You don't think other factions need ships?
Your analysis shows that the Feds need another ship?
What's funny is that your attempt to shame the OP for wanting something only serves to make YOU more bitter. How about instead saying something like "yeah, a lot of roles still need t be filled in all factions"?
Three out of four of those are lobi ships available to everyone, and the Atrox is not a Starfleet design. It's a donation from a member planet that decided to keep independent space warfare capability instead of having their forces absorbed into Starfleet. Starfleet designs are flying spoons, not giant blue TRIBBLE.
(I'm not actually arguing for or against, just explaining the logic.)
You should read Federation: The First 100 Years. Goes into detail as to why Starfleet ships tended to use superstructures designed by Human corporations. Also shows that Andorian, Vulcan etc. built ships are still Starfleet.
Can't find the link, but yes, CBS nixed the concept of a 2-hanger based design. Full reason why was not given, but it's been mentioned multiple times by the devs.
And they are right.
The odd part about this is that carriers in space are a joke for all practical reasons. While the video game mechanics make them viable, the reality is quite the opposite.
1.) defensive technology can deal with slow moving fighters, even today. Point defense is a reality.
2.) as offensive platforms they can't carry anything significant.
3.) their defenses cannot withstand the destructive firepower of a starship. Pilots are expensive.
Yes, 'fighters' could play a role but more likely they would be for scouting, ground support, patrol or area denial operations. But frankly runabouts are better suited for longer term missions.
There's precedence in Next Gen indicating they pose no significant threat and with rare exception they are not used anywhere in the series. Small Fed patrol craft were decimated by the borg on Best of Both Worlds part II, and well... i can't remember other fighters that were ever used....
The canon exceptions - Peregrine shuttles & Barojan Interceptors in DS9 and Scorpions in Nemesis - where the creation of plot points exclusively. Peregrines were refit civilian craft by the Maquis.
Peregrines used in Sacrifice of Angels were if anything, a desperate act on the part of the federation and a tactic only. Or an incredibly bad plot point.
I concede that because of this, the Federation could have and use fighters. But this would be role-based support, and not a primary tool against starships.
Jem'Hadar Bugs are not fighters, but rather small highly effective escorts.
Runabouts, Warp shuttles and Cutters were role-specific support craft.
Federation fighters and all fighters in general for the most part have been part of non-canon game and book creations. The lexicon on non-canon include: Bajoran Raider; Breen; Cardassian fighters & Hideki class; Fed Interceptors, McCall & Valkyrie classes; Orion Interceptors; Romulan Gladius, Scorpion and Interceptors; Talaxian fighters; and a Vulcan fighter.
So no, I don't see CBS allowing full carriers for the federation, unless someone sneaks them into the next series or movie.
My Two Bits,
Admiral Thrax
----
Peregrine Class
[MB] The Peregrine-class was a type of shuttlecraft, originally employed as a courier vessel by the Federation. The Maquis appropriated several Peregrine-class ships and used them during their insurrection against the Cardassian Union.
[MA] The designation "Peregrine-class" was only mentioned in "Heart of Stone", where the design was not seen. Star Trek Online identifies this as the class designation of the Federation attack fighter. The fact that the ship was referred to as a former courier ship modified by the Maquis, would support the association.
So, the Peregrine is little more than a courier shuttle, refit with additional weapons.
So 'no' not a fighter.
Scorpion Class
The Scorpion-class vessels were small attack fighters stored aboard the Reman warbird Scimitar in 2379.
When Captain Jean-Luc Picard was captured and taken aboard the Scimitar by Praetor Shinzon, the captain and Data used a Scorpion-class vessel to escape, taking the fighter through the Scimitar's corridors when the shuttlebay doors were sealed to prevent them making a more direct exit. Although he initially found the craft difficult to maneuver, he eventually managed to drive the vessel through a window located in Shinzon's representative chamber and escape into space, where the craft was beamed aboard the USS Enterprise-E.
[MB] David Mack's non-canon "Twilight's Wrath" short story in the Tales of the Dominion War anthology suggests the Scorpion-class was already in service by the Dominion War.
The Scorpion-class was capable of both carrier-based and independent operation and was capable of atmospheric flight. The model(s) in service by the 2400s were warp-capable and possessed a cloaking device
The "pure carrier" for Starfleet doesn't fit for a couple reasons. First of all, what would the Federation launch as Frigates? While the image of a Starfleet ship launching a squadron of Defiants is indeed badass (and horrifying for everyone else), it doesn't really fit Starfleet, and Starfleet doesn't really have anything that fits into that same niche as the Bird of Prey.
Second reason is that Starfleet is thematically still inspired by classic "ships of the line" and the Age of Sail crossed with World War II submarines. Sending out swarms of fighters isn't really their style.
Thirdly, Star Trek fighters are big. They've got more in common with a World War II PT Boat in both use and scale than an X-Wing or P-51, and tend to be used similarly. But they tend to get torn up pretty badly if they're caught out in the open or without support of heavier warships to keep their targets' big guns from swatting them (and phasers are extremely accurate weapons).
Now, that all said, I could imagine a Federation "carrier" as more like a mobile repair yard or mini-starbase or fleet super-tender. This is a support vessel, not a ship of the line.
Federation fighters and all fighters in general for the most part have been part of non-canon game and book creations. The lexicon on non-canon include: Bajoran Raider; Breen; Cardassian fighters & Hideki class; Fed Interceptors, McCall & Valkyrie classes; Orion Interceptors; Romulan Gladius, Scorpion and Interceptors; Talaxian fighters; and a Vulcan fighter.
So no, I don't see CBS allowing full carriers for the federation, unless someone sneaks them into the next series or movie.
This is incorrect. Bajoran Raiders appeared in 3 star trek episodes. Once in TNG "Preemptive Strike" and twice in DS9 "The Siege" and "Shadows and Symbols". This makes Bajoran Raiders solidly part of Star Trek canon.
I would rather have a new racial Carrier than a Starfleet designed one, myself. A Starfleet ship is just going to be a new saucer with some nacelles stuck to it... I would rather see something new and creative. Let the Cryptic art team come up with something cool, like a Bajoran Carrier.
This is incorrect. Bajoran Raiders appeared in 3 star trek episodes. Once in TNG "Preemptive Strike" and twice in DS9 "The Siege" and "Shadows and Symbols". This makes Bajoran Raiders solidly part of Star Trek canon.
I would rather have a new racial Carrier than a Starfleet designed one, myself. A Starfleet ship is just going to be a new saucer with some nacelles stuck to it... I would rather see something new and creative. Let the Cryptic art team come up with something cool, like a Bajoran Carrier.
Except for some people that does not solve the "I want a starfleet designed carrier" issue.
No surprise to open this thread and see it's already been swamped with vociferous complaining from the loud KDF minority...
Anyways the OP is right. The Federation could use a true carrier, but I think the'true Fed carrier should just be a re-imagining of a ship that's already in the game: It's time to give the Jupiter a look. Clean up the model a bit, give it a shiny new texture, and redesign it as a massive carrier. It certainly looks the part, why not have it play the part?
No surprise to open this thread and see it's already been swamped with vociferous complaining from the loud KDF minority...
Anyways the OP is right. The Federation could use a true carrier, but I think the'true Fed carrier should just be a re-imagining of a ship that's already in the game: It's time to give the Jupiter a look. Clean up the model a bit, give it a shiny new texture, and redesign it as a massive carrier. It certainly looks the part, why not have it play the part?
As stated by someone else: CBS nixed the concept of a 2-hanger based design. Full reason why was not given, but it's been mentioned multiple times by the devs.
This is the reason we can't have nice things. Some stuck up elitists take it upon themselves to decide what is "canon" and what is not, and cite their circular logic to cheat us out of a decent game.:rolleyes:
Fighters are big part of Star Trek, appearing countless times in episodes of all 5 Star Trek TV series. Yes, all 5 "canon" series, and yes, that includes Voyager and Enterprise. The fact you don't like them matters as little to the rest of us as the whiskers on my pit bull's rear/front end.:D
But anyway, we should have Jupiter class with Aquarius pets. No, Jupiter is not canon, but it's been in sto as a npc starfleet carrier since beta days. It's about time players are given access.
Then I guess you should also agree the Romulans need a pure carrier right? Even more so than feds since we don't have the wide array of carriers they have?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Then I guess you should also agree the Romulans need a pure carrier right? Even more so than feds since we don't have the wide array of carriers they have?
What wide array of carriers? If you include lobi ships, Romulans have access to them too. But yes, Romulans do need a real carrier. While at that, Scimitar should have its hangar removed.;)
What wide array of carriers? If you include lobi ships, Romulans have access to them too. But yes, Romulans do need a real carrier. While at that, Scimitar should have its hangar removed.;)
Lets see...you have the Gal-X, HEC, Vesta, and the Atrox...double the amount of Romulan ones.
You have a Eng based, Tac based, Sci based, and Sci based full carrier...all we have is two Tac heavy ones...far as I'm concerned Feds have a wide array compared to Romulans.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
What's funny is that your attempt to shame the OP for wanting something only serves to make YOU more bitter. How about instead saying something like "yeah, a lot of roles still need t be filled in all factions"?
"Shame"? "Bitter"? Please stop analysing other peoples posts for motivation.
What's funny is that your attempt to shame the OP for wanting something only serves to make YOU more bitter. How about instead saying something like "yeah, a lot of roles still need t be filled in all factions"?
Except what roles do feds need? They have every single little tiny thing that the other factions don't have...heck the only thing they might not have is a frigate pet.
Feds don't need any roles filled...they have it all already.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Not everyone can access the Lobi store ships
As to what a Fed designed carrier should look like... Give us a 24th/25th Century refit Ark Royal class or something. SFC 2 had some fun times with carriers.
As stated by someone else: CBS nixed the concept of a 2-hanger based design. Full reason why was not given, but it's been mentioned multiple times by the devs.
1-hangar hybrids, however, is okay.
Yeah, starfleet pilot using Undines ship is fine, but starfleet carrier ? Wow, that's lore breaking !
Except what roles do feds need? They have every single little tiny thing that the other factions don't have...heck the only thing they might not have is a frigate pet.
Feds don't need any roles filled...they have it all already.
The fact that feds have the most ships is as indisputable, as it isirrelevant. Most fed ships are OLD. They are far, far behind the current ship power meta. Even the newest patrol escort iteration is not up to the powers and abilities of the contemporary ships.
Because nothing is as fair a comparison as that between the Galaxy-R and the Scimitar. Its an extreme example but it highlights how BAD the low end fed ships are.
The fact that feds have the most ships is as indisputable, as it isirrelevant. Most fed ships are OLD. They are far, far behind the current ship power meta. Even the newest patrol escort iteration is not up to the powers and abilities of the contemporary ships.
Because nothing is as fair a comparison as that between the Galaxy-R and the Scimitar. Its an extreme example but it highlights how BAD the low end fed ships are.
The Scimitar is not a good point of comparison.
Seriously, you want Picard's ship on the TV show to out gun the Scimitar?
As I've said, Starfleet players don't want to be Picard or Kirk. They want to be Shinzon or Khan.
I have never understood the logic that fighters existing in Star Trek automatically points to the existence of carriers. Pretty much every large ship in service during the TNG era had the hanger and cargo space to transport a large number of these fighters without the need of dedicated carriers and the balance of the fighters would be coming from forward staging points.
At one point I too would be arguing for diversity of technology for factions, that not everything needs to be the same for everyone, but with the introduction of the Undine squishy ships I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless to argue for anything making sense. Cryptic has already completely bastardized the license so what's the point?
Klingons may well be the faction of choice for carriers in game, even though in universe they have no greater claim to them than anyone else, but frankly their ships are appallingly ugly and sometimes I don't really feel like getting down in the grunge with the Klingons. For the Federation the Atrox may fill the role of a Federation carrier but I find it's appearance too phallic and far too simplistic and undetailed for it's size, so I can't say I wouldn't mind seeing a full carrier designed along traditional Starfleet lines.
As for the OPs image, that is a terrible Sovereign kitbash.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
What a day would it be without someone demanding a new fed ship.
Of course it's not like the federation shipyard does have a hundred ships, just 98 (with all the refit, fleet stuff, small crafts not included). Why should Cryptic add ships to the Klingons (74) or the Romulans (43!) at all when clearly the federation is in dire need of playable ships......:P
what a day it would be if some KDF jerk wasn't whining about someone wanting a Federation Carrier.
As I've said, Starfleet players don't want to be Picard or Kirk. They want to be Shinzon or Khan.
STO is a combat game. Asking players to accept a suboptimal playstyle for the sake of "immersion" or "fluff"is ...well, words escape me. I cannot really say how wrong of a concept that is.
The fact that feds have the most ships is as indisputable, as it isirrelevant. Most fed ships are OLD. They are far, far behind the current ship power meta. Even the newest patrol escort iteration is not up to the powers and abilities of the contemporary ships.
Because nothing is as fair a comparison as that between the Galaxy-R and the Scimitar. Its an extreme example but it highlights how BAD the low end fed ships are.
Lets see...is the Vesta obsolete? It's the strongest Sci ship in the game and the devs even said they're going to add to it eventually. The HEC doesn't seem very old to me...
Feds have the biggest selection of 5 tac console escorts, KDF doesn't even have one. Feds have the biggest oh ships in general...don't try and give me this bs about how they're old...besides the Mogh and fleet ships you want to give me the number of new ships the KDF have gotten in 2 years? You want to talk old...old is a fleet of ships that haven't gotten a single ship added in years...now that's OLD!
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Lets see...is the Vesta obsolete? It's the strongest Sci ship in the game and the devs even said they're going to add to it eventually. The HEC doesn't seem very old to me...
Feds have the biggest selection of 5 tac console escorts, KDF doesn't even have one. Feds have the biggest oh ships in general...don't try and give me this bs about how they're old...besides the Mogh and fleet ships you want to give me the number of new ships the KDF have gotten in 2 years? You want to talk old...old is a fleet of ships that haven't gotten a single ship added in years...now that's OLD!
now now, the romulans have the same number of 5 tac ships, with the fleet ha'feh, fleet dhelan, fleet ar'kif and scimitar and every single one of them is a great ship, meanwhile the feds have the kumari which is almost unusable due bad boff stations(why so many tacs?), the others are good though(the defiant is a good ganker in PvP but it wastes a slot due to need for cloaking console), also klingons DO have a 5 tac ship, which is the tactical bortasqu, but i agree, klingons IMO should get
1 - 5 forward weapon BoP with 4 tac consoles
2 - 5 tac console "escort carrier" raptor(making it the klingon armitage/ar'kif)
3 - 5 tac console fleet guramba
Comments
What's funny is that your attempt to shame the OP for wanting something only serves to make YOU more bitter. How about instead saying something like "yeah, a lot of roles still need t be filled in all factions"?
You should read Federation: The First 100 Years. Goes into detail as to why Starfleet ships tended to use superstructures designed by Human corporations. Also shows that Andorian, Vulcan etc. built ships are still Starfleet.
And they are right.
The odd part about this is that carriers in space are a joke for all practical reasons. While the video game mechanics make them viable, the reality is quite the opposite.
1.) defensive technology can deal with slow moving fighters, even today. Point defense is a reality.
2.) as offensive platforms they can't carry anything significant.
3.) their defenses cannot withstand the destructive firepower of a starship. Pilots are expensive.
Yes, 'fighters' could play a role but more likely they would be for scouting, ground support, patrol or area denial operations. But frankly runabouts are better suited for longer term missions.
There's precedence in Next Gen indicating they pose no significant threat and with rare exception they are not used anywhere in the series. Small Fed patrol craft were decimated by the borg on Best of Both Worlds part II, and well... i can't remember other fighters that were ever used....
The canon exceptions - Peregrine shuttles & Barojan Interceptors in DS9 and Scorpions in Nemesis - where the creation of plot points exclusively. Peregrines were refit civilian craft by the Maquis.
Peregrines used in Sacrifice of Angels were if anything, a desperate act on the part of the federation and a tactic only. Or an incredibly bad plot point.
I concede that because of this, the Federation could have and use fighters. But this would be role-based support, and not a primary tool against starships.
Jem'Hadar Bugs are not fighters, but rather small highly effective escorts.
Runabouts, Warp shuttles and Cutters were role-specific support craft.
Federation fighters and all fighters in general for the most part have been part of non-canon game and book creations. The lexicon on non-canon include: Bajoran Raider; Breen; Cardassian fighters & Hideki class; Fed Interceptors, McCall & Valkyrie classes; Orion Interceptors; Romulan Gladius, Scorpion and Interceptors; Talaxian fighters; and a Vulcan fighter.
So no, I don't see CBS allowing full carriers for the federation, unless someone sneaks them into the next series or movie.
My Two Bits,
Admiral Thrax
----
Peregrine Class
[MB] The Peregrine-class was a type of shuttlecraft, originally employed as a courier vessel by the Federation. The Maquis appropriated several Peregrine-class ships and used them during their insurrection against the Cardassian Union.
[MA] The designation "Peregrine-class" was only mentioned in "Heart of Stone", where the design was not seen. Star Trek Online identifies this as the class designation of the Federation attack fighter. The fact that the ship was referred to as a former courier ship modified by the Maquis, would support the association.
So, the Peregrine is little more than a courier shuttle, refit with additional weapons.
So 'no' not a fighter.
Scorpion Class
The Scorpion-class vessels were small attack fighters stored aboard the Reman warbird Scimitar in 2379.
When Captain Jean-Luc Picard was captured and taken aboard the Scimitar by Praetor Shinzon, the captain and Data used a Scorpion-class vessel to escape, taking the fighter through the Scimitar's corridors when the shuttlebay doors were sealed to prevent them making a more direct exit. Although he initially found the craft difficult to maneuver, he eventually managed to drive the vessel through a window located in Shinzon's representative chamber and escape into space, where the craft was beamed aboard the USS Enterprise-E.
[MB] David Mack's non-canon "Twilight's Wrath" short story in the Tales of the Dominion War anthology suggests the Scorpion-class was already in service by the Dominion War.
The Scorpion-class was capable of both carrier-based and independent operation and was capable of atmospheric flight. The model(s) in service by the 2400s were warp-capable and possessed a cloaking device
So yes, very much a fighter.
Second reason is that Starfleet is thematically still inspired by classic "ships of the line" and the Age of Sail crossed with World War II submarines. Sending out swarms of fighters isn't really their style.
Thirdly, Star Trek fighters are big. They've got more in common with a World War II PT Boat in both use and scale than an X-Wing or P-51, and tend to be used similarly. But they tend to get torn up pretty badly if they're caught out in the open or without support of heavier warships to keep their targets' big guns from swatting them (and phasers are extremely accurate weapons).
Now, that all said, I could imagine a Federation "carrier" as more like a mobile repair yard or mini-starbase or fleet super-tender. This is a support vessel, not a ship of the line.
This is incorrect. Bajoran Raiders appeared in 3 star trek episodes. Once in TNG "Preemptive Strike" and twice in DS9 "The Siege" and "Shadows and Symbols". This makes Bajoran Raiders solidly part of Star Trek canon.
I would rather have a new racial Carrier than a Starfleet designed one, myself. A Starfleet ship is just going to be a new saucer with some nacelles stuck to it... I would rather see something new and creative. Let the Cryptic art team come up with something cool, like a Bajoran Carrier.
Except for some people that does not solve the "I want a starfleet designed carrier" issue.
Anyways the OP is right. The Federation could use a true carrier, but I think the'true Fed carrier should just be a re-imagining of a ship that's already in the game: It's time to give the Jupiter a look. Clean up the model a bit, give it a shiny new texture, and redesign it as a massive carrier. It certainly looks the part, why not have it play the part?
As stated by someone else: CBS nixed the concept of a 2-hanger based design. Full reason why was not given, but it's been mentioned multiple times by the devs.
1-hangar hybrids, however, is okay.
Fighters are big part of Star Trek, appearing countless times in episodes of all 5 Star Trek TV series. Yes, all 5 "canon" series, and yes, that includes Voyager and Enterprise. The fact you don't like them matters as little to the rest of us as the whiskers on my pit bull's rear/front end.:D
But anyway, we should have Jupiter class with Aquarius pets. No, Jupiter is not canon, but it's been in sto as a npc starfleet carrier since beta days. It's about time players are given access.
What wide array of carriers? If you include lobi ships, Romulans have access to them too. But yes, Romulans do need a real carrier. While at that, Scimitar should have its hangar removed.;)
Lets see...you have the Gal-X, HEC, Vesta, and the Atrox...double the amount of Romulan ones.
You have a Eng based, Tac based, Sci based, and Sci based full carrier...all we have is two Tac heavy ones...far as I'm concerned Feds have a wide array compared to Romulans.
"Shame"? "Bitter"? Please stop analysing other peoples posts for motivation.
Except what roles do feds need? They have every single little tiny thing that the other factions don't have...heck the only thing they might not have is a frigate pet.
Feds don't need any roles filled...they have it all already.
As to what a Fed designed carrier should look like... Give us a 24th/25th Century refit Ark Royal class or something. SFC 2 had some fun times with carriers.
Another frisbee with sausages bolted on? No thanks.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
The fact that feds have the most ships is as indisputable, as it isirrelevant. Most fed ships are OLD. They are far, far behind the current ship power meta. Even the newest patrol escort iteration is not up to the powers and abilities of the contemporary ships.
Because nothing is as fair a comparison as that between the Galaxy-R and the Scimitar. Its an extreme example but it highlights how BAD the low end fed ships are.
The Scimitar is not a good point of comparison.
Seriously, you want Picard's ship on the TV show to out gun the Scimitar?
As I've said, Starfleet players don't want to be Picard or Kirk. They want to be Shinzon or Khan.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
At one point I too would be arguing for diversity of technology for factions, that not everything needs to be the same for everyone, but with the introduction of the Undine squishy ships I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless to argue for anything making sense. Cryptic has already completely bastardized the license so what's the point?
Klingons may well be the faction of choice for carriers in game, even though in universe they have no greater claim to them than anyone else, but frankly their ships are appallingly ugly and sometimes I don't really feel like getting down in the grunge with the Klingons. For the Federation the Atrox may fill the role of a Federation carrier but I find it's appearance too phallic and far too simplistic and undetailed for it's size, so I can't say I wouldn't mind seeing a full carrier designed along traditional Starfleet lines.
As for the OPs image, that is a terrible Sovereign kitbash.
Hey, don't shoot the messenger.
what a day it would be if some KDF jerk wasn't whining about someone wanting a Federation Carrier.
Threads with continual bickering in the IT forum that I moderate would have been locked by now.
STO is a combat game. Asking players to accept a suboptimal playstyle for the sake of "immersion" or "fluff"is ...well, words escape me. I cannot really say how wrong of a concept that is.
Lets see...is the Vesta obsolete? It's the strongest Sci ship in the game and the devs even said they're going to add to it eventually. The HEC doesn't seem very old to me...
Feds have the biggest selection of 5 tac console escorts, KDF doesn't even have one. Feds have the biggest oh ships in general...don't try and give me this bs about how they're old...besides the Mogh and fleet ships you want to give me the number of new ships the KDF have gotten in 2 years? You want to talk old...old is a fleet of ships that haven't gotten a single ship added in years...now that's OLD!
now now, the romulans have the same number of 5 tac ships, with the fleet ha'feh, fleet dhelan, fleet ar'kif and scimitar and every single one of them is a great ship, meanwhile the feds have the kumari which is almost unusable due bad boff stations(why so many tacs?), the others are good though(the defiant is a good ganker in PvP but it wastes a slot due to need for cloaking console), also klingons DO have a 5 tac ship, which is the tactical bortasqu, but i agree, klingons IMO should get
1 - 5 forward weapon BoP with 4 tac consoles
2 - 5 tac console "escort carrier" raptor(making it the klingon armitage/ar'kif)
3 - 5 tac console fleet guramba
And what a day it will be when Fed jerks stop trying to steal all of the KDF faction options and accept the game having more than their egos in mind.