His point is with out the magik of Tech doffs... that is how you keep Faw up all the time... that is how you get 2 copies of RSP.
I am currious now though... with out A2B how would you fix that build ?
I wouldn't fix that build for pvp. I'd go in a such a completely different direction as to make what I would do with it irrelevant to this discussion. It would probably have a2s though, because why wouldn't you hit a2s every 15s with full aux if you didn't have a2b?
for PvE though, I'd probably use 2xfaw1 or one copy of faw1 and one copy of faw2, but I'd have to give it more thought to put a whole build together and real life calls.
TT1, FAW1, FAW2, APB2, EPtW1, ET1, A2S1, EPtS2, RSP2, RSP3, HE1, ST2. 3x DCE+Fab Eng+2xZemok (will require close attention to TT uptime and cooldown, probably a lot of preemptive RSP use needed)
Just a couple of examples of the top of my head. Personally I wouldn't bother with dual RSP anyway, with EPtS3 probably not even with a single copy... Nor with the Avenger for that matter, I much prefer the Galor Although I suppose I am spoiled by my Galor's shield mod, so that is something to take into account. To be honest, I wouldn't run any of those builds because I don't like them, and for PvE I would set it up differently altogether. I don't PvP with A2B cruisers anyway, I use a Norgh instead, which happens to be A2B'ed (TT1, BO2, CRF2, APO3, ET1, EPtE1, A2B1, A2B1, EPtS3, DEM2/RSP2 depending on the way the scales tip in kerrat, TB1, ST2. Much more enjoyable to fly then a cruiser albeit less effective then a non A2B build. It was cheap to setup though, and I'm having fun with it. If I where to run a PvP oriented FAW A2B Avenger, I'd probably go for TT1, TS1, FAW2, APO1, ET1, EPtW1, A2B1, A2B1, EPtS3, DEM3/RSP3 (DEM when teamed with friends, RSP for solo or puggin) HE1, ST2. Swap TS1 for FAW1 and FAW2 for APD1 if you want additional tankyness. Regardless, I still wonder if it is fair to call A2B the problem with regard to cruisers. While A2B contributes to beam DPS by means of overcap, that still seems more of a beam issue then an actual A2B issue. Kinda ironic when you consider that FAW is still underperforming, purely from a mechanics point of view. Personally I consider A2B to be a means to an end, it is relatively cheap (B'Tran), it performs relatively well, and it is easy to understand for newcomers. Yet it is not an end all-fix all solution. You can make ships that do more DPS without A2B, you can make ships that are tankier without A2B. I agree that it is hard to replicate the exact properties of an A2B build without running it, but doesn't that make it a valuable addition to the game? It fills the gap between low DPS high survivability cruisers and high DPS low survivability ones. Just something to contemplate upon for the people writing it off, hopefully.
Perhaps that is where the aversion to A2B for so many PvP'ers and high end DPS'ers lies in, A2B is a bit of a go inbetween, whereas most serious PvP'ers and DPS'ers are focussed on min/max by nature. Water and oil.
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
3 Damage Control Engineers, 2 Developmental Lab-ST cooldown, 1 AtD
Solid enough... of course compared to a A2B boat... you have omega half as often and half the time you are doing no dmg with faw 1 up. You have no dem bleed dmg either... and you also don't have an rsp at all never mind one ever 1 min.
Not saying the build is bad... just saying comapred to a A2B boat it has less dps and less tank. Don't get me wrong Sif 3 is a great heal... but it won't match having RSP 1/3 of the time.
Regardless, I still wonder if it is fair to call A2B the problem with regard to cruisers. While A2B contributes to beam DPS by means of overcap, that still seems more of a beam issue then an actual A2B issue. Kinda ironic when you consider that FAW is still underperforming, purely from a mechanics point of view. Personally I consider A2B to be a means to an end, it is relatively cheap (B'Tran), it performs relatively well, and it is easy to understand for newcomers. Yet it is not an end all-fix all solution. You can make ships that do more DPS without A2B, you can make ships that are tankier without A2B. I agree that it is hard to replicate the exact properties of an A2B build without running it, but doesn't that make it a valuable addition to the game? It fills the gap between low DPS high survivability cruisers and high DPS low survivability ones. Just something to contemplate upon for the people writing it off, hopefully.
You can only do more dps without using a2b if it is a superfast run with everyone doing high dps and spamming beta and meshweavers so the STF doesn't take much longer then a minute. Its not so much DPS as its a 1 minute burst of damage. Anything taking longer the a2b ship will start to do more as its taking advantage of having DEM and attack patterns up more. Also the non-a2b scims that can do that crazy 50k-80k dps aren't built to be survivable enough outside of those controlled situations that allow 1 min runs. It would die a lot more then a2b ships on STFs that take a normal amount of time.
I've been doing it for years w/Sc Brel and later Hanom/Mirror Hanom. Way to avoid how you were flat out wrong empirically btw.
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Solid enough... of course compared to a A2B boat... you have omega half as often and half the time you are doing no dmg with faw 1 up. You have no dem bleed dmg either... and you also don't have an rsp at all never mind one ever 1 min.
Not saying the build is bad... just saying comapred to a A2B boat it has less dps and less tank. Don't get me wrong Sif 3 is a great heal... but it won't match having RSP 1/3 of the time.
Eh, was just off the top of my head. Whenever I see Tac slots, I automatically think Romulan Tac with Superior Operative. And also the Aux Config-Off thrown in.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
Eh, was just off the top of my head. Whenever I see Tac slots, I automatically think Romulan Tac with Superior Operative. And also the Aux Config-Off thrown in.
Ya good point... so many things are a bit sideways with the game. Put a full boat of rom boffs to work and everything always gets better.
After looking at some of the new traits coming with crafting - again - just like the 3 tech doffs there is no consistency in this game:
look at this as an example:
how the R&D Traits work:
Beams ◦On activating Beam skill, gain 2% Beam damage for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Cannons ◦On activating Cannon skill, gain +1 Turn Rate, +1 Inertia for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Projectiles ◦Your Torpedoes and Mines penetrate an extra 10% of your targets shields
So Beam and cannonscots are not powerful enough that they need a 3x stacked trait?
Like escorts really need an extra +3 turn and +3 inertia so they are virtually untouchable??
But in the Torp area - they give a 10% penetration boost but it would be OP if it stacked to 3 as well? I mean people have so much kinetic resist these days - and heck with +3 turn and +3 inertia will torps even ever hit some escorts with EPtE??
There is just no logic in what they are doing.
They need to seriously add some major diminishing returns to all doffs and traits that stack.
After looking at some of the new traits coming with crafting - again - just like the 3 tech doffs there is no consistency in this game:
look at this as an example:
how the R&D Traits work:
Beams ◦On activating Beam skill, gain 2% Beam damage for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Cannons ◦On activating Cannon skill, gain +1 Turn Rate, +1 Inertia for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Projectiles ◦Your Torpedoes and Mines penetrate an extra 10% of your targets shields
So Beam and cannonscots are not powerful enough that they need a 3x stacked trait?
Like escorts really need an extra +3 turn and +3 inertia so they are virtually untouchable??
But in the Torp area - they give a 10% penetration boost but it would be OP if it stacked to 3 as well? I mean people have so much kinetic resist these days - and heck with +3 turn and +3 inertia will torps even ever hit some escorts with EPtE??
There is just no logic in what they are doing.
They need to seriously add some major diminishing returns to all doffs and traits that stack.
Well never mind sideways. The devs have no idea how there own game works is the real issue. I mean even the mostnew player can look at that and ask the obvious. How the heck do you activate 3 cannon or beam skills in 20s. lol
They won't be stacking either.
To be honest though... even +10% torp pen is going to be pretty much OP. As it is my torp boats are very much viable right now with shearing alone. Give me 10% more shield pen which will really be 14% more with shearing... yes its going to get pretty darn good pretty fast. I think 30% bonus pen would be pretty crazy. 20% (cause cryptic doesn't know how things work it seems) bonus would be pretty nuts... it would basicly be 28% bonus dmg with shearing.
Just wait I'll call it now a couple weeks after this crafting trait hits you will see a rash of torp boats.
I'll ignore some hilarious downplaying and even funnier math and logic that is going on here.
Let me just say this.
A2B can be and it is used to completely break game mechanics and disrupt gameplay.
that is done only by people that know what a2b really can do though and are willing to exploit it.
And no, i'm not talking about beamFAW dual a2b cruisers.
And yes it is only because you can stack technicians.
And yes it is only because it's a luitenant BOFF skill.
Simplest solution ever for A2B is to make it Ltcmdr skill.
Or to be able to use just one technician.
BTW
Bonus penetration and shearing on torpedos means nothing.
If you use torpedos correctly, you don't need extra shearing or penetration to kill the target, and it won't help you to kill easier if you do use it.
Bonus penetration and shearing on torpedos means nothing.
If you use torpedos correctly, you don't need extra shearing or penetration to kill the target, and it won't help you to kill easier if you do use it.
Not the way I see it at all. No of course slapping a torp on an escort and just firing it off when ever on auto... having 80% sheering and 50% pen wouldn't make any difference it would suck.
However extra pen when you have a proper torp boat hitting multiple targets as a harasment tactic works extremely well already. Keeping an entire team cross healing like mad leads to kills... and team rolls in premade matches. Its why many premades run torpedo sci ships. The new trait will for sure make those builds more effective. Which is why I countered marks thoughts about stacking on the trait. IMO it would lead to a new heavy torp meta. It would be like faw... no it won't focus one person down... but have 2-3 people on a team spamming torps it starts to get really hard to play against. More pen in combo with shearing will only make that a very good option.
Of course as a torp lover and booster... sure let it stack to 30%... not sure there are enough good teams left in the game to realize its potential anymore.
I don't know... But yes, there are other ways to play beside vaping, I think?
But of course there are other ways.
In fact in new special vid that is coming out in few days
i made a segment Old vs New School. Where I put my Dyson vs my Ar'kif.
So yeah, both kill, both kill fast, and the only difference is in numbers and criticals. Dyson can kill up to 5 guys in 10 secs, or kill a tank through RSP, Ar'kif can kill 2-3max but in 3 secs(with tetryon setup i think it would be able to also wipeout a team but it would probably suck for a style i go for) and that is not a style where you run and come back on alpha.
But I don't consider any of them a vaper. only my thalaron scimi you could call half-vaper.
i meant using HY, not spamming TS for procs.
Even when i use TS( which is often) I set up to kill with it, not to go for proc spam.
My all ships are "torpedo boats" since always. But they all have maximum 2 torpedos and no mines(stopped using mines because of torp/beam/tbr/pets and GW spam)
But yeah, if you exaggerate it like that, having shield pen of 80%, even to 40% on some torps it would completely break the game.
Comments
I wouldn't fix that build for pvp. I'd go in a such a completely different direction as to make what I would do with it irrelevant to this discussion. It would probably have a2s though, because why wouldn't you hit a2s every 15s with full aux if you didn't have a2b?
for PvE though, I'd probably use 2xfaw1 or one copy of faw1 and one copy of faw2, but I'd have to give it more thought to put a whole build together and real life calls.
Without A2B max faw uptime with dual RSP?
TT1, TT1, FAW2, FAW3, EPtW1, ET1, A2S1, EPtS2, RSP2, RSP3, HE1, ST2. 3x DCE+Fab Eng+whatever
TT1, TT1, FAW2, FAW3, EPtW1, ET1, A2S1, RSP1, EPtS3, RSP3, HE1, ST2. 3x DCE+Fab Eng+whatever
TT1, TT1, FAW2, FAW3, EPtW1,EPtS1, A2S1, DEM1, RSP2, RSP3, HE1, ST2. 3x DCE+Fab Eng+whatever
TT1, FAW1, FAW2, APB2, EPtW1, ET1, A2S1, EPtS2, RSP2, RSP3, HE1, ST2. 3x DCE+Fab Eng+2xZemok (will require close attention to TT uptime and cooldown, probably a lot of preemptive RSP use needed)
TT1, FAW1, FAW2, APB2, EPtW1, EPtW1, EPtS2, EPtS2, RSP2, RSP3, HE1, ST2. 2xZemok+Fab Eng+TT conn officers
Just a couple of examples of the top of my head. Personally I wouldn't bother with dual RSP anyway, with EPtS3 probably not even with a single copy... Nor with the Avenger for that matter, I much prefer the Galor
Perhaps that is where the aversion to A2B for so many PvP'ers and high end DPS'ers lies in, A2B is a bit of a go inbetween, whereas most serious PvP'ers and DPS'ers are focussed on min/max by nature. Water and oil.
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Solid enough... of course compared to a A2B boat... you have omega half as often and half the time you are doing no dmg with faw 1 up. You have no dem bleed dmg either... and you also don't have an rsp at all never mind one ever 1 min.
Not saying the build is bad... just saying comapred to a A2B boat it has less dps and less tank. Don't get me wrong Sif 3 is a great heal... but it won't match having RSP 1/3 of the time.
You can only do more dps without using a2b if it is a superfast run with everyone doing high dps and spamming beta and meshweavers so the STF doesn't take much longer then a minute. Its not so much DPS as its a 1 minute burst of damage. Anything taking longer the a2b ship will start to do more as its taking advantage of having DEM and attack patterns up more. Also the non-a2b scims that can do that crazy 50k-80k dps aren't built to be survivable enough outside of those controlled situations that allow 1 min runs. It would die a lot more then a2b ships on STFs that take a normal amount of time.
I've been doing it for years w/Sc Brel and later Hanom/Mirror Hanom. Way to avoid how you were flat out wrong empirically btw.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Eh, was just off the top of my head. Whenever I see Tac slots, I automatically think Romulan Tac with Superior Operative. And also the Aux Config-Off thrown in.
Ya good point... so many things are a bit sideways with the game. Put a full boat of rom boffs to work and everything always gets better.
Talk about sideways -
I revived my thread on doff and trait stacking:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1145291
After looking at some of the new traits coming with crafting - again - just like the 3 tech doffs there is no consistency in this game:
look at this as an example:
how the R&D Traits work:
Beams ◦On activating Beam skill, gain 2% Beam damage for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Cannons ◦On activating Cannon skill, gain +1 Turn Rate, +1 Inertia for 20 sec. Stacks x3.
Projectiles ◦Your Torpedoes and Mines penetrate an extra 10% of your targets shields
So Beam and cannonscots are not powerful enough that they need a 3x stacked trait?
Like escorts really need an extra +3 turn and +3 inertia so they are virtually untouchable??
But in the Torp area - they give a 10% penetration boost but it would be OP if it stacked to 3 as well? I mean people have so much kinetic resist these days - and heck with +3 turn and +3 inertia will torps even ever hit some escorts with EPtE??
There is just no logic in what they are doing.
They need to seriously add some major diminishing returns to all doffs and traits that stack.
Well never mind sideways. The devs have no idea how there own game works is the real issue. I mean even the mostnew player can look at that and ask the obvious. How the heck do you activate 3 cannon or beam skills in 20s. lol
They won't be stacking either.
To be honest though... even +10% torp pen is going to be pretty much OP. As it is my torp boats are very much viable right now with shearing alone. Give me 10% more shield pen which will really be 14% more with shearing... yes its going to get pretty darn good pretty fast. I think 30% bonus pen would be pretty crazy. 20% (cause cryptic doesn't know how things work it seems) bonus would be pretty nuts... it would basicly be 28% bonus dmg with shearing.
Just wait I'll call it now a couple weeks after this crafting trait hits you will see a rash of torp boats.
Let me just say this.
A2B can be and it is used to completely break game mechanics and disrupt gameplay.
that is done only by people that know what a2b really can do though and are willing to exploit it.
And no, i'm not talking about beamFAW dual a2b cruisers.
And yes it is only because you can stack technicians.
And yes it is only because it's a luitenant BOFF skill.
Simplest solution ever for A2B is to make it Ltcmdr skill.
Or to be able to use just one technician.
BTW
Bonus penetration and shearing on torpedos means nothing.
If you use torpedos correctly, you don't need extra shearing or penetration to kill the target, and it won't help you to kill easier if you do use it.
Guaranteed.
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Not the way I see it at all. No of course slapping a torp on an escort and just firing it off when ever on auto... having 80% sheering and 50% pen wouldn't make any difference it would suck.
However extra pen when you have a proper torp boat hitting multiple targets as a harasment tactic works extremely well already. Keeping an entire team cross healing like mad leads to kills... and team rolls in premade matches. Its why many premades run torpedo sci ships. The new trait will for sure make those builds more effective. Which is why I countered marks thoughts about stacking on the trait. IMO it would lead to a new heavy torp meta. It would be like faw... no it won't focus one person down... but have 2-3 people on a team spamming torps it starts to get really hard to play against. More pen in combo with shearing will only make that a very good option.
Of course as a torp lover and booster... sure let it stack to 30%... not sure there are enough good teams left in the game to realize its potential anymore.
But of course there are other ways.
In fact in new special vid that is coming out in few days
i made a segment Old vs New School. Where I put my Dyson vs my Ar'kif.
So yeah, both kill, both kill fast, and the only difference is in numbers and criticals. Dyson can kill up to 5 guys in 10 secs, or kill a tank through RSP, Ar'kif can kill 2-3max but in 3 secs(with tetryon setup i think it would be able to also wipeout a team but it would probably suck for a style i go for) and that is not a style where you run and come back on alpha.
But I don't consider any of them a vaper. only my thalaron scimi you could call half-vaper.
i meant using HY, not spamming TS for procs.
Even when i use TS( which is often) I set up to kill with it, not to go for proc spam.
My all ships are "torpedo boats" since always. But they all have maximum 2 torpedos and no mines(stopped using mines because of torp/beam/tbr/pets and GW spam)
But yeah, if you exaggerate it like that, having shield pen of 80%, even to 40% on some torps it would completely break the game.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers