test content
  • Games
  • Social
  • Arc News
  • Support
  • Zen
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Why do sci ships only have six weapons?

dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited July 2014 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
Science ships are larger then escorts and, in some circumstances, the same size of a cruiser. Yet, they only have 6 weapon slots while escorts have 7 and cruisers have 8. So if size doesn't matter to the amount of weapons slots your ship may have...why are the tactically oriented escorts out gunned by the defensive(I'm using that term loosely here) oriented cruisers? Relevance is that career orientation also does not play a factor.

Science abilities aren't exactly feared to the point of warranting the loss of 1, possibly 2 weapon slots...i am sure we can all agree.

And if we look into lore of sto...Starfleet(kdf/roms have stepped up their game as well but they were always on the offensive) has been militarized. Why are escorts but more prominently scis....getting shafted in the grand scheme of weapon slots?

Just a random thought I had at work...

Cheers
Chive on and prosper, eh?

My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Post edited by dahminus on
«13

Comments

  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Because Cryptic hit science with the nerfbat, without refunding them what they took away previously as compensation.
    Critical Hit Calculator
  • castsbugccastsbugc Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think because that energy is handed over to aux and shield systems over tactical. Using the old D&D model, clerics are supposed to be squishier then fighters :)
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    castsbugc wrote: »
    I think because that energy is handed over to aux and shield systems over tactical. Using the old D&D model, clerics are supposed to be squishier then fighters :)

    Aye, but a warrior cleric can be devastating.

    Same applies to a tac, in a sci vessel.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Hull
    Shield Modifier
    Fore Weapons
    Aft Weapons
    Fused Fore Weapons
    Fused Aft Weapons
    Crew
    Tac BOFFs
    Eng BOFFs
    Sci BOFFs
    Uni BOFFs
    Device Slots
    Tac Consoles
    Eng Consoles
    Sci Consoles
    Turn Rate
    Impulse Modifier
    Inertia Rating
    Auxiliary Bonus Power
    Engine Bonus Power
    Shield Bonus Power
    Weapon Bonus Power
    Strategic Maneuvering
    Shield Frequency Modulation
    Weapon System Efficiency
    Attract Fire
    Can Use Dual Cannons
    Standard Cloak
    Battle Cloak
    Enhanced Battle Cloak
    Escort Defense Bonus
    Science Stealth Detection Bonus
    Subsystem Targeting
    1x Hangar
    2x Hangars
    Sensor Analysis
    Warp Core
    Singularity Core
    Etc, etc, etc...

    ...and I'm getting bored typing out all the various bits that Cryptic uses inconsistently to balance the ships. Cause in the end, they don't do it consistently...which is kind of annoying.
  • bunansabunansa Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    shadowwraith77 wrote: »
    Aye, but a warrior cleric can be devastating.

    Same applies to a tac, in a sci vessel.

    My cleric was never squishier than a tank, I mean cmon full plate, a shield a hammer, and heals and buffs....tank gets what...more hp woopy lol




    But as for science only having six weapon slots?


    Because we couldn't count higher? honestly no clue, Voyager gave and took more pounding tactically and engineering wise than she did with science abilities just saying

    (yeah yeah its because of the crew blah blah blah)
    tumblr_ndmkqm59J31r5ynioo2_r2_500.gif

  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    bunansa wrote: »
    My cleric was never squishier than a tank, I mean cmon full plate, a shield a hammer, and heals and buffs....tank gets what...more hp woopy lol




    But as for science only having six weapon slots?


    Because we couldn't count higher? honestly no clue, Voyager gave and took more pounding tactically and engineering wise than she did with science abilities just saying

    (yeah yeah its because of the crew blah blah blah)

    Oh I wasn't disagreeing, just stating how even a tac/sci, or dps oriented cleric could pose a threat.

    But they felt the sci spam, and higher shield mod, best compensated for some dps deficiency regarding science vessels.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • angrybobhangrybobh Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'd like to see some balance with this and, also, who wouldn't want a 4/3(or 4/4) Tac Vesta.
  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    I don't have a science toon (yet), but if they added another weapon slot to the Vesta... I probably would, then. :)

    Ain't buying the Vesta, though, until that happens.
    d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,737 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    In universe possible explanation:
    Science ships weren't designed for heavy combat like escorts. They were designed for studying anomalies and stuff. They are armed because its necessary to have weapons to defend themselves with.

    My 2 ECs:
    Sci ships can do more than a cruiser and escort. Escorts shoot things. And they do it well. Cruisers can take hits, and for the most part do it well. Sci ships control and frak with the enemy. And they do that well. Got someone who just gave themselves multiple buffs? DEBUFF! VIRAL MATRIX! TYKEN'S RIFT! GRAV WELL!
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    Yang Xiao Long wrote:
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • bunansabunansa Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mhall85 wrote: »
    I don't have a science toon (yet), but if they added another weapon slot to the Vesta... I probably would, then. :)

    Ain't buying the Vesta, though, until that happens.

    That would work as a Vesta upgrade she really isn't a pure science vessel, she was a multi mission vessel

    So, "fuse" an aux dual heavy cannon up front (or better yet make it a dual beam since we do have target subsystem abiltities) and still allow for 3 other weapon placements up front and 3 in the rear,

    drop her shield mod down to like 1.2 and give her a bit more hull (shes only like 7 meters shorter than the sovereign so why does it have half the hull?? /boggle)

    Also add in aux weapons other than the cannons she comes with, the andorian vessels and cardasian vessel have this option I think we should too,

    and that solves the science 6 weapon slot issue.
    tumblr_ndmkqm59J31r5ynioo2_r2_500.gif

  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,521 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dahminus wrote: »
    Science ships are larger then escorts and, in some circumstances, the same size of a cruiser. Yet, they only have 6 weapon slots while escorts have 7 and cruisers have 8. So if size doesn't matter to the amount of weapons slots your ship may have...why are the tactically oriented escorts out gunned by the defensive(I'm using that term loosely here) oriented cruisers? Relevance is that career orientation also does not play a factor.

    Science abilities aren't exactly feared to the point of warranting the loss of 1, possibly 2 weapon slots...i am sure we can all agree.

    And if we look into lore of sto...Starfleet(kdf/roms have stepped up their game as well but they were always on the offensive) has been militarized. Why are escorts but more prominently scis....getting shafted in the grand scheme of weapon slots?

    Just a random thought I had at work...

    Cheers

    The idea is that sensor analyses and subsystem targeting compensate for the loss of the 2 weapon slots.
    In practice however that never happens since both are rarely used and when someone uses it the debuff is cleaned in less than 1 second.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,903 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    In universe possible explanation:
    Science ships weren't designed for heavy combat like escorts. They were designed for studying anomalies and stuff. They are armed because its necessary to have weapons to defend themselves with.

    My 2 ECs:
    Sci ships can do more than a cruiser and escort. Escorts shoot things. And they do it well. Cruisers can take hits, and for the most part do it well. Sci ships control and frak with the enemy. And they do that well. Got someone who just gave themselves multiple buffs? DEBUFF! VIRAL MATRIX! TYKEN'S RIFT! GRAV WELL!

    Sure Sci can do more, but all that stuff they can do is easily mitigated, purged, avoided.

    PvE they have high resistances to drains and disables

    PvP there is things like ST and APO
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • kriskringle3kriskringle3 Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    noblet wrote: »
    Because Cryptic hit science with the nerfbat, without refunding them what they took away previously as compensation.
    questerius wrote: »
    The idea is that sensor analyses and subsystem targeting compensate for the loss of the 2 weapon slots.
    In practice however that never happens since both are rarely used and when someone uses it the debuff is cleaned in less than 1 second.

    There was actually a 1-2 punch in the beginning, from which science has NEVER recovered.

    (1) the Nerfing of the science consoles, to 1/2 power, and
    (2) the removal of the multi-console penalty on tac consoles.

    These two destroyed all competitive advantage to science ships. and this was due to complaints by players that they were TOO powerful. Truth is they weren't, but the DPS players won.

    Subsystem targeting is on cruisers, which are defiantly more powerful with 8 weap slots and three / four tac consoles. Until they correct this problem, science ships will never really get used again.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Science Vessels get Sensor Analysis. The ability to stack up to +30% damage gives you numbers equivalent to 8 Weapon Slots without the energy usage - before even factoring in damage from any Science ability.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The problem for science ships isn't the ships themselves, it's in part the way science boff skills receive buffs (favouring damage buffs over investment and power), in part the level of power they do have (see 1.5 second disables after resistance, 3.6 seconds is the best PSW3 I've ever managed), in part the small amount of buffing they do get (100 points of SubD making PSW3 go from 2.1 seconds to 3.6 seconds which after passive resistance building is only 1.5 to 2 seconds, prolly less that 1 after investing in resistance) and finally the cost of said small amount of buffing (100 points of SubD being 6 bars and a Lobi console, 18k in skill points and 200 Lobi).
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Because Science ships aren't really intended to be front line gunners. Escorts are built to hurt, hence their front-loaded layout, and Cruisers are built to be tanks that bite from all sides, hence the balanced 4/4 layout. This is how it's been since launch - the perceived disparity has nothing to do with nerfs that came after.

    Now obviously this paradigm has shifted slightly since launch, what with some recent Cruisers getting 5/3 layouts and Escorts getting 5/2's. However there remains a consistent maximum between both classes (7, 8 respectively), with the only possible exception being the Tempest, whose tailgun only faces aft and is "fused", so it can't be replaced with a proper turret.

    Best you can hope for for a Science ship with more or different weapon slots in the future is a fused fore weapon or a 4/2 layout.
    CD6tmmY.gif
    I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It would be nice to get at least a 4 Fore 2 Aft Sci ship. It still wouldn't top an Escort or Cruiser but the one added weapon slot up fron would help those running Aux Cannons or Torpedo boats.
    HzLLhLB.gif

  • teluasteluas Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think the weapons on sci ships are just fine. On my Romulan Dyson ship, I can usually take out entire squads with my alpha strike. I have the KCB and the 360' AP weapon on the rear, and the 3rd rear slot is basically wasted. Sensor Scan+GW3+Gravimetric Torp Spread 3=Win :D
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What bothers me about sci ships only having 6 weapons is that achieving this means not giving sci ships an additional weapon slot at tier 5; when cruisers and escorts do get one.

    This means that power growth is not consistent across all three types of ship; with sci ships getting left behind by cruisers and escorts after T4.
    My old (and now mostly obsolete) exploration suggestions thread. Give it a read. :)
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    bunansa wrote: »
    That would work as a Vesta upgrade she really isn't a pure science vessel, she was a multi mission vessel

    So, "fuse" an aux dual heavy cannon up front (or better yet make it a dual beam since we do have target subsystem abiltities) and still allow for 3 other weapon placements up front and 3 in the rear,

    drop her shield mod down to like 1.2 and give her a bit more hull (shes only like 7 meters shorter than the sovereign so why does it have half the hull?? /boggle)

    Also add in aux weapons other than the cannons she comes with, the andorian vessels and cardasian vessel have this option I think we should too,

    and that solves the science 6 weapon slot issue.

    Thanks to its DHCs and a hangar bay, the Vesta is the last Science Vessel to need a weapon upgrade. Give every other SV an extra weapon slot and have the Science Destroyers and Vestas have 6 weapon slots but with DHCs.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • stumpfgobsstumpfgobs Member Posts: 297 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Science Vessels get Sensor Analysis. The ability to stack up to +30% damage gives you numbers equivalent to 8 Weapon Slots without the energy usage - before even factoring in damage from any Science ability.

    Trouble is, some cruisers get sensor analysis and 4/4 weapons.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I love how many people like to complain about science ships who clearly don't fly them.

    Science ships have always had 3/3... and that is all they need more would be op honestly.

    Nothing in this game is more powerful then a proper Sci Sci.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • rakija879rakija879 Member Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    To be fair sci ships should have 2/5 wep slots,,,, why not?:D
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,903 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    stumpfgobs wrote: »
    Trouble is, some cruisers get sensor analysis and 4/4 weapons.

    People really don't fly those ships much though, people go for the Tac Oddy, don't see many Borts around(And people are more likely flying the tac one), and don't see many Tal Shiar Cruisers.

    The strongest Cruiser with SA is ironically the least played...the Bort with 4 tac consoles and SA.
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,903 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    antoniosalieri wrote: »
    I love how many people like to complain about science ships who clearly don't fly them.

    Science ships have always had 3/3... and that is all they need more would be op honestly.

    Nothing in this game is more powerful then a proper Sci Sci.

    Nothing more powerful than a Sci/Sci? Care to pass me some of what you're on? I would say just about anything in the game is more powerful than a Sci/Sci :P

    Well anything properly built and played...
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dahminus wrote: »
    Science ships are larger then escorts and, in some circumstances, the same size of a cruiser. Yet, they only have 6 weapon slots while escorts have 7 and cruisers have 8. So if size doesn't matter to the amount of weapons slots your ship may have...why are the tactically oriented escorts out gunned by the defensive(I'm using that term loosely here) oriented cruisers? Relevance is that career orientation also does not play a factor.

    Science abilities aren't exactly feared to the point of warranting the loss of 1, possibly 2 weapon slots...i am sure we can all agree.

    And if we look into lore of sto...Starfleet(kdf/roms have stepped up their game as well but they were always on the offensive) has been militarized. Why are escorts but more prominently scis....getting shafted in the grand scheme of weapon slots?

    Just a random thought I had at work...

    Cheers

    so a sci ship using gw3, scramble sensors, dyson torp with hy, torp and sci doffs that make those skills even more destructive, bonus points from ship parts and captains skills and an extra bonus from phaser strikes isnt already insanely powerful enough, you want sci ships to have more weapons slots, and whats next a lt comdr tac slot addition for a2b? get real.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Sign In or Register to comment.