Lol, well technically no single player, should even be able to pull of a 40k+ BO crit, considering the highest hull achievable is only in the 60k range, an overload crit like that to you bare hull, spells a loss of 80-100% of your hull in one shot, now imagine what the other weapons are doing on top of that!
A BO3 crit couldn't hit as hard as a HY3 crit before, and now it's doing 75% of the damage it was before...
As for the highest hull achievable being in the 60k range, that's not taking into account effective hull. The 60k hull guy with 25% DR...has 80k hull. With 33% DR...has 90k hull. With 50% DR...120k hull. With 67% DR...182k hull.
For those big crits that folks are talking about - you're looking at SNBs, Sensor Scans, Disruptor Breaches, APBs, APDs, etc, etc, etc - all the various debuffs that stack up to create all sorts of awesome damage.
Say somebody has a single Rare Mk XI Neut giving them +17.5 DRR. They've got no other DRR sources, so they've got 14.9% DR. They're only going to be taking 85.1% damage.
The 40k BO would hit for 34040 damage.
A 60k BO would hit for 51060 damage.
Say your friendly Willard the Rat is flying by and drops out a Sensor Scan 3, which provides a -67.6 DRR debuff on the target. The target's DR is going to be -32.2% now. They're going to be taking 132.2% damage.
The 40k BO would hit for 52880 damage.
A 60k BO would hit for 79320 damage.
With debuffs able to stack into the 200%+ damage range...
I'm not so upset about the change as some are.
But my question is, if they change FAW to do way less damage than now, at what area would a Cruiser be at advantage compared to a Escort?
I mean it's not like Cruisers would have been more effective as Escorts before. But if they nerf FAW then whats left for (starfleet) cruisers?
After they nerf FAW: Starfleet Cruisers: spike damage power, one spam clearing power almost no one is going to use anymore afaik. Escorts: TWO Spike damage power (Beam Overload, Rapid fire) and one effective AOE attack that does noticeable increased damage.
Plus if time tells that some ships could use a area spam clear power, there's no reason for a escort not to use FAW.
I'd say that's pretty unbalanced.
Sure someone could argue that Cruisers are suppsosed to tank, but: One, there's nothing a escort couldn't tank just as well and Two, crusiers aren't supposed to be flying bricks in the first place (if you want STO at least a BIT like "real" trek).
So in my opinion, the new changes are basicly Starfleet Cruiser only nerfs, unless the devs are going to change rapid fire and scatter volley too. (maybe like making them apply to Beam weapons too or something.)
Another idea would be make all starfleet ships able to use DHCs or give them a equal weapon, so they can use Scatter volley and Rapid Fire too.
(i'm not greedy about the increased damage, i'm only talking about cryptc limiting Starfleet ships tactical options. Which is simply unfair IMO)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
A BO3 crit couldn't hit as hard as a HY3 crit before, and now it's doing 75% of the damage it was before...
As for the highest hull achievable being in the 60k range, that's not taking into account effective hull. The 60k hull guy with 25% DR...has 80k hull. With 33% DR...has 90k hull. With 50% DR...120k hull. With 67% DR...182k hull.
For those big crits that folks are talking about - you're looking at SNBs, Sensor Scans, Disruptor Breaches, APBs, APDs, etc, etc, etc - all the various debuffs that stack up to create all sorts of awesome damage.
Say somebody has a single Rare Mk XI Neut giving them +17.5 DRR. They've got no other DRR sources, so they've got 14.9% DR. They're only going to be taking 85.1% damage.
The 40k BO would hit for 34040 damage.
A 60k BO would hit for 51060 damage.
Say your friendly Willard the Rat is flying by and drops out a Sensor Scan 3, which provides a -67.6 DRR debuff on the target. The target's DR is going to be -32.2% now. They're going to be taking 132.2% damage.
The 40k BO would hit for 52880 damage.
A 60k BO would hit for 79320 damage.
With debuffs able to stack into the 200%+ damage range...
Well virus, you kind of proved my point, because before even getting those high CTRD #'s, relied on a basic CRTH% chance, so BO didn't always hit for huge amounts, than throw in the fact it drained 50 to your WP, made it even less desirable.
Now picture being hit with a 100% CTRH BO every time, and than imagine being hit like you described being heavily debuffed, and than go even further with a BO coming from every angle, as multiple people blast you with it, or some off chance a [Over] procs right after using a BO3 on you.
Sure someone could argue that Cruisers are suppsosed to tank
That "someone" would be a moron with no clue what the "tank" role is.
A tank needs to both get/hold aggro, and survive it. Being invincible does not mean you are a tank. Since there are no hard threat grabbing abilities in STO, the tank needs to deal sufficient damage to get the enemy's attention.
A cruiser that does 5k DPS is not going to be a tank for escorts that do 15k, no matter how many +Threat and -Threat console/skills the party is using.
I think that cruisers are able to get aggro if they can show the other team that they're awesome healers. Then they need to be able to take the punishment.
I think that cruisers are able to get aggro if they can show the other team that they're awesome healers. Then they need to be able to take the punishment.
Just my opinion.
Not everyone prefers to play in a premade team.
Have you ever seen Star Trek on TV?
Cruisers are NOT healer ships.
Even in STO the un-holy trinity has been abandoned long ago (thankfully).
Even if someone should need such a ship, science ships are much more appropriate for such a job.
Cruisers in Trek always where multi mission ship, translated to STO they should be the most versatile single player ships IMO, able to take care of themselves and dish out damege.
Escorts and Science ships on the other hand should serve more extreme playstyles.
I never got why this is such a problem in STO, why are Cruisers put into roles so radical different as in "real" trek. Why not make them much more true to trek as they should be?
Why is it obviously such a problem for the devs to make them enjoyable to fly?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Because Aux2BS allows escorts to be the "every ship". This BO upgrade just makes it worse. Why fly a cruiser when you can BO 3 the TRIBBLE out of everything instantly and have the BO 3 back in 15 seconds?
Just makeit so that it fires at your target, and two targets near it, like Cannon Scatter Volley.
Scatter Volley does bonus damage too. And FaW isn't overpowered, it's a necessary multi-purpose power.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
no player should be able to do that kind of dmg in 1 shot..
I agree. Not even 50k damage. Not even 10k damage. This is the main problem of STO, the power creep. Unfortunately we cant do anything about it.
Before the BO upgrade, you had fellows doing 40-50k DPS in their scimitars without even blinking and im not talking about criticals. So a critic of 200k doesnt seem to "much" for me anyways lol. In pvp, you can get killed in just 2 shots of 30k - 40k damage, so, who cares if bo criticals are doing 200k damage?? lol, it is a bit stupid if you think on it.
For the ammount of shields and hull a ship has, a hit that inflicts more than 4k-5k damage is already too much in this game. But since this game is not about tactic, combat strategy or anything anymore, we just need to get used to it. Of course, this will never be fixed for "better" so, as i said, better to get used to it...
Loved that video from Ker'rat...I haven't done any PvP since I came back from an extended break. From what I see it's to be avoided; 40k+ crits... yikes. Basically, insta-death in one pass.
I understand the dev's wanting to make BO more viable for PvE, but it's clear they didn't bother thinking too much about the consequences for PvP. :rolleyes:
Loved that video from Ker'rat...I haven't done any PvP since I came back from an extended break. From what I see it's to be avoided; 40k+ crits... yikes. Basically, insta-death in one pass.
I understand the dev's wanting to make BO more viable for PvE, but it's clear they didn't bother thinking too much about the consequences for PvP. :rolleyes:
But the thing is BO WAS viable before this ridiculous change. I have 2 cruisers that are designed to do nothing but BO. They even have 8 beams on them. The builds were designed to tolerate and replenish the drain almost as fast as it happened. My DPS was quite often in the top 2 in PvE matches and almost always in the top 3 in PvP.
Honestly I think people were wanting to use it but didn't know how to use it properly, whined and cryptic caved to their demands.
But the thing is BO WAS viable before this ridiculous change. I have 2 cruisers that are designed to do nothing but BO. They even have 8 beams on them. The builds were designed to tolerate and replenish the drain almost as fast as it happened. My DPS was quite often in the top 2 in PvE matches and almost always in the top 3 in PvP.
Honestly I think people were wanting to use it but didn't know how to use it properly, whined and cryptic caved to their demands.
I didn't say it wasn't viable... I said they wanted it to be "more viable" they wanted the regular masses to be able to use it effectively without too much thinking. IE you put it on your bar and thinking period done lol. Forget building a ship around what you wanna do just put the skill on your bar and away you go.
I didn't say it wasn't viable... I said they wanted it to be "more viable" they wanted the regular masses to be able to use it effectively without too much thinking. IE you put it on your bar and thinking period done lol. Forget building a ship around what you wanna do just put the skill on your bar and away you go.
If they want the game to be one of little thought then they should just put an "I win" button in and be done with it. Still, when I think they can't possibly make any more decisions as dumb as the last one they go and surprise me. I shudder to think what's next.
I didn't say it wasn't viable... I said they wanted it to be "more viable" they wanted the regular masses to be able to use it effectively without too much thinking. IE you put it on your bar and thinking period done lol. Forget building a ship around what you wanna do just put the skill on your bar and away you go.
Exactly what happened. People weren't using it a lot outside of PvP, so they decided to lower the bar and make it easy to use. The problem is, it's so easy now, it has ruined PvP.
I find it insulting that the devs haven't said anything about this issue since last Wednesday.
And that is of course the problem..... people want an I win button.... no one wants to do anything to get stuff.... they want it handed to them.... so they can then ***** when they have it they have nothing to do and go off to play something else.
People talking like Beam Overload all the sudden made content trivial.
Here's a news flash. All the content is this game was already trivial before the update to BO.
We have DPS builds in the 16k to 30k or whatever categories BEFORE BO change.
We have BFAW that does miraculous damage over an area and better on a single target than Pre-BO Change.
We already had guys that would rip you apart out of cloaks using Cannons or whatever before the firing cycle ended. Matter of fact, if they didn't kill you on that run, something went terribly wrong.
We had before the update ships that could take an entire side of CSE to themselves.
We could annihilate the 1st Cube & 2 Spheres in ISE in barely over 5 seconds. The rest of the Borg in the ISE didn't fare much better. This was before the BO update.
So what I'm saying is this:
It's fine to burn something down quick using your BFAWboats or whatever technique, whether it's single target or multiple targets, but the moment BO becomes competitive as a single target spike, people are up in arms? :rolleyes:
--- It's fine for everyone of those guys that roll their ships around BFAW and melting everything in the area, melting that single target quickly, efficiently with crit after crit after crit on what they hit... but when BO is made good for single target people are getting upset? Are people that upset with any changes to the status quo?
The reason they made BO auto-crit was to lower the damage variance between users, but now they're running into the problem of different users having different Critical Severities.
So why don't they just make BO never crit, but have a big damage boost? That would definitely lower the variance.
The reason they made BO auto-crit was to lower the damage variance between users, but now they're running into the problem of different users having different Critical Severities.
So why don't they just make BO never crit, but have a big damage boost? That would definitely lower the variance.
Would make sense I suppose and it would make sure Romulan don't have extremely superior BO's with not only the decloak bonus but their boffs severity.
The reason they made BO auto-crit was to lower the damage variance between users, but now they're running into the problem of different users having different Critical Severities.
So why don't they just make BO never crit, but have a big damage boost? That would definitely lower the variance.
yes yes how about faw not crit and sever at all too ? that would make it even too! lets kill all the consoles, reputation traits, weapon proc all all totaly killed and useless so maybe everyone can deal the same dmg with all the weapon regardless how noobs they are! worldpeace!!!!! \o/ \o/
on a srs note:
i worked hard for getting a high crit severity and crit dmg rate.. i was happy with the BO's auto crit dmg with a lowered base dmg because my work put in crit severity were not in vain.. at least..
but nerfing more the BO's while a2bFaWDEMetc club are still got nothing to loose, im mad and feel buttfrustrated very much.
but nerfing more the BO's while a2bFaWDEMetc club are still got nothing to loose, im mad and feel buttfrustrated very much.
Yes!!!! Yes, yes and more YES!!
I remember reading that they were reluctant to change Aux2Bull$h!t because people had spent so much to make those builds. What about the amounts that people spent to raise their [CritH] for use with beams? That can be as expensive, if not more, than that stupid-no-skill-cookie-cutter Aux2BS rubbish.
Comments
A BO3 crit couldn't hit as hard as a HY3 crit before, and now it's doing 75% of the damage it was before...
As for the highest hull achievable being in the 60k range, that's not taking into account effective hull. The 60k hull guy with 25% DR...has 80k hull. With 33% DR...has 90k hull. With 50% DR...120k hull. With 67% DR...182k hull.
For those big crits that folks are talking about - you're looking at SNBs, Sensor Scans, Disruptor Breaches, APBs, APDs, etc, etc, etc - all the various debuffs that stack up to create all sorts of awesome damage.
Say somebody has a single Rare Mk XI Neut giving them +17.5 DRR. They've got no other DRR sources, so they've got 14.9% DR. They're only going to be taking 85.1% damage.
The 40k BO would hit for 34040 damage.
A 60k BO would hit for 51060 damage.
Say your friendly Willard the Rat is flying by and drops out a Sensor Scan 3, which provides a -67.6 DRR debuff on the target. The target's DR is going to be -32.2% now. They're going to be taking 132.2% damage.
The 40k BO would hit for 52880 damage.
A 60k BO would hit for 79320 damage.
With debuffs able to stack into the 200%+ damage range...
Double-taps are back for now... let's see how long it lasts
But my question is, if they change FAW to do way less damage than now, at what area would a Cruiser be at advantage compared to a Escort?
I mean it's not like Cruisers would have been more effective as Escorts before. But if they nerf FAW then whats left for (starfleet) cruisers?
After they nerf FAW:
Starfleet Cruisers: spike damage power, one spam clearing power almost no one is going to use anymore afaik.
Escorts: TWO Spike damage power (Beam Overload, Rapid fire) and one effective AOE attack that does noticeable increased damage.
Plus if time tells that some ships could use a area spam clear power, there's no reason for a escort not to use FAW.
I'd say that's pretty unbalanced.
Sure someone could argue that Cruisers are suppsosed to tank, but:
One, there's nothing a escort couldn't tank just as well and
Two, crusiers aren't supposed to be flying bricks in the first place (if you want STO at least a BIT like "real" trek).
So in my opinion, the new changes are basicly Starfleet Cruiser only nerfs, unless the devs are going to change rapid fire and scatter volley too. (maybe like making them apply to Beam weapons too or something.)
Another idea would be make all starfleet ships able to use DHCs or give them a equal weapon, so they can use Scatter volley and Rapid Fire too.
(i'm not greedy about the increased damage, i'm only talking about cryptc limiting Starfleet ships tactical options. Which is simply unfair IMO)
Well virus, you kind of proved my point, because before even getting those high CTRD #'s, relied on a basic CRTH% chance, so BO didn't always hit for huge amounts, than throw in the fact it drained 50 to your WP, made it even less desirable.
Now picture being hit with a 100% CTRH BO every time, and than imagine being hit like you described being heavily debuffed, and than go even further with a BO coming from every angle, as multiple people blast you with it, or some off chance a [Over] procs right after using a BO3 on you.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
That "someone" would be a moron with no clue what the "tank" role is.
A tank needs to both get/hold aggro, and survive it. Being invincible does not mean you are a tank. Since there are no hard threat grabbing abilities in STO, the tank needs to deal sufficient damage to get the enemy's attention.
A cruiser that does 5k DPS is not going to be a tank for escorts that do 15k, no matter how many +Threat and -Threat console/skills the party is using.
Just my opinion.
Have you ever seen Star Trek on TV?
Cruisers are NOT healer ships.
Even in STO the un-holy trinity has been abandoned long ago (thankfully).
Even if someone should need such a ship, science ships are much more appropriate for such a job.
Cruisers in Trek always where multi mission ship, translated to STO they should be the most versatile single player ships IMO, able to take care of themselves and dish out damege.
Escorts and Science ships on the other hand should serve more extreme playstyles.
I never got why this is such a problem in STO, why are Cruisers put into roles so radical different as in "real" trek. Why not make them much more true to trek as they should be?
Why is it obviously such a problem for the devs to make them enjoyable to fly?
Just makeit so that it fires at your target, and two targets near it, like Cannon Scatter Volley.
Scatter Volley does bonus damage too. And FaW isn't overpowered, it's a necessary multi-purpose power.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
I agree. Not even 50k damage. Not even 10k damage. This is the main problem of STO, the power creep. Unfortunately we cant do anything about it.
Before the BO upgrade, you had fellows doing 40-50k DPS in their scimitars without even blinking and im not talking about criticals. So a critic of 200k doesnt seem to "much" for me anyways lol. In pvp, you can get killed in just 2 shots of 30k - 40k damage, so, who cares if bo criticals are doing 200k damage?? lol, it is a bit stupid if you think on it.
For the ammount of shields and hull a ship has, a hit that inflicts more than 4k-5k damage is already too much in this game. But since this game is not about tactic, combat strategy or anything anymore, we just need to get used to it. Of course, this will never be fixed for "better" so, as i said, better to get used to it...
I believe that's not how CSV works, CSV hits everything in the cone. I used to rotate two copies of CSV1, it would hit all the sphere spawns in ISE.
I understand the dev's wanting to make BO more viable for PvE, but it's clear they didn't bother thinking too much about the consequences for PvP. :rolleyes:
But the thing is BO WAS viable before this ridiculous change. I have 2 cruisers that are designed to do nothing but BO. They even have 8 beams on them. The builds were designed to tolerate and replenish the drain almost as fast as it happened. My DPS was quite often in the top 2 in PvE matches and almost always in the top 3 in PvP.
Honestly I think people were wanting to use it but didn't know how to use it properly, whined and cryptic caved to their demands.
I didn't say it wasn't viable... I said they wanted it to be "more viable" they wanted the regular masses to be able to use it effectively without too much thinking. IE you put it on your bar and thinking period done lol. Forget building a ship around what you wanna do just put the skill on your bar and away you go.
If they want the game to be one of little thought then they should just put an "I win" button in and be done with it. Still, when I think they can't possibly make any more decisions as dumb as the last one they go and surprise me. I shudder to think what's next.
Exactly what happened. People weren't using it a lot outside of PvP, so they decided to lower the bar and make it easy to use. The problem is, it's so easy now, it has ruined PvP.
I find it insulting that the devs haven't said anything about this issue since last Wednesday.
Maybe that "I win" button.
I'd say they need another 12% reduction.
And that is of course the problem..... people want an I win button.... no one wants to do anything to get stuff.... they want it handed to them.... so they can then ***** when they have it they have nothing to do and go off to play something else.
Wait .... ppl complain about FAW (see OP) and BO get's nerfed ??
How did this happen ??
Is this another -- we ask for more per for the Galaxy , they make it more tanky deal ?
... or is this the response because some of us were happy that BO became a viable alternative to FAW / torpedoes ...
I don't think you've been following what's going on lately...
EDIT: BO got buffed big time as it always crits now and drains no power. Now they're lowering it's power to be acceptable.
They need define acceptable, as in it is weaker than simply using normal weapon fire, would sound logical to them.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Here's a news flash. All the content is this game was already trivial before the update to BO.
We have DPS builds in the 16k to 30k or whatever categories BEFORE BO change.
We have BFAW that does miraculous damage over an area and better on a single target than Pre-BO Change.
We already had guys that would rip you apart out of cloaks using Cannons or whatever before the firing cycle ended. Matter of fact, if they didn't kill you on that run, something went terribly wrong.
We had before the update ships that could take an entire side of CSE to themselves.
We could annihilate the 1st Cube & 2 Spheres in ISE in barely over 5 seconds. The rest of the Borg in the ISE didn't fare much better. This was before the BO update.
So what I'm saying is this:
It's fine to burn something down quick using your BFAWboats or whatever technique, whether it's single target or multiple targets, but the moment BO becomes competitive as a single target spike, people are up in arms? :rolleyes:
--- It's fine for everyone of those guys that roll their ships around BFAW and melting everything in the area, melting that single target quickly, efficiently with crit after crit after crit on what they hit... but when BO is made good for single target people are getting upset? Are people that upset with any changes to the status quo?
REALLY?!?
By another ~13%, though?! (see above) On top of the 25%?
[Citation required]
The reason they made BO auto-crit was to lower the damage variance between users, but now they're running into the problem of different users having different Critical Severities.
So why don't they just make BO never crit, but have a big damage boost? That would definitely lower the variance.
Would make sense I suppose and it would make sure Romulan don't have extremely superior BO's with not only the decloak bonus but their boffs severity.
also give dual heavy cannons 360 firing arc and a new ability that drains the enemy weapon power instead of the players when shooting them....
well so much for beams again....:(
yes yes how about faw not crit and sever at all too ? that would make it even too! lets kill all the consoles, reputation traits, weapon proc all all totaly killed and useless so maybe everyone can deal the same dmg with all the weapon regardless how noobs they are! worldpeace!!!!! \o/ \o/
on a srs note:
i worked hard for getting a high crit severity and crit dmg rate.. i was happy with the BO's auto crit dmg with a lowered base dmg because my work put in crit severity were not in vain.. at least..
but nerfing more the BO's while a2bFaWDEMetc club are still got nothing to loose, im mad and feel buttfrustrated very much.
there are proc we work for
Yes!!!! Yes, yes and more YES!!
I remember reading that they were reluctant to change Aux2Bull$h!t because people had spent so much to make those builds. What about the amounts that people spent to raise their [CritH] for use with beams? That can be as expensive, if not more, than that stupid-no-skill-cookie-cutter Aux2BS rubbish.
(Those that can, do. Those that can't, Aux2BS.)