I didn't read all the posts but since I have max level characters of all types I'll give my 2 cents.
Sci cap'ns are about TEAMwork.
For instance sci ships get sensor analysis. This can increase the damage everyone in the group is doing by up to 30%. So when SA is in full effect, an extra 30% of your dps is actually being caused by the sci cap'n while the dps meter you use is probably assigning that damage to you.
Next we have gravity well. GW isn't about doing damage. It can be used to group together enemy ships so the one trick pony dps toons can hit them all with scatter volly and torp spread.
On the ground scis are also team players. With the right doffs a sci can create a GW on the ground to group together the enemies so tac captains can hit them with grenades. And with tachyon harmonic the sci can strip an enemy, like a tactical drone, of its shields so the team can have an easier time taking it down.
There are other examples too. Now moving on to eng cap'ns...
In space eng cruisers get abilities that buff the team. For instance they can decrease the power drain of firing your weapons by 25%, which increases the team's dps. They can also increase the team's turn rate and shield strength and on some cruisers take agro.
On the ground... Let's just say bringing an engineer to a ground fight is just shy of using an exploit.
So op, try using your sci toon as a team player instead of a dps machine. Your individual dps might be lower but the team's dps will be much higher.
irrelevant herring is irrelevant. even if you do quote-mine for it its still irrelevant.
That there were Gold Shirts, Blue Shirts, and Red Shirts is irrelevant? So that there were three shirts long before there were MMOs and even before there were RPGs...is irrelevant?
That's the most epic /facepalm ever...
How dare they do a Star Trek MMO that pays attention in the least to Star Trek!!!
I have 10 chars, 1 of each faction/career PLUS an additional FED SCI that is arguably = to my main toon. Which is a FED ENG...
That said my FED Eng is high DPS AND survivability- seems most FED to me to play an engineer based tactical Oddy... "Canon"
The Second FED sci I made flys a COMPLETED Wells Temporal Science vessel and OWNS in PVP, take your time, SPECIALIZE to your classes respective strengths and safeguard its weaknesses.. Its also called strategy...
No merging required, just a little patience (player since day 2 of live game here)
irrelevant herring is irrelevant. even if you do quote-mine for it its still irrelevant.
apB + FOMM does that better.
the goal is kill the enemy, the people doing that best are the ones contributing most.
tacs make better use of gw than sci's.
infact, its useless to any sci that cant get through shields to cause chain kills from core breaches.
cherry picking.
any class can be played as part of a team since their initial design was that of interdependent classes.
problem is that reduces people to NPCs. stealing their agency(ability to make choices/freedom) within the game. that idea is obsolete.
you mean when scis just won, or later when tac buffed sci ships won?
Most of what you said is just wrong. Teamwork reduces players to npcs and steals their ability to make choices and freedom? I don't even know how to respond to that.
Another thing, whether or not a tac or sci are better at using gwell depends on the person behind the character. In infected, in the old days before our ships got all their elite fleet or rep gears, if one player used gwell on the generator donut thing, and the other used it on the approaching nanite probes, one was better at using it.
And combining that tac's gwell with your sci's photonic fleet or tyken's rift, that makes a nice combo.
For the record my sci vulcan's a2b galor, complete with marion, can probably out dps your (I assume) escort.
In the military there are different disciplines. You don't have a surgeon doing knee reconstruction one day, and then rebuilding a jet engine the next day.
But that's not to say you couldn't. It's just highly unlikely. You don't invest in a surgeons skills so he can do something else.
People have to be able to specialize, because in reality we need experts in the field. Starfleet Captains are supposed to be the 'best of the best', not a homogeneous assortment of 'Bob's'.
The problem with this analogy is that with few, if ANY, exceptions Doctors, Surgeons and Engineers, in the real life Navy, do NOT end up Captaining ships. You may have Captains that started out in one or another discipline but, at some point, they will transition to a Command training track and by the time they have achieved a Bridge command position (Captain, XO, etc.) they will be well versed in every discipline on that ship. Any good ships Captain is, in fact, a Jack-of-all Trades, Master of None... or a "BOB", as you put it. The only exception to this comes in time of war when a field command appointment becomes necessary (a VERY rare event) and even then as soon as possible that person would be placed in a Command training program.
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
and we both know thats noting to do with how the rpg trinity got applied here. you could make that excuse about shirt colours and have it be a streight played fps.
though dont let that get in the way of you having another tantrum over your precious.
there is a difference between allowing players to work together, and using the antiquated trinity to come up with classes that are dependent on each other.
if you cant tell the difference between voluntary teamwork and interdependency thats your problem.
doesnt change the simple fact that this myopic rpg trinity derived view of 'teamwork' robs players of agency because:
a low dps class will be dependent on a high dps class to kill things
a low heal class will be dependent on a healer class to fix things
and
a low hp class will be dependent on a high hp class to soak hits.
that is just one in a litany of failures in the rpg trinity, and the knockon effects from this are everywhere regardless of fandrips worshipping the trinity system like its mana from the gods infallible brilliance.
none of which is changed by you ****-waving about your galor.
It seems to me that you want everyone to be a master at everything. That completely eliminates customization and makes everyone the same. Unless you have some other alternative in mind?
In the Star Trek shows and movies no one was a master at everything. Scotty could fix a dilithium core but not a broken leg, and Bones vice versa. What you want, to eliminate this trinity so you can tank and heal and dps all in one isn't in any way Star Trek.
My comment about my galor may have been out of line and I apologize. I was just trying to illustrate that a sci could do good dps. Thay try was done poorly, however.
And I don't know what fandrip means, but it takes one to know one. Whatever that one may be.
Lets face it, all the powers have needed a good rework for awhile. That doesnt mean they would all need to be changed, but there is a lot of boring, under powered, niche, or plain useless skills that could be made into dynamic, fun and effective abilities.
Lets take jam sensors. Almost nobody uses this right? What if we added an accuracy debuff to the ship it was cast on, say 25% for 6 seconds. Wow now its a useful debuff in pvp and pve.
See what i mean? A few tweaks could really make this game much more fun.
though dont let that get in the way of you having another tantrum over your precious.
That's the thing. Time and time again, the differences between the MMO Trinity and everything else in the world is pointed out to you. Many folks share your hate of the MMO Trinity. You seem to want to apply it to everything - even when it is not there...and to blame anything that has anything to do with any kind of trinity. You attack the number three with almost like a religious zealot.
You start hurling around the most nonsensical things - attacking folks as if they were defending something they are not...you go into a blind and mindless rage.
In the Star Trek shows and movies no one was a master at everything. Scotty could fix a dilithium core but not a broken leg, and Bones vice versa. What you want, to eliminate this trinity so you can tank and heal and dps all in one isn't in any way Star Trek.
It's the way discussing anything with him ends up. Reality no longer matters - all that matters is his hatred of the MMO Trinity...it really is tedious, meh. Plenty of us hate the MMO Trinity and what it has done to the games - but uh, we can still look at Star Trek and see that it was a diversification that existed before there were any MMOs.
Outside Captain abilities and half of ground skills everyone IS exactly the same, the only specialization comes on Ground and in space its GDF/MW/PF and the "Fleet" team buff.
So basically, if you remove everything that makes them different, yes, they are identical.
Some abilities, captain or boff, are in dire need of a revamp pass. Sensor jam, tachyon beam (seriously, I can do twice the damage with a single DHC salvo)...
As for captain, for example nadion inversion while good years ago, is now really weak. Especially compared to demarion, which is pretty much the same, with lower CD, and added bonuses. And you can make it even better using a2b.
Who is he? he the current Captain of the USNS Mercy ...
And I thought it was one of Nick Fury senior officer. On the other hand, I have no idea who he is.
character professions can be very annoying for me as there are many in game accolades that can only be gained if you are an engineer science or tactical and though you may be able to repeat missions while teaming with one of these at a time to pick up accolades you would not normally gain there are many accolades that you will not get unless you can form a team that has at least one of each of these at the same time and forming a full team can be very dificult.
my fed character for example is a tact but I have been able to gain accolades for sci or eng by teaming with them but to form a full team is very hard so there are still many that I have never received.
rather then doing away with professions altogether or making all profession attributes the same, I would rather you gain these professions yourself through the doff mission rewards.
you are often rewarded with the title so why not get the attribute to go with it to be able to earn accolades with that specialty.
for example going back to my fed who is tactical he has earned through doff missions the titles of chief science officer and chief engineer yet he has not got the attributes to go with the title and cannot perform tasks that are for these professions to earn the accolades, to me this is crazy.
there are many people in real life and in trek lore that are proficient in two or all three of these professions so I cannot see why it cannot be so in sto.
ok so a tactical expert may never be as good at science as a scientist but he should have enough knowledge of science to perform the simple tasks required to earn the accolades if he is good enough to have earned the title of chief science officer.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Yet, almost all MMO's have the trinity and those that don't and have free form skill systems (TSW, UO etc) the players tend to force themselves into those roles with their specs anyway ... funny that.
(just to clarify I personally hate the trinity and try to avoid it, just pointing out the irony of the situation).
Yet, almost all MMO's have the trinity and those that don't and have free form skill systems (TSW, UO etc) the players tend to force themselves into those roles with their specs anyway ... funny that.
(just to clarify I personally hate the trinity and try to avoid it, just pointing out the irony of the situation).
But that's kind of the thing. There's roles and there's the hardcoded aspect of the MMO Trinity. RPGs didn't invent the Trinity - it was there for thousands of years in literature. MMOs though, butchered and perverted that into something else. It's only natural that folks find themselves moving toward certain things - cause that's the way it's been. It's another when they're put into such an artificial thing as many MMOs have done over the years.
There's a game out there that kept the hardcoded need, but they've opened it up so that it's not hardcoded to classes. Then there's this game, where for the most part it doesn't exist - but you can still go there if you want.
It's not a case that folks force themselves into roles - folks will generally go toward what they enjoy, even if the roles aren't hardcoded there. It's the games with the artificial threat - where you've got the "mob" that might run an empire, have a massive army, and be a threat to the universe as the characters know it...but that "mob" is too stupid not to keep beating on the meatshield while ignoring the guy healing the meatshield and the folks whacking away at it? That's just plain stupid...and...it's a MMO Trinity thing, not a RPG Trinity thing.
That's why, imho, it's an argument about various systems - rather than various roles. Roles are natural...the systems are /facepalm. Cryptic has done a pretty decent job of avoiding those systems, though they're still there to an extent - but they're not overriding nor are they required. It makes a world of difference. Course, things are woefully out of balance with their being content that favors a certain course of action over others rather than providing equal opportunities there...and that's a definite issue, but one could completely remove the Careers - open everything up - and folks would end up gravitating to the same things because the game's just balanced around anything else. That's the issue, imho, not chasing phantoms...
the players tend to force themselves into those roles with their specs anyway ... funny that.
They probably enjoy the "trinity system". There's a reason it's a staple in many MMOs, and that is because it provides characters with unique roles. And realistically, it's not only a "trinity" of classes. DPSers, tanks, stealths, healers, buffers, and debuffers are all roles players choose to take, And even those are split into sub-roles. Ranged DPSers, melee DPSers, magic tanks, physical tanks, etc. Granted it's good that games are now giving players a choice to take up a specialized role or become effectively a jack-of-all-trades, but players that enjoy the traditional game roles will still gravitate towards them.
Most players here I would guess do not come from an MMORPG community. And even if they do, there is a chance that they are among the few MMO players who dislike the class system. Thus we get a community who initially seems to heavily dislike the class system. Which IMO is what conflicts with STO's "trinity" of tactical, engineering, and science elements. It's not that the system is obsolete, it's that there aren't as many class system advocates as in other games.
They probably enjoy the "trinity system". There's a reason it's a staple in many MMOs, and that is because it provides characters with unique roles. And realistically, it's not only a "trinity" of classes. DPSers, tanks, stealths, healers, buffers, and debuffers are all roles players choose to take, And even those are split into sub-roles. Ranged DPSers, melee DPSers, magic tanks, physical tanks, etc. Granted it's good that games are now giving players a choice to take up a specialized role or become effectively a jack-of-all-trades, but players that enjoy the traditional game roles will still gravitate towards them.
Most players here I would guess do not come from an MMORPG community. And even if they do, there is a chance that they are among the few MMO players who dislike the class system. Thus we get a community who initially seems to heavily dislike the class system. Which IMO is what conflicts with STO's "trinity" of tactical, engineering, and science elements. It's not that the system is obsolete, it's that there aren't as many class system advocates as in other games.
STO's system isn't a rigorous system. Careers are just itemization - they're not shackles like one finds with classes in other games.
Some folks see a "trinity" there as if it was another game, but it's just not there.
Then some folks definitely feel more comfortable with a "trinity" and they try to push it here - adding all sorts of restrictions, trying to impose a "trinity" on the system in place.
Some folks just kick back and roll with it, doing their own thing with the options available to them.
Still, would be nifty as Hell - imho - if Cryptic were to add more content that favored some of the other stuff; maybe gave a little more thought to the balance of things in that regard - cause even though not much is required to do anything - where almost everything is simply DPS based, it's going to favor the abilities of one career over others.
Doesn't mean they need to introduce a single line of content that makes everybody feel special - cause that's introducing the MMO Trinity and we'll end up with the looking for Tank/Heals nonsense...but they could introduce a variety of content, giving folks some room to play.
STO's system isn't a rigorous system. Careers are just itemization - they're not shackles like one finds with classes in other games.
Some folks see a "trinity" there as if it was another game, but it's just not there.
Then some folks definitely feel more comfortable with a "trinity" and they try to push it here - adding all sorts of restrictions, trying to impose a "trinity" on the system in place.
Some folks just kick back and roll with it, doing their own thing with the options available to them.
Too lazy to read the entire thread, but just wanted to touch on these points: I love the way STO handles classes. I am so glad that, in a game already split into three factions, I don't have to have nine characters to fly all of the ships I want to. The fact that my Engineer flies mainly escorts and does effectively in them is great. He's not a "tank", he's a guy that's good at fixing stuff -- that fits Star Trek so much better.
The "trinity" exists in this game...on the ground, where you only have your career-specific skills. In space, your captain's bringing their expertise (career-specific abilities) to their crew (BOFF abilities). It's a really nice system, I don't understand why anyone would want to get rid of it or pigeon hole captains into only flying the class of ship that matches their "role"...
It's a really nice system, I don't understand why anyone would want to get rid of it or pigeon hole captains into only flying the class of ship that matches their "role"...
It could use with some tweaks here and there, it's far from perfect - but tweaking stuff is far different than those two somewhat complaints that contradict each other that we see, eh?
Some tweaking - definitely....lots of tweaking here and there. Not homogenization - but some balancing and some content...eh?
Oh yeah, tweaks, definitely. I don't think I'd use "perfect" to describe anything in this game...except maybe the elite fleet phaser stun pistol model. :P
So after playing a sci for YEARS i did brush out my tac today - wanted to take a look on the claims that tacs do the most dmg.
and yes, my ****ty tac with all blue/green gear has been doing more dmg as my sci, equipped with top fleet gear.
PLUS - all the other funny perks like GW were doing almost the same dmg by the same effect.
so WHY do we need to play anything else then tac?
I am very sad and disappointed, cause i'Ve invested TIME into playing my KDF/ROM sci, and managed to get like 9000 accolade points.
DEVS, please, would you consider either:
1 - giving the sci a real dmg boost with sci skills, unavailable for other classes
2 - merging all 3 careers together and choosing the active powers like traits
3 - whatever, but this is outrageous!
what do you think?
I dont understand this post. So basically you want to have the chance to deal the same or more damage than your tactical.. i wonder, people still dont get that science is not for damage. A tactical will ALWAYS be the class which more damage inflicts. It doesnt matter the equipment you have in your science. If by now you dont know this.. well... i dont know wat to think.. if you want to use your science toon the same way as your tactical.. there is your problem.
having 3 classes that are equally capable, with specialisation in how they go about their goals, is not the interdependent mess the trinity is founded on.
doesnt change that it is the system STOs classes where built on.
Yep...watching Star Trek...which came before RPGs and MMOs. Which was based on archetypes that existed before Star Trek. Things that I guess you feel pollute thousands of years of literature...because they're following something that didn't come for thousands of years later.
I have to admit, while I do like the differences between classes, I always did find it odd that tac officers can magically make their standard issue disintegrator guns do way more damage than anyone else can. If there were restricted issue weapons that only officers with suitable tactical training can use, that would be different; but there aren't.
Attack pattern alpha is kind of odd too if you think about it. Surely it's your helmsman and tactical officers that matter with stuff like that; not the Captain. Are there supposed to be attack patterns that aren't stored in ship computers, that only a select few tactical officers are ever told about in secret? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense really.
Still, it's a game. Gameplay before all else I suppose.
Comments
Big numbers.
Especially on ground. It's very, very easy to one-shot things, even on elite difficulty.
In space, they make you work for it. You need consoles and skills and weapons and ships... gah.
On ground, I just need my boot.
Sci cap'ns are about TEAMwork.
For instance sci ships get sensor analysis. This can increase the damage everyone in the group is doing by up to 30%. So when SA is in full effect, an extra 30% of your dps is actually being caused by the sci cap'n while the dps meter you use is probably assigning that damage to you.
Next we have gravity well. GW isn't about doing damage. It can be used to group together enemy ships so the one trick pony dps toons can hit them all with scatter volly and torp spread.
On the ground scis are also team players. With the right doffs a sci can create a GW on the ground to group together the enemies so tac captains can hit them with grenades. And with tachyon harmonic the sci can strip an enemy, like a tactical drone, of its shields so the team can have an easier time taking it down.
There are other examples too. Now moving on to eng cap'ns...
In space eng cruisers get abilities that buff the team. For instance they can decrease the power drain of firing your weapons by 25%, which increases the team's dps. They can also increase the team's turn rate and shield strength and on some cruisers take agro.
On the ground... Let's just say bringing an engineer to a ground fight is just shy of using an exploit.
So op, try using your sci toon as a team player instead of a dps machine. Your individual dps might be lower but the team's dps will be much higher.
That there were Gold Shirts, Blue Shirts, and Red Shirts is irrelevant? So that there were three shirts long before there were MMOs and even before there were RPGs...is irrelevant?
That's the most epic /facepalm ever...
How dare they do a Star Trek MMO that pays attention in the least to Star Trek!!!
/facepalm
Jis Bo slots are mostly focused on healing and his consoles boost that.
do i get told im useless by players in STF? no. Do i top the damage charts? no Do i contribute to overall success of the mission? yes.
the problem isnt the game imo its the players attitude.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
And there's nothing Cryptic can do about that.
I have 10 chars, 1 of each faction/career PLUS an additional FED SCI that is arguably = to my main toon. Which is a FED ENG...
That said my FED Eng is high DPS AND survivability- seems most FED to me to play an engineer based tactical Oddy... "Canon"
The Second FED sci I made flys a COMPLETED Wells Temporal Science vessel and OWNS in PVP, take your time, SPECIALIZE to your classes respective strengths and safeguard its weaknesses.. Its also called strategy...
No merging required, just a little patience (player since day 2 of live game here)
Most of what you said is just wrong. Teamwork reduces players to npcs and steals their ability to make choices and freedom? I don't even know how to respond to that.
Another thing, whether or not a tac or sci are better at using gwell depends on the person behind the character. In infected, in the old days before our ships got all their elite fleet or rep gears, if one player used gwell on the generator donut thing, and the other used it on the approaching nanite probes, one was better at using it.
And combining that tac's gwell with your sci's photonic fleet or tyken's rift, that makes a nice combo.
For the record my sci vulcan's a2b galor, complete with marion, can probably out dps your (I assume) escort.
The problem with this analogy is that with few, if ANY, exceptions Doctors, Surgeons and Engineers, in the real life Navy, do NOT end up Captaining ships. You may have Captains that started out in one or another discipline but, at some point, they will transition to a Command training track and by the time they have achieved a Bridge command position (Captain, XO, etc.) they will be well versed in every discipline on that ship. Any good ships Captain is, in fact, a Jack-of-all Trades, Master of None... or a "BOB", as you put it. The only exception to this comes in time of war when a field command appointment becomes necessary (a VERY rare event) and even then as soon as possible that person would be placed in a Command training program.
It seems to me that you want everyone to be a master at everything. That completely eliminates customization and makes everyone the same. Unless you have some other alternative in mind?
In the Star Trek shows and movies no one was a master at everything. Scotty could fix a dilithium core but not a broken leg, and Bones vice versa. What you want, to eliminate this trinity so you can tank and heal and dps all in one isn't in any way Star Trek.
My comment about my galor may have been out of line and I apologize. I was just trying to illustrate that a sci could do good dps. Thay try was done poorly, however.
And I don't know what fandrip means, but it takes one to know one. Whatever that one may be.
Lets take jam sensors. Almost nobody uses this right? What if we added an accuracy debuff to the ship it was cast on, say 25% for 6 seconds. Wow now its a useful debuff in pvp and pve.
See what i mean? A few tweaks could really make this game much more fun.
That's the thing. Time and time again, the differences between the MMO Trinity and everything else in the world is pointed out to you. Many folks share your hate of the MMO Trinity. You seem to want to apply it to everything - even when it is not there...and to blame anything that has anything to do with any kind of trinity. You attack the number three with almost like a religious zealot.
You start hurling around the most nonsensical things - attacking folks as if they were defending something they are not...you go into a blind and mindless rage.
It's tedious.
It's the way discussing anything with him ends up. Reality no longer matters - all that matters is his hatred of the MMO Trinity...it really is tedious, meh. Plenty of us hate the MMO Trinity and what it has done to the games - but uh, we can still look at Star Trek and see that it was a diversification that existed before there were any MMOs.
Some abilities, captain or boff, are in dire need of a revamp pass. Sensor jam, tachyon beam (seriously, I can do twice the damage with a single DHC salvo)...
As for captain, for example nadion inversion while good years ago, is now really weak. Especially compared to demarion, which is pretty much the same, with lower CD, and added bonuses. And you can make it even better using a2b.
And I thought it was one of Nick Fury senior officer. On the other hand, I have no idea who he is.
my fed character for example is a tact but I have been able to gain accolades for sci or eng by teaming with them but to form a full team is very hard so there are still many that I have never received.
rather then doing away with professions altogether or making all profession attributes the same, I would rather you gain these professions yourself through the doff mission rewards.
you are often rewarded with the title so why not get the attribute to go with it to be able to earn accolades with that specialty.
for example going back to my fed who is tactical he has earned through doff missions the titles of chief science officer and chief engineer yet he has not got the attributes to go with the title and cannot perform tasks that are for these professions to earn the accolades, to me this is crazy.
there are many people in real life and in trek lore that are proficient in two or all three of these professions so I cannot see why it cannot be so in sto.
ok so a tactical expert may never be as good at science as a scientist but he should have enough knowledge of science to perform the simple tasks required to earn the accolades if he is good enough to have earned the title of chief science officer.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
the only reason doffs and crafting are getting "fixed" is to add another dil sink.
its a miracle, the good faith the star trek community has, has extended this far. I feel like any other property would have died by now.
Yet, almost all MMO's have the trinity and those that don't and have free form skill systems (TSW, UO etc) the players tend to force themselves into those roles with their specs anyway ... funny that.
(just to clarify I personally hate the trinity and try to avoid it, just pointing out the irony of the situation).
But that's kind of the thing. There's roles and there's the hardcoded aspect of the MMO Trinity. RPGs didn't invent the Trinity - it was there for thousands of years in literature. MMOs though, butchered and perverted that into something else. It's only natural that folks find themselves moving toward certain things - cause that's the way it's been. It's another when they're put into such an artificial thing as many MMOs have done over the years.
There's a game out there that kept the hardcoded need, but they've opened it up so that it's not hardcoded to classes. Then there's this game, where for the most part it doesn't exist - but you can still go there if you want.
It's not a case that folks force themselves into roles - folks will generally go toward what they enjoy, even if the roles aren't hardcoded there. It's the games with the artificial threat - where you've got the "mob" that might run an empire, have a massive army, and be a threat to the universe as the characters know it...but that "mob" is too stupid not to keep beating on the meatshield while ignoring the guy healing the meatshield and the folks whacking away at it? That's just plain stupid...and...it's a MMO Trinity thing, not a RPG Trinity thing.
That's why, imho, it's an argument about various systems - rather than various roles. Roles are natural...the systems are /facepalm. Cryptic has done a pretty decent job of avoiding those systems, though they're still there to an extent - but they're not overriding nor are they required. It makes a world of difference. Course, things are woefully out of balance with their being content that favors a certain course of action over others rather than providing equal opportunities there...and that's a definite issue, but one could completely remove the Careers - open everything up - and folks would end up gravitating to the same things because the game's just balanced around anything else. That's the issue, imho, not chasing phantoms...
Most players here I would guess do not come from an MMORPG community. And even if they do, there is a chance that they are among the few MMO players who dislike the class system. Thus we get a community who initially seems to heavily dislike the class system. Which IMO is what conflicts with STO's "trinity" of tactical, engineering, and science elements. It's not that the system is obsolete, it's that there aren't as many class system advocates as in other games.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
STO's system isn't a rigorous system. Careers are just itemization - they're not shackles like one finds with classes in other games.
Some folks see a "trinity" there as if it was another game, but it's just not there.
Then some folks definitely feel more comfortable with a "trinity" and they try to push it here - adding all sorts of restrictions, trying to impose a "trinity" on the system in place.
Some folks just kick back and roll with it, doing their own thing with the options available to them.
Still, would be nifty as Hell - imho - if Cryptic were to add more content that favored some of the other stuff; maybe gave a little more thought to the balance of things in that regard - cause even though not much is required to do anything - where almost everything is simply DPS based, it's going to favor the abilities of one career over others.
Doesn't mean they need to introduce a single line of content that makes everybody feel special - cause that's introducing the MMO Trinity and we'll end up with the looking for Tank/Heals nonsense...but they could introduce a variety of content, giving folks some room to play.
Too lazy to read the entire thread, but just wanted to touch on these points: I love the way STO handles classes. I am so glad that, in a game already split into three factions, I don't have to have nine characters to fly all of the ships I want to. The fact that my Engineer flies mainly escorts and does effectively in them is great. He's not a "tank", he's a guy that's good at fixing stuff -- that fits Star Trek so much better.
The "trinity" exists in this game...on the ground, where you only have your career-specific skills. In space, your captain's bringing their expertise (career-specific abilities) to their crew (BOFF abilities). It's a really nice system, I don't understand why anyone would want to get rid of it or pigeon hole captains into only flying the class of ship that matches their "role"...
It could use with some tweaks here and there, it's far from perfect - but tweaking stuff is far different than those two somewhat complaints that contradict each other that we see, eh?
Some tweaking - definitely....lots of tweaking here and there. Not homogenization - but some balancing and some content...eh?
I dont understand this post. So basically you want to have the chance to deal the same or more damage than your tactical.. i wonder, people still dont get that science is not for damage. A tactical will ALWAYS be the class which more damage inflicts. It doesnt matter the equipment you have in your science. If by now you dont know this.. well... i dont know wat to think.. if you want to use your science toon the same way as your tactical.. there is your problem.
Command
Operations (Engineering, Tactical, & Security)
Science (Science & Medical)
Police Officer
Firefighter
Paramedic
Receptionist
Administrator
Doctor/Nurse
Where the trinity occurs naturally...cause it is a natural thing.
Or they just didn't force the nonsense of the MMO Trinity on the naturally occurring trinity.
Which do not have the issue of the MMO Trinity? Or are you just talking about Fantasy MMOs there?
Yep...watching Star Trek...which came before RPGs and MMOs. Which was based on archetypes that existed before Star Trek. Things that I guess you feel pollute thousands of years of literature...because they're following something that didn't come for thousands of years later.
Attack pattern alpha is kind of odd too if you think about it. Surely it's your helmsman and tactical officers that matter with stuff like that; not the Captain. Are there supposed to be attack patterns that aren't stored in ship computers, that only a select few tactical officers are ever told about in secret? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense really.
Still, it's a game. Gameplay before all else I suppose.