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New Beam Overload and discussed FaW changes: Why it's a bad idea

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  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    When they adjust these kind of skills, they should always think, what would a PvP vaper do? Instead, they cater to the average and create this kind of mess.
    I'm happy with the change. Makes BO feel a lot less like a filler BOFF power.

    Then again, I'm effectively as average as you can get. =p
  • dsarisdsaris Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    These BO changes are completely insane. No way it will last. Will be fun for a few weeks though. I don't even build for ridiculously high DPS and I regularly see six digit BO crits. Now, I might see seven digit crits.
  • sf911sf911 Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Would you say that BFaW is still > BO for PVE at least?
  • dgdolphdgdolph Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    sf911 wrote: »
    Would you say that BFaW is still > BO for PVE at least?

    For sure. And that's never going to change. BO is a pure PvP skill that will always be useless in PvE.


    Anyway, I'm just asking myself if anyone at Cryptic ever thought about PvP when doing this change :confused:
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Beam Overload did require some kind of revamp. Even with my tac's accuracy bonus past +40%, my Beam Overload attacks still missed roughly half the time, which is nothing short of ridiculous.
  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dgdolph wrote: »
    For sure. And that's never going to change. BO is a pure PvP skill that will always be useless in PvE.


    Anyway, I'm just asking myself if anyone at Cryptic ever thought about PvP when doing this change :confused:

    hey but don't worry, remember, they listen.. and as such we should see this balanced and changes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgfiSzCy1o

    oh man, cause they have done it so much in the past.. I cant waite to hear everyone claim they listen to us, just to have this issue (adding to the pile already there) just be brushed over and nothing done about it..
  • dgdolphdgdolph Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    shar487a wrote: »
    Beam Overload did require some kind of revamp. Even with my tac's accuracy bonus past +40%, my Beam Overload attacks still missed roughly half the time, which is nothing short of ridiculous.

    You Sir, are doing it wrong!

    Stop shooting high defense targets that are running APO, evasive etc. If you watch your targets bufflists more carefully, you'll almost get a 100% chance to hit.
  • gooddaytodie39gooddaytodie39 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Eh? If a vape build can already one-shot someone, it would mean it's not an issue because it doesn't change your effectiveness.
    Actually it does. It will make me that much more effective=OP. Basically will make it too easy, unbalanced IMO. Not fun.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dgdolph wrote: »
    You Sir, are doing it wrong!

    Stop shooting high defense targets that are running APO, evasive etc. If you watch your targets bufflists more carefully, you'll almost get a 100% chance to hit.


    My tac has max targetting skill, Nukara Converter, 8472cc deflector, Accurate space trait, all [Acc]+ weapons, etc... Pretty much every possible +accuracy modifier.

    The target was a sci ship with no APO available, trying to out-turn my ship which is less than 2km from his six, no evasive present. Yet my beam overloads consistently miss while my regular beam array shots hit every time.

    Something just isn't right with this picture.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dgdolph wrote: »
    For sure. And that's never going to change.

    I trust that the developers will eventually get around to revising it. And that means, usually, removing things and making them take longer and overall be weaker.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I read so much about vaper builds and people with several ten thousand dmg Crit hits. Now need to ask, what are Vaper builds and how can i achieve these tens of thousand Crit Dmg Hits? I alrqeady use the Nukara console, the Romulan Rep console, the borg console, Fleet AP beams and fleet Ap consoles on my Assault cruiser.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The R&D Beam Trait provides +2% Beam Bonus Damage, with a duration of 20s, that can 3-stack.

    FAW is 10s up and 10s down.

    ie, you can't stack it using just FAW.

    Note, BO consumes the cycle - it will be the only shot fired from that weapon. It's not BO + 3 normal shots; it's just the BO.

    000 FAWa +2%
    020 FAWb +2%
    040 FAWa +2%
    060 FAWb +2%

    000 FAW +2%
    015 BO +4%
    030 FAW +6%
    045 BO +6%
    060 FAW +6%

    In a 60s period, you'd have one less FAW...meaning you'd miss out on up to 10 shots. However, up to 20 of your FAW shots would have +6% bonus damage applied to them...and...you'd have the +4% BO as well as +6% BO added to the mix.

    Say there were always at least two targets available - the first scenario is FAW2 - the second scenario is the pairing of FAW2/BO2, with the base 50% CrtD, and no other Bonus boosts outside of the stacking R&D Beam Trait. X would represent BaseMagnitude & Strength Boosts.

    First Scenario

    10 * 1.06 * 1.02 * X = 10.812X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.02 * X = 10.812X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.02 * X = 10.812X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.02 * X = 10.812X

    4 * 10.812X = 43.248X

    Second Scenario

    10 * 1.06 * 1.02 * X = 10.812X
    1 * 5.4375 * 1.54 * X = 8.37375X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.06 * X = 11.236X
    1 * 5.4375 * 1.56 * X = 8.4825X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.06 * X = 11.236X

    10.812X + 8.37375X + 11.236X + 8.4825X + 11.236X = 50.14025X

    43.248X vs. 50.14025X

    No a fair comparison, mind you...work in say 25% Crit Chance to go along with that 50% CrtD? Bump the CrtD to 125%? Yeah, 25% CrtH and 125% CrtD...okay then...

    First Scenario - Take Two

    10 * 1.06 * 1.3325 * X = 14.1245X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.3325 * X = 14.1245X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.3325 * X = 14.1245X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.3325 * X = 14.1245X

    4 * 14.1245X = 56.498X

    Second Scenario - Take Two

    10 * 1.06 * 1.3325 * X = 14.1245X
    1 * 5.4375 * 2.29 * X = 12.451875X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.3725 * X = 14.5485X
    1 * 5.4375 * 2.31 * X = 12.560625X
    10 * 1.06 * 1.3725 * X = 14.5485X

    14.19075X + 12.451875X + 14.5485X + 12.560625X + 14.5485X = 68.234X

    56.498X vs. 68.234X

    Folks didn't use BO because of the Drain. That -50 Weapon Power could mean a loss of up to 100% or more damage on the remaining Energy Weapons as well as potentially affecting other damage depending on Cores/Traits. The Drain is gone...

    Course, the above is just spreadsheet warrior theorycrafting and would require actual field testing to prove...it's just a hypothesis and all; though, don't forget when testing it to keep an eye on how the debuffs will affect it, eh?

    With that: 56.498X vs. 68.234X :and a +50% damage from debuffs, you'd be looking at...

    84.747X vs. 102.351X

    ...but again, it's just spreadsheet warrior stuff - speculative - theoretical - hypothesis - and all that jazz. Would require actual testing and so forth...
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    *snip*
    With that: 56.498X vs. 68.234X :and a +50% damage from debuffs, you'd be looking at...

    84.747X vs. 102.351X

    ...but again, it's just spreadsheet warrior stuff - speculative - theoretical - hypothesis - and all that jazz. Would require actual testing and so forth...

    People are already getting 100K to 200K damage. So theory crafting has already been achieved. This kills any possibility of PvP in my book for non escorts. At some point I am going to Ker'rat and I am going to hang out under cloak and enjoy the tears. Some of these same people supported Cryptic's silly cheese and OP TRIBBLE. Now they will face the consequences of an out of control dev team ... with a blood lust for profits!
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    25% is a significant amount.

    Insane high crits already existed, this does back them down ... its just it allows more reliable crits that will not go to 200k.

    Lol, with the supposed 25% loss in damage, now they will just do 150k. :rolleyes:
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    Lol, with the supposed 25% loss in damage, now they will just do 150k. :rolleyes:

    But the 150K is every single time they hit with alpha. It is the little details that escape this dev team.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Despite what everyone thinks, I reckon we can all agree that this needed at least 1 week's testing on tribble.

    Instead they rushed it out with zero feedback, so they fully deserve any flak they get over it.
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    People are already getting 100K to 200K damage. So theory crafting has already been achieved.

    What I presented was about FAW/BO turning...rotating them...vs. 2x FAW. Wasn't about BO hits in of themselves.

    For those folks sharing the 100-200k hits, ask them what kind of debuffs were stacked on the target and then keep in mind that before this morning's patch...they were hitting 25% harder.

    What I presented would still need applied testing to verify...
  • marshalstommmarshalstomm Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This game has REALLY gone down the drain since PWE took over.

    Recently it's all about DPS.

    You used to see a nice balance of Tactical, Engineer, and Science Officers flying around. Now it seems like it's 75% Tacticals, 20% Engineers, and 5% Sciences.

    And now, to further focus on DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS, they've looked at a skill that was perfectly fine, and said "We need to fix this". And then proceeded to take a jackhammer to it.

    No power drain for OVERLOADING a Beam Array? And a GUARANTEED critical hit!?
    People who used BO for the sole purpose of increasing DPS took other measures to compensate for the power drain. Those who didn't either used it as a 'finishing move' or didn't know how to build ships.

    Since Cryptic/PWE is so intent on removing things that will hurt DPS, I have a proposal, and you're already partway there.

    Just remove power drain from weapons completely!
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    This game has REALLY gone down the drain since PWE took over.

    Recently it's all about DPS.

    You used to see a nice balance of Tactical, Engineer, and Science Officers flying around. Now it seems like it's 75% Tacticals, 20% Engineers, and 5% Sciences.

    And now, to further focus on DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS, they've looked at a skill that was perfectly fine, and said "We need to fix this". And then proceeded to take a jackhammer to it.

    No power drain for OVERLOADING a Beam Array? And a GUARANTEED critical hit!?
    People who used BO for the sole purpose of increasing DPS took other measures to compensate for the power drain. Those who didn't either used it as a 'finishing move' or didn't know how to build ships.

    Since Cryptic/PWE is so intent on removing things that will hurt DPS, I have a proposal, and you're already partway there.

    Just remove power drain from weapons completely!

    It's always about DPS. Heck, they put out a nice UR RCS console with a science boost, I think awesome, great boost to science, finally. People complain, and now the R&D RCS console is being turned to junk.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ...<SNIP>...

    Just remove power drain from weapons completely!

    It's already here! DEM + Marion Frances Dulmer + BO = woot!

    ...until the BO misses as usual... :p
  • chemist6lpchemist6lp Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Despite what everyone thinks, I reckon we can all agree that this needed at least 1 week's testing on tribble.

    Instead they rushed it out with zero feedback, so they fully deserve any flak they get over it.

    This. No explanation, no nothing, just some "cryptic" mention of a meta-game change. Well, there won't be much of a game to change before they get to it.
    Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
  • policestate76policestate76 Member Posts: 1,424 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Despite what everyone thinks, I reckon we can all agree that this needed at least 1 week's testing on tribble.

    Instead they rushed it out with zero feedback, so they fully deserve any flak they get over it.

    Erm.. its the way of cryptic, unfortunately, since time ago already not just in this case.. :(
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Based on what I've read, BO is being updated to be more effective as a precursor to making FAW less effective on single targets.

    Or have I read that right?

    If true I'm curious to see what impact this will have on the 30K+ FAW A2B club.

    Simple.

    You adjust your build. Not like STO or any other MMORPG has had far larger, sweeping changes.

    You adjust or rage on the boards.
    lucho80 wrote: »
    It's always about DPS. Heck, they put out a nice UR RCS console with a science boost, I think awesome, great boost to science, finally. People complain, and now the R&D RCS console is being turned to junk.

    Oh? What's going to happen to those consoles?
    XzRTofz.gif
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2014
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Here's my video made specially to showcase the new BO...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJrplCwXB8Y&feature=youtu.be
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • darramouss1darramouss1 Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    voporak, thank you for making that video. Every person on the forum can say this and say that, but actually seeing it, well, that just adds another level of reality to this fubar situation.

    Devs, are you convinced yet? Are you yet convinced that you stuffed up? Here's a free piece of advice for you. Everyone makes mistakes. It's a part of life. Being able to admit you you made a mistake? That's a sign of class. Show us you have some class and reverse this decision.
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    My Elite Swarmers were worth 3800 DPS all by themselves today. And they only live long enough, usually, to fire a single BO each; the much longer-lived Drone Ships and JHAS got a big boost from BO's buff.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Not sure if anybody has brought this up, but here's an interesting question!

    Does the [Over] work when using BFAW , or not work when using BFAW?

    Does it simply negate the other skill, or does it not work until BFAW is finished?

    Because if it can work with BFAW being active, just imagine the occasional BO to go along with that beam ball spam.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    What's this [Over] everyone is on about? Is that where a beam wep gets a gratuitous BO every now and then?

    I haven't seen any consoles with it yet, though.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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