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careers? like get rid of them!
duaths1
Member Posts: 1,232 Arc User
So after playing a sci for YEARS i did brush out my tac today - wanted to take a look on the claims that tacs do the most dmg.
and yes, my ****ty tac with all blue/green gear has been doing more dmg as my sci, equipped with top fleet gear.
PLUS - all the other funny perks like GW were doing almost the same dmg by the same effect.
so WHY do we need to play anything else then tac?
I am very sad and disappointed, cause i'Ve invested TIME into playing my KDF/ROM sci, and managed to get like 9000 accolade points.
DEVS, please, would you consider either:
1 - giving the sci a real dmg boost with sci skills, unavailable for other classes
2 - merging all 3 careers together and choosing the active powers like traits
3 - whatever, but this is outrageous!
what do you think?
and yes, my ****ty tac with all blue/green gear has been doing more dmg as my sci, equipped with top fleet gear.
PLUS - all the other funny perks like GW were doing almost the same dmg by the same effect.
so WHY do we need to play anything else then tac?
I am very sad and disappointed, cause i'Ve invested TIME into playing my KDF/ROM sci, and managed to get like 9000 accolade points.
DEVS, please, would you consider either:
1 - giving the sci a real dmg boost with sci skills, unavailable for other classes
2 - merging all 3 careers together and choosing the active powers like traits
3 - whatever, but this is outrageous!
what do you think?
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I've been pushing the 1 global captain career for awhile. Never really pans out
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
It's not all about DPS. If you want to focus on that, Cryptic gives folks the option to do so - without removing any options for folks that don't want to focus on that.
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20 years ago a person might have 2. Today people will have 15+ Who knows what the future might bring.
In the military there are different disciplines. You don't have a surgeon doing knee reconstruction one day, and then rebuilding a jet engine the next day.
But that's not to say you couldn't. It's just highly unlikely. You don't invest in a surgeons skills so he can do something else.
People have to be able to specialize, because in reality we need experts in the field. Starfleet Captains are supposed to be the 'best of the best', not a homogeneous assortment of 'Bob's'.
Careers are a way to define that. But at the end of the day it doesn't limit you.
As for DPS. Old Arguement. And for the record, while my tac does better for dps, my sci and engineers can do 15 dps easily, while retaining everything that make them unique.
Just my Two Bits
Admiral Thrax
p.s. Sci toons have MUCH MORE fun on the ground, and in space.
I like my Fed engineer. I think too many people are focusing on DPS rather than on fun. I know I am not breaking any DPS records with my engineering toon, but I am having fun and I do not blow up as often as many other players flying around with tactical toons, but I can last longer in a fight and I can deal a respectable amount of DPS.
Quite a number of times I see ships blowing up 3, 4 or 5 times in ICE which is the easy of the Borg STF. After a blowing up so many times the respawn time can become pretty long.
I got a Tactical toon exclusively flying BoPs. It's a blast flying BoPs. However, I know when to run away to heal up so I don't blow up very often. If I do go "boom" it only happens once per mission or very rarely twice per mission.
One class will simply make the game too boring and I think that's the lazy player mentality since that means you don't have to think about what type of toon you want to build up. At that point you are a jack of all trades and master of none.
I agree, I play the game for enjoyability and run 'canon' loadouts on my ship as much as I can get away with. With that I haven't had any issue with effectiveness in PvE content. However there are a lot of elitist types out there who think their life is meaningless if their ISE run lasts more than 2 minutes and are happy to call you out on it. I mean, I'm only a 10k DPS type, I must be doing it wrong. :rolleyes:
It's sort of like life, you have to do what makes you happy and ignore what anyone else has to say about it. That being said, it would be nice to see engy's and sci's brought up to par on some level with their tactical counterparts. Science particularly. A non-specced tac's GW3 shouldn't be on par with a specced into sci's GW3. That is nonsense.
I like where your head is at and seems up their alley with the trait revamp they did. We already have career-specific lockbox traits so the basic premise is there. Add new captain-level traits (even in a lockbox if need be) that we can pick and choose from. Either way, something should be done about these captain powers.
Regarding your observed results...
I am curious what ship were you flying with each captain? Tac in an escort? Sci in a science ship? Given the same ship, weapons, rep, consoles, etc. the tactical captain abilities will be better at damage since no science captain abilities boost damage the way a tactical does. This makes sense, since that is what a tac is supposed to do - shoot first, blow things up, make sense of what's going on after everything is dead.
What I do still get upset about is why tactical damage-increasing abilities work on science "exotic" damage types, I still don't know.
A tactical captain can use their abilities to syngergize with each other (APA with FOMM, GDF, and Tac Fleet boost damage dealing together). Obviously, these abilities mesh well together, and with weapons, and with tac Boff abilities (with TI), and with science Boff abilities for the damage dealing.
A science captain does not have this benefit, as each power really does something unrelated to the others (with the possible exception of science fleet and scattering field increasing resistance and reducing damage to shields). Subnuc is great for PVP, but almost useless for PVE.
The resistance-increasing abilities suffer from massive diminishing returns at high levels and thus scattering field is almost worthless if players already have themselves geared properly. The science abilities are really one-offs and situational at best.
TL;DR;
A science captain will never match a tac's damage-dealing, all else being equal, and nor should it. However, I don't see why a tac captain can boost science damage abilities. Tac captain abilities work very well together and with almost everything else. Science captain abilities really do not synergize with any other powers (cap or boff).
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Sto never wanted to be trinity. Otherwise only sci captains in sci ships. Tact captains in escorts and engineering cruisers
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
For something they never wanted it sure is unequivocally there.;)
Just they same, however, at least the game does not require trinity play and bridge officer selection mitigates it further.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
1. probably wont happen any time soon, its dps online, unless the devs and pwe shift off their high horse, thats not gonna happen.
2. it would be one giant mess especially since the game is clearly designed around the trinity system in mind.
3. rage quit time? whatever the case, dont create a thread about it.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I admit its not perfect, as one captain probably has a different skill build than another, but it should narrow down the variation a bit.
Who's the tank?
Starship Threat Control is a Tac skill.
DOFF'd APD for increased Threat is a Tac ability.
Attract Fire Cruiser Command is on Cruisers and Flight Deck Cruisers.
+/-Threat consoles are Sci Consoles.
Damage Resistance comes from all over the place.
Who's the healer?
Eng Captains can heal themselves.
Both Eng and Sci BOFFs provide heals.
Tac BOFFs can provide damage resistance.
Sci Captains can provide AoE damage resistance.
Who's the DPS?
Tac Captains have the apparent edge there with APA, FoMM, TacInit, GDF, TacFleet...
Still, Sci Captains can debuff damage resistance as well as strip buffs.
Eng Captains can...er...make use of everything but the Tac/Sci Captain abilities.
Where is the MMO Trinity then?
Folks can come along and roll with it if they want...they can fudge it...but they can fudge it in so many ways, that it's still not really there.
5x Tac Captains, you could roll with a Tank, Healer, and 3x DPS.
5x Eng Captains, you could roll with a Tank, Healer, and 3x DPS.
5x Sci Captains, you could roll with a Tank, Healer, and 3x DPS.
You could have a Tac Healer, Sci Tank, and 3x Eng DPS if you wanted to do that...
...if the MMO Trinity was there, you couldn't.
p.s. I'm joking about the dumb blond part but that what come to mind when I read the thread title. I'm not joking about the careers.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I love the challenge of playing my Sci and Engineer toons.. they support the Tacs they're not meant to be the heavy hitters..
Frankly, I don't see Cryptic starting from scratch. That's for STO2.
Actually having a single career if done properly would not in any way dumb down the skill system, if done right it would actually make it more in-depth and complex.
Imagine a single career but in the skill sheet multiple career paths (tactical, engineering, science, medical, command etc), with a set amount of skill points you can spend over the whole set of paths, and each path at certain levels of training (say as an example at 10,000 20,000 and 30,000 skill points spent) give bonuses for that careers abilities.
That would make choosing your skills even more important and the decisions harder.
This kind of skill system is one I've always loved, you're not defining your roll from the beginning but training and evolving it into what you want to be, and because your "role" is all in your choices with a respec you can change your role without having to make and level a new character.
Tacs do more dps. So what? If ground were as important as space, nobody would complain, especially not the engineers. The Scis are in both the best allrounders.
Its laughable to play Sci and complain, just because a Tac in space does more dps. With 10k, a number even my fun-drain-torp deep space vessel accomplishes, more dps is just a surplus. And with Vestas and Recluse on other Scis, capable of 20k while tanking, CC, healing (granted, due to aggro most heal is going to tanking^^) I dont really see any problem. And I play all careers ground and space.
Why so opposed to freedom of choice?
The career thing works on ground. Science officers are the only serious healers, tactical officers do far more damage and engineers are able to support with turrets, which can also have a 'tanking' benefit, and shield heals.
The only reason it doesn't work in space is because tactical officers have healing abilities, and thus depend far less on science officers than when doing a ground mission. If they made a more 'pure' system, sharpened the divisions between careers in space, it could work, as there would be actually a need for real tanks and healers or the tactical officers wouldn't survive.
To answer the question of why we need other characters than tacs: at the moment we don't, at least not in space missions. But the solution is not to make one career, I think the solution would be to give more distinction to each career. No healing abilities (or only one for each player if you are, for example, doing ISE in a full tac team) for tactical officers, no DPS enhancing abilities for science officers and engineers and so on.
Three really distinctive careers could work and would make it necessary to have engineers and science officers around.
Edit: To make a long story a bit shorter:
I do agree there is only a limited need for engineers and science officers. I disagree with the proposed solution however. The reason for the limited need for engineers and science officers stems from the fact that there are no really distinctive careers in space missions. Trying to solve this problem by removing the little distinction there is, seems a bit illogical to me.
I see we play different games, as Engineers are the top-DDs on ground (mines and bombs), while a well-played Sci pretty much stands on equal footing too a well played Tac in PvE. All have healing abilities due to hypos and 2pc-sets.
Overall Engs and Scis are pretty cabable on themselves, having more synergies due to their traits and abilities. Tacs are nice dmg-wise, but fall behind engineers of the same level of skill, and are more or less equal on Scis, which can tank better, even on full-attack-kit.
True, you can make a Sci a healer, but you dont need heal on ground, so its pretty much dead weight ( pvp is a bit different though). Its simple, in a good team, nobody needs heal, in a bad team healing bad players is useless. So even here the way to go is damage.
So, well, you just hopped into the trinity-train and let it deceive you, ground is vastly different to roles and space. Thats why I said "if ground would be as important as space, nobody would complain about dps&roles".
@skollulfr:Yes, Trinity should just die screaming in flames.
The bomb part is true, but that is passive damage. I have both science and tactical ground characters, I've taken both of them to battle zones to be able to compare them, and there is a difference. A significant difference, my tactical officer deals far more damage than my medic.
I disagree with the 'no-healing-needed' part. Heals are necessary in most cases.
Edit: looks to me we are playing different games indeed...
I've always found that Engineers (and to a degree, Science) can hold their own ground whereas Tacticals (to a lesser degree) rely on support. I guess it depends on how much you want to die?
Passive dmg? If you regard it as such, you should play your engineer on the front lines and not behind covershields. Agood Engineer doesnt wait for the enemy, he attacks it boldly. As for Tac vs. Sci, you just said it yourself, you played Tac vs. Medic-Say, hence "gimping" your Sci damage-wise and making a real comparasion impossible, as heals dont do damage.
In Battlezones Engs also prevails, but BZ are normal difficulty, so I regard elite stfs higher, and here a well built science (previously it would be physicist-kit+pulsewave) can take down whole mobs within three seconds). Engineer simply out-dpses both other careers (if played offensive and not building turrets, mortars and then hiding behind cover shield). And tacs go on equal footing with Sci, sometimes better, sometimes worse.
Sci can GW their enemies, take out their shields and than simply woosh them away in the group. Tacs are a bit more... archaic and just raw-dps them away, but in the end both are near equal damagewise.
As for the healing part or the whole part, maybe we have a different level of experience in this game, as hypos and 2pc-Sets are more than enough heal in most cases (especially on those normal BZs). Might also be playstyle and such (like crouching negating 50% incoming damage, using flanking and such).
No offence, but when a few years back, when I had far less understanding of mechanics and synergies, I also thought, (much) healing would be something important, but time proved my earlier self wrong
Tac captains inherently have a lot of abilities that enhance the damage they do. Attack pattern alpha is an example of this. It directly increases your damage output and maneuverability. Theres another one I can't remember the name of that reduces the cool down time of all your tac boff abilities. Odds are these also increase your damage, so it has an indirect affect on your damage dealing.
Eng captains are almost completely opposite that of Tacs. They use their abilities to increase damage resistance, decrease power drain, and keep themselves alive while whittling down their opponents shields and hull. Not nearly as powerful tactically, but able go easily outlast the other 2 classes in a sustained fight. They also provide a lot of direct support to their team, by healing and increasing their damage resistance.
Sci captains are a little closer to Tac captains in that they also do a decent amount of damage, though theirs comes from special abilities. They focus more on reducing a targets resistance to damage, shutting down their systems, and making it generally impossible to put up an adequate defense. Sci ships are unique in that they only have a max of 6 weapon slots (7 if you count the sci destroyers), and they have a high number of sci boff seats. Sci vessels rely on sci abilities like gravity well, tykens rift, and such to deal additional damage and keep their target from getting away.
At least, that's how I see it. From what I understand, it used to be that to have a real successful team you needed at least 1 of each of these to support each other.
With my Tacs and Engs i die really quickly in ground.... with my sci i do find and i outdmg most people also ( ground )
and in space i do "okay" .. wich is enough to play this game...
To me Sci is the best class due to its heals on ground and photonic fleet and scattering field in space.
even thoug hi think all healine skills should heal the whole team...since this:
I go to ground, i get all aggro mean i get dmg.. so i need to heal myself.. (( especially at boss fight )) then someone near me looses HP and i am stil recharging my heals...so i need to decide if i heal myself or them...
but in the end i do better with sci .. no idea why peopel like tacs so much,
Foundation is...
do a Google Image Search for: Star Trek The Original Series
...and tell us how many colors of uniform tops there are, eh?
At least they do something and have a clear path, Sci is like a jack of all trades, master of none. Sci has a little bit of damage, little bit of debuff, and little bit of buff...but not really good at any of them...especially since ST can be used so easily now.
To the OP, of course your Tac is going to do more damage as it has pretty much nothing but damage boosting skills, APA alone is a 50% boost to damage and what ever % to crit.