In universe possible explanation:
Science ships weren't designed for heavy combat like escorts. They were designed for studying anomalies and stuff. They are armed because its necessary to have weapons to defend themselves with.
My 2 ECs:
Sci ships can do more than a cruiser and escort. Escorts shoot things. And they do it well. Cruisers can take hits, and for the most part do it well. Sci ships control and frak with the enemy. And they do that well. Got someone who just gave themselves multiple buffs? DEBUFF! VIRAL MATRIX! TYKEN'S RIFT! GRAV WELL!
You have to go completely overboard and overspecialized in order for any of those boff abilities to do anything. Even then, with the changes to TT/ST/ET, most players players can clear subnukes and drains easily.
You have to go completely overboard and overspecialized in order for any of those boff abilities to do anything. Even then, with the changes to TT/ST/ET, most players players can clear subnukes and drains easily.
QFT 110%!
Between the Teams, PH, and APO you can pretty much remove any debuff Sci can throw at you. Most of which are commonly used abilities...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
You have to go completely overboard and overspecialized in order for any of those boff abilities to do anything. Even then, with the changes to TT/ST/ET, most players players can clear subnukes and drains easily.
Oh come on now. lol
I am pretty sure your flying a drain pallisade.
If you are then you are just laying it on.
I know when I fly my drianing pall people can't manage to keep there shields up for some reason... and when they manage to get the power back they notice I have sucked half or more of there shielding away while there power was out.
In PvE my draining Pal turns cubes shields off in about 3s flat and lands 30k critting photons against there hull.
I think you and I both know that sci sci is in about the best place it has ever been... Sci team sure it clears subnukes... but its not hard to nuke someone 5s after there sci team buff falls off... ensuring that they aren't getting it cleared with out help. It is super easy to load a a nice combo of options on a science ship and just watch someones buffs and hit them at the right times.
I know when I fly my drianing pall people can't manage to keep there shields up for some reason... and when they manage to get the power back they notice I have sucked half or more of there shielding away while there power was out.
In PvE my draining Pal turns cubes shields off in about 3s flat and lands 30k critting photons against there hull.
I think you and I both know that sci sci is in about the best place it has ever been... Sci team sure it clears subnukes... but its not hard to nuke someone 5s after there sci team buff falls off... ensuring that they aren't getting it cleared with out help. It is super easy to load a a nice combo of options on a science ship and just watch someones buffs and hit them at the right times.
So you'll get one nuke off, I'll have many more ST uses by the time your nuke cools down...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
So you'll get one nuke off, I'll have many more ST uses by the time your nuke cools down...
No you won't because... well you'll be dead.
You only need one nuke to kill someone.
Even if you have ST at 15s I don't really care... I will force you to use your ST and then I will nuke you... I will force you to use your hazards then I will wait it out or nuke you which ever and before you know you messed up your power levels with be ZERO ZERO ZERO ZERO... and my spread 3 torps will be on the way. Night night.
I know when I fly my draining pall people can't manage to keep there shields up for some reason... and when they manage to get the power back they notice I have sucked half or more of there shielding away while there power was out.
In PvE my draining Pal turns cubes shields off in about 3s flat and lands 30k critting photons against there hull.
I think you and I both know that sci sci is in about the best place it has ever been... Sci team sure it clears subnukes... but its not hard to nuke someone 5s after there sci team buff falls off... ensuring that they aren't getting it cleared with out help. It is super easy to load a a nice combo of options on a science ship and just watch someones buffs and hit them at the right times.
Yes, in PvE I can run circles around anything and suck tac cubes' shields dry. PvE is easy.
PvP is a whole other monster. You can watch the buffs all you want, most players I come across keep that ST saved until a subnuke hits them.
Yes, in PvE I can run circles around anything and suck tac cubes' shields dry. PvE is easy.
PvP is a whole other monster. You can watch the buffs all you want, most players I come across keep that ST saved until a subnuke hits them.
So save them for last. Kill the team around them and then they die. At least thats the way pugs normaly go that I have seen.
In premades its very easy to drain people. Stop worrying about the zipply little escort getting 5 hazards all the time... and running though the drain pools. Wait for the other guys silly spider carrier to catch a spike... then park on there rump and drain them to zilch. Sure perhaps you won't kill him... while there busy your team should be able to start rolling them off.
One sci can turn a match... 2 sci can dominate it... 3 or more and the other guys are likely to warp.
No I'm sorry sci is in a great place right now... and drain sci is one of the better options. Sci teams for nukes lol Last I checked sci team did not return buffs... removing one escorts ability to use GDF or Alpha all the time is pure gold in pvp.
Because Cryptic hit science with the nerfbat, without refunding them what they took away previously as compensation.
this. a competent sci ship in Beta could stop any ship in it's tracks strip it's shield and waltz over and pulverize it without braking a sweat. Cryptic nerfed to to hades and now we are stuck with very large very expensive doormats
is this sto or d@d lol in the aft I prefer hunter archer lol
what is balance in the real world should we say your tanks are biger so for this war you can only use a 70 mm gun and we will balance by taking a 120 mm bull puckies balance is only for pvp and that is do to whiners, example my atrox carrier with ultra rare delta fighters fleet gear all around, in a pvp vs a fighter ya right I,m wooped fast that is what balance does and that is pvp you take a carrier in real world against a single fighter who wins, stop the nerfing and balancing that is why players leave and go to other games all the nerfing it is what it is I got a carrier I want my guns back and consols you canot balance a carrier so a fighter can woop it
I love how many people like to complain about science ships who clearly don't fly them.
Science ships have always had 3/3... and that is all they need more would be op honestly.
Nothing in this game is more powerful then a proper Sci Sci.
actually, 2 more weapons slots would not be that much of a boost to a sci ship, since it still only has 2 tac consoles, and you still have to put the pointy end fairly toward the target to use the sci abilities. a 4/3 sci shipw ould be nice, 4 forward, a 360 ap turret and KCB, and something nasty like a nice powerful torpedo to keep escorts behind honest
actually, 2 more weapons slots would not be that much of a boost to a sci ship, since it still only has 2 tac consoles, and you still have to put the pointy end fairly toward the target to use the sci abilities. a 4/3 sci shipw ould be nice, 4 forward, a 360 ap turret and KCB, and something nasty like a nice powerful torpedo to keep escorts behind honest
I don't think its needed... your right it wouldn't be a major boost. The main issue I see is some min maxers like myself would take a sci ship with 4 forward weapons slots and completely destroy everything else by a pretty good margin. As it is my sci ship pretty much has its way in Pug PvP... and drives other teams nuts in Team pvp when I can synergize with another sci. In PvE my sci ship has argo 75% of the time even with 4-5 -threat consoles on.
Having said that... I do like your rear weapon slot idea.
Perhaps Science ships really should be the mirror of the escort class.
3 fore and 4 rear... might be an interesting addition to the science ship class.
I love how many people like to complain about science ships who clearly don't fly them.
Science ships have always had 3/3... and that is all they need more would be op honestly.
Nothing in this game is more powerful then a proper Sci Sci.
I have gone up against some extremely deadly Sci toons in Wells temporal ships in PvP - and even worse - a couple of them working together - look out!!
But outside some niche builds for PvP - Sci/Sci is really meh - for this PvE DPS race game.
It would be nice if at the very least they had a additional fore and possibly rear weapon slot that was designated as a launcher mount or something, designed primarily to launch probe's (think a torp with no damage but that creates rifts or other sci aoe effects on impact that then do whatever) but also capable of fitting torpedo or mine's.
It would be nice if at the very least they had a additional fore and possibly rear weapon slot that was designated as a launcher mount or something, designed primarily to launch probe's (think a torp with no damage but that creates rifts or other sci aoe effects on impact that then do whatever) but also capable of fitting torpedo or mine's.
Well I for sure would love the Vesta to get 4 foreward guns - 4x Aux cannons would be sweet!!
But if Al Rivera was to do that as part of the "buff" he talked about for the Vesta - the cries of OP would be loud here on the forums. Of course he could just do it to troll some people and for the lutz!
science ships are meant to do things other then deal top weapons damage. like make it easier for ships with more weapons to kill you.
tada! the reason ladies and gentlemen. not terribly applicable in pve though, sci ships excel in 5 v5 environments, not you alone vs 100 npcs. this is why you may be confused, and think sci is underpowered
yesterday a sci ship with just TR drained me literally to 0/0/0/0, id say right now sci is working as intended, plus.
Sci ships may do just fine; but that doesn't alter the fact that cruisers and escorts gain more moving from T4 to T5 than science ships do.
That means T5 science ships are inferior vessels compared to the other two. Not just balanced differently; actually inferior.
By that logic you could also say that T1 through T4 Science Vessels are just better then Escorts and Cruisers, thus they get less moving from T4 to T5 to balance that out.
The problem is not the Science Vessels. The problem is that all end-game objectives involve pew-pewing something to death as quickly as possible to achieve the most Dilthium per minute, as well as optional timed rewards. Since you do not need buffs or debuffs at end-game the Science Vessel just comes up seeming weaker due to the DPS restrictions.
The only way for Science Vessels to really work is to either implement the Trinity - thus making buffs and debuffs necessary to defeat end-game foes - or remove Class restrictions entirely and just make all ships DPS monsters.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The problem is not the Science Vessels. The problem is that all end-game objectives involve pew-pewing something to death as quickly as possible to achieve the most Dilthium per minute, as well as optional timed rewards. Since you do not need buffs or debuffs at end-game the Science Vessel just comes up seeming weaker due to the DPS restrictions.
It's weird, but reading that statement kind of got me thinking that it's both at the same time. You're right that the end-game is designed in a way that negates the "bonuses" that science vessels traded an extra weapon slot for.
But at the same time, the science vessels are still making a tradeoff so the other person is right that it's an inferior ship for this game.*
It's like being in two places at the same time!
Trippy.
In any event, I don't see the devs doing much at all to change that. Cryptic has never really been adept at making changes to its end-game, and the changes they have made haven't had any real focus or impact on the issue you mention in terms of balance or gameplay like that.
* Caveat ... I'm not saying Science ships are unplayable. Just that the poster is right in what they are saying about science ships. To better explain that, I feel the game has set its bar pretty low in being able to successfully complete objectives in this game, so that inferior ships can still be very very playable. Doesn't change their inferiority, it just hides it a bit. If that makes any sense. It's like, you can complete STFs in T1 ships. So science ships aren't going to make you lose a mission. It's just you'll complete that mission quicker or easier in a different ship most of the time because the content, as Cosmic pointed out, is weighted toward pew pew.
In universe possible explanation:
Science ships weren't designed for heavy combat like escorts. They were designed for studying anomalies and stuff. They are armed because its necessary to have weapons to defend themselves with.
My 2 ECs:
Sci ships can do more than a cruiser and escort. Escorts shoot things. And they do it well. Cruisers can take hits, and for the most part do it well. Sci ships control and frak with the enemy. And they do that well. Got someone who just gave themselves multiple buffs? DEBUFF! VIRAL MATRIX! TYKEN'S RIFT! GRAV WELL!
yes so all science ships should get 50% particles from anomalies
yes so all science ships should get 50% particles from anomalies
They all get Sensor Ann (ever Tykens rift a target with a 6 stack of sensor ann... in pve they loose shields for pretty much the duration of the skill in PvP people will be cursing which means it works well)... They all get free target subsystem attacks. They all get a boost to sensors.
They don't need a boost to particle.
Sci captains however DO get a massive boost to particle in the form of the Conversion of Energy trait. Its pretty easy to keep a constant 3 stack of COE which = a 30% dmg boost to all exotic. (so its pretty much like adding a free 300 points of particle gen for free)
I have no idea what anyone in this thread is talking about, all these acronyms have gone way over my head.. all I know is when I'm playing my science character in my vesta I yell pew pew and hit the buttons and I kill things, and sometimes I have to hit other buttons or they kill me
Seriously though, my Sci/Vesta seems to be doing fine in most pve content so far, although I'm still on the look out for a decent generic skill spec, people talk about them but rarely link them.
By that logic you could also say that T1 through T4 Science Vessels are just better then Escorts and Cruisers, thus they get less moving from T4 to T5 to balance that out.
The problem is not the Science Vessels. The problem is that all end-game objectives involve pew-pewing something to death as quickly as possible to achieve the most Dilthium per minute, as well as optional timed rewards. Since you do not need buffs or debuffs at end-game the Science Vessel just comes up seeming weaker due to the DPS restrictions.
The only way for Science Vessels to really work is to either implement the Trinity - thus making buffs and debuffs necessary to defeat end-game foes - or remove Class restrictions entirely and just make all ships DPS monsters.
I do indeed think that at some lower tiers, picking a science vessel is better than taking a cruiser. Tier 2 comes to mind. (Escorts still have Dual Cannons going for them, they are a big damage boost, and particularly at low tiers, your raw damage tends to be more important than the buffs you have.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Seriously though, my Sci/Vesta seems to be doing fine in most pve content so far, although I'm still on the look out for a decent generic skill spec, people talk about them but rarely link them.
Sci is a hard class to create a perfect general spec for. There are a lot of required skill points to min max sci skills... and of course if you want to be able to train things.
Having said that... I use aprox. this type of spec on most of my sci toons.
Lets me use energy or torps or a combo... gives me a strong sensor scan and detection... covers flow and prtg skills. I find I can mostly get enough Grav Gen points from gear that I really don't need to spec it. (the psychological warfare trait from the current box gives you all the pull you need anyway). Power levels should be as good as they will get basicly. You don't need more then 6 in any of the power specs and warp core. I don't often bother with hull armors or threat spec... I find with the fleet combo armors and things like Aux to Damp Matter anti matter doffs I hardly ever need the extra small bit of armour.
Of course tweek it out yourself and come up with something that will cover off your main playstyles nad you will find you very rarely need to worry about respecs. http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm
That is a great resource if your are curious about exact effects of a point added or shaved here and there.
Because Science ships get to use space magic powers.
They should actually have no weapons and have to mount their powers in slots instead.
Not to mention the 4 free Beam Target TACTICAL?! powers every sci ship gets.
I'm convinced the dev behind the sci ships in STO overloaded his favorite ship type unfairly, probably a Voyager fan.
Not to even get into the ridiculousness of a space mage type in STO just because they had to copy the tired old MMO trope from WoW of fighter, thief and mage.
Be happy there even is a sci class in STO because a more dedicated to the IP development team would never have included it.
Comments
You have to go completely overboard and overspecialized in order for any of those boff abilities to do anything. Even then, with the changes to TT/ST/ET, most players players can clear subnukes and drains easily.
QFT 110%!
Between the Teams, PH, and APO you can pretty much remove any debuff Sci can throw at you. Most of which are commonly used abilities...
Oh come on now. lol
I am pretty sure your flying a drain pallisade.
If you are then you are just laying it on.
I know when I fly my drianing pall people can't manage to keep there shields up for some reason... and when they manage to get the power back they notice I have sucked half or more of there shielding away while there power was out.
In PvE my draining Pal turns cubes shields off in about 3s flat and lands 30k critting photons against there hull.
I think you and I both know that sci sci is in about the best place it has ever been... Sci team sure it clears subnukes... but its not hard to nuke someone 5s after there sci team buff falls off... ensuring that they aren't getting it cleared with out help. It is super easy to load a a nice combo of options on a science ship and just watch someones buffs and hit them at the right times.
So you'll get one nuke off, I'll have many more ST uses by the time your nuke cools down...
No you won't because... well you'll be dead.
You only need one nuke to kill someone.
Even if you have ST at 15s I don't really care... I will force you to use your ST and then I will nuke you... I will force you to use your hazards then I will wait it out or nuke you which ever and before you know you messed up your power levels with be ZERO ZERO ZERO ZERO... and my spread 3 torps will be on the way. Night night.
Yes, in PvE I can run circles around anything and suck tac cubes' shields dry. PvE is easy.
PvP is a whole other monster. You can watch the buffs all you want, most players I come across keep that ST saved until a subnuke hits them.
So save them for last. Kill the team around them and then they die. At least thats the way pugs normaly go that I have seen.
In premades its very easy to drain people. Stop worrying about the zipply little escort getting 5 hazards all the time... and running though the drain pools.
One sci can turn a match... 2 sci can dominate it... 3 or more and the other guys are likely to warp.
No I'm sorry sci is in a great place right now... and drain sci is one of the better options. Sci teams for nukes lol Last I checked sci team did not return buffs... removing one escorts ability to use GDF or Alpha all the time is pure gold in pvp.
this. a competent sci ship in Beta could stop any ship in it's tracks strip it's shield and waltz over and pulverize it without braking a sweat. Cryptic nerfed to to hades and now we are stuck with very large very expensive doormats
honestly, the vesta should be the last to get it due to the hangar.
how a 4/3 Intrepid with aux beam arrays.....
what is balance in the real world should we say your tanks are biger so for this war you can only use a 70 mm gun and we will balance by taking a 120 mm bull puckies balance is only for pvp and that is do to whiners, example my atrox carrier with ultra rare delta fighters fleet gear all around, in a pvp vs a fighter ya right I,m wooped fast that is what balance does and that is pvp you take a carrier in real world against a single fighter who wins, stop the nerfing and balancing that is why players leave and go to other games all the nerfing it is what it is I got a carrier I want my guns back and consols you canot balance a carrier so a fighter can woop it
actually, 2 more weapons slots would not be that much of a boost to a sci ship, since it still only has 2 tac consoles, and you still have to put the pointy end fairly toward the target to use the sci abilities. a 4/3 sci shipw ould be nice, 4 forward, a 360 ap turret and KCB, and something nasty like a nice powerful torpedo to keep escorts behind honest
I don't think its needed... your right it wouldn't be a major boost. The main issue I see is some min maxers like myself would take a sci ship with 4 forward weapons slots and completely destroy everything else by a pretty good margin. As it is my sci ship pretty much has its way in Pug PvP... and drives other teams nuts in Team pvp when I can synergize with another sci. In PvE my sci ship has argo 75% of the time even with 4-5 -threat consoles on.
Having said that... I do like your rear weapon slot idea.
Perhaps Science ships really should be the mirror of the escort class.
3 fore and 4 rear... might be an interesting addition to the science ship class.
I have gone up against some extremely deadly Sci toons in Wells temporal ships in PvP - and even worse - a couple of them working together - look out!!
But outside some niche builds for PvP - Sci/Sci is really meh - for this PvE DPS race game.
It would be nice if at the very least they had a additional fore and possibly rear weapon slot that was designated as a launcher mount or something, designed primarily to launch probe's (think a torp with no damage but that creates rifts or other sci aoe effects on impact that then do whatever) but also capable of fitting torpedo or mine's.
Well I for sure would love the Vesta to get 4 foreward guns - 4x Aux cannons would be sweet!!
But if Al Rivera was to do that as part of the "buff" he talked about for the Vesta - the cries of OP would be loud here on the forums. Of course he could just do it to troll some people and for the lutz!
tada! the reason ladies and gentlemen. not terribly applicable in pve though, sci ships excel in 5 v5 environments, not you alone vs 100 npcs. this is why you may be confused, and think sci is underpowered
yesterday a sci ship with just TR drained me literally to 0/0/0/0, id say right now sci is working as intended, plus.
That means T5 science ships are inferior vessels compared to the other two. Not just balanced differently; actually inferior.
The problem is not the Science Vessels. The problem is that all end-game objectives involve pew-pewing something to death as quickly as possible to achieve the most Dilthium per minute, as well as optional timed rewards. Since you do not need buffs or debuffs at end-game the Science Vessel just comes up seeming weaker due to the DPS restrictions.
The only way for Science Vessels to really work is to either implement the Trinity - thus making buffs and debuffs necessary to defeat end-game foes - or remove Class restrictions entirely and just make all ships DPS monsters.
It's weird, but reading that statement kind of got me thinking that it's both at the same time. You're right that the end-game is designed in a way that negates the "bonuses" that science vessels traded an extra weapon slot for.
But at the same time, the science vessels are still making a tradeoff so the other person is right that it's an inferior ship for this game.*
It's like being in two places at the same time!
Trippy.
In any event, I don't see the devs doing much at all to change that. Cryptic has never really been adept at making changes to its end-game, and the changes they have made haven't had any real focus or impact on the issue you mention in terms of balance or gameplay like that.
* Caveat ... I'm not saying Science ships are unplayable. Just that the poster is right in what they are saying about science ships. To better explain that, I feel the game has set its bar pretty low in being able to successfully complete objectives in this game, so that inferior ships can still be very very playable. Doesn't change their inferiority, it just hides it a bit. If that makes any sense. It's like, you can complete STFs in T1 ships. So science ships aren't going to make you lose a mission. It's just you'll complete that mission quicker or easier in a different ship most of the time because the content, as Cosmic pointed out, is weighted toward pew pew.
They all get Sensor Ann (ever Tykens rift a target with a 6 stack of sensor ann... in pve they loose shields for pretty much the duration of the skill in PvP people will be cursing which means it works well)... They all get free target subsystem attacks. They all get a boost to sensors.
They don't need a boost to particle.
Sci captains however DO get a massive boost to particle in the form of the Conversion of Energy trait. Its pretty easy to keep a constant 3 stack of COE which = a 30% dmg boost to all exotic. (so its pretty much like adding a free 300 points of particle gen for free)
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Seriously though, my Sci/Vesta seems to be doing fine in most pve content so far, although I'm still on the look out for a decent generic skill spec, people talk about them but rarely link them.
Sci is a hard class to create a perfect general spec for. There are a lot of required skill points to min max sci skills... and of course if you want to be able to train things.
Having said that... I use aprox. this type of spec on most of my sci toons.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=scigeneralspec_0
Lets me use energy or torps or a combo... gives me a strong sensor scan and detection... covers flow and prtg skills. I find I can mostly get enough Grav Gen points from gear that I really don't need to spec it. (the psychological warfare trait from the current box gives you all the pull you need anyway). Power levels should be as good as they will get basicly. You don't need more then 6 in any of the power specs and warp core. I don't often bother with hull armors or threat spec... I find with the fleet combo armors and things like Aux to Damp Matter anti matter doffs I hardly ever need the extra small bit of armour.
Of course tweek it out yourself and come up with something that will cover off your main playstyles nad you will find you very rarely need to worry about respecs.
http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm
That is a great resource if your are curious about exact effects of a point added or shaved here and there.
They should actually have no weapons and have to mount their powers in slots instead.
Not to mention the 4 free Beam Target TACTICAL?! powers every sci ship gets.
I'm convinced the dev behind the sci ships in STO overloaded his favorite ship type unfairly, probably a Voyager fan.
Not to even get into the ridiculousness of a space mage type in STO just because they had to copy the tired old MMO trope from WoW of fighter, thief and mage.
Be happy there even is a sci class in STO because a more dedicated to the IP development team would never have included it.