And thats the reason i always thought that cryptic will make a system to upgrade all our ships, instead of making another tier of ships. Of course, they opted for the basic thing, instead of making a complicated system to upgrade all our ships, they just created new ones. As always.
For the love of Spocks ears, can we let the devs roll out the T6 ships and the T5 upgrade system before people start saying they copped out or took the easy way out to most of the rest of nonsence people are saying? All we know so far is there are T6 ships that are supposed to be awesome, and the T5+ ships from lock boxes, the z-store, and fleets will be upgraded to make them similar to the T6 ships. everyone calm down till the devs give some details please!
Personally, I think the ships will be comparable in stats (minus the abilities) if we need to pay some kind of real money to make them T6. So maybe a T6 fleet style module(s). I know it'll be an unpopular thing to say but I would actually prefer Cryptic to take this road so my ship remains good.
I mean, if you want the brand new, Delta Rising T6 style ships you'll need to pay for them anyway so it seems fair enough to charge me £10 or whatnot to boost my current ship to the same level.
If the upgrade is free, I just don't think the stats will be as good. There is no monetary gain for Cryptic to do it.
You dont need to dispute anything. Its a fact. MK X-XII gear and ships below T6 will be obsolete against the new stuff. Thats a fact like a temple. Specially weapons and equipment. Upgraded ships will still be really effective, but soon you will see the game plagued with genuine tier 6 ships. Because it doesnt matter if you upgraded your ship, the logic suggest that tier 6 ships will be just BETTER, that simple. When you have a tier 1 ship, you wanted a tier 2. When you had a tier 2, you wanted a tier 3 ship... you see the pattern here?
No they will NOT be obsolete, just less powerful, maybe. People use language so damn imprecisely. They use one word when it is in fact incorrect to do so and another word would convey the actual situation and intent much better.
Besides, the real difference between Mk X and Mk XII is like what 5-10 points of damage and maybe a modifier? The difference between Mk XII and Mk XIV will be similar most likely. However since we do not know yet, I choose not to spend my time or resources worrying too much about and continue playing the game in the way that makes me happy.
So by your logic, at present, anything under Mk XII is currently obsolete and useless. Good to know. All of those out there using Mk X and XI's, and perfectly happy to do so, will be gratified to know their using obsolete and useless gear,...
My criteria for buying a new ship is simple. Do I like it. Spec's come in second. It needs to be an improvement on what I have AFTER I decide I like it. If they come out with a T6 Defiant, I will probably buy it, otherwise, I probably won't.
Otherwise I will continue to play the game the way I do with the gear I have and will be perfectly happy and I am willing to bet, I will not suddenly find my self dying every 5 seconds to some new uber NPC with a T6 ship or Mk XIV gear.
All the panic over this stuff really is quite amusing.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
No they will NOT be obsolete, just less powerful, maybe. People use language so damn imprecisely. They use one word when it is in fact incorrect to do so and another word would convey the actual situation and intent much better.
Words mean things. Pick up a dictionary. Obsolete means literally useless, not just less than the best.
I see you folks are still at it. Always hilarious when ppl try to educate others, whilst flaunting their own ignorance. :P
'Obsolete' does NOT mean 'useless.' As an Adjective, it means:
1) no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
"an obsolete expression."
2) of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
"an obsolete battleship."
And, as a verb,
1) to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:
"Automation has obsoleted many factory workers."
So, 'obsoleted' is EXACTLY what the T5 ship will be: 'replaced with something newer or better.' As T6 ships make their presence, T5 ships will not, according to the above strawman, be 'useless,' but simply gradually fall into disuse.
People use language so damn imprecisely!
EDIT: I'll gladly break the ethymology down for you, as well:
'ob' = Latin prefex to denote 'action toward;'
'solere' = Latin verb, meaning 'to get accustomed to;'
-esce = Inflective Latin suffix to verbs, denoting the start of a process (as in coalesce, for example).
So, 'to obsolete' means, very literally so, 'to start to cause something to fall into disuse.'
Personally, I think the ships will be comparable in stats (minus the abilities) if we need to pay some kind of real money to make them T6. So maybe a T6 fleet style module(s). I know it'll be an unpopular thing to say but I would actually prefer Cryptic to take this road so my ship remains good.
This.
I doubt that T6 ships will have more consoles or weapon slots. It's more likely that they'll have new abilities, like the Romulan ships do, only without any semblance of a tradeoff. Assuming that T6 ships come with white MK XII gear, and you've got a beastly scimitar, after the release of the T6 stuff, you'll still have a beastly scimitar.
I see you folks are still at it. Always hilarious when ppl try to educate others, whilst flaunting their own ignorance. :P
'Obsolete' does NOT mean 'useless.' As an Adjective, it means:
1) no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
"an obsolete expression."
2) of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
"an obsolete battleship."
And, as a verb,
1) to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:
"Automation has obsoleted many factory workers."
So, 'obsoleted' is EXACTLY what the T5 ship will be: 'replaced with something newer or better.' As T6 ships make their presence, T5 ships will not, according to the above strawman, be 'useless,' but simply gradually fall into disuse.
People use language so damn imprecisely!
EDIT: I'll gladly break the ethymology down for you, as well:
'ob' = Latin prefex to denote 'action toward;'
'solere' = Latin verb, meaning 'to get accustomed to;'
-esce = Inflective Latin suffix to verbs, denoting the start of a process (as in coalesce, for example).
So, 'to obsolete' means, very literally so, 'to start to cause something to fall into disuse.'
/Exeunt windbags.
Don't toot your own horn yet.
While the definition provided is correct, the usage in every panic thread is an incorrect one.
The correct term to use in context of the issue is "Obsolescence"
The term "obsolete" is generally applied to something that is not only outmoded, but no longer viable. Which is not the case here.
While the definition provided is correct, the usage in every panic thread is an incorrect one.
The correct term to use in context of the issue is "Obsolescence"
The term "obsolete" is generally applied to something that is not only outmoded, but no longer viable. Which is not the case here.
And that, as I've argued before, all depends on whether or not the upgrade path will be free; or, if it costs money, how much. If it costs 4 Fleet Modules to upgrade, per ship, then our current ships would be effectively obsoleted (as the upgrading cost would be tantamount to buying a new ship; or close to it).
Our current T5 lockbox ships, upgraded to be 'competitive' (at a reasonable cost; preferably for free) would still be very useful, I think. Like non-Rom ships having no battle-cloak, I reckon: would be fun to have the extra ability, but you can certainly manage without.
Which is why I'm eagerly waiting for the Devs to divulge info on the cost of the upgrade-path, at least.
nine console fleet ships are still useable at endgame without any problems. I used the free Assult cruiser for years without any problem at endgame.
In fact the first time they raised the level cap the new T5 ships they released then weren't any better either they just had some gimmick that wasn't even really necessary.
For some reason people seem to forget that they didn't scale up the difficulty of any of the endgame content when releasing C-store ships, lock box ships, and fleet ships.
Now apparently they are adding stuff that is more difficult thus requiring you to either buy the new T6 ships or use the upgrade system they are hinting at.
Now that is an original perspective and a very valid argument.
The question will be will it be possible to complete the new content with a standard Tier 5 ship? Will ALL content be rebalanced in difficulty towards Tier 6?
And as always the crux of this whole exercise will rely on how the upgrade system and transition is handled.
Am I the only person on here actually fine with a level cap increase and T6 ships?
Furthermore, looks like most people on the forums cannot read.... How many times have they said that the T5 ships will NOT be obsolete? so the ships that people bought are still gonna be fine. I think we are long over do for an increase.
I'm perfectly fine with it conceptually, the actual question will break down to how the upgrade system works out. I actually have the ship I want now, so upgrading to a new ship is less appealing than actually upgrading my current ship.
As for the people disputing whether or not Tier 5 ships through the upgrade will or will not be obsolete, you have to understand that there are a lot of people that have a fractured if not outright severed trust with Cryptic as a result their prior TRIBBLE ups and by that I mean instances of truly bad handling of the business customer relationship. There are plenty of people who make up a sizable bulk of the forum base that simply don't trust Cryptic at all and wouldn't believe them if they said space was dark.
Part of this current problem is poor communication, Cryptic told them what they were going to do without telling anyone how they were gonna do it, which leads to speculation with no refutation. And since people don't have faith in Cryptic's intentions, especially since the Perfect World takeover, there's little room for optimism.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
There are plenty of people who make up a sizable bulk of the forum base that simply don't trust Cryptic at all and wouldn't believe them if they said space was dark.
Didn't you hear?! It's all Fifty Shades of Grey now. :P
Part of this current problem is poor communication, Cryptic told them what they were going to do without telling anyone how they were gonna do it, which leads to speculation with no refutation. And since people don't have faith in Cryptic's intentions, especially since the Perfect World takeover, there's little room for optimism.
Thus I simply said that from the current information availible - "It doesn't bode well".
I didn't rage or scream DOOOOM!!! :rolleyes:
Thus I simply just said that from the current information availible - "It doesn't bode well". I didn't rage, I didn't yell DOOM, I didn't say Cryptic robbed me or claim that we're screwed before hand.
The only thing I did wrong is try to rationally explain something to a person with a superiority complex. I apologize for that.
Nope, but your smug and superior sounding comment, where you made 2 false asumptions on someone you don't know in a single sentence sure sounded like riding the high-horse.
Well, with Apple there's also that matter of, "You can't replace the battery yourself". Batteries only last a year or so before they start to lose cells/fail. That extra 5% is the additional enticement on top of "I have to spend $100 anyway".
I'd assume that they'll also add just enough bright, glittery attractions that amount to nothing other than an inducement to buy the ship, but we'll just have to wait and see.
I haven't read the whole thread, but there's one thing i'd like to know.
So the new ships are going have a special ability or something like that.
What makes me wonder is the word "class".
Are they actually introducing a new class like Escort, Science, Cruiser, Carrier -> Battlestar?
Or is it simply to be taken like "one level higher than the old ships" ?
Sorry if this has been discussed before.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
UGH. This'll teach me to return to the game (in my defense back when ARC was "offering free stuff" it was so damn unstable I could barely hunt the little Qs) and buy myself a brand new Ar'Kif before reading what's going on.
Should be made a little thinner in the hull top-down, and maybe a bit more aggressively swept forward with the wings. By the gods please tell me this is Dhelan sized and not yet-another-ship-that-dwarfs-ships-twice-as-powerful-with-field-of-view-slaying-bulk. The Romulans can definitely use some sci-heavy tactical ambushers that look like they're made to ambush! Beautiful design, in other words.
Will the "upgrade" balancing be in the form of marginally better stats for lobi and fleet ships upgraded to T6 equivalence? I imagine that would be the best way to work it out.
Didn't you hear?! It's all Fifty Shades of Grey now. :P
Exactemundo! (To stick with Latin, LOL).
Hang in there meimeitoo! Fanbois and shills are running amok here recently!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Seems to be a few ship threads goin around - I like this one as it is a tad different - I understand what is goin on from the first few posts.
T6 content? Pfft o well ... its like what WoW RAIDS?
If we devoted FTP players et our DOFFS up to snuff and skills up we should be on PAR to at least get into the content with those even non-retrofitted T5 ships or what lvl 50 ships?
Dear Arc Team,
when you design the T6, please remember that STO-player play ST <- for a reason. Don't put ships in the game which could be generic-alien-ship-of-the-week. Stick to the ST-Universe and listen to the community. There is a reason that Excelsior and Galaxy are so popular.
Just imagine Star Wars: The Old Republic with "light shields" and "light axes" as addition to "light sabers".
You would shoot yourself in the foot if you ignore the players for a long enough time.
If you are having designing problems just let the community do their magic. Make contests such things which would produce marvellous designs for all factions.
For you that would mean; Less work -> more popularity -> more money. Super simple stuff ^^
PS:
just to add please please remove generic weak borg cubes. One ship shouldn't be able to beat one of them. SO more small borg ships (like in Star Trek Armada). And instead stronger, bigger Cubes. At this point that would be one great change but I'd love such a Trek feeling...Cubes like in TNG: The Best of both Worlds or in ST: First contact. Make them fierce
If you are having designing problems just let the community do their magic. Make contests such things which would produce marvellous designs for all factions.
For you that would mean; Less work -> more popularity -> more money. Super simple stuff ^^
The last time they tried that it was a whole fiasco. Players complaining that X ship didn't win, or that Y ship that did win was ugly, etc. Also there were some legal issues since one or a few of the submitted designs weren't submitted by their creator and the creator would have wanted compensation. Stuff like that. :rolleyes:
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
they don't have to be strg+c strg+v ships. so just copied from the community. But they are great hints. in other terms you could use community ships as basics, as templates. I just hope that STO doesn't become a generic scifi-mmorpg.
if i would want just "generic cool ships" I'd play EVE :rolleyes:
I see you folks are still at it. Always hilarious when ppl try to educate others, whilst flaunting their own ignorance. :P
'Obsolete' does NOT mean 'useless.' As an Adjective, it means:
1) no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
"an obsolete expression."
2) of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
"an obsolete battleship."
And, as a verb,
1) to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:
"Automation has obsoleted many factory workers."
So, 'obsoleted' is EXACTLY what the T5 ship will be: 'replaced with something newer or better.' As T6 ships make their presence, T5 ships will not, according to the above strawman, be 'useless,' but simply gradually fall into disuse.
People use language so damn imprecisely!
EDIT: I'll gladly break the ethymology down for you, as well:
'ob' = Latin prefex to denote 'action toward;'
'solere' = Latin verb, meaning 'to get accustomed to;'
-esce = Inflective Latin suffix to verbs, denoting the start of a process (as in coalesce, for example).
So, 'to obsolete' means, very literally so, 'to start to cause something to fall into disuse.'
/Exeunt windbags.
Perhaps, but in the general vernacular (the form of a language that a particular group of speakers use naturally, especially in informal situations) is such that obsolete does indeed mean useless.
T6 ships will be the top tier - yes, but does that really make the lower tier ships useless - NO.
People are still doing eSTF's in T4 ships and mirror universe ships for goodness sake! They do well enough so there's no reason to think a T5 ship will be any worse off in X2.
The end game at the moment is so easy I really don't think a new breed of ship will be required to be competitive unless you are of the tiny % that PVP or are a min-maxer trying to squeeze every decimal point out of the ships.
For the average Joe playing STO the T6 ships will probably be something to nice aspire to owning one day but they certainly won't be required to enjoy the game. I'd like to try the new ships out but i'll probably stick to my Vesta, Avenger and Patrol Escort as I've grown to love them.
Okay sorry if anyone else has posted this and I am repeating.
I want a Sci heavy ship the Sci Sci variant is not a sci coat as my friend thinks it is as a commander tat is not command sci. I looked at the post only thing useful to me is the Fed Sci Ship and the upgrade tokens the new powers I could care less. I do not PVP so the power running on others would help me not hurt me and people complaining the end of PVP the devs prob know the unfair advantage and much like DS2 making the steel ring of defense only effective in PVE do a similar move as to limit the effectiveness of the powers.
I would like to see a Sci heavy rom ship not a Cruiser and the Oh Oh wait a Battle Cruiser wow what we all wanted.
Why are they making ships that look like they could be skins for really popular ships? I'm pretty sure just about all of them could be a skin for a more popular ship. This is really making me worry that they don't have any plans to bring the old collection of ships to tier 6 and beyond. Just think about it for a second, they make ships that look like our favorites, but because the designs are technically original they don't have to send any cash to CBS.
Why are they making ships that look like they could be skins for really popular ships? I'm pretty sure just about all of them could be a skin for a more popular ship. This is really making me worry that they don't have any plans to bring the old collection of ships to tier 6 and beyond. Just think about it for a second, they make ships that look like our favorites, but because the designs are technically original they don't have to send any cash to CBS.
That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works
That's not how this works, that' not how any of this works
I'm aware of the blanket access Cryptic gets to star trek material. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't have to share profits on things that have a complicated license. I think the Vesta is a prime example of Cryptic having to pay extra money to a designer.
I'm aware of the blanket access Cryptic gets to star trek material. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't have to share profits on things that have a complicated license. I think the Vesta is a prime example of Cryptic having to pay extra money to a designer.
they share profits on EVERYTHING.... the only thing special with Vesta was the license, which we don't have the details of.
The upcoming release of Delta Rising will bring many new and exciting things to Star Trek Online. As with most major game changes, there is also frustration from the player base about how some of these changes are being implemented. There has been a lot of misplaced anger on the forums over the costs of upgrading a ship to Tier 5-U, and a focus on cost has blinded players from the more pressing issues surrounding these changes. It is to be expected that since the transition to a free-to-play model that in the absence of monthly subscription revenue there will be an increased focus on in-game transactions, including ship upgrade modules. Like many players, I'm not a huge fan of having to sink continuous streams of money into the game, however, I'm willing to do so if that money is going towards something worthwhile. In the case of upgrading existing ships to Tier 5-U, I don't think a solid argument exists that that money would be going towards a worthwhile alternative to Tier 6 ships.
- PLAYERS AND THEIR SHIPS - MORE THAN JUST AN INVESTMENT
Across a single tier of ships, many of the differences between ships come from either aesthetic presentation or the character of the ship (usually through special weapons or universal consoles that are tied to the ship). This means that much of the time a player is deciding which ship to play based on some kind of attachment to a particular ship, be it part of the story of the ship, the look and feel of the ship, or the bond they have formed with a ship from flying it for upwards of 4 years. For many players, being able to get access to these ships is a very big part of their in-game experience, they have waited for ships from different factions or different parts of the Star Trek canon to be released, and now many of these ships that players waited for and celebrated their release will now be obsolete. PWE claims to not want to devalue the time and money that players have invested into their current Tier 5 ships, and thus proposes these upgrade options as a solution, however, these upgrades don't solve the problem that PWE is trying to fix. The only way to not devalue Tier 5 ships is to prevent them from being obsolete, charging a fee and calling them Tier 5-U does not accomplish that goal. Yes, the upgrade to a Tier 5-U does provide access to some important benefits, namely an additional console slot and scaling ship hit points, but all that does is make them <less> obsolete than if the upgrade option were not available. By no means does it actually put Tier 5 ships on par with Tier 6 ships.
- "BELLS AND WHISTLES" VS. SIGNFICANT CHANGES
In the developer's notes, they say that Tier 5-U ships will be like Tier 6, minus "a few Bells and Whistles." Generally when we speak of Bells and Whistles, we think of things that are not of material value, maybe aesthetic changes, or quirky functions, that don't necessarily affect the ships ability to function. This would include things like additional ship materials, different ship registries and alternative costume options. Instead, PWE refers to include an additional bridge officer ability, a starship trait, a 5th level of ship mastery, and on some ships, the ability to slot specialist bridge officers. These are hardly Bells and Whistles, these are changes that make Tier 5 (and Tier 5-U) ships unable to compete with Tier 6 ships.
- TIER 5-U DOESN'T ADD ENOUGH VALUE TO MATCH WHAT PLAYERS ARE MISSING OUT ON
Even though some of those additions may seem innocuous, they are far from it. One of the most noticeable differences between Tier 5-U ships and Tier 6 ships is the additional bridge officer ability. These abilities come in the form of Lieutenant Commander abilities, which are some of the strongest, most impactful abilities in the game. Some of the strongest offensive and defensive abilities are in the Lt. Commander slot, including the level 3 Sci/Tac/Eng Team abilities, Attack Pattern Omega 1, Gravity Well 1 and so on. Additional access to these abilities can make or break a ships performance, especially when they are used over the duration of a PvE or PvP event, and are certainly enough to push Tier 6 ships to be the only ships that are competitive in PvP environments. These abilities are far more powerful than built in abilities that are tacked on to some ships, like the subsystems targeting abilities on some cruisers and science ships, or even the recently released cruiser commands. But furthermore, now there will be Tier 6 ships available that have the built in abilities in addition to the bonus Lt. Commander ability, which continues to outclass anything that a Tier 5-U ship can offer.
When it comes to starship skills, ship mastery, and specialist bridge officer slots, we only have an initial picture from the development blogs of their impact, but they are certainly far from "Bells and Whistles." The starship traits that have been released so far include damage resistance buffs, bridge officer recharge buffs, and exotic particle damage buffs, all of which stack on an incredibly regular basis. These are not the kinds of immaterial changes that would be referred to as "Bells and Whistles," but rather these starship traits drastically affect strategic choices when deciding on a build, and increase the effectiveness of the ship by a great deal. Additionally, the intel abilities give a hearty edge to the Tier 6 Intel ships, and further push Tier 5-U ships out of the realm of playability during PvP events. Given the damage and damage resistance buffs granted by the intel abilities, there would be no way for a Tier 5-U ship to be competitive against a Tier 6 ship in PvP, and it is all but guaranteed that a Tier 6 ship would significantly outperform a Tier 5-U in any PvE event.
- SOLUTIONS
Tier 5-U ships are not the solution here, all that does is make the disparity between Tier 5 and Tier 6 ships smaller, it certainly does not make Tier 5 ships competitive with Tier 6 ones. Previous solutions in the game have been more expensive, but have allowed players to play with the ships that they are attached to, and that is the release of "retrofit" and fleet versions of lower tiered ships that are legitimate Tier 5 ships. Release Tier 6 retrofits, possibly as advanced retrofit versions, of existing Tier 5 ships is the only answer that allows for older ships to be truly competitive amongst the newest echelons of ships. Yes, it is probably more expensive, but at the same time allows players to continue to play the ships they love, while also creating a new tier of ships. This could be accomplished by releasing new versions in the Zen and Lobi stores of Tier 6 versions of existing ships, and could even be offered at a discount for players that have a current version of the ship, or by offering Tier 6 upgrade modules, similar to way people currently get top-tier versions of T5 Ships via Fleet Ships . This would also prevent the new ships from being heavily devalued as the excitement over new ships is always already high among the player base (as long as they don't feel that these new ships are the only way to be competitive).
- EXPENSIVE DIGITAL PAPERWEIGHTS
When it comes down to it, Tier 5-U ships aren't a compromise, they are still unfortunately going to be unplayable for players who expect to be able to compete with each other. The problem with Tier 5-U ships is that they will be too much of a downgrade from the new Tier 6 ships. Right now ships like the Mirror Universe ships that come out of the lock box system are technically Tier 5, they are certainly not competitive with the ships at the highest level of Tier 5 (like the Lobi store ships, Zen store ships, or even ships from the Summer and Winter Events). Currently players can choose to compromise and use a Mirror Universe ship because they're cheaper, but players should not have to compromise when it comes to the entire fleet of ships released in the past 4 years. Sure, you'll be able to complete a PvE queue or a storyline mission with a Tier 5-U ship, but you'll be doing so at a noticeable handicap to anyone doing the same in a Tier 6 ship. PvP and high level PvE queues (like No-Win Scenario) may be physically accessible with a Tier 5-U ship, but don't expect to win. Right now I don't show up to PvP with a Mirror Universe Patrol Escort (for obvious reasons) and come October, even showing up in a bug ship will be a losing proposition. With the release of Tier 6 ships, everything we've worked on for the past 4 years will be expensive digital paperweights, holding space in our ship inventory for nostalgia purposes only, which doesn't seem like a solid solution for people who have spent a great amount of time and money securing their favorite ships. Releasing Tier 6 retrofits of current Tier 5 ships is truly the only way to ensure that these ships will remain competitive at level 60, hopefully PWE figures that out and offers us better options.
I know I'm not alone in the group of players that really cares about their ship and hopes that a solution is offered to help preserve the ships that we collectively have spent a lot of time obtaining. Thanks for reading, I hope we can continue the conversation about ways to best address this issue given its effect on a great number of players.
Edited to add: - PLAYERS SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO SETTLE
For purposes of clarity, I think it's important to note that not all Tier 5 ships are created equal. Tier 5 is an expansive term used to describe endgame ships, however, within Tier 5 there are two distinct groups. To try to make it easier, we can look at them as regular and advanced. The regular ships include standard Zen store ships like the D'Kyr and Guramba that don't have corresponding fleet versions, as well as the base versions of ships that do have a fleet counterpart, like the Avenger Battle Cruiser and the Caitain Atrox Carrier. These ships tend to have lower hull and shields, and only 9 console slots. The advanced ships include fleet ships that are purchased with Fleet Modules, Lobi Store ships, Event Reputation ships like the Risian Corvette, Lock Box ships, and Zen store 3-pack ships like the Vesta and Andorian escorts. These ships come with extra advantages over the regular ships, including higher shields and hull (in the case of fleet ships, 10% each over their non-fleet counterparts) and a 10th console slot. These same distinctions exist in the Tier 6 ships as well, with fleet versions of the intelligence ships coming some time after the launch of Delta Rising.
When comparing the impact of Tier 5-U ships, it makes more sense to compare similar ships, meaning that comparing the Tier 6 ships that are available at launch against Tier 5-U versions of the "advanced" ships is not an accurate comparison. Rather we should compare the "regular" Tier 5-U ships against the "regular" Tier 6 ships, and the same for the "advanced."
When we compare the ships this way, the disparity becomes much more pronounced. A Tier 5-U D'kyr for instance, will have a lower hull than any Tier 6 ship (they will both scale, but at level 60, the D'kyr will lag greatly), and will only have 10 console slots. All Tier 6 ships will have access to an extra Lt. Commander bridge officer ability, a starship trait, and a higher hull. If we compare a Tier 5-U advanced ship, like the Vesta against a Tier 6 advanced ship, like the Fleet Scryer, there is no real comparison. They will both have 11 console slots, but the Vesta is going to scale its HP to top out on hull HP around 35,000 against the Scryer's 40,000. The Scryer, like all Tier 6 ships, will also have two Lt. Commander slots, intelligence bridge officer abilities, and a starship trait.
While players may have adapted to changes in the past, PWE has also been moderately good at keeping players from having to settle when it comes to their ships. When Tier 5 was released, retrofits gave players an option to have Tier 5 versions of their previous ships, the later release of fleet ships allowed older ships to have increased hull and shields and a full complement of 10 console slots, making them equal to other advanced ships. That just doesn't seem to be the case here. Players shouldn't have to settle, adjust, or adapt when it comes to their ship choices, especially since in the past, PWE has shown that there are ways to keep players in the ships that they have become attached to. Tier 5-U ships may give an advantage (if you believe that an extra console slot outweighs all the other benefits available at Tier 6) to players playing an advanced Tier 5-U ship for the first couple weeks, but after Tier 6 fleet ships, and other Tier 6 advanced ships, become available, that advantage is completely erased, and Tier 5-U ships become greatly outclassed.
The upcoming release of Delta Rising will bring many new and exciting things to Star Trek Online. As with most major game changes, there is also frustration from the player base about how some of these changes are being implemented. There has been a lot of misplaced anger on the forums over the costs of upgrading a ship to Tier 5-U, and a focus on cost has blinded players from the more pressing issues surrounding these changes. It is to be expected that since the transition to a free-to-play model that in the absence of monthly subscription revenue there will be an increased focus on in-game transactions, including ship upgrade modules. Like many players, I'm not a huge fan of having to sink continuous streams of money into the game, however, I'm willing to do so if that money is going towards something worthwhile. In the case of upgrading existing ships to Tier 5-U, I don't think a solid argument exists that that money would be going towards a worthwhile alternative to Tier 6 ships.
- PLAYERS AND THEIR SHIPS - MORE THAN JUST AN INVESTMENT
Across a single tier of ships, many of the differences between ships come from either aesthetic presentation or the character of the ship (usually through special weapons or universal consoles that are tied to the ship). This means that much of the time a player is deciding which ship to play based on some kind of attachment to a particular ship, be it part of the story of the ship, the look and feel of the ship, or the bond they have formed with a ship from flying it for upwards of 4 years. For many players, being able to get access to these ships is a very big part of their in-game experience, they have waited for ships from different factions or different parts of the Star Trek canon to be released, and now many of these ships that players waited for and celebrated their release will now be obsolete. PWE claims to not want to devalue the time and money that players have invested into their current Tier 5 ships, and thus proposes these upgrade options as a solution, however, these upgrades don't solve the problem that PWE is trying to fix. The only way to not devalue Tier 5 ships is to prevent them from being obsolete, charging a fee and calling them Tier 5-U does not accomplish that goal. Yes, the upgrade to a Tier 5-U does provide access to some important benefits, namely an additional console slot and scaling ship hit points, but all that does is make them <less> obsolete than if the upgrade option were not available. By no means does it actually put Tier 5 ships on par with Tier 6 ships.
- "BELLS AND WHISTLES" VS. SIGNFICANT CHANGES
In the developer's notes, they say that Tier 5-U ships will be like Tier 6, minus "a few Bells and Whistles." Generally when we speak of Bells and Whistles, we think of things that are not of material value, maybe aesthetic changes, or quirky functions, that don't necessarily affect the ships ability to function. This would include things like additional ship materials, different ship registries and alternative costume options. Instead, PWE refers to include an additional bridge officer ability, a starship trait, a 5th level of ship mastery, and on some ships, the ability to slot specialist bridge officers. These are hardly Bells and Whistles, these are changes that make Tier 5 (and Tier 5-U) ships unable to compete with Tier 6 ships.
- TIER 5-U DOESN'T ADD ENOUGH VALUE TO MATCH WHAT PLAYERS ARE MISSING OUT ON
Even though some of those additions may seem innocuous, they are far from it. One of the most noticeable differences between Tier 5-U ships and Tier 6 ships is the additional bridge officer ability. These abilities come in the form of Lieutenant Commander abilities, which are some of the strongest, most impactful abilities in the game. Some of the strongest offensive and defensive abilities are in the Lt. Commander slot, including the level 3 Sci/Tac/Eng Team abilities, Attack Pattern Omega 1, Gravity Well 1 and so on. Additional access to these abilities can make or break a ships performance, especially when they are used over the duration of a PvE or PvP event, and are certainly enough to push Tier 6 ships to be the only ships that are competitive in PvP environments. These abilities are far more powerful than built in abilities that are tacked on to some ships, like the subsystems targeting abilities on some cruisers and science ships, or even the recently released cruiser commands. But furthermore, now there will be Tier 6 ships available that have the built in abilities in addition to the bonus Lt. Commander ability, which continues to outclass anything that a Tier 5-U ship can offer.
When it comes to starship skills, ship mastery, and specialist bridge officer slots, we only have an initial picture from the development blogs of their impact, but they are certainly far from "Bells and Whistles." The starship traits that have been released so far include damage resistance buffs, bridge officer recharge buffs, and exotic particle damage buffs, all of which stack on an incredibly regular basis. These are not the kinds of immaterial changes that would be referred to as "Bells and Whistles," but rather these starship traits drastically affect strategic choices when deciding on a build, and increase the effectiveness of the ship by a great deal. Additionally, the intel abilities give a hearty edge to the Tier 6 Intel ships, and further push Tier 5-U ships out of the realm of playability during PvP events. Given the damage and damage resistance buffs granted by the intel abilities, there would be no way for a Tier 5-U ship to be competitive against a Tier 6 ship in PvP, and it is all but guaranteed that a Tier 6 ship would significantly outperform a Tier 5-U in any PvE event.
- SOLUTIONS
Tier 5-U ships are not the solution here, all that does is make the disparity between Tier 5 and Tier 6 ships smaller, it certainly does not make Tier 5 ships competitive with Tier 6 ones. Previous solutions in the game have been more expensive, but have allowed players to play with the ships that they are attached to, and that is the release of "retrofit" and fleet versions of lower tiered ships that are legitimate Tier 5 ships. Release Tier 6 retrofits, possibly as advanced retrofit versions, of existing Tier 5 ships is the only answer that allows for older ships to be truly competitive amongst the newest echelons of ships. Yes, it is probably more expensive, but at the same time allows players to continue to play the ships they love, while also creating a new tier of ships. This could be accomplished by releasing new versions in the Zen and Lobi stores of Tier 6 versions of existing ships, and could even be offered at a discount for players that have a current version of the ship, or by offering Tier 6 upgrade modules, similar to way people currently get top-tier versions of T5 Ships via Fleet Ships . This would also prevent the new ships from being heavily devalued as the excitement over new ships is always already high among the player base (as long as they don't feel that these new ships are the only way to be competitive).
- EXPENSIVE DIGITAL PAPERWEIGHTS
When it comes down to it, Tier 5-U ships aren't a compromise, they are still unfortunately going to be unplayable for players who expect to be able to compete with each other. The problem with Tier 5-U ships is that they will be too much of a downgrade from the new Tier 6 ships. Right now ships like the Mirror Universe ships that come out of the lock box system are technically Tier 5, they are certainly not competitive with the ships at the highest level of Tier 5 (like the Lobi store ships, Zen store ships, or even ships from the Summer and Winter Events). Currently players can choose to compromise and use a Mirror Universe ship because they're cheaper, but players should not have to compromise when it comes to the entire fleet of ships released in the past 4 years. Sure, you'll be able to complete a PvE queue or a storyline mission with a Tier 5-U ship, but you'll be doing so at a noticeable handicap to anyone doing the same in a Tier 6 ship. PvP and high level PvE queues (like No-Win Scenario) may be physically accessible with a Tier 5-U ship, but don't expect to win. Right now I don't show up to PvP with a Mirror Universe Patrol Escort (for obvious reasons) and come October, even showing up in a bug ship will be a losing proposition. With the release of Tier 6 ships, everything we've worked on for the past 4 years will be expensive digital paperweights, holding space in our ship inventory for nostalgia purposes only, which doesn't seem like a solid solution for people who have spent a great amount of time and money securing their favorite ships. Releasing Tier 6 retrofits of current Tier 5 ships is truly the only way to ensure that these ships will remain competitive at level 60, hopefully PWE figures that out and offers us better options.
I know I'm not alone in the group of players that really cares about their ship and hopes that a solution is offered to help preserve the ships that we collectively have spent a lot of time obtaining. Thanks for reading, I hope we can continue the conversation about ways to best address this issue given its effect on a great number of players.
Edited to add: - PLAYERS SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO SETTLE
For purposes of clarity, I think it's important to note that not all Tier 5 ships are created equal. Tier 5 is an expansive term used to describe endgame ships, however, within Tier 5 there are two distinct groups. To try to make it easier, we can look at them as regular and advanced. The regular ships include standard Zen store ships like the D'Kyr and Guramba that don't have corresponding fleet versions, as well as the base versions of ships that do have a fleet counterpart, like the Avenger Battle Cruiser and the Caitain Atrox Carrier. These ships tend to have lower hull and shields, and only 9 console slots. The advanced ships include fleet ships that are purchased with Fleet Modules, Lobi Store ships, Event Reputation ships like the Risian Corvette, Lock Box ships, and Zen store 3-pack ships like the Vesta and Andorian escorts. These ships come with extra advantages over the regular ships, including higher shields and hull (in the case of fleet ships, 10% each over their non-fleet counterparts) and a 10th console slot. These same distinctions exist in the Tier 6 ships as well, with fleet versions of the intelligence ships coming some time after the launch of Delta Rising.
When comparing the impact of Tier 5-U ships, it makes more sense to compare similar ships, meaning that comparing the Tier 6 ships that are available at launch against Tier 5-U versions of the "advanced" ships is not an accurate comparison. Rather we should compare the "regular" Tier 5-U ships against the "regular" Tier 6 ships, and the same for the "advanced."
When we compare the ships this way, the disparity becomes much more pronounced. A Tier 5-U D'kyr for instance, will have a lower hull than any Tier 6 ship (they will both scale, but at level 60, the D'kyr will lag greatly), and will only have 10 console slots. All Tier 6 ships will have access to an extra Lt. Commander bridge officer ability, a starship trait, and a higher hull. If we compare a Tier 5-U advanced ship, like the Vesta against a Tier 6 advanced ship, like the Fleet Scryer, there is no real comparison. They will both have 11 console slots, but the Vesta is going to scale its HP to top out on hull HP around 35,000 against the Scryer's 40,000. The Scryer, like all Tier 6 ships, will also have two Lt. Commander slots, intelligence bridge officer abilities, and a starship trait.
While players may have adapted to changes in the past, PWE has also been moderately good at keeping players from having to settle when it comes to their ships. When Tier 5 was released, retrofits gave players an option to have Tier 5 versions of their previous ships, the later release of fleet ships allowed older ships to have increased hull and shields and a full complement of 10 console slots, making them equal to other advanced ships. That just doesn't seem to be the case here. Players shouldn't have to settle, adjust, or adapt when it comes to their ship choices, especially since in the past, PWE has shown that there are ways to keep players in the ships that they have become attached to. Tier 5-U ships may give an advantage (if you believe that an extra console slot outweighs all the other benefits available at Tier 6) to players playing an advanced Tier 5-U ship for the first couple weeks, but after Tier 6 fleet ships, and other Tier 6 advanced ships, become available, that advantage is completely erased, and Tier 5-U ships become greatly outclassed.
Comments
I mean, if you want the brand new, Delta Rising T6 style ships you'll need to pay for them anyway so it seems fair enough to charge me £10 or whatnot to boost my current ship to the same level.
If the upgrade is free, I just don't think the stats will be as good. There is no monetary gain for Cryptic to do it.
No they will NOT be obsolete, just less powerful, maybe. People use language so damn imprecisely. They use one word when it is in fact incorrect to do so and another word would convey the actual situation and intent much better.
Besides, the real difference between Mk X and Mk XII is like what 5-10 points of damage and maybe a modifier? The difference between Mk XII and Mk XIV will be similar most likely. However since we do not know yet, I choose not to spend my time or resources worrying too much about and continue playing the game in the way that makes me happy.
So by your logic, at present, anything under Mk XII is currently obsolete and useless. Good to know. All of those out there using Mk X and XI's, and perfectly happy to do so, will be gratified to know their using obsolete and useless gear,...
My criteria for buying a new ship is simple. Do I like it. Spec's come in second. It needs to be an improvement on what I have AFTER I decide I like it. If they come out with a T6 Defiant, I will probably buy it, otherwise, I probably won't.
Otherwise I will continue to play the game the way I do with the gear I have and will be perfectly happy and I am willing to bet, I will not suddenly find my self dying every 5 seconds to some new uber NPC with a T6 ship or Mk XIV gear.
All the panic over this stuff really is quite amusing.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
I see you folks are still at it. Always hilarious when ppl try to educate others, whilst flaunting their own ignorance. :P
'Obsolete' does NOT mean 'useless.' As an Adjective, it means:
1) no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
"an obsolete expression."
2) of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
"an obsolete battleship."
And, as a verb,
1) to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:
"Automation has obsoleted many factory workers."
So, 'obsoleted' is EXACTLY what the T5 ship will be: 'replaced with something newer or better.' As T6 ships make their presence, T5 ships will not, according to the above strawman, be 'useless,' but simply gradually fall into disuse.
People use language so damn imprecisely!
EDIT: I'll gladly break the ethymology down for you, as well:
'ob' = Latin prefex to denote 'action toward;'
'solere' = Latin verb, meaning 'to get accustomed to;'
-esce = Inflective Latin suffix to verbs, denoting the start of a process (as in coalesce, for example).
So, 'to obsolete' means, very literally so, 'to start to cause something to fall into disuse.'
/Exeunt windbags.
This.
I doubt that T6 ships will have more consoles or weapon slots. It's more likely that they'll have new abilities, like the Romulan ships do, only without any semblance of a tradeoff. Assuming that T6 ships come with white MK XII gear, and you've got a beastly scimitar, after the release of the T6 stuff, you'll still have a beastly scimitar.
Don't toot your own horn yet.
While the definition provided is correct, the usage in every panic thread is an incorrect one.
The correct term to use in context of the issue is "Obsolescence"
The term "obsolete" is generally applied to something that is not only outmoded, but no longer viable. Which is not the case here.
And that, as I've argued before, all depends on whether or not the upgrade path will be free; or, if it costs money, how much. If it costs 4 Fleet Modules to upgrade, per ship, then our current ships would be effectively obsoleted (as the upgrading cost would be tantamount to buying a new ship; or close to it).
Our current T5 lockbox ships, upgraded to be 'competitive' (at a reasonable cost; preferably for free) would still be very useful, I think. Like non-Rom ships having no battle-cloak, I reckon: would be fun to have the extra ability, but you can certainly manage without.
Which is why I'm eagerly waiting for the Devs to divulge info on the cost of the upgrade-path, at least.
Agreed. Now that is an original perspective and a very valid argument.
The question will be will it be possible to complete the new content with a standard Tier 5 ship? Will ALL content be rebalanced in difficulty towards Tier 6?
And as always the crux of this whole exercise will rely on how the upgrade system and transition is handled.
I'm perfectly fine with it conceptually, the actual question will break down to how the upgrade system works out. I actually have the ship I want now, so upgrading to a new ship is less appealing than actually upgrading my current ship.
As for the people disputing whether or not Tier 5 ships through the upgrade will or will not be obsolete, you have to understand that there are a lot of people that have a fractured if not outright severed trust with Cryptic as a result their prior TRIBBLE ups and by that I mean instances of truly bad handling of the business customer relationship. There are plenty of people who make up a sizable bulk of the forum base that simply don't trust Cryptic at all and wouldn't believe them if they said space was dark.
Part of this current problem is poor communication, Cryptic told them what they were going to do without telling anyone how they were gonna do it, which leads to speculation with no refutation. And since people don't have faith in Cryptic's intentions, especially since the Perfect World takeover, there's little room for optimism.
Didn't you hear?! It's all Fifty Shades of Grey now. :P
Exactemundo! (To stick with Latin, LOL).
I call hoax.
Everyone knows that they'd never give the carrier a science console!
Well, with Apple there's also that matter of, "You can't replace the battery yourself". Batteries only last a year or so before they start to lose cells/fail. That extra 5% is the additional enticement on top of "I have to spend $100 anyway".
I'd assume that they'll also add just enough bright, glittery attractions that amount to nothing other than an inducement to buy the ship, but we'll just have to wait and see.
So the new ships are going have a special ability or something like that.
What makes me wonder is the word "class".
Are they actually introducing a new class like Escort, Science, Cruiser, Carrier -> Battlestar?
Or is it simply to be taken like "one level higher than the old ships" ?
Sorry if this has been discussed before.
First I'll say that the ship shown here
http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/arc/b4/01/b4011715796faa1673b9f8c3e707ab221408740554.gif
Should be made a little thinner in the hull top-down, and maybe a bit more aggressively swept forward with the wings. By the gods please tell me this is Dhelan sized and not yet-another-ship-that-dwarfs-ships-twice-as-powerful-with-field-of-view-slaying-bulk. The Romulans can definitely use some sci-heavy tactical ambushers that look like they're made to ambush! Beautiful design, in other words.
Will the "upgrade" balancing be in the form of marginally better stats for lobi and fleet ships upgraded to T6 equivalence? I imagine that would be the best way to work it out.
Hang in there meimeitoo! Fanbois and shills are running amok here recently!
- Judge Aaron Satie
Seems to be a few ship threads goin around - I like this one as it is a tad different - I understand what is goin on from the first few posts.
T6 content? Pfft o well ... its like what WoW RAIDS?
If we devoted FTP players et our DOFFS up to snuff and skills up we should be on PAR to at least get into the content with those even non-retrofitted T5 ships or what lvl 50 ships?
Hawkeyez
when you design the T6, please remember that STO-player play ST <- for a reason. Don't put ships in the game which could be generic-alien-ship-of-the-week. Stick to the ST-Universe and listen to the community. There is a reason that Excelsior and Galaxy are so popular.
Just imagine Star Wars: The Old Republic with "light shields" and "light axes" as addition to "light sabers".
You would shoot yourself in the foot if you ignore the players for a long enough time.
If you are having designing problems just let the community do their magic. Make contests such things which would produce marvellous designs for all factions.
For you that would mean; Less work -> more popularity -> more money. Super simple stuff ^^
Reason i wrote is this t6-fed-ship; http://i.imgur.com/ZWSfUbP.png <-- where is that ship federation?
Just read that article for example: http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/2enivh/tier_6_ships_star_trek_online/
PS:
just to add please please remove generic weak borg cubes. One ship shouldn't be able to beat one of them. SO more small borg ships (like in Star Trek Armada). And instead stronger, bigger Cubes. At this point that would be one great change but I'd love such a Trek feeling...Cubes like in TNG: The Best of both Worlds or in ST: First contact. Make them fierce
The last time they tried that it was a whole fiasco. Players complaining that X ship didn't win, or that Y ship that did win was ugly, etc. Also there were some legal issues since one or a few of the submitted designs weren't submitted by their creator and the creator would have wanted compensation. Stuff like that. :rolleyes:
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
if i would want just "generic cool ships" I'd play EVE :rolleyes:
Perhaps, but in the general vernacular (the form of a language that a particular group of speakers use naturally, especially in informal situations) is such that obsolete does indeed mean useless.
People are still doing eSTF's in T4 ships and mirror universe ships for goodness sake! They do well enough so there's no reason to think a T5 ship will be any worse off in X2.
The end game at the moment is so easy I really don't think a new breed of ship will be required to be competitive unless you are of the tiny % that PVP or are a min-maxer trying to squeeze every decimal point out of the ships.
For the average Joe playing STO the T6 ships will probably be something to nice aspire to owning one day but they certainly won't be required to enjoy the game. I'd like to try the new ships out but i'll probably stick to my Vesta, Avenger and Patrol Escort as I've grown to love them.
I want a Sci heavy ship the Sci Sci variant is not a sci coat as my friend thinks it is as a commander tat is not command sci. I looked at the post only thing useful to me is the Fed Sci Ship and the upgrade tokens the new powers I could care less. I do not PVP so the power running on others would help me not hurt me and people complaining the end of PVP the devs prob know the unfair advantage and much like DS2 making the steel ring of defense only effective in PVE do a similar move as to limit the effectiveness of the powers.
I would like to see a Sci heavy rom ship not a Cruiser and the Oh Oh wait a Battle Cruiser wow what we all wanted.
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Twitter:
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That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works
I'm aware of the blanket access Cryptic gets to star trek material. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't have to share profits on things that have a complicated license. I think the Vesta is a prime example of Cryptic having to pay extra money to a designer.
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My character Tsin'xing
- PLAYERS AND THEIR SHIPS - MORE THAN JUST AN INVESTMENT
Across a single tier of ships, many of the differences between ships come from either aesthetic presentation or the character of the ship (usually through special weapons or universal consoles that are tied to the ship). This means that much of the time a player is deciding which ship to play based on some kind of attachment to a particular ship, be it part of the story of the ship, the look and feel of the ship, or the bond they have formed with a ship from flying it for upwards of 4 years. For many players, being able to get access to these ships is a very big part of their in-game experience, they have waited for ships from different factions or different parts of the Star Trek canon to be released, and now many of these ships that players waited for and celebrated their release will now be obsolete. PWE claims to not want to devalue the time and money that players have invested into their current Tier 5 ships, and thus proposes these upgrade options as a solution, however, these upgrades don't solve the problem that PWE is trying to fix. The only way to not devalue Tier 5 ships is to prevent them from being obsolete, charging a fee and calling them Tier 5-U does not accomplish that goal. Yes, the upgrade to a Tier 5-U does provide access to some important benefits, namely an additional console slot and scaling ship hit points, but all that does is make them <less> obsolete than if the upgrade option were not available. By no means does it actually put Tier 5 ships on par with Tier 6 ships.
- "BELLS AND WHISTLES" VS. SIGNFICANT CHANGES
In the developer's notes, they say that Tier 5-U ships will be like Tier 6, minus "a few Bells and Whistles." Generally when we speak of Bells and Whistles, we think of things that are not of material value, maybe aesthetic changes, or quirky functions, that don't necessarily affect the ships ability to function. This would include things like additional ship materials, different ship registries and alternative costume options. Instead, PWE refers to include an additional bridge officer ability, a starship trait, a 5th level of ship mastery, and on some ships, the ability to slot specialist bridge officers. These are hardly Bells and Whistles, these are changes that make Tier 5 (and Tier 5-U) ships unable to compete with Tier 6 ships.
- TIER 5-U DOESN'T ADD ENOUGH VALUE TO MATCH WHAT PLAYERS ARE MISSING OUT ON
Even though some of those additions may seem innocuous, they are far from it. One of the most noticeable differences between Tier 5-U ships and Tier 6 ships is the additional bridge officer ability. These abilities come in the form of Lieutenant Commander abilities, which are some of the strongest, most impactful abilities in the game. Some of the strongest offensive and defensive abilities are in the Lt. Commander slot, including the level 3 Sci/Tac/Eng Team abilities, Attack Pattern Omega 1, Gravity Well 1 and so on. Additional access to these abilities can make or break a ships performance, especially when they are used over the duration of a PvE or PvP event, and are certainly enough to push Tier 6 ships to be the only ships that are competitive in PvP environments. These abilities are far more powerful than built in abilities that are tacked on to some ships, like the subsystems targeting abilities on some cruisers and science ships, or even the recently released cruiser commands. But furthermore, now there will be Tier 6 ships available that have the built in abilities in addition to the bonus Lt. Commander ability, which continues to outclass anything that a Tier 5-U ship can offer.
When it comes to starship skills, ship mastery, and specialist bridge officer slots, we only have an initial picture from the development blogs of their impact, but they are certainly far from "Bells and Whistles." The starship traits that have been released so far include damage resistance buffs, bridge officer recharge buffs, and exotic particle damage buffs, all of which stack on an incredibly regular basis. These are not the kinds of immaterial changes that would be referred to as "Bells and Whistles," but rather these starship traits drastically affect strategic choices when deciding on a build, and increase the effectiveness of the ship by a great deal. Additionally, the intel abilities give a hearty edge to the Tier 6 Intel ships, and further push Tier 5-U ships out of the realm of playability during PvP events. Given the damage and damage resistance buffs granted by the intel abilities, there would be no way for a Tier 5-U ship to be competitive against a Tier 6 ship in PvP, and it is all but guaranteed that a Tier 6 ship would significantly outperform a Tier 5-U in any PvE event.
- SOLUTIONS
Tier 5-U ships are not the solution here, all that does is make the disparity between Tier 5 and Tier 6 ships smaller, it certainly does not make Tier 5 ships competitive with Tier 6 ones. Previous solutions in the game have been more expensive, but have allowed players to play with the ships that they are attached to, and that is the release of "retrofit" and fleet versions of lower tiered ships that are legitimate Tier 5 ships. Release Tier 6 retrofits, possibly as advanced retrofit versions, of existing Tier 5 ships is the only answer that allows for older ships to be truly competitive amongst the newest echelons of ships. Yes, it is probably more expensive, but at the same time allows players to continue to play the ships they love, while also creating a new tier of ships. This could be accomplished by releasing new versions in the Zen and Lobi stores of Tier 6 versions of existing ships, and could even be offered at a discount for players that have a current version of the ship, or by offering Tier 6 upgrade modules, similar to way people currently get top-tier versions of T5 Ships via Fleet Ships . This would also prevent the new ships from being heavily devalued as the excitement over new ships is always already high among the player base (as long as they don't feel that these new ships are the only way to be competitive).
- EXPENSIVE DIGITAL PAPERWEIGHTS
When it comes down to it, Tier 5-U ships aren't a compromise, they are still unfortunately going to be unplayable for players who expect to be able to compete with each other. The problem with Tier 5-U ships is that they will be too much of a downgrade from the new Tier 6 ships. Right now ships like the Mirror Universe ships that come out of the lock box system are technically Tier 5, they are certainly not competitive with the ships at the highest level of Tier 5 (like the Lobi store ships, Zen store ships, or even ships from the Summer and Winter Events). Currently players can choose to compromise and use a Mirror Universe ship because they're cheaper, but players should not have to compromise when it comes to the entire fleet of ships released in the past 4 years. Sure, you'll be able to complete a PvE queue or a storyline mission with a Tier 5-U ship, but you'll be doing so at a noticeable handicap to anyone doing the same in a Tier 6 ship. PvP and high level PvE queues (like No-Win Scenario) may be physically accessible with a Tier 5-U ship, but don't expect to win. Right now I don't show up to PvP with a Mirror Universe Patrol Escort (for obvious reasons) and come October, even showing up in a bug ship will be a losing proposition. With the release of Tier 6 ships, everything we've worked on for the past 4 years will be expensive digital paperweights, holding space in our ship inventory for nostalgia purposes only, which doesn't seem like a solid solution for people who have spent a great amount of time and money securing their favorite ships. Releasing Tier 6 retrofits of current Tier 5 ships is truly the only way to ensure that these ships will remain competitive at level 60, hopefully PWE figures that out and offers us better options.
I know I'm not alone in the group of players that really cares about their ship and hopes that a solution is offered to help preserve the ships that we collectively have spent a lot of time obtaining. Thanks for reading, I hope we can continue the conversation about ways to best address this issue given its effect on a great number of players.
Edited to add:
- PLAYERS SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO SETTLE
For purposes of clarity, I think it's important to note that not all Tier 5 ships are created equal. Tier 5 is an expansive term used to describe endgame ships, however, within Tier 5 there are two distinct groups. To try to make it easier, we can look at them as regular and advanced. The regular ships include standard Zen store ships like the D'Kyr and Guramba that don't have corresponding fleet versions, as well as the base versions of ships that do have a fleet counterpart, like the Avenger Battle Cruiser and the Caitain Atrox Carrier. These ships tend to have lower hull and shields, and only 9 console slots. The advanced ships include fleet ships that are purchased with Fleet Modules, Lobi Store ships, Event Reputation ships like the Risian Corvette, Lock Box ships, and Zen store 3-pack ships like the Vesta and Andorian escorts. These ships come with extra advantages over the regular ships, including higher shields and hull (in the case of fleet ships, 10% each over their non-fleet counterparts) and a 10th console slot. These same distinctions exist in the Tier 6 ships as well, with fleet versions of the intelligence ships coming some time after the launch of Delta Rising.
When comparing the impact of Tier 5-U ships, it makes more sense to compare similar ships, meaning that comparing the Tier 6 ships that are available at launch against Tier 5-U versions of the "advanced" ships is not an accurate comparison. Rather we should compare the "regular" Tier 5-U ships against the "regular" Tier 6 ships, and the same for the "advanced."
When we compare the ships this way, the disparity becomes much more pronounced. A Tier 5-U D'kyr for instance, will have a lower hull than any Tier 6 ship (they will both scale, but at level 60, the D'kyr will lag greatly), and will only have 10 console slots. All Tier 6 ships will have access to an extra Lt. Commander bridge officer ability, a starship trait, and a higher hull. If we compare a Tier 5-U advanced ship, like the Vesta against a Tier 6 advanced ship, like the Fleet Scryer, there is no real comparison. They will both have 11 console slots, but the Vesta is going to scale its HP to top out on hull HP around 35,000 against the Scryer's 40,000. The Scryer, like all Tier 6 ships, will also have two Lt. Commander slots, intelligence bridge officer abilities, and a starship trait.
While players may have adapted to changes in the past, PWE has also been moderately good at keeping players from having to settle when it comes to their ships. When Tier 5 was released, retrofits gave players an option to have Tier 5 versions of their previous ships, the later release of fleet ships allowed older ships to have increased hull and shields and a full complement of 10 console slots, making them equal to other advanced ships. That just doesn't seem to be the case here. Players shouldn't have to settle, adjust, or adapt when it comes to their ship choices, especially since in the past, PWE has shown that there are ways to keep players in the ships that they have become attached to. Tier 5-U ships may give an advantage (if you believe that an extra console slot outweighs all the other benefits available at Tier 6) to players playing an advanced Tier 5-U ship for the first couple weeks, but after Tier 6 fleet ships, and other Tier 6 advanced ships, become available, that advantage is completely erased, and Tier 5-U ships become greatly outclassed.
and that's /thread