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My enthusiasm is dead. Here's why.

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  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm with the op here.

    I used to run a fleet, well technically still do, but the bleed is so excessive only the die hards stay, and the effort to keep recruiting just isn't worth it, so now its there.. we have nothing to do and no reason to do what else is around. So now I let the fleet sort of.. do its own thing.

    I used to actually play a lot, now I log in, Doff for 10 mins per character and then I'm afk most of the night. Oh wait, they added crafting, so now I Doff and craft for 10 mins and 7 seconds.

    So here are some problems, and to sum it all up its pretty easy to see whats wrong, but nothing is going to be done with it.

    Reputation and timers.
    Daily timegates serve a purpose for customer retention, but when virtually every aspect of the game is limited to a daily timegate it makes TRIBBLE boring. I like they removed the grind from rep, I hate the fact that rep is a grind because the content is boring and nobody really wants to play it.

    Boffs
    Customizing Boffs is awesome, playing with them is kind of awesome.. if they didn't get stuck or have stupid AI. There is a lot of cool things you could do with Boffs but thats not profitable so TRIBBLE it, right? Who cares about making things fun. Its something the devs just don't care about

    Ships
    A lot of the men around seem to love their new ships, its shiny, they pay for it, and then they dump the pieces of garbage for something less gimmicy or something newer. It makes a lot of money, so they'll keep doing it.
    The problem is, why get excited about ships? The game content has been so dumbed down, so easy, so impossible to fail who really cares about ships? They are building their game on a broken platform, it makes no sense.

    Lobi Store
    I want to buy a lot of stuff from here, but I never buy anything from here. There is a lot of cool looking things, but not a lot of good things. I won't support ultra expensive low quality gear on a character unlock only basis.

    Uniformity
    One of the best ways to tell how lame things are would be NWS. The difference between enemies is SNB.. the rest doesn't matter.
    I get the devs made the Voth and Unidine different and more unique, and its great they did that, but.. other than rep why would you waste your time there? There is no reason to play it, you are time gated. No matter how different they are, the tactic is to shoot them until they die, because they aren't doing enough damage to get through even an escorts shields.
    The borg have been nerfed endlessly to be a laughing stock, and all their potentially good weapons don't even exist in STFs, its all about killing structures.

    There is a lot more to gripe about. The entire queue thing has killed any atmosphere the game once had. Restricting travel in a game is bad, but so is making everything instant, there needs a balance. The level of bugs accumulating is also a major deterent to new players and retention.. new players come in, ask why is this that? The answer is its a bug and its been that way 3+ years. After a while those bugs win, they wear on you.

    To sum it up

    You can't get rid of the feeling even enemy is the same because no matter what tricks you put on them, they don't kill you, you also never fail the mission, and you have no restriction for missions you play no matter how awful a player you might be. Those awful players never have any incentive to improve, and even if they did there is no information inside the game for them to do so. The game is so incredibly easy nothing matters. Honestly, the game shouldn't be about grinding, about time gates, and lock boxes, if you make the game fun people will play, pay and to be happy for things they like... right now its just boring. Once something is boring the game becomes a grind. Its been a grind for a while, and each season or half season only adds to the lack of playable content.
    Delirium Tremens
    Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
    Nothing to do anymore.
    http://dtfleet.com/
    Visit our Youtube channel
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Everything is based around waiting now.

    This is literally the biggest problem with the game right now. Doffing, Crafting, Queued missions, Reputation, Starbases, literally everything is based around waiting. Sure everyone complains about Grinding, but we aren't even grinding anymore! This is what Star Trek Online is now. Watching a clock. All we're doing is waiting for a timer to tick down.

    i have a really interesting, inovative and constructive reply to give to this but i havent got time now so you will have to wait.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    - the courtesy is dead: no "hi, hello" when we begin a mission, no "thx" when you help someone etc

    Oh god this is a huge deal for me. Where the hell did chivalry go?
  • maxvitormaxvitor Member Posts: 2,213 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    We've forgotten it's a game and we're supposed to be having fun. Everybody is taking it all too seriously and too many parts of the game now make it seem like a job instead of recreation. This is the kind of thing that happens when the "fun factor" has been sucked out of a game.
    If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
    Oh Hell NO to ARC
  • firefox3178firefox3178 Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Agreed - whilst there are still occasions where or or two people MIGHT say GG at the conclusion of a run, such occurences are rare.

    Sadly, the same CANNOT be said about the rage/insults etc that are forthcoming when the team don't do something that one particular player thinks they should. Example - ISE a few weeks ago.

    Captain Rage: >>>Target: Gate<<<<
    *Player A attacks final Tactical cube instead*
    Captain Rage: OMG! WTF? GATE FIRST NOOB!!

    I won't go into the mechanics of ISE - that's a discussion held many times before - but needless to say, given the choice of no communication or the above, I'd chose none.

    Then again, I can't help but think that this is all a by-product of the overly-entitled, self-important, attitudes that so many people are adopting these days.

    My main sci used to be built around fleet support. I remember getting thanked often for keeping the team alive. It was fun to help out, and you knew the people appreciated it. Now, hardly anyone bothers to acknowledge or show any gratitude for supporting them, and more often than not they will let a fellow team member go down rather than try and heal them. Courtesy is indeed dead in this game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Cryptic: If you think the bugs are bad, wait until you see our fixes!
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    maxvitor wrote: »
    We've forgotten it's a game and we're supposed to be having fun. Everybody is taking it all too seriously and too many parts of the game now make it seem like a job instead of recreation. This is the kind of thing that happens when the "fun factor" has been sucked out of a game.

    I believe this is relevant.
  • ashlotteashlotte Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    My enthusiasm is dead


    How cute. See you ingame tomorrow. - Cryptic
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ashlotte wrote: »
    How cute. See you ingame tomorrow. - Cryptic

    Uninstalled. Replaced with SFM. I think I might join the Saxxy's this year.
  • spacebaronlinespacebaronline Member Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Uninstalled. Replaced with SFM. I think I might join the Saxxy's this year.

    You know we never did get our Skants - oh well - not like that will happen now:(
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Uninstalled. Replaced with SFM. I think I might join the Saxxy's this year.

    I haven't uninstalled my game, but that's only because I still have some foundry stuffs to finish and clear up. It's hard to quit when you've got foundry missions. :(
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • ashlotteashlotte Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    nicha0 wrote: »


    Ships
    A lot of the men around seem to love their new ships, its shiny, they pay for it, and then they dump the pieces of garbage for something less gimmicy or something newer.

    AND women love ships as much as men do! >:[
  • ashlotteashlotte Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Uninstalled. Replaced with SFM. I think I might join the Saxxy's this year.

    Well, we'll miss you! :O Even though I never knew you I've seen you 'round lots.

    Won't let your well-thought out and quite truthful doom and gloom thread steal my joy though! I just bought Lifetime and regret nothing! :o
  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Everything is based around waiting now.

    This is literally the biggest problem with the game right now. Doffing, Crafting, Queued missions, Reputation, Starbases, literally everything is based around waiting. Sure everyone complains about Grinding, but we aren't even grinding anymore! This is what Star Trek Online is now. Watching a clock. All we're doing is waiting for a timer to tick down.
    Grinding and timegates are the primary issues with 'Star Trek: Online". As I said within a previous thread, the combination of both mechanics have caused a problem. Players are doing repetitious actions, so they can fill buckets to trigger off timegates.

    Neurogaming: What’s Neuroscience and Ethics Got To Do With It?
    (Listen to what Game Developer Johnathan Blow says about F2P/MMO games.)

    "Free-to-Play" developers are not interested in engaging players with meaningful content. Instead of giving players an experience similar to 'sing-player rpgs', "Free-to-Play" developers make you 'buy' your rewards. "Star Trek: Online" does not have any meaningful endgame content, which will allow you to cognitively solve anything interesting. None.

    ...and, I think that is why I have stopped.

    Reputation and Fleet gear are grinding tools. Once you hit level fifty, the meaningful part of the game ends. Regardless about what you buy, grind, unlock, or craft, the endgame items you obtain have no other specific function. "Star Trek: Online's" endgame is a very-very-very hollow experience.

    Upon hitting the end of the level fifty missions, players do not:
    (1) save the world,
    (2) earn more ranks,
    (3) able to add more skills,
    (4) interact with NPCs in a modern rpg manner (BioWare/Obsidian Style),
    (5) negotiate for peace,
    (6) trigger off more wars,
    (7) etc...

    Players are burning through money, so they can obtain items to obtain items to obtain items, etc...

    Do you know what you get at the end?

    Nothing.

    While you burn through money to complete grinds, you never reach a meaningful and deep ending.

    Players do not solve galactic issues.
    Players do not solve world hunger.
    Players do not influence wars.
    Players do not come up with diplomatic solutions.
    Players do not solve issues with diplomacy.
    Players do not solve language barrier issues.
    Players do not put together genetic puzzles, which unlock neat little philosophical debates.
    Players do not discover new species.
    Players do not learn about new cultures.
    Players do not play a role on a holodeck, so they can escape from being trapped.
    Etc...

    Cryptic and 'F2P' developers are missing what is happening to single-player rpgs. As a result of using old school mechanics, Cryptic is missing the evoling nature of single-player games. "Skyrim", "Dragon Age", "SW: KOTOR", and "NWN" are superior games.

    If they think "Star Trek: Online" and 'F2P' are going to last, Cryptic will be stuck within a world of intense denial.

    Players are going to switch back to 'single-player' games, and there is nothing 'F2P' developers can do to stop the revolving door. Nothing.
  • hyplhypl Member Posts: 3,719 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    venkou wrote: »
    Players are going to switch back to 'single-player' games, and there is nothing 'F2P' developers can do to stop the revolving door.

    The could explain why I've been suddenly playing more Skyrim lately. I also recently bought Divinity: Original Sin and having a freakin' blast with it.
  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    hypl wrote: »
    The could explain why I've been suddenly playing more Skyrim lately. I also recently bought Divinity: Original Sin and having a freakin' blast with it.
    *nods*

    $60 buys you a deeper and meaningful experience.

    When you pump $60 into "STO", the only thing you get are tools for grinding more tools.

    Its meaningless.
  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    venkou wrote: »

    Cryptic and 'F2P' developers are missing what is happening to single-player rpgs. As a result of using old school mechanics, Cryptic is missing the evoling nature of single-player games. "Skyrim", "Dragon Age", "SW: KOTOR", and "NWN" are superior games.

    If they think "Star Trek: Online" and 'F2P' are going to last, Cryptic will be stuck within a world of intense denial.

    Players are going to switch back to 'single-player' games, and there is nothing 'F2P' developers can do to stop the revolving door. Nothing.

    I think what you're missing is the fact that f2p games, while not deep in the sense that older MMOs were, are still sufficiently entertaining to dip in and out of.

    IOW, player retention isn't such a big concern for f2p as it is for subscription MMOs. They don't need to emphasize the design of things that will keep people addicted for long periods. All they need to do is to ensure that, if you like the theme (lore), then it's fun enough to come back to now and then, spend a bit of time, and spend a bit of money.

    Something like STO's endgame grind is perfect for the casual player who likes the Star Trek theme, and enjoys playing STO in bursts. Since STO launched, my first honeymoon lasted a month or so, then I got bored with the game, then a couple of months afterwards I had another burst of enthusiasm for a few weeks, dropped it again, picked it up again, dropped it again, etc., etc. By now, I've "accidentally" accumulated all the reps and rep gear, just by playing the game in bursts like that.

    So for me, it's never been a grind, because I've never tried to live in STO 24/7.

    And this is the only MMO (apart from my first) in which I've been able to accumulate endgame gear - in this case, just by picking it up and putting it down now and then, rather than being hooked 24/7 and unable to stop playing (as I was in my first MMO).

    Now I agree it would have been preferable if STO had been a rich, deep MMO with enough to keep people occupied so they can play it 24/7 (like WoW or EVE); but what STO is, is a game that's fun in bursts, and fun enough that one has a hankering to play it now and then, and have fun.

    Ideally, the game should be able to cater to both parties - "livers-in" and casuals. I actually wouldn't be surprised if X2 brings in some deeper gameplay to keep more hardcore players occupied - it's about that time. But I think once the transition to f2p was decided, the focus wouldn't have been on that, it would have been on having something to entertain casual players whenever they do come back to pay a game that, after all, is always here, and always Star Trek (at least, the most Star Trek you can get anywhere in multiplayer gaming that's graphically up to date).
  • edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    venkou wrote: »
    *nods*

    $60 buys you a deeper and meaningful experience.

    When you pump $60 into "STO", the only thing you get are tools for grinding more tools.

    Its meaningless.

    Exactly. If people are looking for content they can buy years of good stuff from steam sales. More content than Cryptic has created in 4 years at 1/5 the cost of a monthly $20 / subscription or LTS.

    People love to praise business and the "commercial" success here. So coming from that angle this is a very poor rate of return on your dollar!
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • shadokittyshadokitty Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I actually have more fun making alts and replaying leveling content than playing any of the end game content any more.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Of course, because that's why most people are here - to be in Star Trek and experience the story. But endgame, its nothing but working to earn currency to buy endgame equipment.


    Though seems the camel's back is now broken. This is truly STO's NGE moment.
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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Excellent post. I've been trying to verbalize this for years, but you said it FAR better than I ever did. Now if only we could get someone to listen.

    Nah, it's rants like that which Geko has specifically stated are not constructive feedback and the primary reason why he dreads the forums.

    ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Hold on.

    I ... can give you some of those game as better but NOT ****ing Neverwinter because I played it, quit once ... tried again, quit again and its Cryptic game with all the Cryptic faults of STO plus several more.

    I think the poster means Neverwinter Nights, the classic game. Not Neverwinter Online, the Cryptic game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    This content has been removed.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ashlotte wrote: »
    Well, we'll miss you! :O Even though I never knew you I've seen you 'round lots.

    Won't let your well-thought out and quite truthful doom and gloom thread steal my joy though! I just bought Lifetime and regret nothing! :o

    And let's hope you don't end up regretting that decision. I'll still visit the forums every now and then and I will give this game one last chance come E2. But if it doesn't impress, I have better ways to waste money.
    hypl wrote: »
    The could explain why I've been suddenly playing more Skyrim lately. I also recently bought Divinity: Original Sin and having a freakin' blast with it.

    Funnily enough, this is true for me too.
    Of course, because that's why most people are here - to be in Star Trek and experience the story. But endgame, its nothing but working to earn currency to buy endgame equipment.


    Though seems the camel's back is now broken. This is truly STO's NGE moment.

    And then you have nothing to do with said endgame equipment.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    venkou wrote: »
    Grinding and timegates are the primary issues with 'Star Trek: Online". As I said within a previous thread, the combination of both mechanics have caused a problem. Players are doing repetitious actions, so they can fill buckets to trigger off timegates.

    Neurogaming: What’s Neuroscience and Ethics Got To Do With It?
    (Listen to what Game Developer Johnathan Blow says about F2P/MMO games.)

    "Free-to-Play" developers are not interested in engaging players with meaningful content. Instead of giving players an experience similar to 'sing-player rpgs', "Free-to-Play" developers make you 'buy' your rewards. "Star Trek: Online" does not have any meaningful endgame content, which will allow you to cognitively solve anything interesting. None.

    ...and, I think that is why I have stopped.

    Reputation and Fleet gear are grinding tools. Once you hit level fifty, the meaningful part of the game ends. Regardless about what you buy, grind, unlock, or craft, the endgame items you obtain have no other specific function. "Star Trek: Online's" endgame is a very-very-very hollow experience.

    Upon hitting the end of the level fifty missions, players do not:
    (1) save the world,
    (2) earn more ranks,
    (3) able to add more skills,
    (4) interact with NPCs in a modern rpg manner (BioWare/Obsidian Style),
    (5) negotiate for peace,
    (6) trigger off more wars,
    (7) etc...

    Players are burning through money, so they can obtain items to obtain items to obtain items, etc...

    Do you know what you get at the end?

    Nothing.

    While you burn through money to complete grinds, you never reach a meaningful and deep ending.

    Players do not solve galactic issues.
    Players do not solve world hunger.
    Players do not influence wars.
    Players do not come up with diplomatic solutions.
    Players do not solve issues with diplomacy.
    Players do not solve language barrier issues.
    Players do not put together genetic puzzles, which unlock neat little philosophical debates.
    Players do not discover new species.
    Players do not learn about new cultures.
    Players do not play a role on a holodeck, so they can escape from being trapped.
    Etc...

    Cryptic and 'F2P' developers are missing what is happening to single-player rpgs. As a result of using old school mechanics, Cryptic is missing the evoling nature of single-player games. "Skyrim", "Dragon Age", "SW: KOTOR", and "NWN" are superior games.

    If they think "Star Trek: Online" and 'F2P' are going to last, Cryptic will be stuck within a world of intense denial.

    Players are going to switch back to 'single-player' games, and there is nothing 'F2P' developers can do to stop the revolving door. Nothing.

    very nice post, i totally agree.

    I come from difficult games and with real goals, but STO seems to me (even if i like it), a game designed for teens. Personally i don't see the purpose of all the consoles (9/10 slots per ships!), all the weapons etc. I want more interactivity, real goals, just more FUN (more planets to explore, more contacts with species, a female gorn with a swimwear lol etc)
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    That one is equally as bad, I do know that game history ... it started back when Interplay had the D&D rights after Baldur's Gate 2 expansion was released and there was a falling out of BioWare and Interplay over royalties (this is when Interplay started to go to TRIBBLE) so BioWare had a game and a engine but they were stuck without a license, Atari had the license and negotiated with BioWare but the game definitely suffered from the uncertain times and some bizarre decisions.

    I would give NWN2 that was a tighter game but stuck with a dated engine, I still hold Baldur's Gate 2 as the superior D&D game.

    Pool of Radiance is still my favorite D&D computer game ever.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    And then you have nothing to do with said endgame equipment.

    Nothing to do now with it. :rolleyes:
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    gurugeorge wrote: »
    I think what you're missing is the fact that f2p games, while not deep in the sense that older MMOs were, are still sufficiently entertaining to dip in and out of.

    IOW, player retention isn't such a big concern for f2p as it is for subscription MMOs. They don't need to emphasize the design of things that will keep people addicted for long periods. All they need to do is to ensure that, if you like the theme (lore), then it's fun enough to come back to now and then, spend a bit of time, and spend a bit of money.

    Something like STO's endgame grind is perfect for the casual player who likes the Star Trek theme, and enjoys playing STO in bursts. Since STO launched, my first honeymoon lasted a month or so, then I got bored with the game, then a couple of months afterwards I had another burst of enthusiasm for a few weeks, dropped it again, picked it up again, dropped it again, etc., etc. By now, I've "accidentally" accumulated all the reps and rep gear, just by playing the game in bursts like that.

    So for me, it's never been a grind, because I've never tried to live in STO 24/7.

    And this is the only MMO (apart from my first) in which I've been able to accumulate endgame gear - in this case, just by picking it up and putting it down now and then, rather than being hooked 24/7 and unable to stop playing (as I was in my first MMO).

    Now I agree it would have been preferable if STO had been a rich, deep MMO with enough to keep people occupied so they can play it 24/7 (like WoW or EVE); but what STO is, is a game that's fun in bursts, and fun enough that one has a hankering to play it now and then, and have fun.

    Ideally, the game should be able to cater to both parties - "livers-in" and casuals. I actually wouldn't be surprised if X2 brings in some deeper gameplay to keep more hardcore players occupied - it's about that time. But I think once the transition to f2p was decided, the focus wouldn't have been on that, it would have been on having something to entertain casual players whenever they do come back to pay a game that, after all, is always here, and always Star Trek (at least, the most Star Trek you can get anywhere in multiplayer gaming that's graphically up to date).

    The most precise review which illustrates the pros and cons of this game, whose content seems more designed for the casual light players.
    P58WJe7.jpg


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