship is I fly the Recon verison.
If you can do it in something like the DSSV then that may be a more worthy accomplishment....
Photonic Shockwave. Premise is a good ability. It is a repel, disable, and damage ability all in one. Problem is that to make it effective it cost a lot of skill points. You have to spec into grav gen, particle gen, and sub space decompiler. Few years ago it was doing more damage, but cryptic found it was doing twice what is was suppose to. Now the damage is dismal at best. It would be better with shield pen. Also there is no console the boost the component that give the disable. The disable cost 3000 skill point per tic while the counter to the disable subsystem repair cost half as much. One other thing is the radius needs to be expanded. I would change the way this work. Make the damage, repel, and disable be based off aux power. Increase the radius to 5km, everything with in 3 km takes full damage and everything 3-5 takes half.
Viral matrix. This works? Sounds good but all NPCs seem to ignore it. And the NPCs that don't you don't need to use it one. This is a complete waste of a power in PvE. PvP once again subsystem repair makes it useless, unless you get lucky and find someone with a week skill. In a group or premade it could be made viable.
Tractor beam: great ability in PvE specially with a shield drain doff. It is a decent hold damage could be doubled in my opinion. In PvP this sucks damage is not good and there are to many counter. Escort and science vessel can easily run off and cruisers just wipe the damage off.
Energy drain abilities are ok. Cheap to spec into and against the right targets they excell. The problem is it is either one extreme of the other. In both PvE and PvP they either cripple you or you wipe it off. The problem I have with it is resist to drain is to high and there needs to be a rock bottom a player can be drained to, let's say a min of 15 power in all level. Is the min a player can be drained.
Shields Drains suffer from to much resistance to be useful in PvP but in PvE once shields are downt eh ability become useless, much like Borg STFs. To many unshielded targets.
Scramble sensors just needs to work for the prescribed time and work on high end NPCs
Jam sensors, I would change the way it works, make it throwable. This would allow science players to hide target the have aggro and give them a few seconds to catch a cooldown. So if a tank or a escort is taking to much damage the science ability will hid the target it is thrown on.
Mask energy. Increase make it a combination of the old jam sensor and current mask energy. Increase the damage required before buff is lost. With the way power creep is now, this needs a buff.
oh! ok thx; i'm going to take a look at the settings
here is my build : (exotic damage build) skill : starship particle generator : 3
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=nebulama2_0
power:
weapon: 125
shield : 80
engine : 47
aux : 81
I'm not sure to keep the CC deflector
oh i made a mistake in my first post: my grav well 3 deals 950 dps, not 1500; sorry
btw, i don't want pure DPS, but only the chance to be more effective against average ships (nicor, small cruisers etc). I use as reference the undine stfs because they are the hardest. In the other stfs (borgs, etc), nobody needs a healer and sci abilities are not needed when you are with 2 or 3 OP ships :P . And borgs don't seem affected by sci abilities. My hope is that all the stfs will be as hard than the undine stfs; at least, each class of ships has a real job to do.
Sci is;
1) Not a weapon DPS class.
2) The best class you can possibly have on your team. (for PvP OR PvE)
3) The class that has benefited the most from almost every change the past year.
Sci PvE DPS is stupid simple once you realize your DPS as a sci is NOT about your beam weapons.
Here are some tips... if you can't figure it out from there you should not be playing a sci.
- Sensor Ann will stack up to 25% dmg boost on a single target. Does this help you against a grouping of spheres no... but will it help you disintegrate a gate solo. YES.
- Energy weapons are pointless. EXOTIC dmg is how a sci creates dmg. You have 2 Traits you want for that. 1-Conversion of Energy 2-Particle Manipulator. If you want to play DMG sci you really should have or be working toward having PM.
- Torpedoes are the only way to go for Sci DPS. They are high dmg and the nature of Base dmg calculations in STO, mean even a Lowly Rep Photon with NO tac consoles at all... can hit 40-60k Crit hits like crazy on debuffed gates when you are using a Proper Sensor Ann / debuff stack.
- AOE control skills. Gravity well is one of the most useful utility skills in PvE right now. Great for grabbing spawns of probes spheres and for controlling things like HY torps from undine.
- Torpedo Spread is your friend. If you are running something like faw you have failed so very hard building your sci.
- Power settings... your in a science ship not an escort. Weapon power is not important most of the time. Have 2 settings one Full aux... and one Full weapons. ONLY switch to full weapons when ALL of your aux dependent skills are on cool down for awhile. (really all you should have is 1-3 energy weapons anyway... standard DPS sci build would be something like...
Experimental Proton - Graviton Photon - Bio Enhanced Photon
360 Beam array - Cutting Beam - Heavy Dis/Phaser Turret.
Trust me with that exact weapon setup I can parse 28k in ISE... stop thinking like a Cruiser Kirk.
- Look for Skill synergies. Have a Sci ship with a LT Cmd Engi... why not combo something like Eject Warp Plasma with Tractor repulsor + a DOFF.
- USE your stupid Sub disables. Yes they are weak. No they are not direct DPS... still lowering DPS or Stopping a Fleeing EPTE running Sphere... or yes sometimes when you COMBO (Synergies remember) You can easily drop the shields right off a tac cube. (Then More SYNERGIES you are firing TORPS Boom Boom)
- Last tip I'll post... REMOVE your stupid -threat consoles. So often I see sci players in STF ques taking no argo... great you don't die thats nice. You are also NOT building stacks of Conversion of Energy. Run enough armor and heals to survive some tanking... pull that argo, build 3 stacks and if You have Particle Manipulator for sure your Exotic DMG will more then equal any and all but the most Extreme Min Maxed Tac builds.
One final bit of advise here is a list of all the DMG Science Skills and what you should be doing with them in PvE.
Gravity well - AOE hold, pull together the trash combo with things like Torp spread and AOE weapons like cluster torps to remove entire groups and rack up massive DPS score if you care about such things.
Tykens Rift - AOE drain, Don't use it on trash... if you run it save it for things like Tac Cubes and cobmo it with Target Shields. (why not its free)
Tractor beam repulstors - Main Stay SCI DPS skill... this is the Exotic Dmg version of FAW. That should sum it up for those that don't know. However Run a TBR reversal Doff so you don't just scatter mobs all over the place.
Tractor Beam - Not as useful in PvE... however can still be useful on something like say a sci carrier where stopping a NPC will allow your pets to kill it very fast.
Photonic Shockwave. Low DPS for PvE... however can be semi useful on Some ParticleM builds Again more of a PvP skill where it will counter channeled skills like TBR.
Feedback pulse. - Again don't bother with this skill in PvE. It returns dmg sure but almost none of the NPCs in STO shoot more then one energy weapon at you anyway. The return is pitiful because the NPCS are. Most NPC dmg comes from Kinetic dmg.
Energy Siphen. NPCs don't counter this so it is a nice DPS reducer on gates or a Synergy skill to shut shields down. Bonus is it boosts your own power.
Scramble Sensors - Don't bother for PvE. Long cool down... the scramble doesn't last all that long... and won't even effect stronger mobs.
Viral Matrix - Same thing as SS... its a good PvP skill if you use it right but in PvE its effect is to short its cool down to long and higher end mobs are immune or so resisted they may as well be.
Jam sensors - Not a great PvE skill... it breaks to easy and really you should be able to tank with skills that are up far more often. This is another Semi useful PvP skill.
i don't want to have a torp boat, i'm not interested by this way of playing :P,
however i have followed some of your advices; -threat replaced by + threat (only 2 for now)
What is the name or type of that one? Is it available on the Exchange or from DOFF missions? Or was it a lockbox thingy?
Even if you neutral them out you should be good... some - some +.
Just make sure you have enough tank to handle a bit of argo of course.
I always sound harsh don't get me wrong you can do sci with out torps. Honestly though once you go that way you will never ever go back.
Run a hyrbid... some energy (for disables ect) and 1-2 torps. That seems to work best imo... for both CC (some torp procs are awsome and reliable).. healing (put more power in aux)... and DMG (torps still hit harder then anything else and sci have so many ways to get to hull with them.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=nebulahus_0
Consider trying something like that out.
Set power levels to something like ... 50 25 25 100.. with a second setting at 100 25 25 50. Keep in mind if you run the Nukura +DMG based on aux power levels running at 50 weapon power isn't as crazy as it seems. You may even want to experiment with a 75 25 25 75 setting. Not sure if you have a Plasmotic Leech console (there expensive right now if you don't) there not required but if you have one perhaps run 2 armours with a leech instead of 3.
For doffs you could run plenty of things... only required one really would be the TBR reversal doff.
After that you could Spend doffs lowering cool downs on Teams for better tanking... or you could run a Matter Anti Matter that disables engines on targets effected by EWP (not sure how good it really is in pve most NPCS stop in it anyway) If you really want more DPS you can even put in 1-3 Torpedo Doffs.
For rep traits Run something like ... Both Nukura Aux power + Omega kinetic shearing + Nano shield or something.
For the other traits... if you run torps Intimedating strikes is very nice to have.
Other then that Conversion of Energy... and if you have it Particle Manipulator (if you don't have it start working on it) run the 20hr science mission every day. If you can make cheap consoles as well to speed it up. (forget the other schools till you have the sci one and the trait done) With the build I posted + 9 points in Particle Generators that build would have around 60% crit on exotic dmg. (TBR in that builds case... and the fluidic console dmg if you hit NPCS with it)
Yes I didn't put any tac consoles in you don't need them. Run one escape console like the fluidic universal so you can GTF if for some reason you are having issues tanking a gate or something if your team isn't helping enough in some way.
PS In case it wasn't super obvious this is a lot of rep stuff... the Gravity Torp + Experimental Proton wepaon + console will mean MORE Photon dmg + More Crit hit and Crit D. The bio torp + heavy turret will give you a nice constant slow proc on a single target (or on tons with spread... but spread with Gravity torp is insane in PvE)
Also of course make the build your own... if you would like to continue running say GW 3 you can for sure do that. Just run one TBR 2 + GW 3... cool downs are longer but it would do a great job cleaning up spheres in infected ect.
They come out of the Voth Duty officer pack... which is a drop from the Voth lockbox.
There tractor beam doffs with these names
Fed - Graga Mal
KDF - Falla Okev
Think there around 8mil right now on the exchange. TBR is popular so they have spiked a bit. They drop to around 5-6mil during the week.
Lose EP2E and slot EP2S, the Nebula is already tanky and if you're worried about speed, grab an engine battery. I also use the fleet consoles to add to turn rate and defenses, but I know a lot of people can't make that investment either w/ dilith or having a fleet at that level. Either way, though, I highly suggest if you run a TBR build to pull in enemies, slot at least one mine to a rear slot. It'll increase your dps a lot more than a turret will (unless it's a long cd, like a tricobalt), and since you're ignoring +mine dmg consoles you can drop in any type of dmg you want for the dmg procs. I normally aim for the low cd ones since I enjoy littering the area with mines as I aggro everything, but can let loose with some great spike dmg with the nukara web ones since they deal a non-resist dmg type in space. And with any torp sci boat, no need to run weapons at much power, since even the turrets are only there for the proc chance--hence why it should be plasma or disruptor for the most part.
The Nebula can tank even better with an Engi Captain at her helm since you get an extra saving roll (Miracle Worker, twice with trait) and a decent shield power. I also wouldn't recommend running an A2Bat build without being an Engi since it gets dicey at times, heh.
99 from skill tree... 150 or so from consoles... and another 20-30 depending on which Pgen deflector you run. makes for 60-75% Crit hit on exotic dmg skills. Meaning that TBR 3 will be hitting for 4-5k per crit hit... on up to 3 NPCs at a time.
On the torp dmg yes indeed it is a large part of the dmg... I run the Dyson console which gives you pretty much one torp console. (as well as 10% crit chance on BOTH rep photons... as well as 10% CrtD for running the 3 piece) Running a second torp dmg console... sure it may give you a bit of dmg. I simply suggested it may be wise to run a fluidic or something as I also suggested running +Threat consoles to tank and build Conversion of Energy Stacks. (more Exotic Dmg).
If you max your Pgens... get a 3 stack of COE with Particle Manipulator it is very possible to see 7-8k Hits from TBR x 3 targets. (with a reversal doff its easy to group up the trash mob NPCs and drag em through the EWP...) Comboed with EWP (which also gains the Crit Chance from PM trait) you can chew through most NPC groups as fast as any scatter volley / FAW tac.
It can be quite handy.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
What is particle manipulator? i tried looking up the term on gamepedia but nothing came up.
Also i've seen people using the reverse tbr to drag stuff around, but combining it with EWP is pretty funny. That's like grabbing someones head, holding it up to your butt and farting lol
Scramble or Jam? Personally, for Tractor Beam countering, I prefer Polarize Hull for the added damage res so you can continue to take damage, build resist and CoE stacks and even energy if using the MACO shield.
It's the trait unlocked when reaching level 15 in the Science crafting school.
I've been experimenting lately with building an energy DPS science vessel using the Mirror DSSV, just to prove it can be done. So far I've only made it to 8.5K chaining TBR, but that's just with Mk XII blue Tac consoles, and VR Mk XI plasma weapons, without Particle Manipulator. I'll be switching up to torps soon to see how much of a boost that'll give me in ISE pug runs.
You paint quite the picture. lol
Particle Manipulator is the Crafting trait you gain when you Level the Science School to 15.
Particle Manipulator
- Gain 25% critical hit chance on Exotic damaging skills for every 100 points in Particle Generators.
So if you just put 9 points in the skill tree things like Gravity well, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Tykens (the dmg part of the skill), Photonic Shockwave... as well as some torpedo procs and some Rep/Item skills, EWP as it is exotic dmg asso gains a chance to crit.
If you stack Pgens up to 400 or more its 100% crit. That is pretty hard to do with out really really dedicating to all the new Pgen Crafting consoles + pretty much any and every uni console and +PGen deflector you can get. However sitting at 200-300 isn't hard to do at all which easily sits you over 50% Crit Hit on exotic.
Just start the 20hr mission every day... costs you next to nothing.
Doing just that it is just under 90 days (3 months) to level. Even if you skip a lot of days still will have it done before Xmas with out spending anything for it. If you decide you want it you can do the 20hr and craft 2-4 consoles at the same time. Depending how much you play that toon you can have it done pretty quickly with out it really costing you anything. (you can sell the consoles you craft for what they cost mostly... in fact you can turn a profit depending on the market)
For example, after running as a Fed Tac for 2.5 years, I rolled my first new toon - a Reman Sci (KDF-aligned). And, of course, I made lots of mistakes as I learned how to do "Science" in STO. It wasn't until I gave up my Tac-focus (you'll never be as good at "pew-pew" as a real Tac) and jumped into a proper Sci-focused build that I finally became "comfortable" in my Sci "skin."
I now fly a Romulan Temporal Science Vessel (R'mor class) that literally has no Tac consoles (dumping ground for universals) and no Tac officers at any of its bridge stations. I run with full aux at all times (the rest of the power is split between shields/engines) and absolutely shred stuff in PvE and PvP with a combination of TBR2/3 (doff'd to reverse the direction of the pulses), ~280 in Part Gen skills (through 9 points + 4 embassy consoles + solanae deflector) and EWP.
I'm now working on my Science crafting skills to get the PM trait at level 15. Once I have that, and perhaps a sixth doff slot, my build will be complete. But even now, it is the most OP ship I've ever flown, and I frequently place 1st in CCE by simply parking next to the CE (0Km range) and spamming my exotics, torps and mines all over it.
Note: For PvP, I swap to TBR2 + FBP3 for the lolz...
RCK
Particle Generators
Particle Generators
Particle Generators
or
Flow Capacitors if you're a Drain Boat.
If you're looking to do Scimitar / Avenger / Mogh DPS numbers, you're not going to do that with a true science ship.
You can still do respectable enough damage to not be a gaping black hole of missing DPS for your group.
The key with science ships and the associated abilities is in general, not about the weapons you carry, though they may be a factor for certain builds (like GW+TS+Dyson Grav Torp). Your weapons are not what define your capability mostly with sci ships, but what Science abilities you load. Eng & Tac BOFF abilities also can enhance them.
Grav Well isn't just a great DPS, it's also a great CC. Same with (reversed) TBR.
Using a Target Shield and Tyken's and Energy Siphon can drop a shied quicker then most people blink. That's all great for your DPS especially just before your Torp Spread goes off, but imagine suddenly doing that when you have Scim on your team. Nothing... NOTHING lives through that.
With Sci sometimes to not think pure DPS for you, and think "What will get the most DPS for my team". Spamming Grav Well is great. Hitting it at just the right time is epic.
My personal favorite combo right now is Grav Well + Tyken's Rift. Grav Well pulls them in, Tyken's Rift them to do more damage and drain their energy. Add a Energy Siphon to a Artillary ship, and let all those little assault ships it's launching blow up in it's face.
You won't get the dps parse for it, but those warp explosions can be a serious bane to a trapped boss mob.
I'm sorry to say sir you have no idea what you are talking about.
There are a lot of builds using part gen boosters and hull hammer skills that can wipe most enemies faster than you think. Try this get 5 fleet part gen consoles mk12 mix that with TBR with pulling doff / Grav torp TS 1 or 2 / GW3 / isometric charge / T5 nukara rep cascade and watch the fireworks