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What is your beef with the Bortasqu' Cryptic?
mimey2
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
(Sure it took the feds a long time to have the Galaxy get any kind of change, but hey, I figure at least I'll vent a bit, even if nothing comes of it. :P)
So, as is commonly known, the Bortasqu'...ain't that great for a Klingon ship. Hell, it is pretty much the reason (even if they didn't outright say it) why the Klingons didn't get a new ship until the Mogh.
I would say it is still got some very VERY big weak points though, even in today's game. Now don't misunderstand, it has gotten better. Stuff like the turn rate changes, cruiser commands, etc have all helped it out. However, anything that helps out the Bortasqu' also helps out all other ships as well, so relatively speaking it is on the same level as it was, just with updated stuff.
That said, I do feel the ship has some problems that it deserves to have addressed:
1. Turn rate.
It's simply far too low. I know it's a big ship, I know it's supposed to be slow. But unlike it's comparison in the Odyssey, there is no 'Saucer separation' to help remove a lot of it's bulk and go faster. At least a +1 in turn would help a lot.
2. Shields.
The Bortasqu' has only a 1 shield modifier. Which, while that is a common modifier for most cruisers, I don't think that the Bortasqu' of all things should only have the 'average' level shields. I can understand NOT making it match the Ody's 1.15, but at least a 1.05 or 1.1 would help make it's shields feel a bit less squishy.
3. The cloak.
I'm not asking for a battle cloak or anything. All I ask for this is that it be given the same basic level of stealth as any other ship. Whatever choices or balancing this was done for in the past, I really, REALLY don't think applies anymore. Not in today's game.
So what do you all think? I feel that's a fair proposition. Mostly just a case of changing a few numbers around. The ship in most other aspects has gotten better through some of those things mentioned at first, but some areas just feel overly weak because of old, now unnecessary choices.
So, as is commonly known, the Bortasqu'...ain't that great for a Klingon ship. Hell, it is pretty much the reason (even if they didn't outright say it) why the Klingons didn't get a new ship until the Mogh.
I would say it is still got some very VERY big weak points though, even in today's game. Now don't misunderstand, it has gotten better. Stuff like the turn rate changes, cruiser commands, etc have all helped it out. However, anything that helps out the Bortasqu' also helps out all other ships as well, so relatively speaking it is on the same level as it was, just with updated stuff.
That said, I do feel the ship has some problems that it deserves to have addressed:
1. Turn rate.
It's simply far too low. I know it's a big ship, I know it's supposed to be slow. But unlike it's comparison in the Odyssey, there is no 'Saucer separation' to help remove a lot of it's bulk and go faster. At least a +1 in turn would help a lot.
2. Shields.
The Bortasqu' has only a 1 shield modifier. Which, while that is a common modifier for most cruisers, I don't think that the Bortasqu' of all things should only have the 'average' level shields. I can understand NOT making it match the Ody's 1.15, but at least a 1.05 or 1.1 would help make it's shields feel a bit less squishy.
3. The cloak.
I'm not asking for a battle cloak or anything. All I ask for this is that it be given the same basic level of stealth as any other ship. Whatever choices or balancing this was done for in the past, I really, REALLY don't think applies anymore. Not in today's game.
So what do you all think? I feel that's a fair proposition. Mostly just a case of changing a few numbers around. The ship in most other aspects has gotten better through some of those things mentioned at first, but some areas just feel overly weak because of old, now unnecessary choices.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.pwlaughingtrendy wrote:I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
Post edited by mimey2 on
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Just because something says "dual cannons" on it doesn't mean you have to actually use cannons.
These two I don't have a problem with. And add in "Attract Fire", because I don't give a TRIBBLE what kind of cruiser Cryptic thinks the Bort is. They built the Klingons a Starfleet-style engi/tac broadside cruiser, not a battlecruiser, and they should own up to it already.
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In all seriousness, you have to do some crazy things to get the Bortasqu' to try and work as a cannon boat, but since they added the Fleet Mine consoles, it's become a bit easier to have Resistance AND Turn-rate in the same Engineering slot.
You'll probably also need the Tachyokinetic and Hydrodynamic console as well at the Subspace Jump.
So, you're looking at maybe 3 Tac consoles and 1 actual Engineering console if you use the 3 set pieces + 3 Universal (Hydrodynamic, Tachyokinetic, Subspace Jump) to get it up to almost reasonable levels
The shield thing...nah, leave it's shielding where it is and give it a bigger hull.
The cloaking, yeah I understand why it has a sub-standard cloak lore-wise, but not game-wise, since there are so, so many more ships that are much deadlier coming out of cloaking.
I disagree with this, purely because like the Odyssey is supposed to be the pinnacle of Starfleet Cruiserhood, the Bortas'qu is supposed to be the pinnacle of Klingon Battlecruiserhood. Based on literally every other comparison between equivalents in the two factions' respective cruiser lineups (Ambassador and Kamarag, Galaxy and Negh'var, etc.), the Bortas'qu should be the better turner of the two.
Personally I think the Bortas'qu should have had a turn rate of 7 or 7.5 - better than the Odyssey, but still significantly lower than the nearest battlecruisers.
I also don't think the use of dual cannons for this ship should be dismissed as irrelevant - the ship's console set is very much focused on forward firepower, not broadsides. Even if the actual utility of said consoles is debatable, one would think they indicate how the ship's designers intended for it to play.
I'd say that even in today's STO for my, probably weird:D, playstyle it's one of the best ships in STO if not the best.
Personally I wouldn't want them to mess with it, it's perfect for me - and I wouldn't want for her to end with a lousy hangar as well. :rolleyes:
Either by making weapons with [Arc] mods, so the Dual Cannons go up to 90 degree.
Or by making [RNG] (Range) mods, increasing the weapons distance by 2km per [RNG] mod as well as lessening the energy drop off, like the Long-Range Tetryon Cannon from the Lobi store, allowing massive ships like the Bortasqu to perform akin to a siege weapon, meaning they wouldn't have to turn as much the further back they are from the target.
Not sure I care about number 1 but I agree with the rest. I mean dang the Scimitar has freakin' Battle Cloak, a Hangar Bay, Shields while cloaked, and Cloak Barrage... So I do not think giving the Bortasqu' Normal Klingon Cloak is going to be a huge issue.
Its very slow turn rate and that shield modifier, combined altogether, are perhaps its weakest point.
Although it's got 5 tac consoles : let us not forget that.
Still, we can't certainly say that the revamped Galaxy is OP.
This. At least the Odyssey's saucer separation is a useful console to have on the ship (and work bees, if the Science Odyssey is set up as a team healer).
Subspace snare works unreliably - might as well have Subspace Jump instead of that.
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I do not know how the devs imagined that we would play a bortasqu with single cannons and turrets back? Such a build would give a lot less damage than classically beamboat. But I can imagine how would the devs convince the players that it played a more - dual cannons turret (dmg like dual cannons but 360° , of course this powerfull thing playable only on battlecruisers).
That could be a big damage from the front , but together DPS should not as high because it takes a long time to turn into the correct position.
So, Although a Bortasqu set is in my garage , I prefer to use Mogh for better turn rate and 5/3 weapons or Hirogen apex for much better shields and useable console.
to do so I have to run my bort with all fleet rcs, the tachyokinetic and hydrodynamic on top of a2d and the cruiser command to get 29 to 31 degree turn
I would kill for more turn and a bigger shield mod - As to a hangar, it'd make no sense due to how big the hosus is
If anything, I would like a vector system, allowing you to fly as either the hosus or the bort (the one not being flown being backup)..but thats just my wild fantasy
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The disruptor auto cannon is very under powered. It misses a lot and can interrupted by photonic Shockwave, weapon offline proc (extremely common), enemy ships leaving the tiny arc. It makes me sad when the auto cannon fires 2 shots then go to cool down.
My ideas on how to fix it:
Option 1: Maybe give the auto cannon ammunition before going to cool down (like omega plasma torpedo). Give the auto-cannon 24 shots instead of 12.
Option 2: Allow the auto-cannon console to act as a 'Very heavy Hexa cannon' (aka 6 barreled weapon) . Yes, make it a forward weapon that uses a console slot. Don't know if that's possible, but it could help the bortasqu a lot. 'Cannon rapid fire' can buff it. (Weapon is no longer an activation power.)
Subspace snare is not good when everything in the game counters teleporting. Long cool down for no reason. When it's powering up you can't act or use bridge officer powers-- A very big weakness.
My ideas on how to fix it:
Option 1: Make the teleporting instant. (Everyone and their mother uses 'polarized hull' and 'Attack pattern Omega'. Don't see why a 5 minute console is so easy to counter.)
Option 2: Lower the cool down to 2 minutes :P
Option 3: If you fail to teleport a target, console goes to a 20 second cool down instead of 5 minutes. Might take serious coding.
As for the bortasqu's cloaking, it's horrible. Players can see me 8km away. Everyone can, not just science ships. The turn rate is laughable as stated in other posts. I thought the Bortasqu was KDF's Flagship. It about time it's upgraded to Flagship status. "All ships stats are subject to change" --Cryptic--. Just make up some lie saying KDF stole a romulan battlecloak system and installed it on the bortasqu'. Bam! Battle cloak.
Okay, if you really want to use your forward gun arc, try my D'D dual beam build (they can fit the same boff layout). Hint: You're still going to be hitting with your broadside most of the time, just like if you were flying a Starfleet beam cruiser, but you'll have better spike damage when you bring your bow around. (And yes, when I last posted I forgot I had a tach converter on the D'D. But at the moment I'm still missing the two RCS consoles listed on the build and it does just fine anyway.)
I don't care what you do to it, you are not going to get combat-effective DHC use out of a Bort, so play to its strengths. If Cryptic was actually interested in making a ship that was "the pinnacle of Klingon Battlecruiserhood", the Klingon flagship would be something smaller like a Mogh or a Tor'Kaht, not a siege dreadnought like the Bort.
And by the way, OP, the "revamp" the Galaxy got barely even qualifies for the broadest possible definition of the term. The only ship they actually changed was the DN when the ship people actually wanted fixed was the Gal-R. Just the Mirror Negh/Kamarag-R boff layout on the Gal-R would've done the trick, but Cryptic apparently still thinks having that many engi powers is actually worth something (hint: unless there's a drastic shift in the metagame to where it isn't a damage race, it's not). And then, having made an insultingly small concession to the GCS fans, they immediately decide it's a good idea to kick us in the collective balls by giving everybody a f*cking cruise liner that outguns it.
I wouldn't hold my breath for getting any intelligent improvements to the Bort. Except maybe a hangar bay, since that seems to be the trendy thing. :P
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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I have to agree. My free vanity bortaS (sans the "qu") is/was extremely deadly mounting cannons and DBBs, wrecking anything in her path. She barely moves, but she doesn't need to. My Klingon currently has a Mogh though and I'm still playing around with that, but I do miss the big bortaS a little bit
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Well, the bridge is in a non-existent position and it really needs a little more light. Other than that, I agree, it works quite well as a beam boat if you know what you are doing.
The console set could use some buffing to bring it up to match other 3 pack sets like the Vesta or the Scimitar but that is more of a nitpick, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
Flown it with most builds you could have for the ship. Pure beams, DBB/BA mix, Single cannons/turrets, DHC/turrets.
To address some things that have been mentioned:
1. Turn rate: I can understand why most don't mind this, with all the improvements that turn has gotten. I would still like it bumped a little though.
2. Shields: Anyone worth their salt flying this is gonna pull some aggro with how much damage this ship can pump out. Having only a 1 shield modifier does really show itself after a time of taking so many hits. At least a 1.05 would be something.
3. Cloak: Yeah, pretty much a PvP-only reason here. But it does matter. I mean, there are SO many ships that get away scott-free, yet are massive monsters in size (read: Romulan ships), yet don't suffer this same penalty? I think at least giving it the normal level of stealth would improve this, it's just an unnecessary weakness anymore. If they need a lore reason, say something like 'The recent improvements in cloaking technology, along with the new treaty with the Romulan Republic has helped enhance the Bortasqu's cloak' or something.
4. Inertia: Eh...kinda don't mind this one. Power sliding is a good way of using what you have to get weapons on a target. Especially if you are using DHCs.
5. Consoles: Yeah...they do kinda suck. The Hoh'sus is just another dumb pet. Subspace Snare either is resisted by players with common abilities, or by NPCs who you cannot teleport but you would want to. The Autocannon I am more ok with, as it does have the unique advantage of being treated like a normal weapon while it is firing, though I wouldn't be against more damage.
6. Hanger: Oh god I hope not.
What I dislike the most about it is the inertia, it's got the lowest inertia value among all STO ships. That makes it terrible to actually move. However most battlecruisers tend to have very low inertia values. If you wanna keep it as a battlecruiser, it should however get more turn.
And speaking of shields, yes, the 1.0 modifier doesn't make that much sense as it's supposed to be pretty much a fleet level ship. Fleet Battlecruisers (or even simple cruisers that it resembles more) have 1.1 mods.
I believe the shields should get upped (at least to 1.05 symbolically). And then it should finally be decided if it's supposed to be a battlecruiser or a (FED style) cruiser. If the former, give it more turn (I believe 7 turn rate isn't too much to ask, looking at you, Scimitar). If the latter, give it the fourth cruiser command, perhaps more inertia (maybe even ditch the dual cannon capacity for clarity sake and make the shields 1.1).
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The Consoles are worthless with the Disruptor Autocannon being the only worthy thing.
It functions better as a beamboat.
Once I accepted these, the Bortasqu' shines more. And the only one I will ever use in today's game is the Command version with Sensor Analysis. Everything else is junk.
What I wish for all these neat little special "Can only be used on certain ship" consoles, is that they were built in. Which would make each of these ships special.
As it is the powers that be have decided to give us a huge amount of almost 'Must Slot" Universal consoles, making the special consoles ships come with Not worth there space. I wish the Ho'Sus pet was built in, the auto cannon, etc. Just like the Fed Gal-X Lance. The Garumba, etc.
That makes those ships special, Turning Unique abilities into Removable Items is what kills the uniqueness in all these ships. Escpecially when so many of them are 2-3 Piece sets. It's Idiotic.
That's just my 2 cents.
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Honestly, I'm a fan of consistency...and well...the Dreadnought bit is not really consistent, and I wish it were. I wish things were more defined.
Odyssey...a Dreadnought Cruiser? Sometimes. Most of the time? Star Cruiser, no? Variants of Star Cruisers.
Bortas/Bortasqu'...Dreadnought Cruiser? Sometimes. Most of the time? Battle Cruiser, no? Variants of Battle Cruisers.
Vo'Quv...Dreadnought? Sometimes. Most of the time? Carrier, no? Variants of Carriers.
The KDF do not have a Dreadnought Cruiser. Then again, the only two Dreadnought Cruisers for players are the Galaxy-X and the Bulwark. There are Dreadnought Warbirds for the Romulans and the Dreadnought Carrier with the JHDC. Those aren't Dreadnought Cruisers though - they're not sporting the two Cruiser Commands that Dreadnoughts do.
So in looking to slap a hangar on it to make it a Dreadnought Cruiser...what would be given up in exchange?
+ Hangar & Attract Fire
- Strategic Maneuvering & Shield Frequency Modulation
Have to say, I couldn't see Bortasqu' pilots being happy with that trade...
That's why I mentioned the Odyssey first, heh. I'd like the KDF to have a Dreadnought Cruiser (have even mentioned that 3pack of the Balaur/Ravager/Warbarge)...don't think the Bortasqu' should be that boat though.
I would hate this change, I don't want them to slap a hanger on it and think it makes things better, the problem is with the consoles and the stats like turn, shields, and stealth. It already gives up a cruiser command, I don't want to see any of the other 3 go either, I use them all a lot.
I would also of preferred it if we got a Negh'var overhaul that comes with the pods seen in DS9 rather than the auto cannon, its a bit of a pain to get it to cycle fully as most smaller ships just move out the way.
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Then the Romulans happened.
Proposed buffs:
1. Shield mod: It's a fleet-level ship, so I think a 1.1 would be fair.
2. Turn rate/Inertia: I think increasing the inertia to 25-30 and buffing the base turn rate to 6-7 would be sufficient. Still power sliding like any good BC can.
3. Cloak: Crappiest cloak in the game. Not a stealth expert, but stealth values could be increased? Or at least give it a battlecloak.
4. Hull: Maybe an extra 2k base hull? This thing is supposed to be more or less made of armor. I like the addition of passive resists too.
5. Consoles: The disruptor autocannon could do more damage. The Ho'sus AI is terrible (front row seats to warp core breaches anyone?) and subspace snare is kind of "meh" overall.
KDF Tac: Bortasqu' Tactical
Fed Tac: Fleet Gal-X
Keep those big guns a-thunderin'
Here's the thing:
Cryptic has no clue what the term "Battleship" or "Dreadnought" means and what it implies. They throw the term "Dreadnought" around to supposedly mean the real life implications and make it sell. But the stats in the game are anything but.
The Galaxy-X "Dreadnought" is nothing more than a Fleet version of the Lv40 Assault Cruiser.
The Monbosh "Battleship" is essentially nothing more than a reskinned Fleet Vor'Cha. So much so that Cryptic forgot to remove the Vor'Cha's standard cloak when they released the ship when LOR went live, and had to patch it out.
They throw the term "Dreadnought" around to hopefully make it sell better.
"OHHHH, a Dreadnought! This has to be big and bad! Because it's called DREADNOUGHT!"
But anyone that can look at the stats and see the true picture knows better.
The only big ship in STO that has any right to be called "Dreadnought" is the Scimitar.