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Get Rid of dying and respawns

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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    daan2006 wrote: »
    ya there called afkers..............

    AKA leechers too.

    /10char
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    daan2006 wrote: »
    ya there called afkers..............

    So people who refuse to respawn out of an infantile desire to get revenge on a team that refuses to revive/repair them get an afk penalty.

    It seems like a pretty self-correcting measure.
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    yup.
    people spout winge whine about 'teamwork' while showing none.

    not to mentions the incentivisation is completly backwards. with voth ground rewarding more for not playing.

    and mirror event being utterly stupid in its decisions ofclass X does X dribble.

    the players and davs are both TRIBBLE up the basic game invironment.

    its not a buch of friends tooling around in one room over lan.
    its not a game focussed in a single country where everyone speaks the same language to TRIBBLE about with the assinine fail bull**** trinity.
    its not a game where all the content forces pre-lobbying to get a team with set ratios of classes.

    until people get their heads around what that means, and the devs start accounting for it, we will continue to get the systemically broken content not recognising this is causing.


    i can pug just fine as is without having some control freak with an over inflated ego trying to have the game built in a way that forces dependence.


    that is utterly and completly backwards from what i posted.

    The purpose of the comment, is if they made such a game mechanic, than if you are worried about the issue of someone not team playing, than work with friends, or a fleet only.
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    that is utterly and completly backwards from what i posted.

    How so? You are saying it forces dependance. I'm saying it doesn't.

    Your ship gets disabled for X amount of seconds. You either wait to respawn (like it is now), or a team member comes over to revive/repair you before your respawn timer is up.

    And if you're soloing, then the mechanic can be temporarily suspended, and only becomes active when others are on your team.

    What I'm suggesting is no different than it is now, except now your team has the option to get you back into action instead of forcing you to respawn when you blow up.
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  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i will say this for the record i dont mine my ship being disable for X amount of time but if i need a player to help me get un disable then no go for me


    and not a fan of the mini game part to

    and in all honesty no one die in this game because we are on a holodeck think of it like the Kobayashi Maru test
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • landdonlanddon Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I would prefer that if your ship is destroyed then it become unavailable for a time period say 24 to 72 hours. This would make the ships more valuable, and for those that own more than one ship more practical and provide an use for them.
  • ufpdewolfeufpdewolfe Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    How about a similar system the Left 4 Dead series uses.

    When on a team/or w/ BOFFs in both ground and space.

    For Ships:

    After warp core breach there remains a floating wreck that can be rezzed.

    Ship has a temporary health that ticks down and the ship has limited ability to shoot back.

    If all teammates are defeated, normal re spawn process.

    On the ground:

    Same as it is now, except maybe you can still fight back a little with ticking down temp health.

    If all teammates down, transporters effect and a medical team revives all at the re spawn point.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    k. i read it as leaving players dependant on other players for the event. my apologies.

    this however, still doesnt work with STOs incentivisation. even in the battlefield games & ps2, where there is a reward for rezzing, people still dont.
    or they find a way to troll the player being rezzed by causing them to be killed repeatedly.

    Well, restoring health still counts in terms of participation. I do agree there should be better incentivization for support ships, however.

    In terms of incentivization, the odds of a ship surviving after a cruiser or science ships repairs them is signifigantly greater due to the greater amount of hull/shield health that is restored. As compared to an Escort that mainly restores subsystem power (in which case it is up to the ship they repair to use that power to enhance their shields/aux in order to heal, or alternatively use the additional engine power to run, or weapon power to try to kill what killed them).

    When you increase the odds of a ship to survive, the less likely it is that ship will blow up immediately after it is revived. That, in itself, is a type of incentivization. The incentive is that your friend/fleetie/pug isn't going to immediately die 2 seconds after being repaired by a ship qualified to make those hull/shield repairs, than an escort.

    It's a poor incentive, but that has more to do with the lack of other, more obvious incentives.
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  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    I've always found it an imersion shater when I died....I always thought my ship should be severely disabled and I'd have to do a minigame to get my ship working again, that or dedicated healers with our own abilitiy to slowly repair our ship to combat stance.

    anyone else kinda wish we could just disable ships or have our ships severely disabled?

    I kinda thought of it as a true to trek lore option.

    Uh, not sure I even understand this.

    Death and the threat of death are certainly a part of Trek lore... if anything, future Trek needs more of it. I'm sure the ships at Wolf 359 found the whole blowing-up thing "immersion breaking"... and they didn't get a respawn!

    But, seriously... I wouldn't be opposed to reducing respawn times (WHY are you penalized in STFs if your ship blows up more than once?!). That said, this is a video game, and we have hit points for a reason. Health goes bye-bye, you go bye-bye.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,283 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    For the sake of fairness, a similar mechanic should work on the ground. If you die in ground combat, your team has X amount of seconds to initiate emergency resusitation before you die and have to respawn.
    this is actually how it works in neverwinter online - you get incapacitated and a timer starts; any player on your team can attempt to revive you or you can use a scroll of life if you have one (zen item, of course), but once that countdown hits 0, you die and your only option is to respawn
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mhall85 wrote: »
    (WHY are you penalized in STFs if your ship blows up more than once?!)

    Because Gozer.
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    then your goal is to force the death of the public queues for no reason than forcing the silly trinity?


    ... ok. i read it as leaving players dependant on other players for the event. my apologies.

    this however, still doesnt work with STOs incentivisation. even in the battlefield games & ps2, where there is a reward for rezzing, people still dont.
    or they find a way to troll the player being rezzed by causing them to be killed repeatedly.

    It wouldn't force the death of the public queue, but it would make people actually use something attached to their body (it's called their head), and not act so mindless like they are now.

    There is nothing wrong with promoting teamwork, to accomplish a goal, heck other MMORPG's make you have to rely on other's, to even do missions, and if you all die, guess what mission fail.

    Think of it like the cleric role for D&D, even though no one is a dedicated cleric, it's just player's have the ability to Rez you, so the mission doesn't completely fail is all.

    Besides, I rarely ever die (like maybe 1 time every 3-5 months in a pve), so not a big concern, and yes I do throw around healing aid often to pug team mates.
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ya but this game has gone on to long to start needing team work
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I always liked idea (shocker, I know) of warping out to a safe distance then re-engaging at half health at the start of the map. All within 15 seconds....
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    Because Gozer.

    Guess he didn't take into account scenarios where you're flying a tricked-out anti-Borg escort... but, you still blow up because you're STILL just an escort, and the other people on your team are either inexperienced, underpowered, or uninterested?!

    I CAN'T TAKE ON THE COLLECTIVE BY MYSELF! :(

    *sigh*
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  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mhall85 wrote: »
    Guess he didn't take into account scenarios where you're flying a tricked-out anti-Borg escort... but, you still blow up because you're STILL just an escort, and the other people on your team are either inexperienced, underpowered, or uninterested?!

    I CAN'T TAKE ON THE COLLECTIVE BY MYSELF! :(

    *sigh*

    Oh no, I'm certain he was aware of the issues with his cunning plan of respawn timer penalties, since I personally made him aware of it.

    Especially when it came to the invisi-torps that one-shotted the player no matter what they did or did not do, which I also brought to his attention. He said systems was 'looking into it', but he refused to postpone his implementation of the respawn penalty until the one-shotting borg were sufficiently addressed.

    He was almost certainly aware of the issues. He simply did not care. It went kind of like this.

    Gozer: "Hey guys, we're going to make the Elite STFs more difficult and provide an emphasis on teamwork. If you die, you get a respawn timer."

    Players: "That's dumb. People die and you fail the mission."

    Gozer: "No, if your team revives you, you don't get the respawn penalty."

    Players: "Awesome."

    Me: "Uh, you can't revive dead team members in space, Gozer."

    Gozer: "..."

    Me: "In fact, we still have borg plasma torps that one-shot a player at full health and shields while invisible, and they can't do anything about it."

    Gozer: "..."

    Me: "So, yeah... I'm thinking this may not be such a good idea until after that's addressed at least, or at most, provide a way for players to revive each other in space maps."

    Gozer: "..."

    Me: "Okay, then..."

    Gozer: "Enjoy your respawn timer penalties! It's almost ready for holodeck!"

    Me: "I hate you so much right now I can taste it."
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  • stevencherylstevencheryl Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I've always found it an imersion shater when I died....I always thought my ship should be severely disabled and I'd have to do a minigame to get my ship working again, that or dedicated healers with our own abilitiy to slowly repair our ship to combat stance.

    anyone else kinda wish we could just disable ships or have our ships severely disabled?

    I kinda thought of it as a true to trek lore option.


    Immerse this...

    Not only are you dead, but you've managed to kill off your entire crew.
    500?... 2000? of your crew are dead. Think of the families they've left behind.
    And then there's the ship itself... You know what it cost to build a Starship?
    Because of YOUR actions or inaction's...
    YOU, were solely responsible for your ship and crew, and you have totally failed them...

    Or was it worth it?
    Did you save an entire world, or preserve a timeline because of your ultimate sacrifice?
    Were 10 other starships able to survive as a result of you and your crews untimely death?
    If so, you will no doubt get Starfleet's highest Honor. (Or a first class ticket to Stovokor).

    If not, your lucky your dead, because you would have been brought up on charges
    of the most serious kind.
    You've unnecessarily risked your ship and crew.
    You entered battle unprepared, or totally underestimated the ability of you enemy.
    Or perhaps, you've forgotten a very important rule...
    Sometimes it is better to live, to fight another day.

    Or maybe it's just that, Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

    Either way,
    Your dead Jim...
    Steve@SCCreations - Fleet General - Persistent Officer Title & Accolade
    Deceiver's Lair Fleet
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kestrelliuskestrellius Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Well my point is part of a theoretical "immersion" overhaul. So no respawning, because last time I checked, advanced space vessels don't magically reappear when they're destroyed. You'd have to...probably not actually go and get another one, because with things like lockbox ships that would be nightmarish, but you'd have to pay something. Dil, prolly. EC would be too cushy. They could handwave it with "oh, they have the replicator formula, so it's just a matter of building a replacement". Although on the other hand, it might add quite a bit to just have LB ships and such be easier to obtain in general, but also able to be perma-destroyed if you're not careful.

    The idea is less sterility, and more organic unpredictability. Of course, my idea also involves usable holodecks, where you'd be able to go if you wanted to play some mostly risk-free combat instances for dil or whatever. Basically, the game as it is now would be accessed from the holodeck, while going out into the galaxy would be dangerous.

    As for the actual disabling mechanic...I'd thought of that with enemy ships, too, since this proposal involves a crafting system where you actually get loot that makes sense. So, if you defeat a Galor-class, you can maybe loot a spiral-wave array or two, or a piece of Cardassian shield tech...provided you didn't completely destroy it. Certain things would have a higher chance of total destruction, like torpedoes, but would be much easier to fight with. If you destroy a ship, your chances of good loot are much lower. But if you want to put it out of the fight without causing a core breach, you have to fight carefully, almost defensively.

    Anyway how this would work for players would be that you'd be disabled, and depending on the circumstances, you'd either get repaired by teammates or just have to deal with the fact that you're helpless with enemy ships around. Getting boarded, etc. Maybe have things where in extreme circumstances, you have to actually go into your interior and help fixing things personally.
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  • oninotaki18oninotaki18 Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What if instead of exploding and respawing at the zone spawn point, your ship warped out to the respawn point with a bunch of systems damaged and like 1 percent hull points. Then you had to repair your ship (both its damaged systems and its hull points) like normal.

    I think that would be an interesting change up that helps reduce that immersion breaking feeling of dying and coming back.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Let's just don't, and say we did. In fact, let's not even say we did.

    This isn't EvE Online (although, with 300+ days crafting, maybe it is). Next thing we'll introduce ship insurance, and ere long we really *are* playing EvE.
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  • abystander0abystander0 Member Posts: 649 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    While it is fun to devise alternative mechanics for ships being put out of action, I think that any respawn/repair mechanics that gets you back in action that rely on teamwork/other players is a recipe for failure or disaster when you deal with any team that isn't a well oiled group.

    How many of you have had pugs actually communicate with you in chat during an STF, or other queued event in a meaningful way? How many pugs have you had heal or support you as opposed to those who just do their own thing and pew x3? My guess, based on my own experience, is a very very small number.


    My own thoughts though are that Auxiliary Power to the Structural Integrity Field (Aux2Sif) skill should be a base passive captain skill available to all captains. All Starships have some form of structural integrity field that supports the starship and keeps it from flying apart from the stress of motion when the when it's not affected by the warp field (warp field cancels inertia). As your starship takes damage, it puts strain on the integrity field generators, which would require more power to keep the ship from falling apart. The most effective way to deal with this is to transfer power from auxiliary power systems to compensate for the addition power needs of the integrity field. As a passive power, it would simply take a percentage of power from aux proportional to the damage your ship has taken (like a damage buffer or damage resistance). I think that the percentage of power required should be approximate to the damage taken...say a 10 percent (or points, this is just a rough idea) power drain for every 10 percent of hull damage for example (starting at say 90% hull since most non civilian starships should have some sort of built in accommodation for damage). Though at 50% damage you should face some sort of penaty, after all half of your ship is missing or is wreckage. If you have no Aux power then either it could be drained from another subsystem (at this point your aux should be offline until fixed by engineering team or something) or your ship becomes an amazing display of modern art in motion. Starship damage should be meaningful and dynamic in star trek, after all many of the episodes and movies had such battle damage as part of the plot.

    Though given that many players are casual, and are confused by complicated or fluid game mechanics, the current system is the most practical.
  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    Well my point is part of a theoretical "immersion" overhaul. So no respawning, because last time I checked, advanced space vessels don't magically reappear when they're destroyed. You'd have to...probably not actually go and get another one, because with things like lockbox ships that would be nightmarish, but you'd have to pay something. Dil, prolly. EC would be too cushy. They could handwave it with "oh, they have the replicator formula, so it's just a matter of building a replacement". Although on the other hand, it might add quite a bit to just have LB ships and such be easier to obtain in general, but also able to be perma-destroyed if you're not careful.

    The idea is less sterility, and more organic unpredictability. Of course, my idea also involves usable holodecks, where you'd be able to go if you wanted to play some mostly risk-free combat instances for dil or whatever. Basically, the game as it is now would be accessed from the holodeck, while going out into the galaxy would be dangerous.

    As for the actual disabling mechanic...I'd thought of that with enemy ships, too, since this proposal involves a crafting system where you actually get loot that makes sense. So, if you defeat a Galor-class, you can maybe loot a spiral-wave array or two, or a piece of Cardassian shield tech...provided you didn't completely destroy it. Certain things would have a higher chance of total destruction, like torpedoes, but would be much easier to fight with. If you destroy a ship, your chances of good loot are much lower. But if you want to put it out of the fight without causing a core breach, you have to fight carefully, almost defensively.

    Anyway how this would work for players would be that you'd be disabled, and depending on the circumstances, you'd either get repaired by teammates or just have to deal with the fact that you're helpless with enemy ships around. Getting boarded, etc. Maybe have things where in extreme circumstances, you have to actually go into your interior and help fixing things personally.

    I'm certainly for more immersive features, like in-ship missions... and I really like the holodeck "practice mode" idea (although, if you're sticking with canon... some ships, like Defiant-class ships, do not have holodecks). Maybe make this available on places like ESD and DS9?

    But, this overall idea will potentially make every mission last hours... and that will never happen. You can use this same line of thinking to talk about the rapid progression in rank. That is also "immersion breaking," and the only way to fix it is to significantly reduce the speed of rank progression... and that will also never happen. Further, let's face it... some teammates are lame, and will leave you high-and-dry. If you're just floating in space, while enemies are circling around you... and you can't do anything... that's not fun.

    I sympathize with your sentiments... especially if you are a RPer, you want as immersive an experience as possible. But, this is a video game, and the level of immersion some are calling for on here will never realistically happen... no matter what company is in charge of this game.

    And, while respawning isn't exactly "canonical" or "realistic," I still say that dying is absolutely a part of Trek. Something needs to be "on the line" in this game... otherwise, why play it? Death is the most logical way of accomplishing this... and unless you want to lose your character when they die, forcing you to start over from scratch... I think the respawn is a good compromise, LOL. :)
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mhall85 wrote: »
    And, while respawning isn't exactly "canonical" or "realistic," I still say that dying is absolutely a part of Trek. Something needs to be "on the line" in this game... otherwise, why play it? Death is the most logical way of accomplishing this... and unless you want to lose your character when they die, forcing you to start over from scratch... I think the respawn is a good compromise, LOL. :)
    And if, for some reason, you do want this level of "immersion", it's quite simple. Whenever your ship blows up, log out, delete the character, and start over. You're going to get pretty sick of shuttling that "Vulcan" diplomat to P'jem/rescuing Alexander from Rura Penthe/gathering people to join the nascent Republic, however...
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    I would point out, too, that I *do* have to perform repairs on my ship... mainly after Borg STFs, but it's a nice touch.

    Granted, it's just clicking a button... and, if I don't have enough components in my inventory, I have to go to a starbase to fix my ship... but that is some level of immersion right there. Even Scotty couldn't make every repair while in space... every now and again, you had to head to a starbase.
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  • antzudanantzudan Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES!

    Some of my favourite moments have been in ground STFs when there's one team member left and they have to make a mad dash to revive people before they get killed. Having this in space would be brill and make PWE feel more like you were working as a team.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I've always found it an imersion shater when I died....I always thought my ship should be severely disabled and I'd have to do a minigame to get my ship working again, that or dedicated healers with our own abilitiy to slowly repair our ship to combat stance.

    anyone else kinda wish we could just disable ships or have our ships severely disabled?

    I kinda thought of it as a true to trek lore option.

    YOU are the CAPTAIN. Said mini-game would just be clicking on one of 2 options:

    - "make it so"
    - "thats not good enough, (your engineer's name)"
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