If you're looking to do Scimitar / Avenger / Mogh DPS numbers, you're not going to do that with a true science ship.
You can still do respectable enough damage to not be a gaping black hole of missing DPS for your group.
The key with science ships and the associated abilities is in general, not about the weapons you carry, though they may be a factor for certain builds (like GW+TS+Dyson Grav Torp). Your weapons are not what define your capability mostly with sci ships, but what Science abilities you load. Eng & Tac BOFF abilities also can enhance them.
As i'm not agree with the OP and I'm a focus science player. I this the feeling of science is not so good because most of people look at the dps only and nothing else.
yes with a science you will never do an amazing dps, but you will kick TRIBBLE in many different and amazing way.
It happen to me in some STf i was insult by some player because my dps was low ( compare to other tac) even if i heal them, pull all the enemies together, debuff them ....
So the mentalities in the game need to change about that.
Just an injection remark here but I'd switch all my characters to tactical career if I could.
They could keep their ships but minus pvp and tanking on the ground in the old days on eSTF as sci, those careers are totally played out in my opinion.
Sci boats should probably have a 4:3 or 4:4 weapons loadout like everyone else (the karfi does). The bottleneck isn't really how many weapons, it's tac console slots, of which they also have fewer (except the karfi).
It's a double whammy as-is, but that's just the simple part.
Then you get into skill spreads where you're balancing between min/maxing abilities vs weapon strength, and having so few points to go around by the time you actually get to those areas. The sheer number of related skills vs the possible loadouts means you're going to sacrifice something, be it weapon strength, healing/hps or exotics.
On top of that you have to know how to actually manage your power levels and are very much more gear dependent than the other classes.
It's like if you had to label boats it would go; escorts are easy, cruisers are normal and science are hard.
Sci boats should probably have a 4:3 or 4:4 weapons loadout like everyone else (the karfi does). The bottleneck isn't really how many weapons, it's tac console slots, of which they also have fewer (except the karfi).
It's a double whammy as-is, but that's just the simple part.
Then you get into skill spreads where you're balancing between min/maxing abilities vs weapon strength, and having so few points to go around by the time you actually get to those areas. The sheer number of related skills vs the possible loadouts means you're going to sacrifice something, be it weapon strength, healing/hps or exotics.
On top of that you have to know how to actually manage your power levels and are very much more gear dependent than the other classes.
It's like if you had to label boats it would go; escorts are easy, cruisers are normal and science are hard.
I don't think give more weapons slot for science ships is need, because first when you are in science ship your beam (or whatever you use as weapons) are the last thing of your dps tools, and if you run a science ship your weapons power level should be low because your power is in aux and shield. So more beam will mean even less dps.
I think and feel the dps of science is really great already but the look of the other player need to change.
I run a pure sci Fleet Quasar.....all I can say is during the crystalline entity event...I regularly placed 1st or 2nd in damage.....so, it does work for something, n'est-ce pas?
I also notice that I very seldom die in my Sci vessel...like almost never.....whereas my tac and Engineering ships suffer a fair amount of blow outs in STFs and such.....
I'm doing perfectly fine in PvE(still avoiding PvP like the plague) with my Fleet Nebula...it's almost entirely Reputation-gear, and setup for crowd-control/support with Grav Well III, TBR, Eject Warp Plasma, a Graviton Pulse Generator, the Gravimetric Torp launcher, and, just to be sure I can deal -some- damage, an Aceton Assimilator, Isometric Charge, and every Rep power I could get my hands on!
Yeah, I don't do a lotta dps(I tend to top out at around 3,400), but I still do my part to help keep things under control(see what I did there?) and my teammates alive, so I'm happy....
Science is the MOST powerful class in PvP, but lately I'm starting to think it's the most powerful class in the game.
I am part of a team that specializes in blowing up cubes in CSE without having to blow up probes. Science is critical to this. I mean the results can be reproduced with just tacs, but science guarantees a cube will be brought down.
I couldn't believe it when I saw it, but cubes blow up in less 3 seconds with all probes still present.
Would you mind elaborating a bit? I admit as a new science captain, I'm curious. Thanks!
It's interesting that I saw this post, as I just made a Science build video. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to build a science ship. I built mine as a Grav Well/Torpedo boat. Check out the link below, fair warning my gear isn't great but even with the gear I have I can run every PvE just fine. The trick is finding the build that works for your play-style and stitches together a certain level of synergy with all it's parts.
From what I'm reading from Tribble, it seems sci is being made obsolete for running PvE elite content thanks to the devs elite design philosophy or more health=harder content.
Well sir I really have to question your build and your understanding of science powers. Feed back pulse is an awesome power. The problem with it is not the skill it is the players using it in PVE. I run a feedback pulse bud in STFs and it does some insane damage. The trick to feed back pulse is having threat, which most ayers don't spec into. I run it in Palisades with five threat gen, shield heal, Mk XII particle gens. The stacking of threat gen consoles and being speced into threat I always have it. My feedback pulse 3 averages 1500-2500 dps in STFs.
Please post your build and I would love to help suggest improvements.
I run a pure sci Fleet Quasar.....all I can say is during the crystalline entity event...I regularly placed 1st or 2nd in damage.....so, it does work for something, n'est-ce pas?
I also notice that I very seldom die in my Sci vessel...like almost never.....whereas my tac and Engineering ships suffer a fair amount of blow outs in STFs and such.....
Yup, that works great against NPCs. TBR also rips hulls.
...especially if said hulls are already caught in a Gravity Well and/or Gravimetric Torp proc. effect...lots of kinetic damage for little to no effort...like watching a soccer ball getting punted around!
...especially if said hulls are already caught in a Gravity Well and/or Gravimetric Torp proc. effect...lots of kinetic damage for little to no effort...like watching a soccer ball getting punted around!
Indeed, I find FBP to be less useful in PvE as it is in PvP, but still whatever floats your boat. Honestly unless you're going for a niche sci build, say snooper, you're better off running a tac captain with high partgens right now, alpha, tac fleet affect your exotic damage, so TBR builds are the rage right now, massive damage, and it's an awesome support role for your team.
It should also be known that with TBR there's some nuances.
1. Lots of people, especially if you PUG things, hate how TBR pushes targets away. I generally like Science, but it's annoying when I'm shooting something up, in good position and good range, enemy shields are down, then ZAP! Someone's TBR pushes my target away to something like 10km away. You need to know the proper situation to use TBR.
-- On the flip side to this, in the middle portion of KASE, when the bunch of probes and spheres start coming out of a Borg Gate (the phase before Donatra appears), someone was in position to catch them and TBR them back towards the Gate. Fortunately, I saw this and I used GW3 on the Gate and it took the entire bunch of probes and spheres that were TBR'd back to the Gate for easy, focused AOE DPS by everyone.
2. There's a DOFF that reverses the "Push" of TBR to a "Pull" but it costs effectiveness.
3. Gravton Generator Skill and Aux Power contribute to the Push effect of TBR.
4. Particle Generator Skill contribute to TBR's damage.
Indeed, I find FBP to be less useful in PvE as it is in PvP, but still whatever floats your boat. Honestly unless you're going for a niche sci build, say snooper, you're better off running a tac captain with high partgens right now, alpha, tac fleet affect your exotic damage, so TBR builds are the rage right now, massive damage, and it's an awesome support role for your team.
The TAC BUFFs are no joke to a FBP build.
Even before LOR, I remember experimenting with my KDF TAC in around LOR's release.
Few people could resist shooting at a Carrier. A properly plaid Carrier is something that cannot be ignored, yet with that same proper play, you have a lot of defensive longevity. So, with a Carrier being so tempting a target, that's what I was looking to take advantage of.
High Aux Power + FBP3
I was in the old school faction, FvK C&H map, specifically between the central capture point and one of closest other capture point in the asteroid belt, lower in "height" / Z coordinate.
I was already running high Aux Power as a Carrier. I had things set up so I can quickly pop PH1, APO1, FBP3, APA in very quick succession when I need it. I was specifically hoping it would be decloakers / high alpha strikers going after me.
FBP is extremely good under these admittedly tight parameters. I recall getting 2 Roms that were both decloaking on me at the same time. They both blew up within 3-4 seconds of initiating their attack.
The catch though with FBP builds in PVP is that savvy players will see what you're doing and avoid you, or trying to time their attacks between cooldowns. You better have your defensive abilities ready. Also, if you are that good with your FBP play, you may get ignored as a target. Which is fine but in some ways defeats the purpose of having such a build. The key then is to come up with a build and style to maximize that. Having the deterrence of FBP but still doing other things to support what the team is doing so that it makes it more difficult to ignore you.
there Is Something Very Crappy With How The Science Ships Are Handled In This Game.
- First Of All, With A Sci Ship ( I Mean With Real Sci Ship, Not The Tac/sci Ships) You Can't Do A Lot Of Dps, So How You Can Earn Purple Gears From Stfs .
- Most Of The Sci Abilities Seem Really Meh. My Nebula Has Grav Well3 With More Than 1500 Kinetic Damage, + A Lot Of Stuffs To Increase Exotic Damages; But In Fact I Don't See A Lot Of Efficiency.
- Feedback Pulse -> Meh
- Tractor Beam -> Meh
Only The Healing Abilities Are Good.
There Is Also A Real Problem, With The Power Of These Ships; I Like To Heal Teamates But When I Spend 15000 Years For Destroying A Ship, During This Time As A Healer I'm Useless. I Don't Want Dps Monsters, But Ships Which Has 2 Tac Consoles, Should Be Upgraded To 3. Btw In Tng A Nebula Was Able To Destroy A Class Galor
I Know The Luna Class And The Other With 4 Tac Consoles, But There Are Not Interesting For A Healer Because They Can't Take A Lot Of Damages. Same Thing For The Vesta ( I Have This Ship); I'm Not Interested By Tac/sci Ships.
During A Fight Particularly In Viscous Cycle Elite, Even If I Know That Someone Needs Help; With All The Bubbles, The Undine Grav Well, Most Of The Time I Don't See This Player. And If This Guy Uses A Small Ship, This Is Worse. I Think That A Red Icon/bar Should Appear (above The Fleet Name) When A Player Need Help ( - 50 % Shield, - 50% Hull).
When A Sci Ship Helps Someone, During This Time It Should Have A Protection Bonus (+ X% Damage Resistance Bonus Or Something Like That)
i Love How Completely Uninformed So Many Of This Games Players Are.
Sci Is;
1) Not A Weapon Dps Class.
2) The Best Class You Can Possibly Have On Your Team. (for Pvp Or Pve)
3) The Class That Has Benefited The Most From Almost Every Change The Past Year.
Sci Pve Dps Is Stupid Simple Once You Realize Your Dps As A Sci Is Not About Your Beam Weapons.
Here Are Some Tips... If You Can't Figure It Out From There You Should Not Be Playing A Sci.
- Sensor Ann Will Stack Up To 25% Dmg Boost On A Single Target. Does This Help You Against A Grouping Of Spheres No... But Will It Help You Disintegrate A Gate Solo. Yes.
- Energy Weapons Are Pointless. Exotic Dmg Is How A Sci Creates Dmg. You Have 2 Traits You Want For That. 1-conversion Of Energy 2-particle Manipulator. If You Want To Play Dmg Sci You Really Should Have Or Be Working Toward Having Pm.
- Torpedoes Are The Only Way To Go For Sci Dps. They Are High Dmg And The Nature Of Base Dmg Calculations In Sto, Mean Even A Lowly Rep Photon With No Tac Consoles At All... Can Hit 40-60k Crit Hits Like Crazy On Debuffed Gates When You Are Using A Proper Sensor Ann / Debuff Stack.
- Aoe Control Skills. Gravity Well Is One Of The Most Useful Utility Skills In Pve Right Now. Great For Grabbing Spawns Of Probes Spheres And For Controlling Things Like Hy Torps From Undine.
- Torpedo Spread Is Your Friend. If You Are Running Something Like Faw You Have Failed So Very Hard Building Your Sci.
- Power Settings... Your In A Science Ship Not An Escort. Weapon Power Is Not Important Most Of The Time. Have 2 Settings One Full Aux... And One Full Weapons. Only Switch To Full Weapons When All Of Your Aux Dependent Skills Are On Cool Down For Awhile. (really All You Should Have Is 1-3 Energy Weapons Anyway... Standard Dps Sci Build Would Be Something Like...
Experimental Proton - Graviton Photon - Bio Enhanced Photon
360 Beam Array - Cutting Beam - Heavy Dis/phaser Turret.
Trust Me With That Exact Weapon Setup I Can Parse 28k In Ise... Stop Thinking Like A Cruiser Kirk.
- Look For Skill Synergies. Have A Sci Ship With A Lt Cmd Engi... Why Not Combo Something Like Eject Warp Plasma With Tractor Repulsor + A Doff.
- Use Your Stupid Sub Disables. Yes They Are Weak. No They Are Not Direct Dps... Still Lowering Dps Or Stopping A Fleeing Epte Running Sphere... Or Yes Sometimes When You Combo (synergies Remember) You Can Easily Drop The Shields Right Off A Tac Cube. (then More Synergies You Are Firing Torps Boom Boom)
- Last Tip I'll Post... Remove Your Stupid -threat Consoles. So Often I See Sci Players In Stf Ques Taking No Argo... Great You Don't Die Thats Nice. You Are Also Not Building Stacks Of Conversion Of Energy. Run Enough Armor And Heals To Survive Some Tanking... Pull That Argo, Build 3 Stacks And If You Have Particle Manipulator For Sure Your Exotic Dmg Will More Then Equal Any And All But The Most Extreme Min Maxed Tac Builds.
One Final Bit Of Advise Here Is A List Of All The Dmg Science Skills And What You Should Be Doing With Them In Pve.
Gravity Well - Aoe Hold, Pull Together The Trash Combo With Things Like Torp Spread And Aoe Weapons Like Cluster Torps To Remove Entire Groups And Rack Up Massive Dps Score If You Care About Such Things.
Tykens Rift - Aoe Drain, Don't Use It On Trash... If You Run It Save It For Things Like Tac Cubes And Cobmo It With Target Shields. (why Not Its Free)
Tractor Beam Repulstors - Main Stay Sci Dps Skill... This Is The Exotic Dmg Version Of Faw. That Should Sum It Up For Those That Don't Know. However Run A Tbr Reversal Doff So You Don't Just Scatter Mobs All Over The Place.
Tractor Beam - Not As Useful In Pve... However Can Still Be Useful On Something Like Say A Sci Carrier Where Stopping A Npc Will Allow Your Pets To Kill It Very Fast.
Photonic Shockwave. Low Dps For Pve... However Can Be Semi Useful On Some Particlem Builds Again More Of A Pvp Skill Where It Will Counter Channeled Skills Like Tbr.
Feedback Pulse. - Again Don't Bother With This Skill In Pve. It Returns Dmg Sure But Almost None Of The Npcs In Sto Shoot More Then One Energy Weapon At You Anyway. The Return Is Pitiful Because The Npcs Are. Most Npc Dmg Comes From Kinetic Dmg.
Energy Siphen. Npcs Don't Counter This So It Is A Nice Dps Reducer On Gates Or A Synergy Skill To Shut Shields Down. Bonus Is It Boosts Your Own Power.
Scramble Sensors - Don't Bother For Pve. Long Cool Down... The Scramble Doesn't Last All That Long... And Won't Even Effect Stronger Mobs.
Viral Matrix - Same Thing As Ss... Its A Good Pvp Skill If You Use It Right But In Pve Its Effect Is To Short Its Cool Down To Long And Higher End Mobs Are Immune Or So Resisted They May As Well Be.
Jam Sensors - Not A Great Pve Skill... It Breaks To Easy And Really You Should Be Able To Tank With Skills That Are Up Far More Often. This Is Another Semi Useful Pvp Skill.
As a new player wanting to start a science captain aiming for a wells / torpedo boat long-term, does most of the advice given still hold up, especially this post?
As a new player wanting to start a science captain aiming for a wells / torpedo boat long-term, does most of the advice given still hold up, especially this post?
Its mostly still accurate. Delta Rising released a month after that post, and with the increased gear ratings and level cap swung things very very heavily in favor of tac captains running high-crit builds for a damage-is-everything game design. (More complicated than that, but thats the short version.) That said, a sci ship invested in Particle Generators and Particle Manipulator plus the right skill and gear setup is still extremely powerful, and while the absolute-top-end gear is extremely expensive, an affordable and easy-to-use setup is still quite strong. Its a little trickier to fly than a straight FAW-DPS ship, but someone who knows how to use their science ship as a science ship can be just devastating.
Sci ships and their high maneuverability can be loads of fun if used properly, with these being the only 2 reasons I don't fly them very often.
1) Most of them don't allow dual cannons. Unfortunately, broadsiding is a style of play I'm not really fond of, especially when you consider that many science abilities want you to face your target at least somewhat.
2) Sensor analysis. I'm not a fan of slow-building performance ramp-up abilities, and that's exactly what this is.
Sci ships need actuall planing to get top results unlike tac where you jst put the 5 best damage consoles on it and slam the spacebar. While firepower is "nice", for sci ships it's all about the powers.
This shows pretty good how little you know about sci...
This post here pretty much sums it all up. No as a pure sci you will never have to put in more effort then a tac, and you will never get to the level of a tac with a FAW ship, but you can most certainly build a science ship that is really good, and FBP is one of the top 5 science powers.
I really like the idea of a ship that can do decent DPS on it's own, but in combination with a strong DPS ship can make a devastating team (strip shields and pop!).
Will use the advice listed above and pay attention to the forums as much as possible.
Comments
As i'm not agree with the OP and I'm a focus science player. I this the feeling of science is not so good because most of people look at the dps only and nothing else.
yes with a science you will never do an amazing dps, but you will kick TRIBBLE in many different and amazing way.
It happen to me in some STf i was insult by some player because my dps was low ( compare to other tac) even if i heal them, pull all the enemies together, debuff them ....
So the mentalities in the game need to change about that.
They could keep their ships but minus pvp and tanking on the ground in the old days on eSTF as sci, those careers are totally played out in my opinion.
It's a double whammy as-is, but that's just the simple part.
Then you get into skill spreads where you're balancing between min/maxing abilities vs weapon strength, and having so few points to go around by the time you actually get to those areas. The sheer number of related skills vs the possible loadouts means you're going to sacrifice something, be it weapon strength, healing/hps or exotics.
On top of that you have to know how to actually manage your power levels and are very much more gear dependent than the other classes.
It's like if you had to label boats it would go; escorts are easy, cruisers are normal and science are hard.
I don't think give more weapons slot for science ships is need, because first when you are in science ship your beam (or whatever you use as weapons) are the last thing of your dps tools, and if you run a science ship your weapons power level should be low because your power is in aux and shield. So more beam will mean even less dps.
I think and feel the dps of science is really great already but the look of the other player need to change.
For exactly the reason you mention.
edit: Also I have sci boats that run 125 wep/125 aux that are perfectly viable, so the 'sci don't want weapons' is a bit of a myth.
I also notice that I very seldom die in my Sci vessel...like almost never.....whereas my tac and Engineering ships suffer a fair amount of blow outs in STFs and such.....
Yeah, I don't do a lotta dps(I tend to top out at around 3,400), but I still do my part to help keep things under control(see what I did there?) and my teammates alive, so I'm happy....
Would you mind elaborating a bit? I admit as a new science captain, I'm curious. Thanks!
http://youtu.be/0tQ4R0iEKQY
[SIGPIC]Click here to visit my STO YouTube channel[/SIGPIC]
Can confirm, run a similar build.
Yup, that works great against NPCs. TBR also rips hulls.
...especially if said hulls are already caught in a Gravity Well and/or Gravimetric Torp proc. effect...lots of kinetic damage for little to no effort...like watching a soccer ball getting punted around!
1. Lots of people, especially if you PUG things, hate how TBR pushes targets away. I generally like Science, but it's annoying when I'm shooting something up, in good position and good range, enemy shields are down, then ZAP! Someone's TBR pushes my target away to something like 10km away. You need to know the proper situation to use TBR.
-- On the flip side to this, in the middle portion of KASE, when the bunch of probes and spheres start coming out of a Borg Gate (the phase before Donatra appears), someone was in position to catch them and TBR them back towards the Gate. Fortunately, I saw this and I used GW3 on the Gate and it took the entire bunch of probes and spheres that were TBR'd back to the Gate for easy, focused AOE DPS by everyone.
2. There's a DOFF that reverses the "Push" of TBR to a "Pull" but it costs effectiveness.
3. Gravton Generator Skill and Aux Power contribute to the Push effect of TBR.
4. Particle Generator Skill contribute to TBR's damage.
The TAC BUFFs are no joke to a FBP build.
Even before LOR, I remember experimenting with my KDF TAC in around LOR's release.
Few people could resist shooting at a Carrier. A properly plaid Carrier is something that cannot be ignored, yet with that same proper play, you have a lot of defensive longevity. So, with a Carrier being so tempting a target, that's what I was looking to take advantage of.
High Aux Power + FBP3
I was in the old school faction, FvK C&H map, specifically between the central capture point and one of closest other capture point in the asteroid belt, lower in "height" / Z coordinate.
I was already running high Aux Power as a Carrier. I had things set up so I can quickly pop PH1, APO1, FBP3, APA in very quick succession when I need it. I was specifically hoping it would be decloakers / high alpha strikers going after me.
FBP is extremely good under these admittedly tight parameters. I recall getting 2 Roms that were both decloaking on me at the same time. They both blew up within 3-4 seconds of initiating their attack.
The catch though with FBP builds in PVP is that savvy players will see what you're doing and avoid you, or trying to time their attacks between cooldowns. You better have your defensive abilities ready. Also, if you are that good with your FBP play, you may get ignored as a target. Which is fine but in some ways defeats the purpose of having such a build. The key then is to come up with a build and style to maximize that. Having the deterrence of FBP but still doing other things to support what the team is doing so that it makes it more difficult to ignore you.
Moot point now!
[SIGPIC]Click here to visit my STO YouTube channel[/SIGPIC]
You Are Doing It All Wrong!
You Are Doing It Right!!!
Its mostly still accurate. Delta Rising released a month after that post, and with the increased gear ratings and level cap swung things very very heavily in favor of tac captains running high-crit builds for a damage-is-everything game design. (More complicated than that, but thats the short version.) That said, a sci ship invested in Particle Generators and Particle Manipulator plus the right skill and gear setup is still extremely powerful, and while the absolute-top-end gear is extremely expensive, an affordable and easy-to-use setup is still quite strong. Its a little trickier to fly than a straight FAW-DPS ship, but someone who knows how to use their science ship as a science ship can be just devastating.
1) Most of them don't allow dual cannons. Unfortunately, broadsiding is a style of play I'm not really fond of, especially when you consider that many science abilities want you to face your target at least somewhat.
2) Sensor analysis. I'm not a fan of slow-building performance ramp-up abilities, and that's exactly what this is.
This post here pretty much sums it all up. No as a pure sci you will never have to put in more effort then a tac, and you will never get to the level of a tac with a FAW ship, but you can most certainly build a science ship that is really good, and FBP is one of the top 5 science powers.
Will use the advice listed above and pay attention to the forums as much as possible.
Thanks for all the replies!